TWD 5x16 "Conquer" (Season 5 Finale) episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN*

[MinionZombie]

Please keep all talk of episode 5x16 "Conquer" specifically inside this thread.

If you have a theory for a following episode, please use the "spoiler tags" (visit the HPOTD FAQ to find out how to use them if you don't already know).

Similarly, if you're going to discuss plot points from the comic book, please use "spoiler tags" - not everyone is up-to-date on them, and some people don't read them at all.

Enjoy!


Episode 5.16: Conquer - Daryl finds trouble while on a run; Rick and the group feel like outsiders in Alexandria, where trouble approaches the gates.

Directed by: Greg Nicotero
Written by: Scott M. Gimple

http://c534909.r9.cf2.rackcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Walking-Dead-516-01.jpg

[Moon Knight]

It all comes down to this.

“‘I give you a mausoleum of all hope and desire which will fit your individual needs, no better than it did mine and my father before me. I give it to you not that you may remember time, but that you may forget it. For a moment, now and then, and not spend all of your breath trying to conquer it.’”

-Dale 1x4 "Vatos"

[Neil]

Can't believe we're already at the end of the series :(

[Moon Knight]

Can't believe we're already at the end of the series :(

Season not series! Don't scare me, Neil!

[facestabber]

I couldn't help it. I read complete storyline narrative. I feel so dirty.

[Wyldwraith]

Enjoyed it,
But to call a shovel a shovel (Must be PC) that plotline was contrived to hell and gone. Don't get me wrong, it was WELL contrived, but c'mon. Gabriel couldn't have picked a better day, a better MOMENT to go all nihlist leave-the-gate-open if he and Rick had gotten together and hammered out a conspiracy to make Rick look good.

Though, I'm absolutely compelled to say this as well: What lucky star was Rick born under? Pete chooses the absolutely gut-check make-or-break moment to blunder in and sort of semi-accidentally slash open Tobin's throat, thereby making Deanna an instant convert to the Wyldwraith School of Savage Atavistic Justice (tm). Between Gabriel and Pete, Rick doesn't need allies. His enemies spend all their time polishing his halo and redeeming his tactical errors.

Still and all, contrived though it was, the ending went FAR better than I had reason to hope. I maintain and stand by my earlier position however, since one can't rely on the catastrophic blunders of one's enemies to keep you and yours safe.

[Staredge]

Yeah, but.......MORGAN!!!!!!!!! lol


Curious if Sasha will do the hug-the-walker thing. Was kind of hoping Fr. Gabriel would.

[Moon Knight]

Morgan is incredible.

Very satisfied with this episode. One of our heroes didn't die!

RIP Reg. He seemed like a really nice guy.

[facestabber]

I don't know if Carol could get any cooler. I love the transformation. I love the character.

Daryl is a noble human being. Honor. Integrity. He has it all. Fan favorite aside I liked Reedus performance. One last smoke before he potentially sacrifices himself. Reminded me of Merle.

Everyone catch the nod to Savini/Romero? Nice homage
Morgan!!! Finally. Nice to see he seems cleared.
Eugene has grown on me. Great exchange with Abe.

Now just wait 6 damn months.

[Rottedfreak]

Come to think about it, we didn't see Big Daddy, the butcher or Cheerleader this season.

[Moon Knight]

Glad they didn't kill Carol. Not even Rick frightened Pete as much as Carol did. I notice the Dawn of the Dead reference right away!

[MinionZombie]

*PHEW!*

I had so much fan tension going into this episode, and I'm relieved - I guess after having had a run of major deaths it was nice to have a finale where it didn't have to go down that route. Sure, people died, but I was fine with their offing ... it was getting pretty sketchy there for Glenn though, crikey! I suppose Gimple and co would know that us fans would be expecting some sort of "OMFG!" death, so allowed us to be teased, but went against our expectations - I'm glad they're able to duck and weave with audience expectations.

MORGAN!!!!! Damn am I glad my theory from last week didn't come true! When I turned up to save Daryl and Aaron I was so pleased to see him in 'present time' - and I loved that little bit between Morgan and Daryl and the map with "Rick Grimes" written on it. So glad to have Morgan on board now - and the dude's kicking ass ... now it was interesting that when he honked the horn (after leaving the two guys tied up in the back seat), Lennie James confirmed that Morgan was doing it to make sure there weren't walkers in the vicinity, not the opposite, so it's that whole 'precious life' thing.

Good to see some resolution begin to form regarding Sasha and Gabriel (that big, gate-opening dope!) ... and while that whole element did make for a very tidily written plot, it did achieve what needed to happen - to show the Alexandrians that they need to buck up their ideas quick.

Lots of restraint on Glenn's part - what would you have done in that same position and why? I would want to shoot the bastard, but I can see the value in self-restraint, particularly with things being sketchy between Team Rick and the Alexandrians at that point. Indeed there was an interesting theme of forgiveness in the episode - contrasted heavily by Rick enacting Deanna's grief-stricken order ... I'd imagine Rick's permanently cock-blocked himself with Jessie now. :D

The Wolves are coming ... oooooooh ... and it seems Aaron dropped his bag inside the compound (with pictures of Alexandria inside!) ... well I can't imagine that's going to be a helpful mistake! :p


Still and all, contrived though it was, the ending went FAR better than I had reason to hope. I maintain and stand by my earlier position however, since one can't rely on the catastrophic blunders of one's enemies to keep you and yours safe.

