Contains Spoilers! TWD 6x03 "Thank You" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN* [Archive]

MinionZombie

26-Oct-2015, 05:10 PM

*BAM! Right in the feels* :(

The Glenn situation - considering that Steven Yeun wasn't on Talking Dead this week (why would you kill off a main, Season 1 character without having them on Talking Dead?), and that Gimple alluded to the story being wrapped up/concluded/whatever (next week) and saying things like "flash backs", "a version of Glenn", "or parts" makes me think this:

1) Nicholas' body fell on top of Glenn - the gore was from his body (in one shot the 'chest cavity' does seem too high up as it seems to block Glenn's chin from the view of the camera briefly in a way that wouldn't make sense from that particular camera angle). However, in other shots it seems more convincing that they're Glenn's guts.

2) My theory goes like this: Glenn survives the alleyway herd but doesn't get out unscathed. Somehow he manages to scrabble away (perhaps a distraction draws the alleyway herd away, or at least the bulk of them) - but he's wounded (bitten), perhaps severely. Knowing Glenn, he'd likely stumble off in the direction of Alexandria to try and help somehow (or at the very least stand a chance of saying goodbye to Maggie). I think he'll get close to Alexandria - but succumb to his wounds - then he'll resurrect and join the herd that will (you'd imagine) attack Alexandria. I think in amongst the chaos Maggie will see Glenn as a walker - he'll certainly stand out as super fresh amongst all the gloopy rotten ones - and Maggie will have to put Walker Glenn down.

3) While we've had a few misdirections and red herrings here and there, we've never had a 'psych, they're actually just fine!' moment - people, please, let's wait and actually see what happens next week! We saw Hershel's watch, we got a callback to the first/second episode with the "dumbass" line over the walkie talkies, and we had Rick being so sure his guys would survive and the others wouldn't - I don't think you'd waste these things (and score the scene so emotionally) on a 'psych out'. While I'd desperately want Glenn to stay, I knew that - at some point - it was inevitable. It's sad and all, but it's The Walking Dead. Lori's death - for example - was horrific in all regards.

4) I also think that Glenn's death will play into Maggie's character in a significant way. The psychological toll will be huge!

5) The "In Memoriam" bit on Talking Dead didn't include Glenn - but technically we don't see conclusively. I think, especially considering the extended run time of next week's episode, this cliffhanger around Glenn's fate will be resolved in 6x04.

6) We've not seen one of our protagonists shambling about as a walker in a long time. We did get Hershel's decapitated head reanimated, but a full-on walker shambling about - who was once a member of our gang? We've not had that in a long time.

...

Other aspects - the alleyway scene in general was flippin' terrifying! No way out (although yeah, I also thought "TRY THAT BLOCKED STAIRWELL!" ... but it was quite blocked, you could easily get bitten while trying to climb over it, and Nicholas was trying to open up a gap in the fence to the left side) and all those groaning corpses coming at you - the stuff of nightmares!

Michonne giving Heath both barrels was excellent. Yeah, he's seen a few things and is far more capable than the majority of the Alexandrians, but compared to Team Rick? He ain't seen nothing yet - I loved his arc in this episode and how Michonne was wrapped up in it.

Yes, we do get a series of 'who are you anyway?' deaths of Alexandrians, but it serves a purpose - both narratively, and in terms of misdirection - the one/two punch of Nicholas and Glenn shook things up in a big way. Even the scene with Rick in the RV looking distraught (a very worrying sight) got me really tense - however, I'm pretty sure he gets out of that RV as there was a shot in the Comic-Con trailer in which he was running down a road clutching the AK-47 in his good hand (which, IIRC, we've not seen yet). Still though - I was screaming at Rick to get the hell out of that RV!

Also - Morgan's going to have to change his ways. The folks who attacked Rick are the same ones Morgan shooed away at Alexandria.

Glad that even the fodder characters had a bit of something to back them up (e.g. David's tale of how he met his wife - and how his experience, in some ways, mirrored Michonne's - plus the note he wrote to his wife ... also, the husband/wife dynamic feeds in to Glenn/Maggie ... so while there were some red shirts, which is frankly necessary in a show like this, there were some who did actually get some story to go along with them).

Just when you thought this episode was going to be a slightly more relaxed affair to provide build up to next week's extended episode ... you get kicked big time! :stunned:

...

TWD 6x03 Memes:
http://deadshed.blogspot.co.uk/2015/10/terrible-mystery-edition-walking-dead.html

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-M6931tYwDCc/Vi5XUvzxjjI/AAAAAAAAEVo/ZcLU8eXUI2U/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_6_Meme_Rick_When_Already_D own_Keeps_Kicking_6x03_DeadShed.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-A_m05g1kMHM/Vi5XTkm-ZGI/AAAAAAAAEVg/kTyD9Q4x84Q/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_6_Meme_Nicholas_Glenn_Wors t_Thank_You_Ever_6x03_DeadShed.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-1m4JZaZcQvk/Vi5XQ0vc5uI/AAAAAAAAEVc/7y3jy87jaI8/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_6_Meme_How_Fans_Think_You_ Could_Survive_This_DeadShed.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-b9IR9D3RaOY/Vi5XOs9aN2I/AAAAAAAAEVM/SKdgOhtL3AA/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_6_Meme_Hershel_Save_Guy_Ki ll_You_Risk_Your_Life_6x03_DeadShed.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/--97VFt91QsY/Vi5XQFxnXqI/AAAAAAAAEVY/IpWWuAZX5Rs/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_6_Meme_In_Memoriam_Talking _Dead_Glenn_What_Does_This_Mean_6x03_DeadShed.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-lty1ivo87cE/Vi5XV01oQXI/AAAAAAAAEV0/2KVIKM7ohJU/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_6_Meme_Says_Something_Abou t_Rick_Dies_Immediately_6x03_DeadShed.jpg

:)

facestabber

26-Oct-2015, 05:23 PM

It is not my wish that Glenn died but since they gave us that scene I sure hope he is in fact dead. Not because I dislike Glenn. Rather its the opposite. But the implausibility of him surviving that is just too far fetched. Granted we have seen Walkers leave a fresh kill full of meat to chase after other moving victims so is it possible something major distracted them as soon as the cameras left Glenn? Ok sure its possible. But I really dont like the idea of him surviving.

So we lost alot of characters that are meaningless. I'm not gonna rip the show for that. Meaningful deaths happen on this show. Quite alot actually. This show can't kill a main cast member at the frequency that some here may desire because then we wouldnt have much of a show left. Now I will agree that we see alot of cheap thrills and kills. It can be eye rolling at times but the whole completely out weights the complaints and nitpicks. The sneak attack zombie bites are a recycled bit no doubt. Wish we could get some more creativity.

I loved Michonne confronting Heath and proceeded to Michowned him. I really wish they'd sit the entire Alexandria town down by a campfire and tell them who the Gov was and the story of Terminus. These people just dont get it. Now I gotta say when the woman with the injured foot falls down on the sidewalk and the guy is pressed against the fence being devoured, is there anyone else here that is thinking MERCY KILL. I cant think of a more agonizing death then a Walker herd. One bullet through the skull is not much to ask. Our gang just pauses and watches. Have a heart guys/gals. Michonne is the most competent and lethal warrior of the entire group. Ever since her epic fistfight with the Gov, I consider myself a Michonne disciple.

If I heard right, Rick's mission was a 5 mile run to the RV? Thats a long friggin way. Looks like Morgan's gang of wolves nearly killed Rick. I enjoyed the AK through the wall. It was satisfying. I can only hope the RV has some good locks on it. The ignition on the RV should serve as a reminder that a plan that involves putting Sasha and Abraham in an old beat up car merely feet in front of a violent death is probably not a good idea. With as many deaths that have happened over this walker march I can see much resistance to Ricks leadership.

Overall after 3 episodes my favorite element is that the Walkers have become the threat that they should always be.

MinionZombie

26-Oct-2015, 06:12 PM

So we lost alot of characters that are meaningless. I'm not gonna rip the show for that. Meaningful deaths happen on this show. Quite alot actually. This show can't kill a main cast member at the frequency that some here may desire because then we wouldnt have much of a show left. Now I will agree that we see alot of cheap thrills and kills. It can be eye rolling at times but the whole completely out weights the complaints and nitpicks. The sneak attack zombie bites are a recycled bit no doubt. Wish we could get some more creativity.

The ignition on the RV should serve as a reminder that a plan that involves putting Sasha and Abraham in an old beat up car merely feet in front of a violent death is probably not a good idea.

Overall after 3 episodes my favorite element is that the Walkers have become the threat that they should always be.

Yep. If we were losing main characters constantly they'd barely qualify as main characters, nor would we actually get enough time with them to gain the shocking power of their demise. In this world a lot of people would die - and a lot of extraneous (to our show, but not in real life) Alexandrians would also die because they're not properly qualified to survive in this world. The ones who are more adept are sticking around (at the very least for a while in the case of Nicholas).

On the RV - the dashboard got riddled with gunfire - so the engine will have damage all riddled through it with the bullets and the fragments etc. That was why Rick couldn't get it started. As for the shitty car Abraham and Sasha are riding in, to be fair it only looks awful. It's the same car Aaron used when going out on runs to search for new residents - I'd imagine that functionally the car is in good working order. Perhaps they picked it because, when Aaron would leave it somewhere, it'd look abandoned to any possible passers by.

On the subject of Glenn - while there's been some speculation here and there - there was this video where Norman Reedus, seemingly quite sleepy, seems to confirm that Glenn is dead (or will be dead shortly).

8WEV13zWUlE

He says "Glenn" when they're all getting asked about people they'd want to bring back on the show and everyone gets a bit "oh shit!" nervous about it. He then says Michonne, but I'd wager that's a sudden attempt to try and cover up his blurted out spoiler. We don't see Reedus' face, but the reaction on the face of the others seems to suggest that Glenn dies ... we've just not seen the full evidence of it yet.

Clearly, heading in to a "90 minute" fourth episode (it'll be 65 minutes without the ads, I reckon), they want to try and make sure their ratings are good for 6x04 - so what do you do? You have a massive "what really happened?" cliffhanger in 6x03 that'll be answered the following week.

I've seen some people elsewhere saying "hide under the dumpster", but I don't know if there's enough room under there. It's hard to tell from the footage, but there might be a space you could fit in under there ... although you'd still be somewhat exposed, but it could provide a bit of shelter until the walkers move on (if you've hidden under someone else's body) ... but the walkers could easily see you go under there ... ... maybe knife one in the head and use it's body to cover the entrance to the under-the-dumpster cubby hole? That could allow Glenn to survive in terms of not being devoured completely.

I still think he's going to escape from there - but bitten and severely wounded - and die during next weeks' episode trying to head back to Alexandria. That's my theory, at least.

I saw speculation on MTV's site about mirroring references to the end of the first episode being a clue that Glenn will survive - but to be fair, Rick had far better chances of escape (and assistance, and he was safely ensconsed within a frickin' tank!). I see the similar imagery, but I think it'll only get Glenn so far. I'm sticking by my aforementioned theory.

Another thing I dug about this episode - Daryl's quandary over whether to help Rick or help Abraham/Sasha (ooh, FYI, the guy who gets shot in the leg is Sonequa Martin-Green's real-life husband) ... so another twist of the tension knife in that Daryl decided to return to A/S.

Moon Knight

26-Oct-2015, 07:38 PM

Wow, that some serious television! This season has been so brutal.

Rick was almost overwhelmed with fear in that last shot...something we don't see a lot.

Rest in peace, Glenn. :(

- - - Updated - - -

I've never been anything less than supportive of this show, but if they try and pull any "glenn somehow survived" kind of crap, I will be pissed off.

Oh don't get me wrong I won't like it either, I was commentating on those that still complain about the writing and logic in the show.

- - - Updated - - -

*BAM! Right in the feels* :(

The Glenn situation - considering that Steven Yeun wasn't on Talking Dead this week (why would you kill off a main, Season 1 character without having them on Talking Dead?), and that Gimple alluded to the story being wrapped up/concluded/whatever (next week) and saying things like "flash backs", "a version of Glenn", "or parts" makes me think this:

1) Nicholas' body fell on top of Glenn - the gore was from his body (in one shot the 'chest cavity' does seem too high up as it seems to block Glenn's chin from the view of the camera briefly in a way that wouldn't make sense from that particular camera angle). However, in other shots it seems more convincing that they're Glenn's guts.

2) My theory goes like this: Glenn survives the alleyway herd but doesn't get out unscathed. Somehow he manages to scrabble away (perhaps a distraction draws the alleyway herd away, or at least the bulk of them) - but he's wounded (bitten), perhaps severely. Knowing Glenn, he'd likely stumble off in the direction of Alexandria to try and help somehow (or at the very least stand a chance of saying goodbye to Maggie). I think he'll get close to Alexandria - but succumb to his wounds - then he'll resurrect and join the herd that will (you'd imagine) attack Alexandria. I think in amongst the chaos Maggie will see Glenn as a walker - he'll certainly stand out as super fresh amongst all the gloopy rotten ones - and Maggie will have to put Walker Glenn down.

