TWD 5x15 "Try" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN*

[MinionZombie]

Please keep all talk of episode 5x15 "Try" specifically inside this thread.

If you have a theory for a following episode, please use the "spoiler tags" (visit the HPOTD FAQ to find out how to use them if you don't already know).

Similarly, if you're going to discuss plot points from the comic book, please use "spoiler tags" - not everyone is up-to-date on them, and some people don't read them at all.

Enjoy!


Episode 5.15: Try - When life within the walls begins to mimic life outside, the group realizes that sheltered life may not be possible. Will these setbacks break Rick?

Directed by: Michael E. Satrazemis
Written by: Angela Kang

http://c534909.r9.cf2.rackcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Walking-Dead-515-02.jpg

[facestabber]

Ugh not crazy Rick again. She's cute Rick but not worth the hassle.

Someone's gotta teach Michonne how to hold a gun. I'm glad she jacked Rick though.

[Harleydude666]

Ugh not crazy Rick again. She's cute Rick but not worth the hassle.

Someone's gotta teach Michonne how to hold a gun. I'm glad she jacked Rick though.

I don't think he's crazy, just common sense. Everything he said was right. He knows the rest of the crew wants to stay but he knows changes need to be made for that to happen. Yes, he looked crazy because he just got separated from a knocked down dragged out brawl, I think anyone would have had that reaction. I see your point about the girl but realize one thing, Rick sees Pete more than just an abuser more like a psychopath and Rick is a little unsure about things and he has Carol whispering in his ear during his weak moments. Everyone has relied on Rick for so long and he's the one forced to make the heavy decisions with all the life and death situations and deal with the aftermaths that he's just not going to take anymore crap and he doesn't care if you like it or not especially coming from these new people. And I don't blame him, Deanna fought to have them brought to the community and her actions are really swaying to have all the burdens put on Rick once again and he's finally having the attitude of my way or the highway

[MinionZombie]

To be fair, it's only been like a couple of months - at most - since the events of the Claimer and Terminus gangs, plus the compounded losses of Beth, Tyreese, and now Noah, and they've only just arrived in Alexandria. Like Glenn said 'we were almost out there too long', but I think their time out there has affected people in different ways and to different degrees. It's only quite recently in TWD time that Rick killed Joe with his bare teeth!

Rick understands the value of this place - they need to stay - and when you've got Deanna being all squinty-eyed and failing to act over Pete just because he's a surgeon (yes, a valuable skill in any world, especially the Post-ZA world, but the situation needs dealing with somehow for the sake of Jessie and Sam). Rick's battling with two sides of himself about how to deal with a situation, and regarding what's allowable in the post-ZA world ... we saw some glimpses of that throughout this episode (loved the bit where he told Pete to just keep walking and eye-effed the shit out of him :elol: ).

Also - that Nicholas guy - f*ck that guy. I see it was him who snatched Rick's gun ... but for what purpose? No doubt something nefarious and possible deadly ... that bastard. :shifty:

I reckon we'll get a reveal regarding this whole "W" business, especially after the escalation with the woman who was tied to a tree, in the season finale.

Finale Death Theory / The Severed Limbs in the Woods:

You know those limbs that Daryl and Aaron found - I don't know, but I had this terrible feeling they might belong to Morgan - the skin is black, there's a wedding ring on one of the hands, and a pair of sunglasses that look similar to ones he might have been wearing when we saw him last year.

I'm wondering if we'll get a flashback during the finale that'll show Morgan getting into trouble with whoever these "W" folks are ... I really hope not, but considering we've not seen him, and the extended running time, I just have a bad feeling about it! :eek:

[facestabber]

I'm not saying Rick is season 3 batshit loco. But drawing that revolver at that time is pretty crazy. Ok, maybe it's dumb/misguided/horrible judgement. It's drawing a line in the sand and has his family on the line. Rick is right about this weak society. But is method was way off. Pointing a gun at Deanna, though fun, is not a smart move.

So the King Co Sheriffs Dept didn't spend much time with control and arrest tactics. Hahaha. I'm very dissapointed in Ricks rather poor fighting skills. The Gov had him dead. But now a Sally-ass surgeon was doing quit well against him. Rick and Pete are basically having a dick measuring contest, winner take Jesse. Come on Rick, Jesse wasn't impressed by that performance. Additionally it's funny that Carol started this mess and just sat idly by. Maybe she just trusted Rick to win or didn't want to blow her cover. Fucking women can tear down a community without throwing a punch.
Minion I thought the same thing and hope that isn't the case.

[Staredge]

Having only gotten through the first 2 Compendia, I'm not fully caught up on the comic villians that are coming. Having heard of the Whisperers, and the Scavengers, and Negan, I did a little spoiling for myself and I have a couple of thoughts.

If the Whisperers are coming, (and someone online mentioned "Clear" and Morgan talking about people wearing dead men's faces) could the W carved in the forehead be there to allow them to know who is one of them, and who is an actual walker? Makes sense from a safety standpoint (just in case one gets a little too close), as well as being there for the planted Whisperers inside Alexandria (Enid??).

Not sure about the Scavengers being renamed the 'Wolves', and how carving a W is useful, beyond just being fun. Seems like that storyline got resolved fairly quickly, although it would make a good season finale.

- - - Updated - - -



So the King Co Sheriffs Dept didn't spend much time with control and arrest tactics. Hahaha. I'm very dissapointed in Ricks rather poor fighting skills. The Gov had him dead. But now a Sally-ass surgeon was doing quit well against him.


My thoughts exactly.

[AcesandEights]

An okay, but bit of a clunker episode. Somewhat necessary to set the table for the finale.


To be fair, it's only been like a couple of months - at most - since the events of the Claimer and Terminus gangs, plus the compounded losses of Beth, Tyreese, and now Noah, and they've only just arrived in Alexandria. Like Glenn said 'we were almost out there too long', but I think their time out there has affected people in different ways and to different degrees. It's only quite recently in TWD time that Rick killed Joe with his bare teeth!

Yeah, I don't quite understand how people are saying it doesn't make sense for Rick and Co. to be undergoing serious behavioral issues related to coping with their situation, given they've now had a moment to catch their breathes and reflect. That is when people often have the most difficult time coping. The fact is, Rick is in many ways correct, while also unable to reconcile the difference in mindsets of the Alexandrian's, as he is currently so far removed from that level of--for lack of a better term--pre-apocalypse outlook/values/societal expectations. He very much has a disconnect between his valid concerns and how to act in anyway deemed acceptable or approachable by the Alexandrain's to execute those ideas or convince the Alexandrian's of the necessity to confront these situations.

[Moon Knight]

What I really want to know is what Nicholas plans on doing with Rick's gun.

Looks like Rick's window theory was right all along.

I'm not really feeling Sasha's character anymore. It's just a bit too much but I understand why they write her this way. It just comes off really annoying. I would have had a damn heart attack if she would have gotten my Rosita killed.

I don't think Rick looked weaker because his fight with Pete wasn't one sided. Rick isn't perfect and I like how vulnerable he can be. Mistakes and all.

Michonne dropped my jaw to the ground.

I really like Glenn's character now more than ever. What he told douchebag Nicholas was excellent.

There sure has been a lot of "Red" this season hasn't there? Train Cars, Machete handles, the letter "A", and now balloons. Callback to "Clear"?

The balloon also represented Rick's feelings on three seperate stages in the episode. With the Baloon finally flying away as Rick loses his grip and unleashes his true feeling towards the Alexandrians.

Finally, Nine Inch Nails in the opener? Perfect.

[MinionZombie]

Minion I thought the same thing and hope that isn't the case.