BTW it was Reg who Pete accidentally slashed with Michonne's sword (Tobin's the construction crew guy who said Abraham should take over his job). That was another moment straight out of the comics, albeit slightly tweaked. :)

And I stick by my position too. If we HPOTD'ers ever end up in the zombie apocalypse together, I'll be keeping a close eye on you, Wyld! :lol:;):lol::p:lol::D


I don't know if Carol could get any cooler. I love the transformation. I love the character.

Daryl is a noble human being. Honor. Integrity. He has it all. Fan favorite aside I liked Reedus performance. One last smoke before he potentially sacrifices himself. Reminded me of Merle.

Everyone catch the nod to Savini/Romero? Nice homage
Morgan!!! Finally. Nice to see he seems cleared.
Eugene has grown on me. Great exchange with Abe.

Now just wait 6 damn months.

Loved the machete zombie reference to Dawn, but walker kill of the week (for me) goes to Rick shoving his gun up through the walker's gooey throat and blowing its brains out from the inside! :elol:

"Integrity" is a good way of describing Daryl ... that car scene got a little hairy for a minute there.

Also loved it when Carol called Rick "sunshine". :D

TWD 5x16 Memes:
http://deadshed.blogspot.co.uk/2015/03/season-finale-edition-walking-dead-5x16.html

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-4SUe24m6moc/VRlxelMNTEI/AAAAAAAADys/ed715OxI6zE/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_5_Meme_Rick_Grimes_Shoot_W alker_Jams_Gun_Head_Kills_Inside_5x16_DeadShed.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-iCDwr-4qsyM/VRlxfzbRNVI/AAAAAAAADy4/Fz_h5wk6mEc/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_5_Meme_Rick_Grimes_Chatty_ Campfire_Saved_You%27re_Welcome_5x16_DeadShed.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9nxNbqX6vZ0/VRlxiNhL4lI/AAAAAAAADzE/eYQJSQcDwSY/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_5_Meme_Rick_Morgan_Thought _You_Were_Crazy_Thought_Your_Were_Sane_5x16_DeadSh ed.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-YHk0-opNwDs/VRlxflAGyKI/AAAAAAAADy0/xsp8FBJZNxg/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_5_Meme_Rick_Grimes_Pete_De anna_Reg_Shoot_Hashtag_Dead_PorchDick_5x16_DeadShe d.jpg


:)

[facestabber]

Obviously the dynamic between Rick and Morgan will have everyone's attention. Morgan showed up at the exact wrong moment. Clearly Morgan's, life is precious, is his driving force. But Morgan is still carrying an M4. So he has to still have the ability to use deadly force right? I love Morgan. Glad he's on board but allowing two men to live after they tried to kill him is just plain dumb. I expect Wylde to jump on that and rightfully so.

And what the hell. It sure seemed the "red" theme would be tied together to make sense. Did I just miss it or they waiting for season 6?

[Wyldwraith]

@Minion:
For the record, the trait most commonly used as a descriptive of me by those who are close friends and family are words like Loyal, Devoted, Protective (sometime Over-Protective). The way I grew up taught me life is Us Vs Them, and taking too long to decide who's "Us" and who's "Them" gets people hurt, the wrong people. Made that mistake twice, not going for the hat trick. And that's in the real civilized world. So my biases are out in the open.

Concerning Morgan: His "Life is Precious" position is unworkable in a post-apocalyptic world. The "Wolf" with the unloaded gun told him as much IN DETAIL. Ie: "Nope, taking everything you have of any value isn't enough. I insist on taking your life too." Because of that evil little bit of conversation I consider Morgan as factually guilty of the murder of the man in the red hoodie (And every other person those 2 "Wolves" kill from this point onward) as if he'd joined up with them and committed the murders with his own hands. Very rarely does the villain tell you face-to-face, in expressive detail and citing pseudo-historical precedent as justification for his unrepentant, pure unadulterated EVIL. Morgan had not just EVERY, but ALL POSSIBLE REASONS to know that those two would if allowed to live go right on killing.

It's like Rick said to Gareth when Gareth was pleading for mercy, saying "We can just leave, and we'll never cross your paths again." And Rick replied "But you'll cross someone's path, won't you? You'd do this to ANYONE!" *MOST* of the time in practice sins of omission are less evil than sins of commission. Failing to help someone you come across severely injured and bleeding in a ditch is less evil than being the person who savagely beat and stabbed the victim before rolling them into said ditch.

In this case however, Morgan's complete factual understanding of the fundamental nature of the "Wolves", coupled with his complete control over their fates adds up to Morgan being JUST AS RESPONSIBLE for every evil act of that pair of Wolves from now on. Someone once said "All that is necessary for Evil to triumph is for Good men to do nothing." That couldn't be more true, or practically applicable to Morgan's actions as if the saying had been coined by someone who witnessed Morgan's actions.

Yes, there are times when morality must be dispensed with, in extreme life-or-death situations where it's not simply a matter of one's personal survival but also the survival of those you love and those who are looking to you for protection. There are ALSO times when, all things being equal, acts that the majority of human beings would consider "wrong" or "Evil" are perpetrated not from a sense of necessity but for the sheer wicked joy of reveling in the pain and death of another sentient being...these are acts of "Pure Evil" as far as I'm concerned. Individuals who perpetrate such acts with clear minds (Ie: Without the mitigation of severe mental illness, for example) must be exterminated like vermin.