3) While we've had a few misdirections and red herrings here and there, we've never had a 'psych, they're actually just fine!' moment - people, please, let's wait and actually see what happens next week! We saw Hershel's watch, we got a callback to the first/second episode with the "dumbass" line over the walkie talkies, and we had Rick being so sure his guys would survive and the others wouldn't - I don't think you'd waste these things (and score the scene so emotionally) on a 'psych out'. While I'd desperately want Glenn to stay, I knew that - at some point - it was inevitable. It's sad and all, but it's The Walking Dead. Lori's death - for example - was horrific in all regards.

4) I also think that Glenn's death will play into Maggie's character in a significant way. The psychological toll will be huge!

5) The "In Memoriam" bit on Talking Dead didn't include Glenn - but technically we don't see conclusively. I think, especially considering the extended run time of next week's episode, this cliffhanger around Glenn's fate will be resolved in 6x04.

6) We've not seen one of our protagonists shambling about as a walker in a long time. We did get Hershel's decapitated head reanimated, but a full-on walker shambling about - who was once a member of our gang? We've not had that in a long time.

...

Other aspects - the alleyway scene in general was flippin' terrifying! No way out (although yeah, I also thought "TRY THAT BLOCKED STAIRWELL!" ... but it was quite blocked, you could easily get bitten while trying to climb over it, and Nicholas was trying to open up a gap in the fence to the left side) and all those groaning corpses coming at you - the stuff of nightmares!

Michonne giving Heath both barrels was excellent. Yeah, he's seen a few things and is far more capable than the majority of the Alexandrians, but compared to Team Rick? He ain't seen nothing yet - I loved his arc in this episode and how Michonne was wrapped up in it.

Yes, we do get a series of 'who are you anyway?' deaths of Alexandrians, but it serves a purpose - both narratively, and in terms of misdirection - the one/two punch of Nicholas and Glenn shook things up in a big way. Even the scene with Rick in the RV looking distraught (a very worrying sight) got me really tense - however, I'm pretty sure he gets out of that RV as there was a shot in the Comic-Con trailer in which he was running down a road clutching the AK-47 in his good hand (which, IIRC, we've not seen yet). Still though - I was screaming at Rick to get the hell out of that RV!

Also - Morgan's going to have to change his ways. The folks who attacked Rick are the same ones Morgan shooed away at Alexandria.

Glad that even the fodder characters had a bit of something to back them up (e.g. David's tale of how he met his wife - and how his experience, in some ways, mirrored Michonne's - plus the note he wrote to his wife ... also, the husband/wife dynamic feeds in to Glenn/Maggie ... so while there were some red shirts, which is frankly necessary in a show like this, there were some who did actually get some story to go along with them).

Just when you thought this episode was going to be a slightly more relaxed affair to provide build up to next week's extended episode ... you get kicked big time! :stunned:

...

TWD 6x03 Memes:
http://deadshed.blogspot.co.uk/2015/10/terrible-mystery-edition-walking-dead.html

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-M6931tYwDCc/Vi5XUvzxjjI/AAAAAAAAEVo/ZcLU8eXUI2U/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_6_Meme_Rick_When_Already_D own_Keeps_Kicking_6x03_DeadShed.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-A_m05g1kMHM/Vi5XTkm-ZGI/AAAAAAAAEVg/kTyD9Q4x84Q/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_6_Meme_Nicholas_Glenn_Wors t_Thank_You_Ever_6x03_DeadShed.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-1m4JZaZcQvk/Vi5XQ0vc5uI/AAAAAAAAEVc/7y3jy87jaI8/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_6_Meme_How_Fans_Think_You_ Could_Survive_This_DeadShed.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-b9IR9D3RaOY/Vi5XOs9aN2I/AAAAAAAAEVM/SKdgOhtL3AA/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_6_Meme_Hershel_Save_Guy_Ki ll_You_Risk_Your_Life_6x03_DeadShed.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/--97VFt91QsY/Vi5XQFxnXqI/AAAAAAAAEVY/IpWWuAZX5Rs/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_6_Meme_In_Memoriam_Talking _Dead_Glenn_What_Does_This_Mean_6x03_DeadShed.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-lty1ivo87cE/Vi5XV01oQXI/AAAAAAAAEV0/2KVIKM7ohJU/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_6_Meme_Says_Something_Abou t_Rick_Dies_Immediately_6x03_DeadShed.jpg

:)

Always on point, my friend.

slayerized

26-Oct-2015, 09:02 PM

Here's a theory...

Maybe Glenn does die and yet Gimple say's we'll be seeing a "version" of him later on...

Maybe not next episode, hell maybe not even until next half of the season (closer to season finale) a certain Mr. Negan happens upon a zombified Glenn and dispatches him with Lucile...

With all this talk about Glenn I am surprised nobody is talking about the other big development in this episode - Rick's injury...

Does this set into motion events that will culminate in Rick losing his hand??

facestabber

26-Oct-2015, 09:09 PM

slayerized

26-Oct-2015, 09:24 PM

Dang Minion you're right. I forgot that wolves bullets struck the dash and is probable cause of RV's failure. Regardless I still don't like the idea of leading a herd like that. Especially with one car. If Daryl's bike fails he can jump in the car. But abraham and sasha arent fitting on the bike. Thats a 2 car job minimum. And lead car has second set of eyes on rear car at all times.

Funny you mention that -- during some of those scenes with Abraham and Sasha you can see a couple of red indicator lights on the dashboard...I was thinking "hmm...check engine light must be on!"

facestabber

26-Oct-2015, 09:32 PM

Funny you mention that -- during some of those scenes with Abraham and Sasha you can see a couple of red indicator lights on the dashboard...I was thinking "hmm...check engine light must be on!"

Good spot. I'm ashamed when I miss things like that. That is an example of why thats a shit job. I dont know how many top mechanics and autozones are left in that world but relying on an automobile with death 50 or so feet behind you is bad. If something starts to go wrong with the car the 2 people have seconds to decide to drive through problem or bail and pray they have the cardio to escape.

DayoftheZ

26-Oct-2015, 10:32 PM

Great episode, great series, great show.

Did anybody spot the retro blue "dawn of the dead" walker during the Glenn scene.

JDP

26-Oct-2015, 10:46 PM

]Other aspects - the alleyway scene in general was flippin' terrifying! No way out (although yeah, I also thought "TRY THAT BLOCKED STAIRWELL!" ... but it was quite blocked, you could easily get bitten while trying to climb over it, and Nicholas was trying to open up a gap in the fence to the left side) and all those groaning corpses coming at you - the stuff of nightmares!

That stairwell was hardly very well blocked. It was just a mattress and some wooden pallets. They could easily have pushed them aside, go up the stairs and then try to enter the building from there. Much better to take your chances with whatever might or might not be inside that building than the almost guaranteed death from an oncoming horde of zombies.

Always seek the path of least resistance. Climbing up a tall fence with barbed wire on top while a zombie horde is approaching is definitely not the easiest way out. Moving a mattress and a few wooden pallets to gain access to a stairwell that might offer you a way to escape is a much easier task.

Moon Knight

26-Oct-2015, 11:35 PM

Great episode, great series, great show.

Did anybody spot the retro blue "dawn of the dead" walker during the Glenn scene.

No, which Walker?

Edit: Nevermind yes! I noticed you mean the one that was actually painted retro and very fresh compared to the others right?

- - - Updated - - -

Here's a theory...

Maybe Glenn does die and yet Gimple say's we'll be seeing a "version" of him later on...

Maybe not next episode, hell maybe not even until next half of the season (closer to season finale) a certain Mr. Negan happens upon a zombified Glenn and dispatches him with Lucile...

With all this talk about Glenn I am surprised nobody is talking about the other big development in this episode - Rick's injury...

Does this set into motion events that will culminate in Rick losing his hand??

I doubt it. Rick's hand is always getting injured and to me that is just a homage or a scare for the comic book fans to pick up on. Also, part of Glenn can be baby Hershel? Perhaps.

DayoftheZ

26-Oct-2015, 11:39 PM

No, which Walker?

Edit: Nevermind yes! I noticed you mean the one that was actually painted retro and very fresh compared to the others right?

Yes thats the one. Its kind of stuck out to me but a nice nod at the same time.

JDP

26-Oct-2015, 11:49 PM

I doubt it. Rick's hand is always getting injured and to me that is just a homage or a scare for the comic book fans to pick up on. Also, part of Glenn can be baby Hershel? Perhaps.

Also, in this series we have already seen characters get cuts with blades that have been used to kill zombies, and they did not die or lose any body parts as a result. It would be strange if Rick's hand becomes so infected that it has to be amputated.

shootemindehead

27-Oct-2015, 01:37 AM

I sadfaced.

MinionZombie

27-Oct-2015, 10:23 AM

Regarding Rick's hand (comics references):

Kirkman has said in the past that he didn't realise in advance just how much of a pain in the ass cutting Rick's hand off in the comics would be - it affected everything thereafter - i.e. could Rick physically do something now? Plus it'd be a pain in the ass to work around a 'missing hand' in the show - the constant removal of a green sock around Lincoln's hand, or having to frame things carefully. Even with the loss of Hershel's leg eventually moved towards a 'prosthetic' leg which allowed the actor to just walk around on his own leg - albeit stiffly - without too much fancy FX work.

Rick's the main character, so I think cutting the hand off would be a significant headache production wise. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but it would be a pain. Perhaps it's just something to get people spooked ... and besides, yes, we've seen people cut with 'walker blood blades' before and survive just fine ... and, considering how much cardio Rick does in this episode running five sodding miles etc, you'd think the 'infection' (if there was to be such a thing in Rick's hand) would have spread beyond it by that point. When they cut Hershel's leg off it was within minutes of the bite. Rick's been out there for a while with that cut - an hour or so - and then even more, all while his heart is pumping hard and fast.

So I'd think it'd be a no to cutting the hand off - it just hinders him, kicks him when he's already down, makes him a little less capable to spite his heroics and going it alone earlier on.

As for the stairwell - I think there's much more junk piled up there than it might appear ... but, had I been there, I'd have said "more junk on the stairs!" just to make sure there was no confusion over the matter. Yes, you could try to climb all that stuff, but you'd still be stuck. If you pulled everything away the walkers could climb up after you - yes, you could fight them off, but they'd keep coming (even if they did crumple on the steps). Nicholas was trying to break through the fence to the left side but it wouldn't budge, and as for the fence at the end of the alleyway - it was covered with tarp, so they didn't see there were walkers back there under they started climbing it.

What we don't know - because we couldn't get a clear looksee - was how many walkers were on the other side of that fence. In production terms I'd think the majority of their players were on the camera side of the fence, so they threw up some old tarp to obscure the view beyond that fence. And, to be fair, when you're getting chased by that many walkers panic is going to set in - even for a seasoned professional walker killer like Glenn - he's in a town that he doesn't know, that he hasn't been able to map out from a safe place (e.g. the rooftops, a la his M.O. in season one when he didn supply runs), and his guide has crumbled like a house of cards in a stiff breeze. It was interesting that Nicotero (who played one of the walkers in that herd - right up close to the camera - was he the 'blue' one?) said how scary it is to face a herd of walker extras. There's the sheer force of them coming down on you, but also the noise they make. It's easy for us to be relatively calm watching it - but guaranteed that playground "I'm being chased so I'm gonna run" instinct kicks in big style.

Another moment I dug - when Rick gets the RV we see all those crushed walkers piled up at that corner - I loved that. It not only illustrates the mindless mentality of a walker herd, crushing their own without a care, but it also shows us the force of the herd.

Regarding Gimple's "version" of Glenn and what others have said within tags here (some comics referencing):
Yes! I think Maggie will be pregnant as well - I think she'll find out after discovering Glenn is dead and all the chaos has calmed down a bit, so it'll be a while before any such reveal happens, but it is a key part of her character's journey.

Neil

27-Oct-2015, 11:58 AM

Lol the hate is real in this thread. I will never understand why people complain but still watch every week.

Hate? More annoyance I'd say!

The episode certainly annoyed me! Far too many typical Hollywood "people doing dumb things"... People doing their ankles in (to slow the group down), not looking around so getting bitten by ninja invisible zombies, wandering down dead ends more secure than a prison, hiding in buildings and waiting until the worse time to come out, and it being the only building in the world without a rear exit to use etc etc :)

And Jesus! Did that lorry horn noise carry a looong way :)

JDP

27-Oct-2015, 12:23 PM

As for the stairwell - I think there's much more junk piled up there than it might appear ... but, had I been there, I'd have said "more junk on the stairs!" just to make sure there was no confusion over the matter. Yes, you could try to climb all that stuff, but you'd still be stuck. If you pulled everything away the walkers could climb up after you - yes, you could fight them off, but they'd keep coming (even if they did crumple on the steps). Nicholas was trying to break through the fence to the left side but it wouldn't budge, and as for the fence at the end of the alleyway - it was covered with tarp, so they didn't see there were walkers back there under they started climbing it.