Continuing my finale death theory:

On the one hand there's a "secret guest to be revealed" on next week's Talking Dead, which is often code for 'the person who dies in the episode' ... but then I looked back at 5x08 and Morgan wasn't wearing a wedding ring ... now:

1) Maybe that was just a costuming mistake.
2) Maybe Morgan did take his wedding ring off ... in which case, he either put it back on for some reason - OR - the severed limbs didn't belong to him.

I looked closer and I couldn't quite tell what the shade of the skin on the severed arms were. One set was definitely white, and the other seemed to be similar in skin tone to that of Morgan (again, comparing them to a close up in 5x08) ... ... and of course those sunglasses look awfully familiar ... I really hope not, but I'm fairly convinced Morgan's going to wind up as a limbless walker torso. They seemed to make a point of focusing in on that pair of hands (and sunglasses) quite particularly. :(



An okay, but bit of a clunker episode. Somewhat necessary to set the table for the finale.

Yeah, I don't quite understand how people are saying it doesn't make sense for Rick and Co. to be undergoing serious behavioral issues related to coping with their situation, given they've now had a moment to catch their breathes and reflect. That is when people often have the most difficult time coping. The fact is, Rick is in many ways correct, while also unable to reconcile the difference in mindsets of the Alexandrian's, as he is currently so far removed from that level of--for lack of a better term--pre-apocalypse outlook/values/societal expectations. He very much has a disconnect between his valid concerns and how to act in anyway deemed acceptable or approachable by the Alexandrain's to execute those ideas or convince the Alexandrian's of the necessity to confront these situations.

Yes, in some ways this was the 'calm before the storm' sort of episode, keeping us chilled for next week's extended finale, but there was some interesting character stuff going on.

They're all suffering from PTSD in various ways and to various extents. Sasha is handling it very badly, while Glenn and Maggie and Carl (for instance) are handling it quite well, whereas Rick is struggling - heck, the guy cried at getting a haircut ... just think of the pressure of being a leader of a group in that sort of scenario, the things you'd have to do and what a weight that would take on a person's soul ... you can't shrug that off easily (if ever?)

It's interesting to look at Daryl who was initially very resistant, but then found peace - but by leaving Alexandria to go out on runs, so his interaction with the town is limited, so that's his coping mechanism, and it harks back to Claimer Joe's speech about an 'outdoor cat pretending to be an indoor cat'.

I thought it was interesting what that Yvette Nicole Brown was saying on Talking Dead about Rick - that he was seeing Lori in Jessie, and seeking out something to fix, but didn't know how to go about it. When you think about it, he hasn't known love or a tender touch in that kind of way (not necessarily sex, but intimacy) in a very long time. Hell, his last few months with Lori were terribly strained (after her admission in Season 2 that she porked Shane) and all he managed was a long distance smile before everything went to shit in 3x04 - and ever since then he's been alone, and even though he got over the initial grief, there'll still be a lot of scars beneath the surface that haven't gone away (he's still wearing his wedding ring) ... then he arrives at this oasis in the midst of hell which resembles the pre-ZA life damn close, and there's this beautiful, caring, gentle woman who sees him as a man and not as the monster he considers himself to be (or is wrestling against deep inside) and, yeah, I'm not surprised he's a bit messed up in the head. Coming to that just weeks after evading a drawn out death at the hands of cannibals in a matter of weeks? No wonder he's a bit mixed up!

...

TWD 5x15 Memes:
http://deadshed.blogspot.co.uk/2015/03/crazy-rick-edition-walking-dead-5x15.html

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-oVnaIuKUUjE/VRBDaubuopI/AAAAAAAADxw/YfdxEX7q5vw/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_5_Carl_Enid_7_Minutes_Zomb ie_Heaven_Tree_5x15_DeadShed.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-qeJLYagdzUE/VRBDh6ZzBCI/AAAAAAAADyI/3jv9g3vGvvI/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_5_Meme_Crazy_Rick_Pete_Pon d_Eye_F_Keep_Walking_5x15_DeadShed.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-g-5I8tiJ4zc/VRBDc-FSrwI/AAAAAAAADx4/bPMuSlHtD24/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_5_Crazy_Rick_Grimes_Realis e_Sane_Everyone_Else_Nuts_2_5x15_DeadShed.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-x4jAbWHSnR4/VRBDebLPEpI/AAAAAAAADyA/_tEiS3PTZqc/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_5_Guess_Back_Crazy_Rick_Gr imes_Michowned_Michonne_5x15_DeadShed.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-9FPKr_ZZ-WE/VRBDkerr6XI/AAAAAAAADyY/ZNZEwUoGE7Q/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_5_Meme_Glenn_Nicholas_Week end_Warrior_Rambo_Let_Them_Keep_Talking_Anyway_5x1 5_DeadShed.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-pvoZFlT07e0/VRBDjVxjExI/AAAAAAAADyQ/z3DjQ6obC-I/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_5_Meme_Crazy_Rick_Versus_A lexandria_Unarmed_Cookies_Cocktail_Parties_5x15_De adShed.jpg


:)

[Harleydude666]

I'm not saying Rick is season 3 batshit loco. But drawing that revolver at that time is pretty crazy. Ok, maybe it's dumb/misguided/horrible judgement. It's drawing a line in the sand and has his family on the line. Rick is right about this weak society. But is method was way off. Pointing a gun at Deanna, though fun, is not a smart move.

So the King Co Sheriffs Dept didn't spend much time with control and arrest tactics. Hahaha. I'm very dissapointed in Ricks rather poor fighting skills. The Gov had him dead. But now a Sally-ass surgeon was doing quit well against him. Rick and Pete are basically having a dick measuring contest, winner take Jesse. Come on Rick, Jesse wasn't impressed by that performance. Additionally it's funny that Carol started this mess and just sat idly by. Maybe she just trusted Rick to win or didn't want to blow her cover. Fucking women can tear down a community without throwing a punch.
Minion I thought the same thing and hope that isn't the case.


Don't take this the wrong way but but you may be living in a little fantasy world regarding Rick and his fights. Shane, the Gov and Pete are much bigger than Rick physically. In the real world sometimes size and power do matter. Who says Pete is a Sally ass? He could have been a bad ass fighter or punk ass before he became a doctor. I know an account who used to work for me and he would have tanked most people. Rick is actually a pretty small guy and on top of that is very deficient in food and vitamins being on the road as long as he has. Looks like Pete besides his drinking has been eating ok in Fantasy Land.

[facestabber]

Don't take this the wrong way but but you may be living in a little fantasy world regarding Rick and his fights. Shane, the Gov and Pete are much bigger than Rick physically. In the real world sometimes size and power do matter. Who says Pete is a Sally ass? He could have been a bad ass fighter or punk ass before he became a doctor. I know an account who used to work for me and he would have tanked most people. Rick is actually a pretty small guy and on top of that is very deficient in food and vitamins being on the road as long as he has. Looks like Pete besides his drinking has been eating ok in Fantasy Land.

I won't take offense but it's what I do for a living. 16 years. I teach at our Academy control and arrest tactics ground fighting etc. I'm the last person to underestimate anyone. I am highlighting Ricks poor track record and not using the training and tools taught to him. Maybe it's the instructor in me wanting to see him succeed in these situations etc. but getting into an undisciplined scrap is something Rick would know is not the right way. But I get it. The dynamics of a fight change things. Emotions and him being out of the civilized world would have an effect. Walking into that house he has to know the high likelihood of a confrontation was gonna happen. To me, if you are going to start that shit you better be able to finish it. Michonne handled the gov far better, granted she wasn't shot like Rick but she seems to back up the warrior mindset. The fights are for TV so they happen that way for a reason but I would love to see Rick use some old school control techniques.