Subjective Morality may be a slippery slope, but when you find someone whose swan-dived from said slope into the abyss of Absolute Depravity of their own free will, you either kill them, die trying, or assume co-equal responsibility for their actions.

[sandrock74]

No one is responsible for the actions of others. It's really that simple.

Should Morgan have killed the two "wolves"? Probably, yes. Is he responsible for anything they may do afterwards? Nope; THEY would be responsible for their actions.

That said...I wonder when Morgan took lessons from Donatello?

[DayoftheZ]

No one is responsible for the actions of others. It's really that simple.

Should Morgan have killed the two "wolves"? Probably, yes. Is he responsible for anything they may do afterwards? Nope; THEY would be responsible for their actions.

That said...I wonder when Morgan took lessons from Donatello?

Excellent end to an excellent series five.

One thing I noticed was that the car door Daryl was sat next to was unlocked. The first zombie in Night of The Living Dead would have had that door in a jiffy!!!:D

Another top episode for Rick and Glenn and as has been covered Morgan was awesome, but I hope next series they don't overdo the Rick vs Morgan way of thinking too much. We need a united front now the Wolves have been introduced.

Kudos to Carl for staying inside the house!!!:p

[Moon Knight]

The man in the red hood was an obvious nod to Little Red Riding Hood. You know, them being "Wolves" and all.

[AcesandEights]

And I stick by my position too. If we HPOTD'ers ever end up in the zombie apocalypse together, I'll be keeping a close eye on you, Wyld! :lol:;):lol::p:lol::D



Sorry, MZ, but I don't think you'd ever see it coming. One second you'd be puling a Romero collectible (attached to a 6 wt fishing line) out of a junk pile and the next you'd be surrounded by a horde of zombies with W's on their foreheads. The W's, in this case, are short for "Wyld just killed your ass." :skull:

[MinionZombie]

Spinning off from DayoftheZ's comment about the scene in the car - if you found yourself in that situation, how would you try and stay alive?


@Minion:
For the record, the trait most commonly used as a descriptive of me by those who are close friends and family are words like Loyal, Devoted, Protective (sometime Over-Protective). The way I grew up taught me life is Us Vs Them, and taking too long to decide who's "Us" and who's "Them" gets people hurt, the wrong people. Made that mistake twice, not going for the hat trick. And that's in the real civilized world. So my biases are out in the open.

I was speaking in jest in the context of the discussion here on HPOTD, hence the screed of jovial emoticons that followed. It wasn't meant as some stain against your real-life character.


One thing I noticed was that the car door Daryl was sat next to was unlocked. The first zombie in Night of The Living Dead would have had that door in a jiffy!!!:D

Kudos to Carl for staying inside the house!!!:p

1) That drove me crazy! Even though they were pressed up against the car (making it pretty hard for them to pull the door open), I'd still have that lock down nice and safe anyway!

2) :lol::lol::lol: He's sitting there doing the babysitting and missing all the action. :D


Sorry, MZ, but I don't think you'd ever see it coming. One second you'd be puling a Romero collectible (attached to a 6 wt fishing line) out of a junk pile and the next you'd be surrounded by a horde of zombies with W's on their foreheads. The W's, in this case, are short for "Wyld just killed your ass." :skull:

:lol::lol::lol:

Good thing I'm not really one for collectibles, then. :p

Man, living in the apocalypse would be such hard work and there'd be no telly either (boring!!!) ... I'd find the nearest cliff and fling myself off it ... but then again if everyone was infected then I'd resurrect as a mangled zombie at the base of said cliff ... so I guess I'd have to just damn well go all Mad Max anyway, like it or lump it ... put together a snazzy outfit, look through the thesaurus for a ludicrous new name, declare myself King of some random domain like a bakery or, no, let's think big - a local supermarket - and spend my days eating stale cereal straight out of the box. :D

[UndeadHippo]

back to form this week. the opening shot was a car wreck. we've missed those!

Father Gabriel: he shuts people out, they die. He leaves the door open, people die. guy can't catch a break.

Are we assuming the two wolves we've seen are the only members of the pack? it seems like an awful lot of setup (and resultant carnage) for just those two guys, thankfully Morgan has taken several levels in badass. good to have him back.

and, I hate to disagree with Ricks "zombie kill of the week", but for me it was Daryl and his triple chain decapitation. The producers have obviously been teasing Glenn's ultimate fate for a few weeks, and I honestly thought they were going to go that way this episode. Then they buried him under walkers, and i thought they might do the Andrea bait-and-switch and give someone else his story. now, i'm beginning to think were going to follow the comics VERY closely with the whole Alexandria safe zone story :)

[Moon Knight]

I am very surprised yet very pleased on how Alexandria is being portrayed on the show. All the added tension and adventure outside the gates make this version far superior. My only complaint is Andrea being replaced by Sasha. Can they kill her already?

If they keep this storytelling quality up then next season, oh my next season will be incredible.

[MinionZombie]

Agreed. I've been very pleased by this season - even the 'weakest' episode (the one with Beth in the hospital) had plenty happening in it, unlike the one weak episode in season 4 ("Still"), which didn't have much going on for itself ... so what I'm trying to say is, is that season 5 was thumbs up throughout.