What we don't know - because we couldn't get a clear looksee - was how many walkers were on the other side of that fence. In production terms I'd think the majority of their players were on the camera side of the fence, so they threw up some old tarp to obscure the view beyond that fence. And, to be fair, when you're getting chased by that many walkers panic is going to set in - even for a seasoned professional walker killer like Glenn - he's in a town that he doesn't know, that he hasn't been able to map out from a safe place (e.g. the rooftops, a la his M.O. in season one when he didn supply runs), and his guide has crumbled like a house of cards in a stiff breeze. It was interesting that Nicotero (who played one of the walkers in that herd - right up close to the camera - was he the 'blue' one?) said how scary it is to face a herd of walker extras. There's the sheer force of them coming down on you, but also the noise they make. It's easy for us to be relatively calm watching it - but guaranteed that playground "I'm being chased so I'm gonna run" instinct kicks in big style.

Look carefully at what is blocking that stairway. It's a mattress, some wooden pallets and some barrels. From one angle you can even see one corner where they could practically have crawled through the obstacles to get to the stairs. Not that difficult to just move them a bit and squeeze through, and even have time to put some of the stuff back to make it more difficult for the zombies to be able to follow you up the stairs.

Even if the zombies managed to get through the obstacles and start walking up the stairs you would have a better chance of holding them back than having to face the entire horde up front all at once (they tried that with guns and knives and they miserably failed. Too many of them coming at you from all directions! And the corpses of the ones that got killed did not slow down the ones coming behind either.) Once you have killed some zombies on the stairwell itself, their piling corpses will become yet another obstacle for them to get through, more stuff to slow them down. Their best chance of survival was that stairwell.

And of course, once you have climbed that stairwell the plan is not to remain idle either. While one person watches the zombies and takes appropriate action if any of them manage to go up the stairs the other one looks for any possible ways into the building.

Another thing: if they could have moved the dumpster closer to the blue building they actually could have attempted to climb to the roof (that wall was not very tall, the roof might be reached standing on the dumpster if they had been right next to the wall), but the dumpster looked too heavy for them to move it in time before the zombies reached them.

shootemindehead

27-Oct-2015, 01:19 PM

Moon Knight

27-Oct-2015, 01:31 PM

Hate? More annoyance I'd say!

The episode certainly annoyed me! Far too many typical Hollywood "people doing dumb things"... People doing their ankles in (to slow the group down), not looking around so getting bitten by ninja invisible zombies, wandering down dead ends more secure than a prison, hiding in buildings and waiting until the worse time to come out, and it being the only building in the world without a rear exit to use etc etc :)

And Jesus! Did that lorry horn noise carry a looong way :)

Neil, I agree 100% with you. The Walking Dead is definitely guilty of typical Hollywood tropes like the ankle spraining and it's beyond frustrating at this point. Tara did it twice in the same season!

That said, the show also does so much that is great that it far outweighs the bad for me. Love the book. Love the show. Both has flaws, but it's truly something special for this zombie fan.

- - - Updated - - -

You've had time to carefully assess the situation. Glenn and whatshisface didn't and were in a panic. They couldn't "look carefully" at anything.

People make bad decisions when they're in a panic.

I've only seen the episode once and I thought that the stairs were blocked, go up over the fence and maybe skootch across the fence and try to scale the building.

Whatshisface deciding to end it all kind of put a lid on any further action though.

Nailed it. In the heat of the moment, and I'm talking a really REALLY horrific moment, I would like to see how the average person handles making such decisions in a timely and smart manner. Glenn was also relying on a petrified Nicholas and that was his mistake. He tried giving him a chance and it got him in a terrifying and seemingly no way out situation.

JDP

27-Oct-2015, 01:49 PM

You've had time to carefully assess the situation. Glenn and whatshisface didn't and were in a panic. They couldn't "look carefully" at anything.

People make bad decisions when they're in a panic.

I've only seen the episode once and I thought that the stairs were blocked, go up over the fence and maybe skootch across the fence and try to scale the building.

Whatshisface deciding to end it all kind of put a lid on any further action though.

The very first time I was watching that sequence I was already thinking "try to make it up the stairs!" It immediately looked like the quickest way out of the zombie horde's path. Certainly not that tall fence with barbed wire waiting at the end of the alley. Maybe it would not have occurred to an inexperienced guy like Nicholas, but to someone with experience getting out of tight situations like Glenn? It should have crossed his mind while he was going down the alley looking for possible exits before reaching that dead end.

shootemindehead

27-Oct-2015, 02:01 PM

I'm sure it crossed everyone's mind, that's why they shot the camera to that direction in the first place. But climbing the fence, putting it between you and the horde following you and getting away looked the better option than getting stuck on the roof of a building in the middle of a town that's going to be full of flesh eating ghouls.

It didn't look like there were any or many zombies in the other side of the fence and it was scalable. It's only when the decision was made for the fence that the danger from zombies on the other side became apparent and by then the zombies on Glenn's side had caught up pretty much and negated the stairs option.

In other words, they were pretty buggered.

Andy

27-Oct-2015, 05:00 PM

Hi everybody, long time no post :)

First apologies for my absence, lifes short and im very busy.. i do still check in when i can!

Secondly, what a episode huh? Glenns dead for sure, even if Nicholas's body did "shield" him and thats what we saw getting torn to shreds, glenn is still pinned and surrounded by hundreds of walkers, for the show to maintain any credibility he must be dead.. i mean its not like he's tyreese or anything is it?

Thirdly, ricks hand.. we already know from TWD and FTWD that bites and blood contact do not cause infection, bites kill by bacteria or a unrelated infection to the resurrection.. everybody is already infected and to stop a bite from killing you it has to be amputated immediately, as in Herschel's case.. so if they were going to go with the rick losing his hand route, which they have already said they wont, then they have already left the amputation too long to prevent longterm damage.

I've read this thread but i havnt been following the previous ones so sorry if i raise anything thats already been said, but is anyone else thinking could Negan be the leader of the Wolves instead of the saviours?

MinionZombie

27-Oct-2015, 05:01 PM

Nailed it. In the heat of the moment, and I'm talking a really REALLY horrific moment, I would like to see how the average person handles making such decisions in a timely and smart manner. Glenn was also relying on a petrified Nicholas and that was his mistake. He tried giving him a chance and it got him in a terrifying and seemingly no way out situation.

I'm sure it crossed everyone's mind, that's why they shot the camera to that direction in the first place. But climbing the fence, putting it between you and the horde following you and getting away looked the better option than getting stuck on the roof of a building in the middle of a town that's going to be full of flesh eating ghouls.

It didn't look like there were any or many zombies in the other side of the fence and it was scalable. It's only when the decision was made for the fence that the danger from zombies on the other side became apparent and by then the zombies on Glenn's side had caught up pretty much and negated the stairs option.

Agreed. We've all made terrible decisions in the heat of the moment - and hell, we've all made terrible decisions when there's been no need to rush and plenty of time to think about it.

Personally, seasoned survivor or not, when you quickly find your options of escape dwindling while a herd of walkers is coming at you, I'd start to panic, especially with dead weight holding you back.

...

I'm starting to become more convinced that Glenn might survive in tact somehow - however - if this transpires they'd better have a good explanation that really shows the practicalities of how he'd survive unscathed. Crazy things happen all the time - like the Russian guy who survived not one but two lorries crashing inches away from him in a petrol station, or the guy on a motorbike who crashed into the back of a car before doing a flying somersault and landing - ON HIS FEET - on top of the car he crashed into as it continued moving at speed.

Insane things happen in the real world ... sometimes there's dumb luck ... but I do hope that, if it transpires that Glenn makes it out alive and unscathed, that they stage it convincingly and in a way that actually makes sense.

Also - if Glenn was getting his guts torn out, surely he'd have been coughing up buckets of blood - but he isn't. So it's blatantly Nicholas' body lying on top of him.

Now, just thinking about it - can being scratched by a walker harm you in this universe? We know that being sliced by a blade with walker blood on it doesn't do shit as "we're all infected" ... we know that if you get bitten you're screwed (unless you can cut off a bitten limb quickly) ... but do we know if being scratched/gouged by a walker's hands has any deadly effects? I'd imagine not ... so perhaps Glenn gets clawed a bunch, but not actually bitten as all the chompers come down on Nicholas' body lying on top of Glenn (who could play possum beneath it - and benefit from some kind of distraction that draws the alleyway herd elsewhere).

Like I said - the practical mechanics on how such a survival would work have to be solid in order to be believed. If he does make it out alive then this has been an epic troll by Gimple, AMC, et al.

Tyreese got swamped by a shedload of walkers in season four - seemed to 'surely die' from being outnumbered - but survived to live another season's worth ... although he did have a hammer, a bunch of adrenaline, and a standing position to help him out.

facestabber

27-Oct-2015, 05:04 PM

Moon Knight

27-Oct-2015, 05:23 PM

Glenn shouldn't make it out this alive. So much forshadowing and careful planning just so they can pull off a stunt and troll people? What do they gain from something like that? I don't think Glenn is done at this point but like Minion said, he doesn't make it back to Alexandria alive. The show will lose too much credibility if they pull something stupid like that. I love this "death" because it shows anyone can die in any situation and in any moment. That's where the appeal lies. He survives this and continues his journey unscathed and they lose all of that. It becomes just another mainstream show. Let's hope they finish this story the right way.

facestabber

27-Oct-2015, 05:28 PM

Glenn shouldn't make it out this alive. Too much forshadowing and careful planning just so they can pull off a stunt and troll people? What do they gain from something like that? I don't think Glenn is done at this point but like Minion said, he doesn't make it back to Alexandria alive. The show will lose too much credibility if they pull something stupid like that. I love this "death" because it shows anyone can die in any situation in any moment. That's where the appeal lies. He survives this and continues his journey unscathed and they lose all of that. It becomes just another mainstream show. Let's hope they finish this story the right way.

I agree Moon. I liked Glenn. Honorable guy. But he needs to be dead. Something like that scene should not be survivable. With all those mouths munching, we should be left with two skeletons.

shootemindehead

27-Oct-2015, 06:39 PM

Yeh, Glenn needs to be dead. There'll be waaaay too much internet sharting going on if it turns out the producers have jipped the audience and he some how gets out alive 1930's 'Flash Gordon' serial style.

I've just watched the alleyway sequence again and there are a matter of a few seconds between the camera panning to show the blocked stairs and the guys finding out that there are more than two zombies on the other side of the fence. By the time they've seen that, the other zombie group are nearly upon them, so the stairs was kind of a no go anyway, because the zombies would have been on top of them before they moved the first palette. There's still the option to climb the fence and shimmy across onto the roof, but Nicky boy wasn't interested it seems.

Either way they're pretty screwed. They end up on the roof with a shedload of rotters down below. Unless Glenn can contact Rick and form some plan.

Nicholas does fall onto Glenn, so there's a chance that it's his guts getting munched and not Glenn. But even so, if Glenn survives, it'll be a real "fuck you" to the audience IMHO. Nobody would be getting out of that situation.

BTW, those stairs lead up to a blocked entrance.

Trin

27-Oct-2015, 06:52 PM

I liked the 3-episode arc overall. It was gripping and intense. I hated seeing Glenn get taken out (assumedly) but it's good to see that the series holds nothing back.

The good...
- The overall atmosphere. Large numbers of walkers. Good desolation scenes outside Alexandria.
- The main characters are working together well (both Team Rick and Alexandria). The conflict that exists is believable and interesting.
- Morgan's development. I don't like Morgan right now for obvious reasons, but it's great watching his struggle.
- The Wolves attack was pretty cool, and wonderfully jarring in how it was filmed. Real edge-of-the-seat stuff.
- Carol's response/actions during the Wolves attack was inventive, badassed, good for her character and contributed to plot and character development across the board. I've been pretty burned out on Carol (a little too one-dimensional deceitful/cutthroat for me), so this was refreshing.
- I liked how Glenn's ongoing redemption of Nicholas turned into his own demise.
- Rick... in pretty much every sense. We finally have a good mix of badass Rick and protector Rick.
- Zombies... yeah, the series has finally made the zombies a believable threat.

The bad...

- The "zombie parade" plan is a fail from the start in my mind. That just seemed colosally stupid to me.
- The Wolves were/are stupid. The idea of that group surviving without guns, given their basic MO, is hard to swallow.
- The group running to Alexandria getting flanked, outrun, overrun, pinned down, ninja-bit and finally... trapped in an alley? By the splinter group of zombies they had a head-start over? It just doesn't make any logistical sense.
- Glenn looking down a wide-open street and going into a fenced in alley.
- Too much contrived discourse over who would or would not be left behind followed by people getting left behind.

And the Glenn demise...
- Hide in the goddam dumpster. Really, I'm the only one thinking that?
- Yes, my first thought was to climb up to the stairs.

Ultimately, I'm in the annoyed category. Just too many plot contrivances and wtf things going on. But... Daaaaaammmnnnn... it was a fun ride!

And Glenn better be dead! I'm already 8 of 12 steps through the grieving process!

DayoftheZ

27-Oct-2015, 07:00 PM

My gut feeling is that we all need to come to terms with that fact that Glenn will not only survive but will be unscathed. I don't see why they would leave it open to interpretation unless he survives.

I will be very disappointed because for me that was a Game of Thrones style shock and if he walks out they have bottled it in my opinion.

Buzzbomb

27-Oct-2015, 07:20 PM

And the Glenn demise...
- Hide in the goddam dumpster. Really, I'm the only one thinking that?

The dumpster was locked with a padlock & chain...