[DayoftheZ]

An ok episode on the back of three or four solid, solid ones. I don't know where they plan on going with Rick and Michonne but the last thing we need is a power struggle in Team Rick. The thing we have learned is they survive when they stick together, the first sign of free cookies and they could start turning on each other. I get the point on Pete vs Rick, I would like to see Rick win a fist fight every once in a while

Nicholas needs a painful and slow death. Sasha needs a slap and Carl needs a father son talk and fast!!

The Daryl / Aaron scenes were the show stealer for me, that was freaky as hell and left me wanting a conclusion.



If the Whisperers are coming, (and someone online mentioned "Clear" and Morgan talking about people wearing dead men's faces) could the W carved in the forehead be there to allow them to know who is one of them, and who is an actual walker? Makes sense from a safety standpoint (just in case one gets a little too close), as well as being there for the planted Whisperers inside Alexandria (Enid??).

Not sure about the Scavengers being renamed the 'Wolves', and how carving a W is useful, beyond just being fun. Seems like that storyline got resolved fairly quickly, although it would make a good season finale.

I hope the TV series avoids the Whisperers at all costs it was a gimic idea in the Comic and it would be even worse on screen in my honest opinion.

For what it is worth I think these people will turn out to be either a branch of Negan's men or the scavengers.

[AcesandEights]

about Rick...When you think about it, he hasn't known love or a tender touch in that kind of way (not necessarily sex, but intimacy) in a very long time.
Sounds like this episode hit a bit close to home for you, MZ :p

- - - Updated - - -



The Daryl / Aaron scenes were the show stealer for me, that was freaky as hell and left me wanting a conclusion.

Good point! Very creepy.

[facestabber]

This show is unique that I can't wait till Sunday's yet dread them at the same time. Losing characters we care about is always possible, especially in finales. But just when you think there is a formula, the writers switch it up. 7 month cliffhangers friggin suck.

[AcesandEights]

I keep looking for a large version of that Crazy Rick smiling image per MZ's new avatar image. I want to see it recolored white face and green hair to see how Jokerish Rick can look.

[Moon Knight]

I keep looking for a large version of that Crazy Rick smiling image per MZ's new avatar image. I want to see it recolored white face and green hair to see how Jokerish Rick can look.

Andrew Lincoln, once again, was great in that final scene. Talk about a character evolution. Also, again, Rick isn't Captain America lol, so what if he didn't take out Pete quickly, he still won! And if he really wanted to kill the Doc he would have ended much sooner imo. Just ask Joe. :D

[Neil]

Can someone clear up the woman they found bound to the tree? Was she suppose to be survivor or a zombie at the time of her being tied up? I was lleft a bit confused there!

And we're still none the wise as to the "W" on some zombies foreheads? (Please no comic book spoilers)

[DayoftheZ]

Can someone clear up the woman they found bound to the tree? Was she suppose to be survivor or a zombie at the time of her being tied up? I was lleft a bit confused there!

And we're still none the wise as to the "W" on some zombies foreheads? (Please no comic book spoilers)

She turned as Daryl lifted her head so I read that as she was alive until these hinted at group got hold of her. I think the fact she was naked hints at what this group did to her before tying her to the tree.

Even as a comic reader I have no clue what the W is all about. I assume this will play out in the finale because they made a big deal out of showing lots of Walkers with carved heads in this episode.

[MinionZombie]

Sounds like this episode hit a bit close to home for you, MZ :p

Cheeky bastard. :p


This show is unique that I can't wait till Sunday's yet dread them at the same time. Losing characters we care about is always possible, especially in finales. But just when you think there is a formula, the writers switch it up. 7 month cliffhangers friggin suck.

The tension is unreal, isn't it? They're so well known for bluffs, double bluffs, triple bluffs, and even quadruple and quintuple bluffs, that you just don't know what to think. Even announcing who's going to be on Talking Dead gets you wrapped up in a flurry of possibilities and "but what if this means" thinking ... it's enough to turn you loopy. :lol:


Can someone clear up the woman they found bound to the tree? Was she suppose to be survivor or a zombie at the time of her being tied up? I was lleft a bit confused there!

Clearly a human when she was stripped and tied to the tree to be fed to the walkers for whatever reason (a vile form of punishment?) - hence not moving at all - she just happened to turn when Daryl lifted her head up for a little extra effect. Nefarious deeds ... grim stuff.

[Neil]

Clearly a human when she was stripped and tied to the tree to be fed to the walkers for whatever reason (a vile form of punishment?) - hence not moving at all - she just happened to turn when Daryl lifted her head up for a little extra effect. Nefarious deeds ... grim stuff.

...and all this happening seemingly very close to their village. So:-
a) They're not hearing any of these goings on from the village.
b) And the bigger question is, are these other people not aware of the village just a stones throw away?

Really am interested in the reason for all this limb chopping off torso stuff! Hoepfully all will be revealed next episode!

[Moon Knight]

The "W" isn't in the books at all so we're all playing the same guessing game. Multiple possibilities but we won't know until the Finale.

Whoever is doing this is getting closer to Alexandria. Daryl and Aaron out on the recruiting mission can't be too far off from home base. I also think that baloon flying off into the open might be a tip off for whoever or whatever is out there dismembering walkers and humans alike.

[MoonSylver]

I keep looking for a large version of that Crazy Rick smiling image per MZ's new avatar image. I want to see it recolored white face and green hair to see how Jokerish Rick can look.

http://forum.homepageofthedead.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1374&d=1427216794

:lol:

[MinionZombie]

...and all this happening seemingly very close to their village. So:-
a) They're not hearing any of these goings on from the village.
b) And the bigger question is, are these other people not aware of the village just a stones throw away?

Really am interested in the reason for all this limb chopping off torso stuff! Hoepfully all will be revealed next episode!

Didn't Daryl go out on his motorbike? I thought that him and Aaron had been out for a while, like overnight at least, and were roaming around (so the distance could be fair) ... we don't have enough to go on yet, so we'll have to wait and see. I cannot wait for Monday to roll around!!!

[RichW]

Damn, they keep ramping up the tension .... some really good build up going on here.
Thumbs up to the TWD writers. :thumbsup:

Every time I watch this one it stands out to be just how much Rick is turning into
a mirror image of Shane.
(Thinking compare what he was saying about looking after Jessie & Sam to Jessie
with what Shane said about looking after Lori and comparisons to 'who will make it
in this world')

Ricks speech at the end of this episode could easily have been recited word for word by
Shane when back at Herschels farm!! Including the 'no more easy living' parts.
Scary huh?

I hope we get to see some good Morgan before the end and not getting turned
into crab pathe either.

Theory on the 'W' ...... :D

Maybe it's George 'dubya' Bush .... he's come back as the undead president to lead
the zombie alliance. Heck, didn't the W even stand for Walker???:stunned:

Look out USA W's back!! :elol:

HAGO, R

PS, The season break is gonna suck.

[Moon Knight]

Damn, they keep ramping up the tension .... some really good build up going on here.
Thumbs up to the TWD writers. :thumbsup:

Every time I watch this one it stands out to be just how much Rick is turning into
a mirror image of Shane.
(Thinking compare what he was saying about looking after Jessie & Sam to Jessie
with what Shane said about looking after Lori and comparisons to 'who will make it
in this world')

Ricks speech at the end of this episode could easily have been resighted word for word by
Shane when back at Herschels farm!! Including the 'no more easy living' parts.
Scary huh?

I hope we get to see some good Morgan before the end and not getting turned
into crab pathe either.