I also think that, over the piece, they made better musical choices this season than last ... and generally it's been great work all-round from all involved. :cool:

[MoonSylver]

Man, living in the apocalypse would be such hard work and there'd be no telly either (boring!!!) ... I'd find the nearest cliff and fling myself off it ... but then again if everyone was infected then I'd resurrect as a mangled zombie at the base of said cliff ... so I guess I'd have to just damn well go all Mad Max anyway, like it or lump it ... put together a snazzy outfit, look through the thesaurus for a ludicrous new name, declare myself King of some random domain like a bakery or, no, let's think big - a local supermarket - and spend my days eating stale cereal straight out of the box. :D

https://data.archive.moe/board/tv/thumb/1401/77/1401776277362s.jpg

You a Lord Humungous type...?

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20131002034747/villains/images/8/8d/Theduke.jpeg

...or you favor The Duke? (He was A-number-1 after all...) :lol:

[shootemindehead]

More "Lord Hummus" I think.

[Moon Knight]

"There has been too much violence. Too much pain. But I have an honorable compromise. Just walk away. Give me your pump, the oil, the gasoline, and the whole compound, and I'll spare your lives. Just walk away and we'll give you a safe passageway in the wastelands. Just walk away and there will be an end to the horror."

[Neil]

Little confused about the Wolves?

So are they suppose to be a huge group, or are they just the two guys we saw? And why are they bothering to nick peoples stuff when they seem to have a whole food depot to hand?

[MinionZombie]

Little confused about the Wolves?

So are they suppose to be a huge group, or are they just the two guys we saw? And why are they bothering to nick peoples stuff when they seem to have a whole food depot to hand?

I'd imagine there's more of them - "Wolves Not Far" - so those two guys aren't it, they're just members of a larger group I'd say.

We don't know what's in the depot, we never got that far, and I don't think it's their base of operations either - it seems more like a way to lure people in for nefarious reasons, hence the elaborate trap.

[Neil]

I'd imagine there's more of them - "Wolves Not Far" - so those two guys aren't it, they're just members of a larger group I'd say.

We don't know what's in the depot, we never got that far, and I don't think it's their base of operations either - it seems more like a way to lure people in for nefarious reasons, hence the elaborate trap.

...and we have no idea why they are collecting/killing people either. ie: All the limbs/torsoes!

Grrrr... Damn this show! :)

[Moon Knight]

I'm assuming they only showed 2 guys because they didn't cast anyone else and felt they didn't need to for this season. The opening scene reminded me of a Tarantino flick. The wide shot of the villain walking up to Morgan with gun drawn before calmly taking a seat and having a conversation. Not to mention MZ's theory that they already had killed Morgan in the prior episode so I was scared as shit haha. Great scene. That was an obvious swerve to make everyone even more nervous about that scene. The writers knocked it out the park this season.

[UndeadHippo]

couple of extra points: The Wolves held Morgan up with an empty gun and attempted the Velociraptor gambit (one obvious threat holds your attention while the real killer sneaks around behind you). These "wolves" may be more like Hyenas, actually quite weak and reduced to scavenging to stay alive... they obviously have sharp wits as the trailer trap (and the reset) are genius.

Symbolism: MoonKnight already pointed out the red riding hood parallel, but what about Sasha laying down in the grave with the walkers, down among the dead men? Sasha feels dead inside after losing Tyreese and Bob which leeds her to seek the guidance of a higher power in the form of Gabriel.

Unfortunately, Gabriel has his own issues. He approaches the walker, arms outstretched, expecting to die. but when confronted with the reality of his own mortality, he fights. we all know just how messy most characters get from killing walkers, and yet Gabriels' white shirt remains clean. does this symbolize his conscience or soul also remaining clean? His coming to terms with the fact that walkers are not the people they once were, and that violence is sometimes necessary to survive?

He was obviously shaken by the encounter, but may have had an awakening of sorts, exactly the type the Alexandrians need. it's a tad ironic that Gabriels' own moment of zombie-apocalypse-clarity may have lead directly to the scene at the meeting....

[shootemindehead]

"Wolves Not Far" written in the same fashion as "Don't Dead Open Inside" from the first episode.

Hmmmm...

:lol:

[Wyldwraith]

First @Minion: I know you were kidding around. Re-reading what I wrote I could see how it sounded defensive, my bad. What I was meaning to highlight was an admission of my own bias regarding an Us Vs Them sort of mentality.

Second @Sandrock: I've got to VEHEMENTLY disagree with you here. When a sociopath strolls up to you, sticks a gun in your face and, when you tell him he can have everything of value you possess, informs you he/she requires your life as well, THEN indicates this is what they do as a long-term vocation....If you get the upper hand as Morgan did, and now you have these two SELF-AVOWED sadistic sociopaths completely in your power and you choose to let them go? How are you NOT directly responsible for what they do? If you'd killed them then red hoodie guy doesn't get murdered by them (for starters). Morgan was in essence the embodiment of the crossroads that determined if Red Hoodie Guy gets murdered or not.

[Neil]

Second @Sandrock: I've got to VEHEMENTLY disagree with you here. When a sociopath strolls up to you, sticks a gun in your face and, when you tell him he can have everything of value you possess, informs you he/she requires your life as well, THEN indicates this is what they do as a long-term vocation....If you get the upper hand as Morgan did, and now you have these two SELF-AVOWED sadistic sociopaths completely in your power and you choose to let them go? How are you NOT directly responsible for what they do? If you'd killed them then red hoodie guy doesn't get murdered by them (for starters). Morgan was in essence the embodiment of the crossroads that determined if Red Hoodie Guy gets murdered or not.
Good point. But then Morgan did seemingly try to finish them off potentially by putting them in the car and attracting walkers using the horn!

ps: How are horns still working on cars after all this time? :)

[MinionZombie]

Good point. But then Morgan did seemingly try to finish them off potentially by putting them in the car and attracting walkers using the horn!

ps: How are horns still working on cars after all this time? :)

Actually Lennie James said that Morgan's intention with the horn was to make sure there were no walkers about ... I read it like you did too, so the actuality was a little bit surprising, but then again it does fit into his newfound philosophy that all life is precious.