Personally I'm ambivalent about Glenn's fate - though it echoed his first encounter with Rick in the tank & I keep thinking about what he said to Rick about if he was ever that far up shit creek without a paddle, someone would do try to rescue him too.

I'm more concerned about what Rick will do in the RV... will he leg it or hide?

Moon Knight

27-Oct-2015, 07:37 PM

I don't see why they would leave it open to interpretation unless he survives.

To create buzz, controversy, and discussion. Also, I'm sure the group will need to actually "see" Glenn's fate; be it as a fresh Walker at Alexandria's gate. That's at least what I hope happens.

ProfessorChaos

27-Oct-2015, 08:05 PM

Lol the hate is real in this thread. I will never understand why people complain but still watch every week.

over the last couple of seasons, i have waited for there to either be a half-season or even the complete season accumulated on the dvr before i watch them; the show views better that way in my opinion. it feels to me that there isn't much of an overall arc going on these days, just recycling old plots. viewers were made to believe that carol and judith both died, and now they are pulling the same story with glenn. this time, though, they really had a lot of foreplay with the audience before the fucking commenced, with the watch, "dumbass" throwback, the repeated mentioning of the wife....the chance of someone living through that would be ZERO. his legs would be exposed, given the way nicolas's corpse collapsed on him. he's also screaming bloody murder. and there's no way any noise or sound would distract the dozen or so walkers dogpiled on him and nicolas. both would be nearly picked clean to the bone, as others have said. a few other websites i frequent have had commenters use the phrase "jump the zombie" when discussing the aspect of glenn suriving.

other little things about the show bother me too much to sit quietly about either: one of the redshirts falling down and trying to heroically pick off walkers rather than put a bullet in her brain and skip the agony of being devoured alive. the absolutely helplessness and complacency of the redshirts....six of you standing around as a walker comes up and ninja attacks one of you? not putting the guy out of his misery as the walkers pinned him against the fence and munched away on him ( and his death was almost a carbon-copy of noah's or whatever his name was from last season). rick's assailants being the same ones morgan let walk away seems horribly familiar too. the writers on this show really should try a bit harder if you ask me.

with the wolves and possibly negan looming on the horizon, this show was picking up steam and i'd taken up watching it weekly again....but i may have to just wait it out till the season is over, it's almost maddening to watch this show weekly. not trying to bash those who do enjoy it every week, just putting in my two cents.

kidgloves

27-Oct-2015, 08:38 PM

After a 2nd viewing I would be stunned if they engineer an escape for Glen. There were 100's of zombies coming down that alleyway and he was screaming while something was being torn apart so he either lost his mind or got eaten.

I'm absolutely LOVING Andrew Lincoln this season

Andy

27-Oct-2015, 10:27 PM

I'm actually really surprised by some of the posts in this thread, I could even go as far as saying some fanboy wishful thinking.. I've watched the episode twice now and Glenn is clearly dead, it doesn't even look like Nicholas fell on top of him if the second viewing but more to the side.

If he isn't dead, I will personally pay $100 to every member who called it. That's how sure I am.

Anyway, MZ's post reminded me of a conversation I had with some friends a couple of weeks ago, does anyone else think Rick has taken "the long way" to the place Shane was in season 2.. Mentally I mean.. Would season 2 Shane and season 5/6 Rick be on the same page? Pretty sure these days Rick would have killed Randal, just saying :)

More interesting conversation than wishful "Glenn isn't dead!" Posts..

Moon Knight

27-Oct-2015, 11:19 PM

Harleydude666

27-Oct-2015, 11:48 PM

If Glenn is alive I'm done with the show. It's that simple. Yes, it's a zombie show and you have to suspend your belief but this show has been playing it straight all along, why fuck it up now?. They sucked me in for five years and now they're jumping the shark?
If they punk this, it will suck so much to have to walk away from the show but I'll have to. I wouldn't be able to live in their world any longer.

ProfessorChaos

28-Oct-2015, 12:42 AM

If he isn't dead, I will personally pay $100 to every member who called it. That's how sure I am.

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view4/4289723/you-serious-clark-o-s.gif

i'm not betting 100 bucks on the fact that glenn will survive, but i damn sure wouldn't bet even 10 bucks that he is in fact dead. i will pm you my mailing address once we find out i'm right.

pretty much every major character has had a witness or group member when they died. i don't watch the talking dead because i can't stand the guy who hosts it, but apparently the actor wasn't on the show. and as i've said, they've pulled this crap before. i really hope i'm mistaken, i really want to be wrong, but i smell bullshit on this one.

facestabber

28-Oct-2015, 01:37 AM

Andy. Yes I think Rick and Shane would get along much better in the present. Ricks humanity has slowly slipped away. Shane just downright kicked humanity and feelings to the side.

Another thing that hasn't been discussed. Judith's baby food that the wolf had in his pocket. Rick found it and I think he is rightfully concerned. Carl left that kid unattended.

AcesandEights

28-Oct-2015, 01:46 AM

I've been extremely happy with the opening few episodes to this season. I love the tempo, even if it will have to slow down and reset somewhat at some point.

That said, I will also say it was pretty comedic how contrived the excess baggage cast members were killed off. I mean, Rick and Michonne
just got done with their little discussion about not everyone making it back and they come back to the group to find some Alexandrian has discovered a zombie with his neck in the middle of those sparse woods? :lol:

With regards to Glenn, yeah, he's a goner...unless they cheese out and have him survive, as some have suggested. Part of me wonders if Glenn is miraculously saved by writer's fiat in a flashback sequence, will he only survive long enough to ultimately buy the farm by the end of the next extra long episode? I mean, it's a 90 minute time slot, it's either to eulogize his character, or someone else of at least midl-evel importance is getting it in the neck.

The dumpster was locked with a padlock & chain...

Good catch! I didn't even notice that.

Hi everybody, long time no post :)

First apologies for my absence, lifes short and im very busy.. i do still check in when i can!

Hey, Andy! Good to see you posting, man.

Moon Knight

28-Oct-2015, 02:47 AM

I've been extremely happy with the opening few episodes to this season. I love the tempo, even if it will have to slow down and reset somewhat at some point.

That said, I will also say it was pretty comedic how contrived the excess baggage cast members were killed off. I mean, Rick and Michonne
just got done with their little discussion about not everyone making it back and they come back to the group to find some Alexandrian has discovered a zombie with his neck in the middle of those sparse woods? :lol:

With regards to Glenn, yeah, he's a goner...unless they cheese out and have him survive, as some have suggested. Part of me wonders if Glenn is miraculously saved by writer's fiat in a flashback sequence, will he only survive long enough to ultimately buy the farm by the end of the next extra long episode? I mean, it's a 90 minute time slot, it's either to eulogize his character, or someone else of at least midl-evel importance is getting it in the neck.

Good catch! I didn't even notice that.

Hey, Andy! Good to see you posting, man.

No chance it gets resolved next episode. It's centered on Morgan and his journey from "Clear" to present time. I guess we meet this so called "Cheese Maker" too.

slayerized

28-Oct-2015, 05:53 AM

Pretty sure these days Rick would have killed Randal, just saying :)

Shit...today's Rick wouldn't have bothered pulling his ass off the fence! :D

zomtom

28-Oct-2015, 06:00 AM

I understand where a number of you feel Glenn should be dead. Personally I hope he will survive for a bit longer. Many of us who are attracted to zombies and the apocalypse have a "dark side" to us. Many of the "unwashed masses" who make up the main viewership of TWD don't really fit into this picture. They're not really into zombies. They got caught up in the hype and now they're addicted. If you kill too many of they're favorite characters; they are going to leave in droves. If this were to happen it's only a matter of time before TWD is cancelled. I'm not ready for that. I hope and believe the producers and writers know this as well since it's their jobs on the line. If Glenn survives this mess; I for one will not complain. By the way; I think episode 4 is going to be VERY Morgancentric.

JDP

28-Oct-2015, 07:58 AM

Good points both ways regarding Glenn and Nicholas escape. Me personally I always think elevation when pondering the zombie apocalypse. I saw the stairs and would have found a way up them. It may not work but I would much rather have walkers funneled to me in a narrow corridor(think 300 Spartans) than from everywhere. Plus gravity would help fight off the far less coordinated walkers. But I can certainly acknowledge that had they taken that path and the door was locked/blockaded from the inside they are pretty much screwed. I would have to watch again to even see if it was possible to get to the roof from that upper landing. The roof would be survivable if patient.

I can certainly understand why they chose to stay on foot. And as alluded above they had a shot until they discovered the walkers on the other side of the fence. If I recall wasnt there concertina wire on top of the fence? If so that just adds to the difficulty of trying to climb and scale toward the building. The razors on that fence will shred you no doubt. Granted I would take my chances with the fence considering the alternative zombie buffet.

End of the day, they made a split second decision and it turned out to be wrong. Its just the bitch of the apocalypse.

Unfortunately, we don't see the actual roof of that building, so we don't know if you could somehow access it from the top of the stairwell. However, there is a door, which it is not clear whether it is blocked or not, and there are also two windows, which do not look blocked, one of them at a lower level than the stairs, which means you could attempt to crash through it from the stairs if push comes to shove. They certainly would have had more chances of surviving on those stairs than facing the horde full front like they did.

The fence at the back of the alley was tall and on top had barbed wire. Glenn and Nicholas must have known what they were heading to a long time before reaching the end of that alley, so it makes little sense that they would allow themselves to be trapped like that. Much better to take your chances with a not very well blocked stairway than up a tall fence with barbed wire on top. The barbed wire is what would have made trying to get to the roof of the blue building very difficult. That stuff is designed to make it difficult for intruders to jump over fences.

- - - Updated - - -

I've just watched the alleyway sequence again and there are a matter of a few seconds between the camera panning to show the blocked stairs and the guys finding out that there are more than two zombies on the other side of the fence. By the time they've seen that, the other zombie group are nearly upon them, so the stairs was kind of a no go anyway, because the zombies would have been on top of them before they moved the first palette. There's still the option to climb the fence and shimmy across onto the roof, but Nicky boy wasn't interested it seems.

Either way they're pretty screwed. They end up on the roof with a shedload of rotters down below. Unless Glenn can contact Rick and form some plan.

BTW, those stairs lead up to a blocked entrance.

The problem is that they should have realized this long before they were trapped. They were going down the alley looking for exits, they should have had plenty of time to realize the stairwell was their best choice even before arriving at the end of the alley. They could see the barbed wire fence waiting them at the end. But even after Glenn starts to look for other options after trying the door and the fence, they still would have had time to head for the stairs. Glenn pretty much realizes this is a dead end while Nicholas has not even arrived to the end of the alley, and the zombies are still fairly behind the stairwell. Right then he should have told Nicholas to head for the stairs and start moving the mattress aside. They would not even have to bother moving anything else, behind the mattress there appears to be enough room to squeeze through to the stairs.

It is not clear if the entrance to the building is blocked or not (there seems to be a wooden panel on the top of the stairs, but it is not clear if it is really blocking the entrance.) We also see two windows on the building, one of them at a level below the stairs, which do not seem to be blocked. Plus we also don't know if the roof of that building is reachable from the top of the stairs. So there might be 3 possible escape routes from those stairs: door, roof, window. Call me crazy but I would take those 3 chances any day of the week before having to face a zombie horde head-on.

- - - Updated - - -

The dumpster was locked with a padlock & chain...

And it was also full of stuff. Too much to get it out and make room to fit inside before the zombies reached you.

MinionZombie

28-Oct-2015, 11:17 AM

Anyway, MZ's post reminded me of a conversation I had with some friends a couple of weeks ago, does anyone else think Rick has taken "the long way" to the place Shane was in season 2.. Mentally I mean.. Would season 2 Shane and season 5/6 Rick be on the same page? Pretty sure these days Rick would have killed Randal, just saying :)

Shit...today's Rick wouldn't have bothered pulling his ass off the fence! :D

Yeah, at best today's Rick would have shot Randall to put him out of his misery ... but could also just as easily leave him to scream and draw the walkers away - use him as a distraction, like an object almost. However, if Rick had been like this in Season 2 - what would he then be like now in Season 6? Rick's right on the edge at the moment ... had Rick been like this in Season 2, then 1) it would have been a boring arc with not much range or change to it, and 2) he'd probably be an absolute beast of what used to be a man. He'd practically be a monster, quite possibly. I think chunks of the group would have deserted him (some almost did just that for good after the church massacre of 5x03).

Some people might have survived that otherwise died ... but the group would have likely fractured, too. Daryl might have left for good with Merle, Glenn and Maggie wouldn't have hung around (and Hershel and Beth would have gone with them), Dale might have been alive but would have certainly left Rick's side forever if he'd taken out Randall (or, if he'd left Randall where he was, Dale would have still left Rick's side - just look at how much he detested Shane in the end).

Rick is on the edge, but his journey over the last few seasons - his resistance to just opting for out-and-out brutality - has kept him largely right up to this point, and is his most powerful tool to keep him on the right side of the line (albeit a blurry one that's shifted considerably in this ZA world).

Judith's baby food that the wolf had in his pocket. Rick found it and I think he is rightfully concerned. Carl left that kid unattended.