Theory on the 'W' ...... :D

Maybe it's George 'dubya' Bush .... he's come back as the undead president to lead
the zombie alliance. Heck, didn't the W even stand for Walker???:stunned:

Look out USA W's back!! :elol:

HAGO, R

PS, The season break is gonna suck.

At least we get the new spin off series in the summer. And of course Game of Thrones!

[Wyldwraith]

An essential problem here:
There are deep-seated and outright dangerous flaws in both the Alexandrians mindset(s) (individually and collectively) and in their modus operandi. That combination of refusal to face the realities of life post-ZA and their unwritten code about running off and abandoning any comrade(s) who seem to be in danger when Walkers show up is awful enough, but when you add both these factors to the FACT that the Alexandrians are absolutely dogged in their refusal to recognize the need for multifaceted change on their part the entire dynamic becomes unsalvageable.

What do you, as a member of Team Rick do when you're forced to recognize a) These people refuse to change, and b) React by feeling alienated towards anyone who forces them to face that need for change. In other words, the Alexandrians would rather take the simplistic approach of developing antagonism towards Rick & Co, rather than examine what it is about the situation that's caused elements of Team Rick to react so strongly.

I just don't see any viable co-existence being possible. The Alexandrians want to stay safe inside their cowardice-laden bubble of "pragmatic responses", yet they a) Recognize the need for people willing to do things their perspective leaves them unequipped to handle themselves, but b) Hypocritically focus on Team Rick meeting that need, even as they damn Rick & Co for being the kinds of people capable of being useful (as the Alexandrians define usefulness).

There just isn't any room for a meeting of the minds and meaningful compromise. My opinion perhaps, but not I feel one lacking any number of supporting instances confirming said opinion, at least again, IMO.

[Neil]

At least we get the new spin off series in the summer. And of course Game of Thrones!

Yes!!! And double yes!!!

- - - Updated - - -


An essential problem here:
There are deep-seated and outright dangerous flaws in both the Alexandrians mindset(s) (individually and collectively) and in their modus operandi. That combination of refusal to face the realities of life post-ZA and their unwritten code about running off and abandoning any comrade(s) who seem to be in danger when Walkers show up is awful enough, but when you add both these factors to the FACT that the Alexandrians are absolutely dogged in their refusal to recognize the need for multifaceted change on their part the entire dynamic becomes unsalvageable.

What do you, as a member of Team Rick do when you're forced to recognize a) These people refuse to change, and b) React by feeling alienated towards anyone who forces them to face that need for change. In other words, the Alexandrians would rather take the simplistic approach of developing antagonism towards Rick & Co, rather than examine what it is about the situation that's caused elements of Team Rick to react so strongly.

I just don't see any viable co-existence being possible. The Alexandrians want to stay safe inside their cowardice-laden bubble of "pragmatic responses", yet they a) Recognize the need for people willing to do things their perspective leaves them unequipped to handle themselves, but b) Hypocritically focus on Team Rick meeting that need, even as they damn Rick & Co for being the kinds of people capable of being useful (as the Alexandrians define usefulness).

There just isn't any room for a meeting of the minds and meaningful compromise. My opinion perhaps, but not I feel one lacking any number of supporting instances confirming said opinion, at least again, IMO.

Nicely put!

[Moon Knight]

An essential problem here:
There are deep-seated and outright dangerous flaws in both the Alexandrians mindset(s) (individually and collectively) and in their modus operandi. That combination of refusal to face the realities of life post-ZA and their unwritten code about running off and abandoning any comrade(s) who seem to be in danger when Walkers show up is awful enough, but when you add both these factors to the FACT that the Alexandrians are absolutely dogged in their refusal to recognize the need for multifaceted change on their part the entire dynamic becomes unsalvageable.

What do you, as a member of Team Rick do when you're forced to recognize a) These people refuse to change, and b) React by feeling alienated towards anyone who forces them to face that need for change. In other words, the Alexandrians would rather take the simplistic approach of developing antagonism towards Rick & Co, rather than examine what it is about the situation that's caused elements of Team Rick to react so strongly.

I just don't see any viable co-existence being possible. The Alexandrians want to stay safe inside their cowardice-laden bubble of "pragmatic responses", yet they a) Recognize the need for people willing to do things their perspective leaves them unequipped to handle themselves, but b) Hypocritically focus on Team Rick meeting that need, even as they damn Rick & Co for being the kinds of people capable of being useful (as the Alexandrians define usefulness).

There just isn't any room for a meeting of the minds and meaningful compromise. My opinion perhaps, but not I feel one lacking any number of supporting instances confirming said opinion, at least again, IMO.

You bring up a great point. If Deanna wanted the Survivors to intergrate into Alexandria to better strengthen their community, why is she so hesitant to see things their way? She clearly understands everything they have been through and everything they survived through. Just listen to Rick, dammit!

Ok, maybe it's not that easy and especially after that snitch Gabriel and everything with Aiden, things can be a bit cloudy for the congress woman.

She didn't really seem to buy into Nicholas story, though.

[facestabber]

You bring up a great point. If Deanna wanted the Survivors to intergrate into Alexandria to better strengthen their community, why is she so hesitant to see things their way? She clearly understands everything they have been through and everything they survived through. Just listen to Rick, dammit!

Ok, maybe it's not that easy and especially after that snitch Gabriel and everything with Aiden, things can be a bit cloudy for the congress woman.

She didn't really seem to buy into Nicholas story, though.

I think you're right about her not buying Nicholas' story. After all she sided with Glen after he ko'd Aiden. I think she was aware that Aiden and Nicholas were loose cannons but at the end of the day they brought home supplies. Same with Pete. Guy beats his wife but they need a surgeon. As a politician, she has no problem allowing Jesse to take some beatings if it keeps the surgeon around. Pete's a class A prick but for a society to survive and thrive, it would be necessary to have that skill. I'd still kill the fucker though.

[MinionZombie]

I think you're right about her not buying Nicholas' story. After all she sided with Glen after he ko'd Aiden. I think she was aware that Aiden and Nicholas were loose cannons but at the end of the day they brought home supplies. Same with Pete. Guy beats his wife but they need a surgeon. As a politician, she has no problem allowing Jesse to take some beatings if it keeps the surgeon around. Pete's a class A prick but for a society to survive and thrive, it would be necessary to have that skill. I'd still kill the fucker though.

Yeah, I reckon Deanna doesn't buy Nicholas' story - he's untrustworthy as all get out when he's telling that made-up story, and of course we know the truth.

On the subject of Pete - what would you folks do about him in that scenario?

Exhiling him is too dangerous an option, I'd think - he could team up with people on the outside, from wherever, and take the place back by force ... you've got a safe haven and you're sending people outside with that knowledge to their potential death, but quite possibly a bitter and twisted survival with vengeance written all over it.

However, staying as-is ain't an option either for the sake of Jessie and Sam ... you'd have to insist they live in separate homes far away from each other at the very least, but even then you'd need to make sure that Jessie's house was secure and that everyone knew about Pete so they could all keep an eye on him. Then again, if you need the help of the one surgeon in town and you're on his bad side - do you want to go under his knife? In surgery he'd have to be supervised, and even then he could do something untoward (but then the Alexandrians would have few choices left).

I suppose you could create some kind of jail, a secure building with guards, and lock him up - but for how long - and he'll still likely harbour resentment for the Alexandrians.

Doing nothing is the only option not to take, though.

So - thoughts - what would you folks do with Pete?

[shootemindehead]

Well, I think the Rick/Carol option of killing him is a bit silly TBH. But I also think Rick is losing the plot gradually and finding it extremely difficult to adjust to his new setting. There's been too much time spent out in the wild.