Of course, even if he had have killed those two, it's quite possible that Red Riding Hood might have stumbled across other members of the Wolves gang ... but it is fair to say that Morgan does have some responsibility in the matter ... however, it could just as easily go another way: Morgan kills them, their gang discover it (perhaps even witness it) and track him down, and he suffers an even worse fate.

What will bring The Wolves to Alexandria though, will likely be Aaron's dropped bag (which contained the photos - interesting to see a pic of Rick and Carl, after Michonne pointed out in an earlier episode that there were no people in the pictures he was carrying) ... it'll take them a while to figure out where that place is (they are about 50 miles away from Alexandria, according to Daryl/Aaron - when they were outside the gates of Del Arno Foods).

As for car horns - same way that petrol isn't breaking down and becoming ineffective - artistic license. :D Although it was nice in season 4 that Daryl resurrected a car battery from the shelf of that kudzu-covered garage. When there's time to include something like that it's nice that they do - it illustrates just another way in which the zombie apocalypse is such a drag to be living in. :D

[Neil]

What will bring The Wolves to Alexandria though, will likely be Aaron's dropped bag (which contained the photos - interesting to see a pic of Rick and Carl, after Michonne pointed out in an earlier episode that there were no people in the pictures he was carrying) ... it'll take them a while to figure out where that place is (they are about 50 miles away from Alexandria, according to Daryl/Aaron - when they were outside the gates of Del Arno Foods).

TBH - We still don't really know what they're all about? If we assume they broke into Noah's complex, then clearly they have numbers/strength, and clearly they like chopping up people for some reason?

[facestabber]

Wylde, some people are just not cut out to kill. I disagree with Morgans decision. F*ck those pr*cks. They would have not been allowed to awake from their KO'd state in my world. I can't blame Morgan for every evil deed they do now though. He just can't kill. Some people are the sheep, some are the wolves and some are the sheep dog. And being that this is TWD his decision will come back to haunt.

[DayoftheZ]

Wylde, some people are just not cut out to kill. I disagree with Morgans decision. F*ck those pr*cks. They would have not been allowed to awake from their KO'd state in my world. I can't blame Morgan for every evil deed they do now though. He just can't kill. Some people are the sheep, some are the wolves and some are the sheep dog. And being that this is TWD his decision will come back to haunt.

Fact is if they made the right decision The Walking Dead would be dull television.

I don’t feel that trying to maintain a moral compass even in those dark times. Morgan has come through losing a wife and son and he has found a way of surviving that suits him. He looks well fed clean, and well rested so he must be doing something right.

I can’t blame Morgan for Little Dead Riding Hood being killed by the Big Bad Wolves because we don’t know what led to him being caught. He was being tracked by Daryl and Aaron and seemed oblivious so he may have made an error. As MZ said it won’t be his fault they turn up at Alexandria either it is Aarons so for me Morgan’s conscience is clear (pun intended).

[MoonSylver]

"Wolves Not Far" written in the same fashion as "Don't Dead Open Inside" from the first episode.

Hmmmm...

:lol:

http://www.kilroywashere.org/001-Pages/RegisteredKilroy/KroySquare.jpg

:lol:

[MinionZombie]

TBH - We still don't really know what they're all about? If we assume they broke into Noah's complex, then clearly they have numbers/strength, and clearly they like chopping up people for some reason?

They're a bunch of bastards you'd never want to cross ... so generally rather dangerous (and crafty!) by the looks of things. I think I read something, or heard something, in which the Wolves were summed up as having the skills of Daryl Dixon, but without the sense of moral purpose ... so that sounds pretty scary to me!!! :eek:

We'll find out more about these folks in season 6 - that'll be a main thrust I'd imagine - but it's also cool to hear Gimple say (in a statement read on Talking Dead) that the walkers are going to pose a serious threat in the first half of season 6. No spoilers, but having reminded myself of this kind of point in time in the comics, I cannot wait to see how they put some of that walker danger on screen! :hyper:


As MZ said it won’t be his fault they turn up at Alexandria either it is Aarons so for me Morgan’s conscience is clear (pun intended).

And even then you couldn't really blame Aaron that much - they were in a tight spot, he dropped his bag, they had no idea of the Wolves, and the compound was filled with walkers so he couldn't retrieve it - plus, after being through that, you know that bad people could be close, so you don't want to hang around even for your bag (he might also not be thinking "photos = clues") ... they were 50 miles away from Alexandria, too.

[DayoftheZ]

And even then you couldn't really blame Aaron that much - they were in a tight spot, he dropped his bag, they had no idea of the Wolves, and the compound was filled with walkers so he couldn't retrieve it - plus, after being through that, you know that bad people could be close, so you don't want to hang around even for your bag (he might also not be thinking "photos = clues") ... they were 50 miles away from Alexandria, too.

Totally agree with all that. I'm interested in the fact that walkers with W on their heads have been seen pretty close to Alexandria (where Rick hid the gun for one). So either the Wolves have been close to the safe zone or the walkers have flocked towards fresh meat.