An interesting reminder on Talking Dead regarding Aaron and Rick in Season 5 - one of the things Aaron gave Rick was baby food from Alexandria, as a sign that it was a safe place. So that's now totally flipped in his mind - he's thinking his entire family might be dead and that there's nothing left. His plan has failed, he's now doubting every shred of confidence he's had up to this point ... he's in bad shape.

As for what he'll do - hide or run - he'll leg it out of the RV and head for Alexandria.

I understand where a number of you feel Glenn should be dead. Personally I hope he will survive for a bit longer. Many of us who are attracted to zombies and the apocalypse have a "dark side" to us. Many of the "unwashed masses" who make up the main viewership of TWD don't really fit into this picture. They're not really into zombies. They got caught up in the hype and now they're addicted. If you kill too many of they're favorite characters; they are going to leave in droves. If this were to happen it's only a matter of time before TWD is cancelled. I'm not ready for that. I hope and believe the producers and writers know this as well since it's their jobs on the line. If Glenn survives this mess; I for one will not complain. By the way; I think episode 4 is going to be VERY Morgancentric.

Good points. If Glenn does survive - and I've become more convinced of that in the last couple of days - then they're absolutely going to have to show us how it happens in a way that makes sense. It'll be very important. It's certainly not a deal breaker for me - I wouldn't stop watching the show (hey, I'm TWD obsessed!), but unless they really lay out an understandable way for Glenn to survive then it'll be a bit of a bloody cheek.

I still maintain though, as I've always done, that TWD gets the vast majority of things right on the show with only a few stumbling moments - the fence climbers in Season 1, the eventual bugger up that was Andrea's arc, the incredibly mixed bag back-half of Season 3 (3x12 and 3x15 were both highlights of the entire series, while 3x14 - the one where Andrea and The Governor play hide and seek in that old factory - was quite possibly the worst episode of TWD and a decided, incongruous, low point).

Yeah - we'll be seeing some Morgan flashbacks next week - but the entire episode about Morgan? It's possible, I suppose, but I kind of hope it isn't all Morgan ... if we don't find out what happens to Glenn until 6x05 then it's going to be a right old todger tease! :lol: It makes sense to have some of Morgan's past journey at this point though, because we need to see how he got from "Clear" to here. He's had a considerable shift in his outlook on life, and we need to understand it from his perspective. I do hope that - soon - he wises up and realises that evil men can't be trusted and left to their own devices. They will come back to haunt you in this ZA world ... I think it'll be part of his character's journey. It's a key part of writing - for characters to change over the course of the story - and to have opposing points of view and ways of doing things.

Rick's almost gone too far, while Morgan hasn't gone far enough. We need a happy middle ground ... "Rorgan" ... "Mork" ... "Ricgan". :p

shootemindehead

28-Oct-2015, 11:45 AM

Andy. Yes I think Rick and Shane would get along much better in the present. Ricks humanity has slowly slipped away. Shane just downright kicked humanity and feelings to the side.

Shane was batshit insane.

Rick has reached a point where he's unwilling to take chances that will endanger the group as a whole generally and has come close to the edge, but he still hasn't lost the plot like Shane did.

MinionZombie

28-Oct-2015, 11:53 AM

Shane was batshit insane.

Rick has reached a point where he's unwilling to take chances that will endanger the group as a whole generally and has come close to the edge, but he still hasn't lost the plot like Shane did.

A big old yupperooni on this one ... ... in other words I agree. :D

...

Someone did a really cool Glenn Rhee tribute video. Thoroughly good. :)

FoBEef8LiXE

shootemindehead

28-Oct-2015, 12:18 PM

Unfortunately, we don't see the actual roof of that building, so we don't know if you could somehow access it from the top of the stairwell. However, there is a door, which it is not clear whether it is blocked or not, and there are also two windows, which do not look blocked, one of them at a lower level than the stairs, which means you could attempt to crash through it from the stairs if push comes to shove. They certainly would have had more chances of surviving on those stairs than facing the horde full front like they did.

I'm not so sure. To me the door at the top of those stairs looks fairly well blocked and more than likely locked too, meaning that the two lads were stuck on the stairs with all the zebadees coming up towards them. It would only be a matter of time before they succumbed to the sheer mass.

I think people are looking at the stairs as some sort of salvation option because the dumpster/fence option ended in disaster, largely because Nicky boy decided to blow his head off. They were stuck, but they could have have shimmied across to the roof from there.

The fence at the back of the alley was tall and on top had barbed wire. Glenn and Nicholas must have known what they were heading to a long time before reaching the end of that alley, so it makes little sense that they would allow themselves to be trapped like that. Much better to take your chances with a not very well blocked stairway than up a tall fence with barbed wire on top. The barbed wire is what would have made trying to get to the roof of the blue building very difficult. That stuff is designed to make it difficult for intruders to jump over fences.

That barbed/razor wire can be negotiated easily if you're careful. I've done it myself :shifty: . Plus, with a couple of hundred zombies trundling after you, you'll do it. You bet your life you'd do it.

Given the time to decision ratio, Glenn and Nicholas probably made the right decision, or as right as the circumstances allowed. Hopping onto the bin and over the fence made sense, right up until they found out that there were a large number of zombies on the other side of the fence too.

By that time, option B (the blocked stairs up to the potentially blocked/locked door) was gone.

The problem is that they should have realized this long before they were trapped. They were going down the alley looking for exits, they should have had plenty of time to realize the stairwell was their best choice even before arriving at the end of the alley. They could see the barbed wire fence waiting them at the end. But even after Glenn starts to look for other options after trying the door and the fence, they still would have had time to head for the stairs. Glenn pretty much realizes this is a dead end while Nicholas has not even arrived to the end of the alley, and the zombies are still fairly behind the stairwell. Right then he should have told Nicholas to head for the stairs and start moving the mattress aside. They would not even have to bother moving anything else, behind the mattress there appears to be enough room to squeeze through to the stairs.

Ah well, ya know shoulda/woulda/coulda...

I still maintain that in stressful situations, people don't have the luxury of making considered choices. Plus, the guys are looking to put as much distance between themselves and the gang'o'ghouls behind them. So jumping the fence looks like the better option than trapping yourself on a small flight of stairs that leads to a (more than likely) locked door.

If the scene had ended with Nicholas and Glenn scaling the fence and running off into the sunset, nobody would be mentioning the blocked stairs leading up to the blocked door as an "option" at all.

If I was in that situation, I probably would have tried the fence myself, because (frankly) that flight of stairs is a death trap, even if Nicky doesn't whack himself.

It is not clear if the entrance to the building is blocked or not (there seems to be a wooden panel on the top of the stairs, but it is not clear if it is really blocking the entrance.) We also see two windows on the building, one of them at a level below the stairs, which do not seem to be blocked. Plus we also don't know if the roof of that building is reachable from the top of the stairs. So there might be 3 possible escape routes from those stairs: door, roof, window. Call me crazy but I would take those 3 chances any day of the week before having to face a zombie horde head-on.

It's pretty clear to me that there's a large piece of chipboard covering the door and in that situation, I'd wager that the door behind was locked too. Probably the owner of the building had it locked down when the proverbial hit the fan. The ground door that Glenn tried is locked too.

Again, people are only looking at that door, because the choice the lads made ended in disaster. A disaster made by Nicholas, it has to be said. They were trapped, but it wasn't the end.

JDP

28-Oct-2015, 02:06 PM

I'm not so sure. To me the door at the top of those stairs looks fairly well blocked and more than likely locked too, meaning that the two lads were stuck on the stairs with all the zebadees coming up towards them. It would only be a matter of time before they succumbed to the sheer mass.

The stairs were not wide enough to allow a large number of zombies coming up at them all at once. So even if some zombies eventually managed to find their way to the stairs (first they need to find a way through the obstacles, and since they have a very low IQ that obviously is going to take them a while to figure out), you could deal with them much safer. Shoot or stab in the head some of them on the stairs and their piling corpses will also make more obstacles for any others finding their way up. They would have had a much better control of the situation on those stairs, even if they could not have found a way out.

I think people are looking at the stairs as some sort of salvation option because the dumpster/fence option ended in disaster, largely because Nicky boy decided to blow his head off. They were stuck, but they could have have shimmied across to the roof from there.

Nicholas blew his head off because they were screwed. They put themselves in a situation from which there hardly was any way out. On top of a dumpster surrounded by zombies and not near to anything other than a barbed wire fence does not look very hopeful.

That barbed/razor wire can be negotiated easily if you're careful. I've done it myself :shifty: . Plus, with a couple of hundred zombies trundling after you, you'll do it. You bet your life you'd do it.

You might also fall down to your death while trying to "negotiate it", specially with hundreds of zombies shaking the fence trying to claw their way up to get you. Also, you would have to jump onto the fence, since the dumpster is not right next to it but nearby. You miscalculate or do not get a firm grip and down you go. And there are no second chances with that zombie mob waiting for you down there.

Given the time to decision ratio, Glenn and Nicholas probably made the right decision, or as right as the circumstances allowed. Hopping onto the bin and over the fence made sense, right up until they found out that there were a large number of zombies on the other side of the fence too.

By that time, option B (the blocked stairs up to the potentially blocked/locked door) was gone.

Climbing on the dumpster was not their original plan but a last resource action. They had no other choice at that point.

Ah well, ya know shoulda/woulda/coulda...

I still maintain that in stressful situations, people don't have the luxury of making considered choices. Plus, the guys are looking to put as much distance between themselves and the gang'o'ghouls behind them. So jumping the fence looks like the better option than trapping yourself on a small flight of stairs that leads to a (more than likely) locked door.

If you have climbed up a fence you already know that it is more difficult than simply climbing up a flight of stairs. Seek the path of least resistance, specially when a mob of zombies is approaching. Plus there's more possibilities to find an escape on those stairs than the door, supposing that it was blocked and locked.

If the scene had ended with Nicholas and Glenn scaling the fence and running off into the sunset, nobody would be mentioning the blocked stairs leading up to the blocked door as an "option" at all.

If I was in that situation, I probably would have tried the fence myself, because (frankly) that flight of stairs is a death trap, even if Nicky doesn't whack himself.

It's pretty clear to me that there's a large piece of chipboard covering the door and in that situation, I'd wager that the door behind was locked too. Probably the owner of the building had it locked down when the proverbial hit the fan. The ground door that Glenn tried is locked too.

The ground door is from the next building, not the one with the staircase. Plus it is not clear if the chipboard is really nailed shut or is just covering the entrance. Whoever tried to block that place doesn't look like he invested a lot of time doing it. He just threw a mattress and wooden pallets at the bottom of the stairs. There is no telling what he did upstairs. And the windows don't look covered by anything. You could try to break through the window that is beside and somewhat lower than the stairs. Just pick one of the wooden pallets and start smashing the window, then jump in.

Again, people are only looking at that door, because the choice the lads made ended in disaster. A disaster made by Nicholas, it has to be said. They were trapped, but it wasn't the end.

Both Nicholas and Glenn are to blame. They did not react in time. And they had plenty of it. Look at how long that alley is. They ran down all the way to the end and passed TWO stairways (yes, look carefully, there are actually two buildings with stairways in that alley) and they did not attempt to go up.

Trin

28-Oct-2015, 02:53 PM

JDP

28-Oct-2015, 03:29 PM

Glenn and Nicholas didn't have to get themselves out of the situation. They only needed to buy time ... maybe a few hours ... for the rest of the group to pull the situation together and realize they were missing. We all know that someone will come looking for them. So climb the stairs and block it, climb the fence and sit on top of it, or just stay standing on the dumpster. Fire the flare off after several hours if no one shows up.

Staying on the dumpster does not look safe at all, specially when you don't know how many hours or maybe even days you will have to hold that position. It's only a matter of time before some of the zombies find their way up or manage to pull you down.

And even if someone found you, I think there is very little they could try to do to get you out of that tight spot. That alley was full of zombies, literally. The thing looks like a river of zombies. Unless they have a tank or a bulldozer in Alexandria I don't see how can anyone go into that alley to try to rescue you.

So what if the dumpster was padlocked? This is Hollywood... shoot the padlock off and climb inside. ... :p ... Okay, okay, fine. I didn't notice the padlock and chains. It was obvious that the edges were partially opened and I figure you could make room easily enough, so why not just open one side and jump in? But if you can't get it fully opened it'd be pretty difficult. I concede the point!

The dumpster was brimming with trash. You would have had to empty some of it before trying to get in (and the point here is to actually be fully inside the dumpster, protected by its walls and cover, not just lay on top of the garbage with parts of your body sticking out of the dumpster for the zombies to grab and munch on.) Not enough time to make a nice hole to jump in before the zombies caught up. Also the same reason why the dumpster would have been too heavy to move in time next to the blue wall and attempt to climb up to the roof.

Trin

28-Oct-2015, 05:20 PM

Yes, I conceded that without being able to open one side of the dumpster lid you wouldn't be able to clean it out enough to make room for two people. I guarantee you, though, before I blow my head off and become zombie lunch I'm taking a shot at the padlock and trying to get that thing open. Once you could open it I think it is viable.

And I'd stand on that dumpster a long time waiting to see if the zombies could get up. It didn't look like they could, given the press of them. The key is not to kill the close ones so they don't become a ramp.