The logical thing to do, now that this is all out in the open, would be to separate him from the wife and kid and supervise a clean up effort. He's hitting the bottle way to often and clearly there's some coping issues going in there with him, which he takes out on the nearest, weaker target.

As a surgeon, he's an extremely valuable asset in a world where even small injuries would mean death or crippling. The little gay lad who broke his ankle would be in deep doo-doo without him.

Now that everyone knows about his spousal abuse, he'll know he's under watchful eyes and with a severe enough punishment if he chooses to regress, that may be enough to make him cop on, or at least discuss what's going on.

Of course, this is a TV show, so none of that is actually going to happen, because there would be no drama in it and besides, as is usual, it's going to hit the fan next week on a cliffhanger and they'll have more than domestic issues to worry about.

On the subject of Rick, imagine if you were in "Alexandria" and see this guy appear and freak out like he's done in a matter of a week or so, making statements about how he's not going to allow this, that and the other. Without knowing his past, like the viewers do, I sure there would be more than a few people willing to put a bullet between his eyes.

[Buzzbomb]

So - thoughts - what would you folks do with Pete?

Stop him drinking alcohol for a start.... cig's too I guess. Then I'd resurrect some medieval style stocks & let him fester for a while.

I'd like to see Rick in 'em too...

An alternative would be to manacle their feet (outside the wall) & give a small rock to defend themselves with.

PS: Hoping next week's episode is better...

[facestabber]

Pete is a complex problem. Civilization is starting over. Granted the dead rising is a new addition but this is a chance to right the wrongs of our ancestors. learn from their mistakes. But I think man is destined to fuck it up. Kill Pete exhile Pete jail Pete. There is no way way the community would unanimously agree to Petes fate. Even if it's 100 to 1, that "1" will always exist because some people are assholes and can never accept conformity at any level.

So I still haven't answered Minions question about what I'd do with Pete. He is lowlife scum. I have zero patience in this world for a human like that. But in TWD universe he does have a skill that's extremely valuable. Would I kill him? Probably not. If he died would I shed a tear? Nope. If the town voted to kill him would I stand in the way? Nope.
Admittedly I have changed my views over the seasons. I respected the heck out of Dales speech about losing ones humanity by executing Randal. Dale was right. But then Again so was Shane. Randal knew Maggie and could easily return to do harm. What a shitty world with shitty decisions to make. If I was in TWD universe I would see myself more as Daryl. Fiercely protective but always in a secondary role regarding decisions.

[Wyldwraith]

Incarcerate Pete,
Put him to work as-needed as forced labor, with the understanding that if anything unpleasant happens to someone he's treating, something worse will happen to him. (Like say, cutting off one of his testicles and cauterizing the wound. After a couple of torture-punishments Pete would be quite malleable. When it comes to torture it isn't IF someone breaks, it's WHEN.

Uncivilized? Certainly. Savage? You betcha. Effective? 100%

In a world of bad choices you make the choice that affords the greatest quality of life to the largest # of *deserving* people. Of course that brings up the question of defining "deserving"...which isn't as complex as some might think. Loyal to the one in power, relatively stable and an asset to the group...that's really all you need from a person.

If you can't restart civilization, do the next best thing and feather the nest of you and your packmates. Moral quandaries are for people not living in a post-apocalyptic world.

I mean what's the alternative? Cling to some hybrid of pre and post-apocalyptic morality and let that moral code get you and your killed horribly? What kind of solution is that?
Sooner or late any survivor is going to have to face the reality that if you're not willing to operate as a Moral Power, imposing your perspective where you cannot persuade others to adopt it, then you're going to end up either dead or, at best, one of the herd with no say in the judgment calls you're forced to accept. The pre-apocalypse world is NOT coming back, nothing remotely resembling said reality will be coming back unless or until the Walkers all fall over and cease to function.

Faced with the choice of either shaping what the operating social code will be for those who join you and yours and will have to abide by, or being one of those forced into a role of passively having to accept the dictates of someone else, I would rather be among those hammering out the rules than among those simply left with no choice but to abide by said dictates.

Whether acting in such a fashion is moral or not is IRRELEVANT. Rick accepted the responsibility to look out for the best interests of his people, plain and simple. Like every other group of people Team Rick has encountered, the Alexandrians have their heads firmly stuck up their asses and doggedly refuse to accept reality as it is and not as they would like it to be. As such, the Alexandrians are what amounts to an impediment to the survival of Team Rick. Now if some of the Alexandrians come to their senses and align wholeheartedly with Team Rick, and are willing to take action in such a way as to prove their loyalty to the group, all the better. As for the rest, either get on board, get the hell out of the way (permanently, ie: Pack the fuck up and travel a long, long ways away from Alexandria) or get trodden underfoot.

Playing at being civilized has already gotten Noah killed, Tara critically injured and it came ever so close to getting Glenn killed as well. What has Team Rick received in exchange for the loss of these loyal group members that were stable, known quantities? Deep-seated suspicion and hostility from the Alexandrians, who are nothing but a bunch of sniveling cowards looking for a free lunch.

Put it another way: Would the world lose anything meaningful if Team Rick went all feudal on Alexandria and ground to paste those cowards unwilling to make themselves useful? The absolutely key thing to remember here is that pre-apocalypse morality is not an Absolute Truth. Said moral code was the best effort to create a social contract adapted as effectively as possible to the reality of the populace. Now that said reality is utterly different, there is no inherent value in the retention of that moral code. Like everything else in a day-to-day survival situation it either helps the survival effort or it hinders it. If the latter (which I believe we can all agree is true given the utter breakdown of all aspects of society) it should be discarded.

After all, Rick sounding like Shane to an extent is not necessarily a bad thing. If it means he's unswervingly committed to the welfare of his people, even if that means gutting the lives of people who've chosen not to positively contribute to the survival effort of Rick & Co, what does that make him besides a good leader?

[UndeadHippo]

During the fistfight, Jessie ran to try and stop Pete, and got knocked on her ass for her trouble. I thought "yay, now the people can see what an utter bastard Pete is" then moments later, Carl ran in to try and stop Rick, and got the same treatment. Is Rick any better than Pete at this point? He's lashing out and hitting his son, without thinking. He's already killed his best friend. He's ripped a man's throat out with his teeth, and summarily executed an unarmed prisoner in a particularly violent way.

Thank god for Michonne!

[Moon Knight]

Seperate Pete from Jesse and take away his alcohol. Keep a watch on him. He still causes trouble then it's time he looks at the flowers.

It's not an easy choice but in the zombie apocalypse, nothing is.

Rick made the right call confronting Pete. It's just that he went about it the worst way possible.

[BillyRay]

Give Pete Carol as his babysitter. That'll set him straight...

[AcesandEights]

So - thoughts - what would you folks do with Pete?

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b205/DougOBrien/Misery-Ankles_zpsuqv8vrvk.jpg

[MinionZombie]

Interesting responses to the Pete question, folks. It's a thorny, complicated problem isn't it?

I imagine Alexandria is gonna get a rude awakening in the season finale ... maybe they'll get some post-ZA sense knocked into them?


During the fistfight, Jessie ran to try and stop Pete, and got knocked on her ass for her trouble. I thought "yay, now the people can see what an utter bastard Pete is" then moments later, Carl ran in to try and stop Rick, and got the same treatment. Is Rick any better than Pete at this point? He's lashing out and hitting his son, without thinking. He's already killed his best friend. He's ripped a man's throat out with his teeth, and summarily executed an unarmed prisoner in a particularly violent way.

Thank god for Michonne!