[Moon Knight]

They're a bunch of bastards you'd never want to cross ... so generally rather dangerous (and crafty!) by the looks of things. I think I read something, or heard something, in which the Wolves were summed up as having the skills of Daryl Dixon, but without the sense of moral purpose ... so that sounds pretty scary to me!!! :eek:

We'll find out more about these folks in season 6 - that'll be a main thrust I'd imagine - but it's also cool to hear Gimple say (in a statement read on Talking Dead) that the walkers are going to pose a serious threat in the first half of season 6. No spoilers, but having reminded myself of this kind of point in time in the comics, I cannot wait to see how they put some of that walker danger on screen! :hyper:


This period is amazing and I cannot wait!

Something else I've been thinking of, are the Wolves carving "W"s on Walker heads or are they killing humans and carving them up before they turn?

I kinda wish they explained the Wolves more BUT at the same time I'm happy they left us with plenty questions going into season 6. The writers made the right call.

[Wyldwraith]

Guys I just have to dig in and vehemently disagree,
All results are causal in nature. NOTHING in the world happens that isn't the result of all the other things that lead up to said event. Like dominoes in a line, the one falling strikes the next, causing it to fall, into the next and so on.

The DIFFERENCE is that, with most of our decisions we can't be held liable for many second-step-removed outcomes of our actions, because we lack the ability to perceive what will happen in the future. HOWEVER, there are times, Morgan's encounter with the Wolves wherein he learned that they're not in it for survival's sake but rather the "JOY OF KILLING" and his subsequent fight with and victory over said Wolves being one of those times, where the person DOES have a crystal-clear picture of the future outcomes depending on the choice they make in the here-and-now.

The "Question of Responsibility" is this: Was Morgan factually aware there was a 99.999999% chance that if he allowed the two Wolves to live, barring their immediate demise from some other cause after their regaining consciousness (Like a Walker encounter), that those two Wolves would IN FACT **MURDER** the very next human being they stumbled across?

I believe it to be inarguable that Yes, Morgan WAS AWARE that those 2 Wolves would Murder again if given the opportunity. Therefore, Morgan could indeed with 99.9999% accuracy predict that the result of his decision to spare the 2 Wolves would, IN POINT OF FACT result in the homicide of each and every person the Wolves were successful in ambushing From that point forward!

If an action of PURE UNADULTERATED *EVIL* is a) Foreseeable with 99-100% accuracy, and (Here's the KEY PART) b) COMPLETELY WITHIN ONE'S POWER TO PREVENT, Then the "Onus to Act" is borne by the one who can foresee and control that outcome. Failing to prevent an act of Pure Unadulterated Evil (the repetition of descriptive terms is deliberate, for emphasis) that this person can prevent at a) No tangible risk, and b) No material cost (Such as endangering the life of a loved one), is EXACTLY EQUIVALENT to killing their victims with the same premeditated deliberation and malice aforethought as the Wolves themselves.

Claiming Moral Imperative (Such as a refusal to kill ANY HUMAN, under ANY AND ALL CIRCUMSTANCES) simply CANNOT be defended on the grounds of morality.
Now, stating that one is TOO WEAK, and *ACTUALLY* incapable of killing the avowed sadistic sociopathic serial killers because of one's impassable visceral reaction at the thought of killing is a different matter. I can accept as, let's call it an "Article of Faith", there are by definition many people lacking the courage and intestinal fortitude to do the right thing. But that's a matter of a fundamental emotional and psychological (and perhaps even physical, some people are after all such weaklings they cannot bear up under the sight of blood even to save and innocent life) weakness.

NOT a matter of Morality. Putting one's "Moral Code" on so high a pedestal that you are willing to see innocent people die in terror, begging for their lives from those who will a) Enjoy their begging and probably become sexually aroused by said begging, and b) Are fundamentally empty of the quality of human empathy, thereby precluding the faintest possibility of mercy is, by definition, the very HEIGHT of SELFISHNESS and a fundamental failure to accept personal responsibility for doing what is manifestly the right thing to do (Killing the Wolves).

Morgan is therefore EQUALLY RESPONSIBLE for the death of Red Hoodie Man and all subsequent victims, on the grounds of a fundamental LACK of empathy and the ABSOLUTE DEVALUATION of the lives of every person the Wolves will encounter and kill.

Morgan could easily foresee that these two serial killers, with no other accomplices even, could cold-bloodedly murder dozens if not hundreds of people before someone else with the opportunity and basic decency to end the lives of these monsters appears.

While I can as a matter of civility cordially agree to disagree with those who feel differently, I will end by saying this: If I were in TWD world, aware of what transpired between Morgan and the 2 Wolves, and the subsequent murder of Red Hoodie Man, I would, for moral reasons and with premeditation, shoot Morgan in the back of the head from a safe distance at my earliest possible convenience as punishment for his cold-blooded murder of Red Hoodie Man. I don't know how I could possibly give more emphasis to the strength of my moral conviction in the matter of this hypothetical situation. Stripped down to the basics, not only would I execute Morgan for his crime, I'd feel good about myself for having done it, and would proudly pass it on as a significant achievement in my life to my kids and grandkids when they were old enough to grasp the subtleties of the event.