I have to believe that once the main group is aware of their dilemma it wouldn't take much to get them safe. They could clear out the side beyond the fence. Or enter the building from the opposite side and approach from the rooftop, dropping a rope to let them climb up. Or draw the group away in chunks. Or use the dozens of guns they have to just clear the group out. Or let Morgan loose on them for like... 5 minutes.

Or.... Nicholas and Glenn could just kill a few zombies and douse themselves with zombie guts and walk right out. Don't pretend that doesn't work because Glenn has done it before! :p :D

MinionZombie

28-Oct-2015, 05:21 PM

I'm not so sure. To me the door at the top of those stairs looks fairly well blocked and more than likely locked too, meaning that the two lads were stuck on the stairs with all the zebadees coming up towards them. It would only be a matter of time before they succumbed to the sheer mass.

I still maintain that in stressful situations, people don't have the luxury of making considered choices. Plus, the guys are looking to put as much distance between themselves and the gang'o'ghouls behind them. So jumping the fence looks like the better option than trapping yourself on a small flight of stairs that leads to a (more than likely) locked door.

If the scene had ended with Nicholas and Glenn scaling the fence and running off into the sunset, nobody would be mentioning the blocked stairs leading up to the blocked door as an "option" at all.

If I was in that situation, I probably would have tried the fence myself, because (frankly) that flight of stairs is a death trap, even if Nicky doesn't whack himself.

Aye. It is all very well and good for us sat comfortably in front of our forum, but in the heat of the moment any one of us could make a wrong choice - out of, quite frankly, a meagre amount of only shit choices. The bottom door of that building was locked, so the top door would likely be locked too.

If Nicholas had been as capable as Glenn they could have hugged close in the centre of that dumpster lid and avoid the clawing hands of the dead (they'd have to be careful as they could be tripped/pulled down if they weren't careful) ... but you could have both stood on there, as has been suggested, and waited to see what might happen. They do have a flare - now that it's been mentioned by others - so I'm now quite convinced Glenn will use it to distract the bulk of the other walkers in the herd (the ones who would never be able to join in on the buffet anyway), get himself some wiggle room, crawl under the dumpster and make a run for it when he can.

I do hope we get resolution next week rather than having to wait two weeks. Hardwick did announce there will be a "secret cast member" to appear on next week's Talking Dead - so I'd imagine that'll be Steven Yeun ... or it might be Lennie James (if it is indeed a Morgan heavy, Glenn lite/none episode). If it is Yeun then it's either two options - Glenn does die or Glenn just has an absolutely epic ride giving plenty of Yeun to talk about.

I do think, considering how few Season 1 cast members we've got, those 'original cast' deaths have to be used very sparingly - we've barely got anyone left from Season 1 as it stands! Sure, there was only six episodes, but still - we've lost so many, and if you've made it this far it's for a bloody good reason. You have capabilities beyond normal men - or those of us posting on forums. ;)

I was very convinced of my previous theory, but more and more I'm thinking Glenn survives - again, I come back to this: hopefully they have a very good way of showing exactly how that can work practically. All the little steps, all the extraordinarily close encounters etc ... and I would like to see some undead fingernails tear some flesh (but leave our folks alive) in future episodes. That'll add an even deeper 'skin of your teeth' vibe to escaping a walker attack.

We could also do with a subplot involving general infection of an otherwise survivable wound, something that isn't like Hershel surviving having his leg chopped off, but more like as I say - some sort of wound inflicted by the walkers (that isn't a bite) that gives someone a rough time which they have to fight through. Although, considering Season 4A's story about that virus we've kind of done that thing before ... but maybe just a little one, in the background of an episode or two? We've seen that walkers' bony fingertips (the nails and the bones - being that the flesh has been torn away) can really do some damage in the past, so I would like to see a bit of their 'dangerous touch' ... "Oh shit! I've been fingered by a walker! Nurse! Gimme stitches!" :lol:

Mr. Clean

28-Oct-2015, 10:37 PM

My thoughts on Glenn

I don't think Glenn is dead. Even though it's an extremely stupid idea, I think he will probably get extremely lucky. We probably won't see him for 2 or 3 episodes....maybe the finale. Michonne's line that went something like "until you've been covered in blood and wasn't sure if it was yours...someone else's....or walkers...then you don't know" was probably some type of foreshadowing for Glenn in the Alley.

Not the first time he has been covered in someone elses guts :D

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/60/7e/da/607edab01f3ce833d9c700fa4bca1d6c.jpg

MinionZombie

29-Oct-2015, 10:43 AM

Hmmm ... I think the 'covered in someone else's blood' is more related to Heath specifically, particularly as there was that moment where he sees his own blood-soaked face reflected back at him in that stream. It could be tangentially linked elsewhere, perhaps ... but hmmm...

DayoftheZ

29-Oct-2015, 12:32 PM

while 3x14 - the one where Andrea and The Governor play hide and seek in that old factory - was quite possibly the worst episode of TWD and a decided, incongruous, low point).

I really like that episode, I thought the whole part of the Governor tormenting Andrea as he followed her through that building was great fun.

Granted the chase across the field was a bit daft but the rest I really liked.

MinionZombie

29-Oct-2015, 12:51 PM

I really like that episode, I thought the whole part of the Governor tormenting Andrea as he followed her through that building was great fun.

Granted the chase across the field was a bit daft but the rest I really liked.

Yeah, there's bits of it I like to - and "worst" episode of TWD is a relative thing. I did enjoy the 'playing with sound' aspect in the factory chase, but at the same time it was an overlong sequence in a rather patchy episode. That back half of season 3 did suffer from some 'holding pattern' stuff as they attempted to fill in some time before the finale face off that they alluded to, but which didn't actually happen, which was a kind of silly thing to do. Fortunately they've not really done anything like that since. To be fair, season 3 was the first time doing two chunks of eight episodes, so there was additional content to come up with (similar to how going up to 13 episodes in season 2 ended up making the first seven shows a little bit dawdly at times) ... fortunately they've been on-point from season 4 onwards with their pacing. :)

shootemindehead

29-Oct-2015, 02:02 PM

The stairs were not wide enough to allow a large number of zombies coming up at them all at once. So even if some zombies eventually managed to find their way to the stairs (first they need to find a way through the obstacles, and since they have a very low IQ that obviously is going to take them a while to figure out), you could deal with them much safer. Shoot or stab in the head some of them on the stairs and their piling corpses will also make more obstacles for any others finding their way up. They would have had a much better control of the situation on those stairs, even if they could not have found a way out.

With the sheer weight of numbers coming up those stairs, it would only have been a matter of time before the boys were doomed. If there weren't so many zombies around, the stairs could be an option. But the volume means that even if you kill a huge number that come up, the ones behind will eventually push through or scramble over to get (exhausted and terrified) you. Maybe they could have survived on the stairs for a while, but the eventually of the horde getting to them seems obvious to me. Plus they've limited ammo and I think only Glenn has a knife as a melee weapon. That's not enough and far too much of a risk.

But, again, I have to point out that the luxury of mapping out all the possibilities is absent from the situation that Glenn and Nicholas find themselves in. The boys have a matter of seconds to choose where they are going to go and in that small amount of time, hopping over the fence and away certainly looks to be the better option.

In any case, the writing is set up to show the fence as the "way out" for Glenn and Nicholas. Michone's group pretty much scrambles over the same obstacle, so the viewer is led to believe that Glenn etc will do the same maneuver.

Either way, all the bets were only off when Nicholas shot himself. There are still options open to them up until then.

Nicholas blew his head off because they were screwed. They put themselves in a situation from which there hardly was any way out. On top of a dumpster surrounded by zombies and not near to anything other than a barbed wire fence does not look very hopeful.

Nicholas opted out because he lost it. I don't think they were necessarily "screwed". The situation was bad for sure, but it wasn't game over. I think he'd been getting closer and closer to the edge all the way through that episode anyway. He'd been wracked with guilt and "collapsing from stress". His suicide was the culmination of a number of factors...not to mention script. ;)

You might also fall down to your death while trying to "negotiate it", specially with hundreds of zombies shaking the fence trying to claw their way up to get you. Also, you would have to jump onto the fence, since the dumpster is not right next to it but nearby. You miscalculate or do not get a firm grip and down you go. And there are no second chances with that zombie mob waiting for you down there.

True, there's a whole load of "mights" involved.

Still, out of all of the "options" available at the time, hopping onto the bin and over the fence looked to be the best one.

Climbing on the dumpster was not their original plan but a last resource action. They had no other choice at that point.

The only "plan" way getting away from the zombie horde and scaling the fence looked to be the best option to put distance between them and said horde. Only when we see that there are zombies on the other side of the fence, does that option look bad. By that time, the opportunity to clear the palettes and other crap, try the stairs and hope the door at the top isn't looked, is gone.

But, as I said, if Glenn and Nicholas had actually climbed onto the bin and over the fence, in much the same way as Michone's group climbed over the fence, and got away, nobody would even be talking about the stairs.

If you have climbed up a fence you already know that it is more difficult than simply climbing up a flight of stairs. Seek the path of least resistance, specially when a mob of zombies is approaching. Plus there's more possibilities to find an escape on those stairs than the door, supposing that it was blocked and locked.

They have to clear the stairs first and that'll take time, which they don't have, plus it's leading up to a blocked door (which more than likely is locked). The camera shoots to the stairs specifically to show that it's blocked. That was done for a reason. That path is full of resistance.

The ground door is from the next building, not the one with the staircase. Plus it is not clear if the chipboard is really nailed shut or is just covering the entrance. Whoever tried to block that place doesn't look like he invested a lot of time doing it. He just threw a mattress and wooden pallets at the bottom of the stairs. There is no telling what he did upstairs. And the windows don't look covered by anything. You could try to break through the window that is beside and somewhat lower than the stairs. Just pick one of the wooden pallets and start smashing the window, then jump in.

Usually, when chipboard is put over an entrance like that, it means the building has been locked up and not in use. I think it's safe to assume that the owner probably locked up his place to keep people out while he rode out the situation somewhere else. To me, with a few seconds to spare to make a life and death decision, running up a flight of stairs to hope that the door behind the chipboard isn't locked simply wouldn't be on the cards. There's far too many what ifs going on there, for that to be a logical "escape".

Sure, the window could be smashed, but nobody knows where that leads to or what's behind it either. Plus that takes time, there's the danger of glass, and possibly a drop to god knows what. Not to mention that the zombies following could climb through the same window.

Again, we've had the luxury of seeing and debating all of the options at our leisure. Glenn and Nicholas didn't. They had to decide very quickly and their primary goal was getting away from the horde following them. Hopping over the fence instead of trapping yourself on the stairs looks to be the better way to escape. It's only when we see that there are zombies on the other side of the fence that the option of the stairs begins to look like an option at all. Hand on heart, if I was in the same situation, I'd have tried the fence too.

Both Nicholas and Glenn are to blame. They did not react in time. And they had plenty of it. Look at how long that alley is. They ran down all the way to the end and passed TWO stairways (yes, look carefully, there are actually two buildings with stairways in that alley) and they did not attempt to go up.

They had no time. That's the problem and their decisions are formed by the lack of that, fear, exhaustion and the want to put as much distance between themselves and the flesh eating horde that's after them. But Nicholas led Glenn down the wrong path, after saying he knew where to go and then compounded things by deciding to kill himself.

They were far from done on top of the dumpster. They had as much chance of riding out the situation on top of the dumpster as they did at the top of the stairs.

- - - Updated - - -

Aye. It is all very well and good for us sat comfortably in front of our forum, but in the heat of the moment any one of us could make a wrong choice - out of, quite frankly, a meagre amount of only shit choices. The bottom door of that building was locked, so the top door would likely be locked too.

If Nicholas had been as capable as Glenn they could have hugged close in the centre of that dumpster lid and avoid the clawing hands of the dead (they'd have to be careful as they could be tripped/pulled down if they weren't careful) ... but you could have both stood on there, as has been suggested, and waited to see what might happen. They do have a flare - now that it's been mentioned by others - so I'm now quite convinced Glenn will use it to distract the bulk of the other walkers in the herd (the ones who would never be able to join in on the buffet anyway), get himself some wiggle room, crawl under the dumpster and make a run for it when he can.

Of course. Glenn and Redser have to make a very quick decision. The horde is gaining on them and they want to get away. The best "get away" looks like the fence. The stairs looks like it'll take a bit of time to clear, plus, there's no guarantee that the door at the top is anything but another obstacle, leaving them trapped and having to fight off an inevitable onslaught, that will, more than likely, overwhelm them. Given that probability, standing on the dumpster looks ok. :lol: There's the window as JDP has pointed out, but that holds its own problems.

Also, do we know for sure how many zombies are on the other side of the fence? Perhaps there's the option to thin them out, then hop over?

Of course, Nick excludes any other possibilities after thinking of bullets.

Buzzbomb

29-Oct-2015, 04:37 PM

Kudos to DayOfTheZ for pointing out the blue Dawn walker! Nice one...

The change in the amount of blood on Heath's face is interesting - after shooting the walkers at the fence his face is clean, but shortly after there's some blood... and by the time they reach the river there's a whole lot more. Of course they could have run into more walkers on their way - though Michonne doesn't have any blood. I know it's kind of allegorical, given the speech Michonne gave, but still kind of funny...