To be fair to Rick, he only shoved Carl away - whereas Pete flat out slapped Jessie down. For Rick it was about keeping Carl out of the fight, but for Pete it was just another target for his violence ... I'd like to think that the Alexandrians would notice the difference, and if they didn't already know Pete was beating his wife then they should damn well know now.


http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b205/DougOBrien/Misery-Ankles_zpsuqv8vrvk.jpg

:lol::lol::lol:

[Wyldwraith]

Again,
I see it as neither thorny or complicated. The situation with Pete is merely symptomatic of the larger problem posed by the Alexandrians useful-as-tits-on-a-bull way of doing things. How DARE they, even for an INSTANT PRESUME to JUDGE anything or anyone that's a part of Team Rick??? These people have huddled inside their walled community and let cowardice become the operating mindset of their populace. They lucked out so far and by that sheer luck experienced none of the calamities other survivors have been forced to contend with in the zombie apocalypse. Then, rather than adapt to reality, they try to enshrine their cowardice in the justification that they're somehow rebuilding the pre-apocalypse world. BULLSHIT.

You step on Pete HARD, and you tell any of these other sniveling cowards that their free pass is over. What's difficult to grasp about this? Toss a couple of the most vocal dissenters (like say, Deanna and Gabriel) into a pit full of Walkers, and force the rest of the community to watch at gunpoint. That will clarify things immediately. Team Rick tried the let's earn their acceptance route and it went over like a lead balloon. It's become quite obvious the Alexandrians are either going to turn on them completely or at the very least try and force them out to maintain the current status quo that has Deanna on top of the heap. So, Team Rick can either go back out into the wilderness that nearly ground them down to nothing, or they can do a few more unpleasant things and have a nice defensible place to live for awhile until this place goes tits-up just like the Prison did, which is inevitable.

Why's that a difficult choice or thorny moral quandary for a man with people to look after, who are looking to him for leadership? I just don't get it.

Edit: BTW Aces, rock on man. The Misery hobbling is a beautiful, beautiful piece of imagery here.

[UndeadHippo]

To be fair to Rick, he only shoved Carl away - whereas Pete flat out slapped Jessie down. For Rick it was about keeping Carl out of the fight, but for Pete it was just another target for his violence ... I'd like to think that the Alexandrians would notice the difference, and if they didn't already know Pete was beating his wife then they should damn well know now.



see, there's the thing, we had a much better view of what was happening than the average observer, and both took different things from what we saw. Maybe Joe Alexandrian would say "Pete was just trying to stop Jessie getting involved in his fight with that obviously deranged outsider"

Joe Alexandrian is obviously wrong, and an idiot, but never underestimate people's stupidity and willful ignorance about things that don't fit their comfortable world view.

as an aside....where was Gabriel amongst this weeks events? i didn't see him in the crowd of onlookers, and it seems odd that he has just vanished after last weeks little speech?

[Moon Knight]

Gabriel was most likely tucked away in his Church. I take it Abraham was out leading the construction crew.

[Wyldwraith]

I still don't see the ambiguity here,

1) Deanna KNEW Pete was beating Jessie, and ignored it because it was convenient and because she was unwilling to do without Pete's services. In no uncertain terms she decided that Jessie being beaten progressively worse, and their kids living in fear was an acceptable price to pay for said medical services.

2) Deanna has an axe to grind because of Aidan. Whatever she may say in politician-speak, she holds Team Rick responsible for Aidan's death, and even if everything inside her is telling her Nicholas's account of events is 100% bullshit, she WANTS to believe Nicholas, because it suits her agenda.

3) Alexandria itself is having a corrosive effect on Team Rick. Forced to endure an inherently flawed system set up to support cowards who want other people to do the dirty work, while said cowards retain the right to sit in judgment of those doing said dirty work. The very fact Michonne turned on Rick in support of these people when Deanna had as much as stated Rick was being outed tells you just how much the very place is tearing at the bonds that have allowed their group to survive.

4) This goes back to Point 2. If Deanna was interested in keeping the peace and resolving the situation fairly, she wouldn't immediately have depicted Rick as the one who was the problem. Basic questions in need of answers before someone seeking to be fair go something like this: "Jessie, how did this fight start and why?" "Rick, why did this conflict end up in a bloody brawl in the street?" "Pete, same question as Rick." Deanna had no interest in seeing the situation resolved appropriately. To her it was nothing more than the opportune cassus belli to go after Rick. What Deanna wants is Rick gone, but select elements of Team Rick (elements she's certain will be more malleable and fall in with her way of doing things) to stay and continue providing the free lunch the Alexandrians want and feel entitled to.

If Deanna isn't arranging things to get rid of the leader of Team Rick, then why the immediate pow-wow to discuss and cement his banishing? Answer: Deanna a) Doesn't want to give the members of the group time to really examine what's happening, and b) She doesn't want them grouped together and operating as a unit again. For example: Daryl's currently out on a run. Deanna wants to present Rick's banishment as a fait accompli, and have him gone before Daryl even knows about it. She's counting on the fact that because it's a HEAVY decision on an individual level to choose going back out there, if she gets Rick gone now, now, now, it'll physically break up the group. Those inclined to stay will be able to justify their disloyalty as follows "He's been gone for X amount of time. There's no guarantee we could even catch up with him...." Everything Rick said once the fight was over was true, but Michonne's need not to be out there any longer caused her to turn traitor. Michonne knew if Rick wasn't taken out of commission there was a high % probability that most if not all the group (aside from her) would've rallied to Rick. Now however she's given Deanna the optimal venue to a) Arrange Rick's banishment and b) Smear him in such a way so as to create a rift large enough in their group that their unity is lost. Judging by the previews of the finale, Deanna gets exactly what she wants.

The sad thing is this: There's no long-term future for most members of Team Rick in Alexandria. Glenn is right behind Rick on Deanna's shit list because of Aidan. Maggie and Glenn are a pair, so if Glenn is pushed out Maggie follows. Carl and Judith are Rick's kids, and even though I might be able to envision a remote possibility of Rick being willing to leave them behind to keep them safe, there's no damned way Carl would allow it unless their going to keep him imprisoned. If Carl's out they certainly aren't leaving Judith behind...and Carol has an attachment to the kids, plus her own unique relationship with Rick that I believe is strong enough she'd leave Alexandria with Rick. Sasha is in so much pain she doesn't care where she is/where she's going. Abraham and therefore Rosita are something of a question mark, but long-term I don't see Abraham accepting the cut and run at the first sign of trouble modus operandi of the Alexandrians.

So all that Alexandria could accomplish would be to effect the disintegration of Team Rick. I'm really, REALLY interested to see how the other members of the group react when Deanna make it clear in no uncertain terms that she's angling for Rick's banishment. I find it difficult to believe that if faced with the choice Stay Without Rick or Leave With Rick and nothing in between that, with the exception of Michonne and possibly Abraham/Rosita/Eugene that any of the others would choose to stay.

Of course there's an absolutely idiotic way I could see this going down That Rick nobly convinces the group to stay and let him leave alone. The entire idea is asinine and ultimately unworkable for the reasons listed above, but I could see the writers having Rick do something so stupidly self-sacrificing.

I have a really REALLY bad feeling about the Finale. I just don't see the inevitable cliffhanger ending on any hopeful or group-sticking-together note. There's going to be another separation of group members, and likely one that persists for some time into next season. This is the first season finale where I feel like there's no hope for plot development that will be immediately interesting when the new season picks up.

Glenn's got this semi-irrational commitment to make the group's integration into Alexandria a success because Noah believed in the place, and he feels doing otherwise means Noah died for nothing.