Poscript: In a Post-Apocalyptic world, whose Survivors presumably retain the Hope of one day restarting civilization and thereby reclaiming all that Mankind had lost, I would not want such a moral weakling potentially propagating and spreading his moral deficit to the next generation as a sort of "Socially Communicable Disease." A renewed humanity would be served best by the removal before said renewal of all those who are willing to personally sacrifice innocent Men, Women and Children because they're too SQUEAMISH to do what any IMBECILE could determine was The Right Thing.

- - - Updated - - -

Update:
I concede my convictions may appear rather extreme, so let's try something else because I *GENUINELY DO NOT UNDERSTAND* this. How and why could Morgan NOT be as responsible for the killing as the 2 Wolves he chose not to eliminate?

There has to be more to it than a simplistic "The Wolves chose to commit the actual Murder, not Morgan. Therefore Morgan isn't as guilty/responsible as they."
Or is that really what it comes down to? Because like I said, I honestly don't get and can't imagine how, in this case at least* my position on this particular matter isn't Self Evident to all.

Can someone explain this to me? If it helps I'll even promise not to argue the point further...but I am TRULY mystified by this difference in perspective. Put most simply, I feel like (as a similar example) someone is arguing with me that the color red is not, in point of fact, red. I am just as confused as to how someone else could be convinced that the responsibility for the Homicide of Red Hoodie Man isn't, at the VERY LEAST, *EQUALLY SHARED* by both Morgan and the 2 Wolves.

Help me out here?

[zomtom]

I must admit I agree with much of what you say. I too believe Morgan is indirectly responsible for the deaths of anybody else the two Wolves murder after his encounter with them. It is obviously a given those two creeps were murderers. I however STRONGLY disagree with your statement you would shoot Morgan in the back of the head. Even in an apocalyptic world; that just is NOT right.

[Wyldwraith]

@Zomtom: Fair enough friend. Different people take Right Vs Wrong to different extremes. I'm something of an Absolutist, but I can respect the opinions of others sufficiently to say I understand why you see it that way, and I would vehemently defend your right to your opinion.

I simply offer this as, let's say food for thought. If you were protecting your family (or whatever parts of it still survived) in a zombie apocalypse, and someone came along and, let's say tortured, raped and murdered one of your female family members...and then, in the midst of your grieving you met a man who told you about having been attacked by men whose descriptions matched those of the men who killed your mother, daughter, sister or neice..and he told you about how he got the better of them and knocked them out...after they'd told him they wanted to kill him just for the pleasure of it...would you trust that man and want him around the people you love? What if you're off foraging for supplies and he's at your camp with your family...and more killers show up? Him being unwilling to take a life for any reason would limit him dramatically as a potential protector, make him much more likely to die in a fight with said killers, and thereby leave your family unprotected.

You might well be willing to shoulder such a risk. I couldn't, in good conscience, let this man continue on his way and maybe join another group of survivors who come to eventually believe they can rely on him in a worst-case-scenario. I'd feel responsible if his Code of Pacifism got someone else's family killed. But that's my own highly subjective moral code at work.

[AcesandEights]

I simply offer this as, let's say food for thought. If you were protecting your family (or whatever parts of it still survived) in a zombie apocalypse, and someone came along and, let's say tortured, raped and murdered one of your female family members...and then, in the midst of your grieving you met a man who told you about having been attacked by men whose descriptions matched those of the men who killed your mother, daughter, sister or neice..and he told you about how he got the better of them and knocked them out...after they'd told him they wanted to kill him just for the pleasure of it...would you trust that man and want him around the people you love? What if you're off foraging for supplies and he's at your camp with your family...and more killers show up? Him being unwilling to take a life for any reason would limit him dramatically as a potential protector, make him much more likely to die in a fight with said killers, and thereby leave your family unprotected.

You might well be willing to shoulder such a risk. I couldn't, in good conscience, let this man continue on his way and maybe join another group of survivors who come to eventually believe they can rely on him in a worst-case-scenario. I'd feel responsible if his Code of Pacifism got someone else's family killed. But that's my own highly subjective moral code at work.

So you would murder a pacifist who you feel indirectly caused the death of someone else he never met, on the off chance they may once again fail to murder someone in a manner that you would approve of again at some hypothetical point in the future? That does not even seem to approach an ethically sound point of view.

[MoonSylver]

Remind me when the zombpocalypse hits never to assign Wyld to guard duty on the Dali Lama. :lol:

[Moon Knight]

Man, Wyld is a dangerous, dangerous man. :D

[Wyldwraith]

So you would murder a pacifist who you feel indirectly caused the death of someone else he never met, on the off chance they may once again fail to murder someone in a manner that you would approve of again at some hypothetical point in the future? That does not even seem to approach an ethically sound point of view.

1) In my considered and deliberate opinion (Which is, in no wise, some form of Absolute Truth) I don't feel Morgan "Indirectly Caused" that death. As I stated before, I consider 99-100% Accurate Foreknowledge of a Sociopathic Serial Killer's ongoing Modus Operandi, coupled with absolute control of the fates of said Sociopathic Serial Killers to be a DIRECT CAUSE of loss of innocent human lives. While you may of course disagree with my position, let's at least be clear that I'm not so homicidal I would take a human life because an INDIRECT AND UNFORESEEABLE CONSEQUENCE of one of their choices lead to an extremely negative outcome. That's irrational, and immoral. The key determining factor here for me is the near-100% accuracy of Morgan's foreknowledge of the Wolves intended and ongoing murder spree, coupled with his ability to end said murder spree at no tangible risk to himself or others.