Mr. Clean

29-Oct-2015, 05:04 PM

If he isn't dead, I will personally pay $100 to every member who called it. That's how sure I am.

Have your checkbook ready is all I can say. Might i suggest HPOTD themed Amazon gift cards? :D

- - - Updated - - -

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view4/4289723/you-serious-clark-o-s.gif

HAHAHAHAHAH!!!!

Moon Knight

29-Oct-2015, 05:27 PM

The classic "Blue Dawn Walker" has got to be my favorite homage. Clever!

MinionZombie

29-Oct-2015, 06:49 PM

Okay, so the Glenn event aside - what were some of folks' favourite bits of the episode?

facestabber

29-Oct-2015, 06:53 PM

Okay, so the Glenn event aside - what were some of folks' favourite bits of the episode?

Hahaha. I love the amount of discussion on this forum. TWD world fascinates me and to see so many like minded people is great. Even the disagreements here are cordial.

But to answer your question. My favorite part as a collective of season 6 are that Walkers are a serious threat again.

slayerized

29-Oct-2015, 07:12 PM

Okay, so the Glenn event aside - what were some of folks' favourite bits of the episode?

I couldn't get the site of caged "terrier puppies" out of my head for a bit...I was thinking "Why did they have to pick a pet shop??" I can watch humans get torn apart all day long but leave the animals out of it :)

Moon Knight

29-Oct-2015, 07:13 PM

Okay, so the Glenn event aside - what were some of folks' favourite bits of the episode?

Anything involving Rick. From the way he handled those three walkers that caused the cut on his hand, to his badass dismissal of The Wolves, ending in the way he portrayed fear and urgency as the Walkers surround the damaged RV. Brilliant.

facestabber

29-Oct-2015, 07:21 PM

I couldn't get the site of caged "terrier puppies" out of my head for a bit...I was thinking "Why did they have to pick a pet shop??" I can watch humans get torn apart all day long but leave the animals out of it :)

I was discussing this with my girlfriend earlier as her family owns a petshop. So we agreed when the dead rise we will free all the animals. Give them a fighting chance. I hear ya regarding the skeletons in their cages. What a horrible death.

slayerized

29-Oct-2015, 07:29 PM

The classic "Blue Dawn Walker" has got to be my favorite homage. Clever!

I wonder if he was somebody (connected to Dawn in some way)...You don't just make up a random walker like that...In the scene he is right behind Nicotero

facestabber

29-Oct-2015, 07:33 PM

I wonder if he was somebody (connected to Dawn in some way)...You don't just make up a random walker like that...In the scene he is right behind Nicotero

Nicotero has done several homage walkers throughout the series. I don't think he's used specific people for the roles. I think he is pretty limited to overly thin people. But I could be wrong. Though I would love to see a gutted Rhodes lunging from the ground as our cast walks by. I'm sure Pilato would do it.

slayerized

29-Oct-2015, 07:37 PM

Nicotero has done several homage walkers throughout the series. I don't think he's used specific people for the roles. I think he is pretty limited to overly thin people. But I could be wrong. Though I would love to see a gutted Rhodes lunging from the ground as our cast walks by. I'm sure Pilato would do it.

That would be awesome! Or even a Steel and Rickles pair of walkers!

DayoftheZ

29-Oct-2015, 08:05 PM

The classic "Blue Dawn Walker" has got to be my favorite homage. Clever!

I came to Dawn of the Dead quite late in my life (about six years or so ago) and grew up on Night (90) and Day of the Dead (hence my name which should really be DayofthZed but never mind!!). With that in mind I lost my shit when Bub turned up in that tunnel it was such a great thing to see and in my simple mind it tied Romeros Trilogy to TWD!!

It was great to see a blue walker in there but it did stick out like a sore thumb, which it fine as a one off. I dread the day they put a Big Daddy walker in howling like a banshee!!

Okay, so the Glenn event aside - what were some of folks' favourite bits of the episode?

Simply put RICK. He has had a couple of so so episodes playing the Governor Lite and it was nice to see a little more of the human come to the surface again. Michonne and Heath were also great in this episode and in truth I loved all the red-shirts biting the dust, it was overkill but you expect in a herd that size with such inept survivors that there would be lots of deaths.

Buzzbomb

29-Oct-2015, 11:23 PM

Okay, so ... what were some of folks' favourite bits of the episode?

The walkers!

Moon Knight

29-Oct-2015, 11:50 PM

Nicotero has done several homage walkers throughout the series. I don't think he's used specific people for the roles. I think he is pretty limited to overly thin people. But I could be wrong. Though I would love to see a gutted Rhodes lunging from the ground as our cast walks by. I'm sure Pilato would do it.

Dude, that would be great!

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The walkers!

Most definitely. That one Walker chopping down in slow motion as you just hear his teeth snapping was astonishing.

JDP

30-Oct-2015, 04:18 AM

With the sheer weight of numbers coming up those stairs, it would only have been a matter of time before the boys were doomed. If there weren't so many zombies around, the stairs could be an option. But the volume means that even if you kill a huge number that come up, the ones behind will eventually push through or scramble over to get (exhausted and terrified) you. Maybe they could have survived on the stairs for a while, but the eventually of the horde getting to them seems obvious to me. Plus they've limited ammo and I think only Glenn has a knife as a melee weapon. That's not enough and far too much of a risk.

Would you prefer to have to deal with the entire full front of the zombie horde coming at you all at once, as it happened to Nicholas and Glenn by staying on ground level, or would you prefer to deal with a few of them at a time, as it would happen on the stairs? I think the choice is obvious. Also keep in mind the zombie low IQ. People could rather easily squeeze through a blockade made out of a mattress, some barrels and pallets. Just moving the mattress a bit to the side they could have squeezed their way to the stairs. Zombies would basically be stumped here for a while. We have seen even more clumsy barriers stump them. The person who blocked the bottom of the stairs was trying to prevent zombies from making their way up, not people. His barrier is therefore hardly people-proof, but it would stump the zombies, who are not intelligent enough for planning strategy and use of their hands for anything other than grabbing and clawing at their prey. Zombies do not have the necessary level of intelligence to seek the easiest way through a barrier. Unlike people, they will not try to think first: "What can we remove to make it easier to pass through?". They will just try to push their way through, purely brute force, they understand nothing else. So that barrier would in fact be a benefit for Nicholas and Glenn. It would slow down the zombie flow into the stairs, which is not even wide enough to let many zombies through all at once. They could easily afford the luxury of catching their breath and start to look for ways into the building or to its roof, even if the upstairs door was blocked and locked. And any zombies that managed to make it through the barrier and to the stairs meanwhile can be dealt with. Both of them have guns and knives.

But, again, I have to point out that the luxury of mapping out all the possibilities is absent from the situation that Glenn and Nicholas find themselves in. The boys have a matter of seconds to choose where they are going to go and in that small amount of time, hopping over the fence and away certainly looks to be the better option.

In any case, the writing is set up to show the fence as the "way out" for Glenn and Nicholas. Michone's group pretty much scrambles over the same obstacle, so the viewer is led to believe that Glenn etc will do the same maneuver.

Either way, all the bets were only off when Nicholas shot himself. There are still options open to them up until then.

Michonne's group did not have the stairs option, they had to go over the fence, there was no other choice. Also, their fence was smaller, had bigger gaps and thus easier to climb, and also had no barbed wire. Glenn and Nicholas had another choice. And look at the length of that alley they were going through looking for exits. They had plenty of time to get a good idea of where they were going to end up at: a fence with barbed wire.

Nicholas opted out because he lost it. I don't think they were necessarily "screwed". The situation was bad for sure, but it wasn't game over. I think he'd been getting closer and closer to the edge all the way through that episode anyway. He'd been wracked with guilt and "collapsing from stress". His suicide was the culmination of a number of factors...not to mention script. ;)

By the time Nicholas kills himself the only option left is to try to jump to the barbed wire fence behind them, climb up and somehow make it to the roof of the nearby building from there. Their chances of making it were quite bleak.

True, there's a whole load of "mights" involved.

Still, out of all of the "options" available at the time, hopping onto the bin and over the fence looked to be the best one.

The only "plan" way getting away from the zombie horde and scaling the fence looked to be the best option to put distance between them and said horde. Only when we see that there are zombies on the other side of the fence, does that option look bad. By that time, the opportunity to clear the palettes and other crap, try the stairs and hope the door at the top isn't looked, is gone.

But, as I said, if Glenn and Nicholas had actually climbed onto the bin and over the fence, in much the same way as Michone's group climbed over the fence, and got away, nobody would even be talking about the stairs.

That jumping on the dumpster was not their original idea can be plainly seen by the fact that Glenn and Nicholas go straight for the fence first and totally ignore the dumpster. Getting on the dumpster was just their last desperate resource to try to avoid the zombie mob. And since it is not a very tall object the zombies can actually reach their feet/ankles, so it was hardly an ideal place to be. It's only a matter of time before either some zombies somehow manage to climb up (we have seen them climb up before, even though heights usually stump them) or, more probable, some of them manage to get a firm grasp of your clothes and start pulling you down by sheer force. Also, unlike the zombies, you are subject to exhaustion. They can be there standing up for hours, days and even weeks waiting for you. You can't. Sooner or later you are going to be very tired and finally collapse.

They have to clear the stairs first and that'll take time, which they don't have, plus it's leading up to a blocked door (which ore than likely is locked). The camera shoots to the stairs specifically to show that it's blocked. That was done for a reason. That path is full of resistance.

If you have moved a mattress similar to the one that was blocking the stairs you know that pushing it to the side would not take that long. The way that staircase was blocked even one person alone could have managed to make it through in time by simply moving the mattress a bit to the right. Behind the mattress you can see enough room to squeeze through and make it to the stairs. And if you have enough time before the zombies arrive, move the mattress back in place from the other side. That will make it even more difficult for the dumb zombies to figure out how to get through. That barrier would in fact be an advantage for the two escaping humans: easy enough for people to get through, but difficult enough to stump the zombies.

Usually, when chipboard is put over an entrance like that, it means the building has been locked up and not in use. I think it's safe to assume that the owner probably locked up his place to keep people out while he rode out the situation somewhere else. To me, with a few seconds to spare to make a life and death decision, running up a flight of stairs to hope that the door behind the chipboard isn't locked simply wouldn't be on the cards. There's far too many what ifs going on there, for that to be a logical "escape".

Sure, the window could be smashed, but nobody knows where that leads to or what's behind it either. Plus that takes time, there's the danger of glass, and possibly a drop to god knows what. Not to mention that the zombies following could climb through the same window.

In order to minimize the danger of the glass, first try to smash it real good. They had pallets available. Bang the glass panels very well and clear any dangerous shards.

The zombies could not have made it through the window. Why? Because it is above floor level and even if they manage to make it up the stairs, zombies in this series do not seem to be able to jump. Even though the window is close to the stairs, it is not right next to it. There is a gap between the stairs and the window. Hardly an obstacle for a human, who can simply jump or reach across, but certainly a barrier for a dumb zombie (remember how the zombies were stumped by the gap between the smashed window and the roofed walkway at the vet school?)

Again, we've had the luxury of seeing and debating all of the options at our leisure. Glenn and Nicholas didn't. They had to decide very quickly and their primary goal was getting away from the horde following them. Hopping over the fence instead of trapping yourself on the stairs looks to be the better way to escape. It's only when we see that there are zombies on the other side of the fence that the option of the stairs begins to look like an option at all. Hand on heart, if I was in the same situation, I'd have tried the fence too.

They had no time. That's the problem and their decisions are formed by the lack of that, fear, exhaustion and the want to put as much distance between themselves and the flesh eating horde that's after them. But Nicholas led Glenn down the wrong path, after saying he knew where to go and then compounded things by deciding to kill himself.

They were far from done on top of the dumpster. They had as much chance of riding out the situation on top of the dumpster as they did at the top of the stairs.

Look at how long that alley they went through is. They had plenty of time to see what waits ahead. They had two buildings with stairs leading up. It should have crossed their minds that they could be a possible escape route quite before they had reached the end of the alley. Even after Glenn fully realizes what a dead-end the end of the alley was, they still had time to head for the stairs and push the mattress to the side and attempt to get to the stairs. The zombies were still behind that building.

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That would be awesome! Or even a Steel and Rickles pair of walkers!

Quite difficult, seeing as all of them were torn to shreds by the zombies. The most we could see would maybe be their zombified heads. But how could they find their way out of the bunker, though? :)

Bub is perfectly possible since he was a zombie, so no one tore him to pieces. Also, since he seems smarter than the average zombie it is also possible that he somehow found a way out of the bunker.

MinionZombie

30-Oct-2015, 10:31 AM

That one Walker chopping down in slow motion as you just hear his teeth snapping was astonishing.

Ooh! That made my skin crawl - that clicking/clacking noise of teeth hitting teeth ... *shudders* ... a really nice touch they added in to that scene. Zoning in on the little details that would help drive someone to suicide.