I just don't get why it's so hard for any of them to see that this is what Deanna has wanted for some time. Pete was (so far as the witnesses saw) just as much to blame as Rick, and Jessie did say she wanted his help and I feel her sense of being responsible for what happened would cause her to speak up to the effect that a) Pete began the violence when SHE asked him to leave, and b) Pete attacked Rick, who took a lot in the interests of de-escalating the situation. Even if she stays silent you don't see Deanna calling a meeting to say "We need to talk about Pete."

And btw, how much bullshit is it that SHE maneuvers Rick and Michonne into becoming town law enforcement and then, the VERY FIRST TIME that there's a major law-enforcement decision to be made that a) Deanna damned well knows Rick is in the right, and damned well knows her "If it gets worse beyond X-point I'll banish him (Pete) is disingenuous bullshit, because if the current level of violent escalation isn't enough to reach the banishment threshold then the only significant tier of escalation left is for Pete to beat Jessie to death. And you KNOW if THAT happened, Deanna's logic would be "We can't change what's already happened, so why should we lose the surgeon who can save lives?" And b) Her primary reason for wanting rid of Rick is her completely unfounded hope/belief that without his influence the other members of the group will give her the best of both worlds. Providing her with their expertise to do the heavy lifting, but taking their lead from her and accepting her as the authority they answer to.

If you can't tell I'm fairly embittered at how this last episode went, and how the finale seems to be shaping up based on the previews. Always before I felt invested as a viewer in the plot-apex the finale represents plays out. This time though, the ONLY WAY I see anything worth watching is if Team Rick (or at least 80-90% of it) either leaves immediately with Rick when he's forced out, or they bail on Alexandria immediately (like within 15-20 minutes of real time).

The writers have played the Group Gets Fragmented And Takes Quite Some Time to Reunite AND Meanwhile There's Lots of Ping-Ponging Between the Disparate Group Fragments card once too often. Every Season seems to go that way with the exception of what, the one season where it started with Farmer Rick? And even then you had the plague plotline soon after which accomplished the same thing. And no, this isn't a matter of limited Tropes common to the genre.

Breaking the group up and Ponging between the separate elements has been so thoroughly done to death that truthfully the show would need to run for say, 8-10 more seasons before they could justifiably use it again. Doing it every single Season is TIRED. C'mon, tell me you don't all agree?

[MinionZombie]

Toss a couple of the most vocal dissenters (like say, Deanna and Gabriel) into a pit full of Walkers, and force the rest of the community to watch at gunpoint.

I generally agree with you, up to a point - and that point is this. :lol:

A surefire way to an argument into a war. You might get some folks to fear you enough, but you'll just as likely push others in the opposite direction and create a dangerous individual or individuals. If you're looking to live in Alexandria you'll want to form a basis of trust to work on - descending to the depths of The Governor or The Termites or The Claimers, being needlessly sadistic to make your point, is the preserve of a tyrant. What's the point in anything if you're just going to be a monster?

Such an action would repulse Team Rick as much as the Alexandrians. I understand the needs of Team Rick, but enacting them on the basis of grotesque violence, torture, and intimidation is not the way to go about it - all that's going to achieve is a dangerous foundation that'll inevitably crumble. If someone came into your town and took over by feeding your leader(s) to a pit full of walkers what would you think of that? Even if they all bow their heads you've not won them over in their hearts or minds, you've created an enemy that'll seek to overthrow you when you begin to relax or they get an opportune moment. If you were the one doing the barbarous act - could you ever, truly, sleep soundly - both in terms of the emotional impact of doing something so reprehensible, but also in that you'd not actually have any trust established with these people.

When Rick brought the remnants of Woodbury to the prison it was founded on trust - and it worked - had The Governor not come back to mess it all up it would have stayed that way (unless the walker/fence situation got fully out of hand). Without trust you can't form an effective township in the post-ZA ... the Termites had trust (between them), but their brutal ways were ultimately the end of them ... same with The Claimers ... and Woodbury was built upon a lie (The Governor) and came crashing down, once again as a result of the babaric ways of the leader.

[Wyldwraith]

You're absolutely right Minion,
You could never trust the other Alexandrians after taking over forcibly. Which is why as soon as you've momentarily cowed them with a show of force, you ELIMINATE THEM ALL. The conflict is less overt, but the continued existence of the Alexandrians leads to one of two things. 1) Team Rick ends up outed in one way or another, and thus back at square one. Or 2) Team Rick disintegrates as elements of the group make different decisions, destroying group unity and leaving both fragments as non-viable units of continued survival.

It isn't just a few Alexandrians who are bad people and can be culled to purify the population. NONE of the Alexandrians "get it"...they don't want to get it, but they want people who do get it to take on all the high-risk tasks, and reserve the right to judge how those people carry out said tasks.

What Glenn said about Nicholas is true about every single Alexandrian with the possible exception of Aaron. To paraphrase Glenn "You should all be DEAD, but that wall went up JUST in time." The only problem is Glenn's solution for "saving" Nicholas can't be applied to the entirety of the Alexandrian population. That would leave what's left of Team Rick making all the runs, and taking all the risks (and suffering all the casualties) while the Alexandrians kick back in perfect safety and enjoy the fruits of Team Rick's labors.

Deanna (among other Alexandrians, plus Gabriel) have already succeeded in framing the debate to their liking. Deanna renders the town uninhabitable for Team Rick, in one way or another, but she can't be eliminated without starting a pitched battle.

Where are the holes in my reasoning? If Deanna's leadership renders the town uninhabitable for Team Rick (we can debate whether that's in the short or long-term) and Deanna can't be eliminated without starting a war, how is it not a three way choice and two choices aren't really viable. 1) Submit to Deanna's authority and stand by while she banishes Rick. 2) Leave with Rick as a group, ending up back at square one. 3) Eliminate Deanna and do what's necessary to take control of Alexandria in a definitive long-term manner.

Integration is no longer, and in fact I can make a strong argument that it never was a true option for the group. So, diplomacy has failed. Why should Team Rick return to square one survival-wise, having paid in blood for Alexandria? Because it's the moral thing to do? I don't accept that. In the post-apocalyptic world you don't have the luxury of worrying about the welfare of others. You take care of you and yours, and anyone who objects while you're in the process of taking care of your own becomes the enemy.

Team Rick doesn't NEED more allies, or more friends. They DO NEED the supplies, the walls and the shelter Alexandria provides. In light of that need, and the fact that integration is only an option if it includes absolute capitulation to Deanna, how is there any other rational choice besides taking what Alexandria offers by force?

Morality only enters into an equation if someone is alive and in a position to force you and yours to a position of accountability to their moral code. Corpses (genuine ones, not the undead variety) I find are very easygoing and non-argumentative.

Or is it solely on a moral basis that you object Minion?

[shootemindehead]

What's the point in anything if you're just going to be a monster?

Such an action would repulse Team Rick as much as the Alexandrians. I understand the needs of Team Rick, but enacting them on the basis of grotesque violence, torture, and intimidation is not the way to go about it - all that's going to achieve is a dangerous foundation that'll inevitably crumble. If someone came into your town and took over by feeding your leader(s) to a pit full of walkers what would you think of that? Even if they all bow their heads you've not won them over in their hearts or minds, you've created an enemy that'll seek to overthrow you when you begin to relax or they get an opportune moment. If you were the one doing the barbarous act - could you ever, truly, sleep soundly - both in terms of the emotional impact of doing something so reprehensible, but also in that you'd not actually have any trust established with these people.

Exactly.

Plus, the next one in the pit will most likely be you.

[MinionZombie]

You're absolutely right Minion,
You could never trust the other Alexandrians after taking over forcibly. Which is why as soon as you've momentarily cowed them with a show of force, you ELIMINATE THEM ALL.