2) Morgan is very vehement, and highly communicative concerning his "All Human Life is Precious" moral position. I do not define what another man straight up informs me will be his continued and future limit on the level of violence he is willing to employ against even the most evil and depraved of human-shaped monsters to be an "Off Chance" of what that man will do. Rather I would define that as the almost-certainty of his intended future life-choices. Near certainty doesn't equal "Off Chance", which implies (at best) a 50-50% chance of something happening, and (at worst) a substantially worse-than-even % chance of what that man will do.

3) As of the present moment, Team Rick has encountered 1) The Governor and his two Hyper Hard-Core Homicidal Lackeys, 2) Randall's Group, 3) The Claimers, and 4) The Terminians...and very very soon they'll be meeting 5) The Wolves. That's FIVE GROUPS of homicidal psychopaths and/or sociopaths, with a few cannibals thrown in for good measure, in LESS THAN THREE YEARS! So it is FACT to say that approximately 20-30% of the live human beings Team Rick have encountered are murderous predators of one stripe or another. With such a high % of the population of still-living humans being murderous predators, it is NOT some sort of low-probability hypothetical to say that Team Rick will in future encounter more murderous predators.

4) Preventing self-avowed SERIAL KILLERS from taking the lives of people who are as innocent as it is possible to be and still continue surviving the apocalypse by KILLING said SERIAL KILLERS is not something I define as "Murder." Anymore than shooting a rabid dog until it dies to prevent its otherwise imminent attack on a defenseless child is "Murdering" said dog. Killing, yes. Murder? No. The term murder by its nature contains the concept of the MORALLY UNJUSTIFIABLE use of lethal force against another human being.

Now, I will be the very first one to concede that some of my points are, partly or wholly, subjective with regards to the moral code of the one whose defining and applying these terms. Ie: Your definition of what constitutes murder may differ wildly from my definition. A system of STANDARDIZED laws, as part of a legal system replete with numerous efforts to maintain impartiality in those tasked with deciding Guilt or Acquittal exists as part of a civilized society due precisely to individual moral codes being by nature highly subjective. If said civilization collapses, flawed as it might be, those subjective moral codes will be all that remains to separate us from monsters like the Terminians.

Finally, we return to the basic conundrum I was asking about. While I can easily grasp that others might have wildly different individual moral codes than my own, I fail to comprehend how my moral code seems so "Unsound" to others. I apply it consistently, which includes holding myself to the same standard I use to judge the actions of others. It isn't self-contradicting in any aspect, and it's readily comprehensible (Conceptually I mean, in that others can understand what I mean by my definitions. Not that they necessarily agree.) Lastly, my position is at least as viable as a shared social contract utilized by a group which includes me as many other permutations of subjective moral codes could be for other groups.

Again, I concede that my views are arguably quite subjective. Yet the concept of culpability shared between the active perpetrator and the passive enabler of said perpetrator is the basis of the legal conceptualization of a criminal conspiracy. If one's chosen act is a factual necessity for even the POSSIBILITY of the criminal act to exist, moral culpability can attach. Yes, we're all agents possessed of free will. Yes, that means the one who CHOOSES to commit an evil act will always bear responsibility for said evil act. But if I know you intend to commit an evil act, that you WILL IN FACT commit said evil act if not physically prevented from doing so, and I have the opportunity to safely and effortlessly stop you yet choose not to, I BELIEVE I would share in the responsibility. Put more simply: Yes, you have the free will to choose to murder someone, but I also have free will and I can choose to stop you, or choose not to stop you. There is an OBJECTIVE "Onus to Act" when it comes to use of our free will in such a situation.

"The only thing necessary for Evil's triumph is for Good men to do nothing."

[MinionZombie]

Behind The Scenes Photos from 5x16:
http://dailydead.com/35-behind-the-scenes-photos-from-the-walking-dead-season-5-finale/

Looking at these reminded me of the awesome rod puppet they used when Daryl was scrambling underneath the trailers - gotta love a bit of classic old school effects work. :thumbsup::):cool:

http://c534909.r9.cf2.rackcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Walking-Dead-Season-5-Finale-BTS-010.jpg

[Moon Knight]

Behind The Scenes Photos from 5x16:
http://dailydead.com/35-behind-the-scenes-photos-from-the-walking-dead-season-5-finale/

Looking at these reminded me of the awesome rod puppet they used when Daryl was scrambling underneath the trailers - gotta love a bit of classic old school effects work. :thumbsup::):cool:

http://c534909.r9.cf2.rackcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Walking-Dead-Season-5-Finale-BTS-010.jpg

I LOVE practical effects. The Walkers keep looking better and better too. No one does it greater than Nicotero and his team!

[facestabber]

I leave for a couple days, come back and see that Wylde has been on an epic posting extravaganza. Good reading all around.

[kidgloves]

I've seen speculation online that Rick didn't shoot Pete but was putting Reg out of his misery.

Anyone think this is possible/credible?

[MinionZombie]

I've seen speculation online that Rick didn't shoot Pete but was putting Reg out of his misery.

Anyone think this is possible/credible?

Nah, I don't buy that theory. The way Rick was facing when he was holding the gun to when he looked up at Morgan/Daryl/Aaron was the same, and in the way people were placed, Reg and Deanna were off to Rick's right hand side and sort of behind him. Plus Deanna was holding Reg - so Rick would have shot Deanna's arm - and there wasn't enough time for her to step back (she'd certainly not just dump his fresh-as-fresh-can-be corpse on the ground!)