It isn't just a few Alexandrians who are bad people and can be culled to purify the population. NONE of the Alexandrians "get it"...they don't want to get it, but they want people who do get it to take on all the high-risk tasks, and reserve the right to judge how those people carry out said tasks.

Deanna (among other Alexandrians, plus Gabriel) have already succeeded in framing the debate to their liking. Deanna renders the town uninhabitable for Team Rick, in one way or another, but she can't be eliminated without starting a pitched battle.

Where are the holes in my reasoning? If Deanna's leadership renders the town uninhabitable for Team Rick (we can debate whether that's in the short or long-term) and Deanna can't be eliminated without starting a war, how is it not a three way choice and two choices aren't really viable. 1) Submit to Deanna's authority and stand by while she banishes Rick. 2) Leave with Rick as a group, ending up back at square one. 3) Eliminate Deanna and do what's necessary to take control of Alexandria in a definitive long-term manner.

Morality only enters into an equation if someone is alive and in a position to force you and yours to a position of accountability to their moral code. Corpses (genuine ones, not the undead variety) I find are very easygoing and non-argumentative.

Or is it solely on a moral basis that you object Minion?

Eliminate them all? Including the children of Alexandria?! :stunned: So not only would Rick be a mass murderer, a psychopathic torturer, but he'd also be a child killer. Once again - what's the point in surviving at all if you're going to so readily become a monster? That didn't end well for The Governor, or The Claimers, or The Termites.

None of the Alexandrians "get it"? What about the builder guy (Tobin?) who went back to Deanna and actively campaigned for Abraham to take over the lead of the construction crew? The woman that Abraham saved (the name escapes me right now) also seems pretty switched on, as did the other guy who ignored Tobin and went forward (with others following) to make sure that Abraham stayed alive. Plus we don't know what they'd all think when faced with the reality of the situation - some will be sorely inept, but others will be more than capable of rising to the challenge. Eugene was sorely inept, but he rose to the challenge a couple of episodes ago. Glenn was a videogaming pizza delivery boy who has become one of the most capable and important members of Team Rick. Even Beth found her strength (even if it ended badly for her).

We should also note that Deanna hasn't made up her mind yet - and she clearly didn't believe Nicholas' story. She'd also be keenly aware that if she banished Rick she'd likely lose some (maybe all) of Team Rick - and if any of them did stay, she'd have a trust problem with the remaining Team Rick members, so she's in a rather difficult position where diplomacy is the only realistic option for things to work out.

If she opted to execute Rick - which, by the looks of things, is against the principles of Alexandria (they won't even tell of a wife beater) - she'd instantly create an army of enemies in the form of Team Rick - extremely capable individuals who'd easily slaughter her and any people from Alexandria who'd try and fight them off. She herself said that they need Team Rick, she admonished her own son for his arrogance - and, indeed, Aidan showed he was learning by agreeing with Glenn about checking the perimeter of the solar factory before entering. However, he was still not aware enough to notice the grenades - but then again, it's dark, it's chaotic, you're nervous, there's muzzle flash, there's noise ... he might not have heard Glenn's warning, and obviously didn't see the grenades ... it was a bad end for him as a result and he regretted the 'leave them behind' mentality before he died.

Grotesque violence and torture is no way to establish a community you can rely on in this world - and if Rick acted in such a way he'd have no respect or trust from the Alexandrians (at best he'd have fear - but fear makes people capable of desperate things) - what's more I'm sure that many (or all) members of Team Rick would be horrified and lose all trust and respect for him too. His head would be on a pike sooner than he could say "Corrral!" ... or at the very least wind up with a bullet in the head. Michonne put a stop to Rick's beating of Pete - whether Pete deserved it or not in such a way is up to each individual - so already there's people on Team Rick who are willing to stand up to him ... just extrapolate that if Rick went for the 'pit of walkers and elimate them all' method.

Not only is it a moral issue - it would be way more than bending the stick, it'd be flat out breaking it into several pieces and burning it - but it's also a practical issue.

Plus, again, Deanna hasn't yet made any decision one way or the other - indeed she's said very little.


Exactly.

Plus, the next one in the pit will most likely be you.

Indeed!

[Wyldwraith]

Practically speaking I don't dispute many of your points,
Plus, to be fair the whole "Death by Walker-filled pit" was a bit of hyperbole that got away from me. Besides which, it'd be cumbersome to arrange in practice...so I should've left that go. If anyone was going to be eliminated by force quick bullets to the head would be far more rational and expedient.

All of that is beside the point however. The preview clearly indicates Deanna is moving for Rick's banishment. Whether that meeting is where she actually tries to make it happen, or is merely working to gain the necessary support to effect his banishment was not revealed. That said, if one accepts the supposition that at least a sizable portion of Team Rick aren't going to remain in a place Rick is being thrown out of, I don't see how the whole Deanna recognizes she needs Team Rick is still a factor. Unless Deanna believes, as I speculated, that getting rid of Rick will make the other member of the group more malleable.

Put more simply, I don't see how diplomacy can still be on the table when the primary position of the community's nominal leader is the exile of the man who leads the group of veteran survivors. That position is at complete cross-purposes to any diplomatic means of resolving the conflict.

Also, don't you think characterizing Michonne's buffaloing of Rick as being done to stop the fight is more than a little disingenuous? The fight was over and Rick was (admittedly loudly) stating his opinion when Michonne took him down. I believe Michonne was motivated 100% by her desire to do whatever is necessary to avoid being put in a position where she'd have to choose between leaving with the group and staying in Alexandria sans Team Rick. Was Rick "brandishing" a pistol...in the loosest definition of the word yes, but nothing in his words indicated he was prepared or preparing to begin shooting.

Yes, I realize that the notion of eliminating the current occupants of exceedingly rare and desirable real-estate is naturally repugnant. HOWEVER, with significant reason(s) to believe integration is no longer possible what do you do?

Just accept it and go back out into the wilderness and the slow death the group was nearing when Aaron found them? At what point is it, if not right, then at least personally acceptable to deprive others to a severe if not fatal extent to ensure the continued survival of your children and friends that have become as close as family?

You make the point Minion that there's no point to surviving if you're going to behave monstrously. Why is that? If a single comprehensive "monstrous" act purchases a long-term future for you and yours can't the victors put the bloodshed behind them and move on with life? I'm not suggesting that supplanting the Alexandrians should be done with an evil Gareth-like smirk and wicked joy singing in the hearts of the killers.

How far do you go to ensure, as much as humanly possible that your people have a future? It's not as if the concept is something new under the sun. Elements of mankind have been wiping out other elements of mankind for prime real estate and needed resources since time immemorial. Do you think that when push comes to shove that humanity has somehow grown more noble and altruistic in the last couple centuries? I don't.

Yes, of course where possible and where the risks to you and yours are at a personally acceptable level (which will of course vary from person to person) work with others and strengthen the tribe. But if it comes down to accepting a far more uncertain risk-of-horrible-death-laden future for you and yours if cooperation turns out to be unworkable or eliminating the competition for extremely scarce resources how does a man justify putting his children and family-by-choice in that greatly increased risk of death to "do the right thing" and not supplant others?

In a perfect world, with perfect people cooperation is always more desirable than conflict. The one increases resources and lessens risk of death while the other depletes resources and increases risk of death. These aren't perfect people though, and they have every reason to believe that Deanna means them harm because of Aidan's death. You can't cooperate with someone who at best wants to use you and yours until you're used up, and at worst wants to put you in a situation where death is the likely outcome.

Not to mention we viewers know Deanna isn't simply holding those members of Team Rick who went on the ill-fated run with Aidan responsible. Burning Carol's card and leaving the food untouched on the doorstep screams out loud that her axe to grind is with all of them.