Agreed - the walkers have hit back as a decided threat in a big, bad way - and I'm loving it. It's good to swing back and forth between what's the biggest threat at any one time, but it is nicest of all when they swing back to dangerous-as-all-get-out walkers. :elol: There's just something about how they can't be reasoned with and they'll just keep on coming at you no matter what that really creeps me out ... The Wolves are extremely dangerous, but you can actually talk to them (like Morgan did 5x16), and you could even manage to trick them or confuse them etc. With walkers there's none of that - if they're on to you they'll just keep on coming! :eek:

slayerized

30-Oct-2015, 06:37 PM

Quite difficult, seeing as all of them were torn to shreds by the zombies. The most we could see would maybe be their zombified heads. But how could they find their way out of the bunker, though? :)

Bub is perfectly possible since he was a zombie, so no one tore him to pieces. Also, since he seems smarter than the average zombie it is also possible that he somehow found a way out of the bunker.

Well to be honest they had homages to Stephen (flyboy Zombie), Airport Zombie and Lennie Lies Machete Zombie who all died anyway in Dawn so you have to use some suspension of belief - after all it's a just a salute to something from the past not a character that is realistically inserted into the story line...In your line of thinking how would Bub find his way off Sanibel Island and make his way all the way to Georgia to begin with - just saying :)

Moon Knight

30-Oct-2015, 06:50 PM

JDP

31-Oct-2015, 10:40 AM

Well to be honest they had homages to Stephen (flyboy Zombie), Airport Zombie and Lennie Lies Machete Zombie who all died anyway in Dawn so you have to use some suspension of belief - after all it's a just a salute to something from the past not a character that is realistically inserted into the story line...In your line of thinking how would Bub find his way off Sanibel Island and make his way all the way to Georgia to begin with - just saying :)

None of those characters was torn to pieces, though, so it is more conceivable that they could be roaming around. But how are the zombified heads of Rickles and Steel going to be "roaming around"??? Unless they are being carried by another zombie.

Fisher says he saw a zombie trying to drive a car down a street. Since Bub is smarter than the average zombie, he might have driven all the way to Georgia :D

facestabber

31-Oct-2015, 11:51 AM

None of those characters was torn to pieces, though, so it is more conceivable that they could be roaming around. But how are the zombified heads of Rickles and Steel going to be "roaming around"??? Unless they are being carried by another zombie.

Fisher says he saw a zombie trying to drive a car down a street. Since Bub is smarter than the average zombie, he might have driven all the way to Georgia :D

I think you are missing the point. The throwback zombies are homages that Nicotero gives us fans that have been with him and Romero since the beginning. The casual TWD fan will never pick up on them but we do. That's why they are special. We're are not asking for realism here.

Fisher hadn't seen "one of these things" driving a car. He said "if" as in if Logan's plan to socialize eventually worked. Just having here. Many of us would love to see a walker in full OD fatigues will "Rickles" or "Rhodes". Not because the zombies walked from Florida. In fact Rickles would be preferred for me since the actor died. A nice way to pay respect.

JDP

31-Oct-2015, 02:12 PM

I think you are missing the point. The throwback zombies are homages that Nicotero gives us fans that have been with him and Romero since the beginning. The casual TWD fan will never pick up on them but we do. That's why they are special. We're are not asking for realism here.

Fisher hadn't seen "one of these things" driving a car. He said "if" as in if Logan's plan to socialize eventually worked. Just having here. Many of us would love to see a walker in full OD fatigues will "Rickles" or "Rhodes". Not because the zombies walked from Florida. In fact Rickles would be preferred for me since the actor died. A nice way to pay respect.

I know what the point is, but so far all the tribute zombies have been more or less conceivable to be around. It is meant to be a "serious" show after all. But characters who have been torn apart do not lend themselves very well for these tributes. I can accept Bub or Flyboy walking around because they were not physically destroyed in the original movies they appeared in. But seeing Rickles or Steel as full-bodied zombies walking around would be too hard to digest (pun fully intended.) The casual viewer who is not into zombie movies won't notice and to him it will be just another zombie, but the zombie movie fan will know that it is not possible for them to be walking around as if nothing had happened to their corpses.

Fisher says this: "I once saw one of those things sitting behind the wheel of a car in D.C. trying to drive down Independence Avenue." So he did he see one of them trying to drive a car. He is not speaking hypothetically here. He is saying that zombies trying to carry out human activities does not make him want to be their friend, so in his opinion Logan is wasting his time trying to make Bub more human-like.

shootemindehead

31-Oct-2015, 03:33 PM

Would you prefer to have to deal with the entire full front of the zombie horde coming at you all at once, as it happened to Nicholas and Glenn by staying on ground level, or would you prefer to deal with a few of them at a time, as it would happen on the stairs?

I would prefer to get away and hopping on the bin and over the fence IS the better option for that. It's only when they get to the fence and see that that there are zombies on teh other side, that it's nature becomes obvious. By that time option b is also effectively gone.

The point, which you seem to be missing, is that over the fence is option A and moving the debris, going up the stairs and hoping that the door at the isn't locked is a poor option B. In the time there is to make a choice, option A looks to be the better one.

In the space of less than 20 seconds, Glenn and Nicholas run into the alleyway, run toward the fence, try the ground door, see the zombies behind the fence and turn to see the zombies have caught up and cornered them.

I think the choice is obvious.

Yes, over the fence is the obvious choice as a getaway. :D

Also keep in mind the zombie low IQ.

Nobody knows how they're going to react especially in a huge group like that. That's what makes zombies such a dangerous and great movie monster. One thing is for sure though. They are unrelenting and do not tire or stop and with that in mind I wouldn't be on for putting myself in the middle of them and hoping I could kill a couple of hundred with my limited ammo and knife.

People could rather easily squeeze through a blockade made out of a mattress, some barrels and pallets. Just moving the mattress a bit to the side they could have squeezed their way to the stairs.

But that HAS to be decided as option A and you'd want to be fucking mad to do that, when there's a scalable fence less than 50 metres away. Nobody would ignore that getaway and decide to place themselves in the of a hundred creatures that want to rip you to shreds.

The scenario you're trying to outline simply doesn't exist.

Michonne's group did not have the stairs option, they had to go over the fence, there was no other choice.

There was any other choice for Glenn and Nicholas either. By the time they see that there are zeds on the other side of the fence too, the zombies have passed the stairs.

That jumping on the dumpster was not their original idea can be plainly seen by the fact that Glenn and Nicholas go straight for the fence first and totally ignore the dumpster.

Their "plan" is getting away from the zombies. When they run into the ally, Nicholas tries the fence to his left. Glenn runs to the end of the alley and tires the blue door. It's locked. He then looks through the fence and sees the zeds and looks behind to see the blocked stairs. Meanwhile Nick has caught up and immediately tries to scale the fence and gets put off by the zombies on the other side.

In the couple of seconds that that happened in, the zombies have actually passed the stairs.

That whole scene from entering the alley to the zombies passing the staircase is 20 seconds.

Again, I'll say this (and it's last from me on it because our twain isn't going to meet on this)...Glenn and Nick are terrified, exhausted, and looking for a way to put distance between them and the things that want to rip them to pieces. They also don't have the time, or POV that the viewers have had to mull over and discuss every single possibility...and lastly, if they HAD simply scaled the fence and got away, not one single person would be even talking about the stairs and anything but a blocked passage.

facestabber

31-Oct-2015, 05:31 PM

I know what the point is, but so far all the tribute zombies have been more or less conceivable to be around. It is meant to be a "serious" show after all. But characters who have been torn apart do not lend themselves very well for these tributes. I can accept Bub or Flyboy walking around because they were not physically destroyed in the original movies they appeared in. But seeing Rickles or Steel as full-bodied zombies walking around would be too hard to digest (pun fully intended.) The casual viewer who is not into zombie movies won't notice and to him it will be just another zombie, but the zombie movie fan will know that it is not possible for them to be walking around as if nothing had happened to their corpses.

Fisher says this: "I once saw one of those things sitting behind the wheel of a car in D.C. trying to drive down Independence Avenue." So he did he see one of them trying to drive a car. He is not speaking hypothetically here. He is saying that zombies trying to carry out human activities does not make him want to be their friend, so in his opinion Logan is wasting his time trying to make Bub more human-like.

Just going to be disagreement. I'm sure Nicotero is not putting those easter eggs in this show for the casual viewer. I think the zombie fans rather enjoy and express excitement as evidenced on this page in the past seasons. The excitement never led to plausibility discussions of Bub or Stephen walking from PA to FL. We even had the airport zombie from dawn appear at Woodbury, who as we know took one of Rogers M-16 bullets to the brain.

Regarding Fisher. I'll be GD'd. I thought the guy actually said "If" all these years. I always considered that the operation was rushed and put together in a matter of days meant scientist Fisher didnt have time to stroll down Independence Ave. No doubt I misheard Fisher but I understood his point regarding Logan. Now I'm pissed about what other things I misheard in other movies. Old age is my excuse now but not in 85. Heck I thought the song "Cruel Summer" in Karate Kid was "Crusanda", so it goes without saying my hearing sucks in general.

MinionZombie

31-Oct-2015, 05:37 PM

Buzzbomb

31-Oct-2015, 06:32 PM

The zombie references added in for the fans aren't literally the same zombies from GAR's films - i.e. it's not literally Bub from Day of the Dead, who's somehow escaped the mine and walked all the way to Georgia, it's just a reference to make fans like us, who are also in-the-know, smile.

You mean the crate from 'Creepshow' that was glimpsed at Terminus in 5x01 (23mins 23secs in) wasn't the actual crate with the monster? ;):clown:

facestabber

31-Oct-2015, 06:48 PM

You mean the crate from 'Creepshow' that was glimpsed at Terminus in 5x01 (23mins 23secs in) wasn't the actual crate with the monster? ;):clown:

You just ruined my life!!!!

JDP

01-Nov-2015, 08:04 AM

Just going to be disagreement. I'm sure Nicotero is not putting those easter eggs in this show for the casual viewer. I think the zombie fans rather enjoy and express excitement as evidenced on this page in the past seasons. The excitement never led to plausibility discussions of Bub or Stephen walking from PA to FL. We even had the airport zombie from dawn appear at Woodbury, who as we know took one of Rogers M-16 bullets to the brain.

Regarding Fisher. I'll be GD'd. I thought the guy actually said "If" all these years. I always considered that the operation was rushed and put together in a matter of days meant scientist Fisher didnt have time to stroll down Independence Ave. No doubt I misheard Fisher but I understood his point regarding Logan. Now I'm pissed about what other things I misheard in other movies. Old age is my excuse now but not in 85. Heck I thought the song "Cruel Summer" in Karate Kid was "Crusanda", so it goes without saying my hearing sucks in general.

Consider it this way: all the tribute zombies shown so far are of ones that we have actually seen in zombie movies. So a Rickles or Steel zombie would not make sense since they never turned (assume here that Steel did not completely damage his brain when he shot himself and he could have come back as a zombie, just for argument's sake), at least not in one piece. There never was any "Rickles zombie" or "Steel zombie". They were torn apart by the mob of zombies that invaded the bunker, so we never get to see them come back. Bub (whoever he was before he became a zombie) and Stephen could turn into zombies because their corpses were left in good enough shape to turn. So they appeared as zombies in those movies. They can be "tributed" because they actually became zombies.

Do you know which character from that movie should be shown as a zombie in The Walking Dead? Dr. Logan. That guy should be a zombie. In fact, if Nicotero shows a Logan-zombie at long last he would be correcting the strange contradiction that he did not turn into a zombie in Day of the Dead, when he should actually have turned.

You might want to use the fact that you misheard what Fisher said as a pretext to re-watch the movie ;)

All of the scientists and soldiers in the movie obviously had personal lives before the zombie disaster, so we can very likely expect them to have come from several parts of the country. When the zombie disaster happened, Fisher must have been in D.C. We can easily assume that he was sent elsewhere to investigate the zombie phenomenon in that bunker with the other people.

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I would prefer to get away and hopping on the bin and over the fence IS the better option for that. It's only when they get to the fence and see that that there are zombies on teh other side, that it's nature becomes obvious. By that time option b is also effectively gone.

The zombies on the other side should not have prevented them from climbing the fence. They could go for the roof of the nearby blue building from the fence, instead of going to the other side of the street. But they did not. Going to the top of a fence with barbed wire is not easy, that's why they put it there.

The point, which you seem to be missing, is that over the fence is option A and moving the debris, going up the stairs and hoping that the door at the isn't locked is a poor option B. In the time there is to make a choice, option A looks to be the better one.

In the space of less than 20 seconds, Glenn and Nicholas run into the alleyway, run toward the fence, try the ground door, see the zombies behind the fence and turn to see the zombies have caught up and cornered them.

What we are shown in 20 seconds is just editing. Look at the distance the zombies are at from the stairs when it finally dawns on Glenn that the end of the alley is pretty much a dead-end. Nicholas has not arrived yet at the end of the alley and is still looking for exits. He has the stairway right there to his left, yet he goes for the same dead-end as Glenn. Glenn should have told Nicholas right there "Head for the staircase!" instead of letting him try to climb the fence that he knew would be too difficult to climb.

Yes, over the fence is the obvious choice as a getaway. :D

If it didn't have barbed wire on top, maybe.

Nobody knows how they're going to react especially in a huge group like that. That's what makes zombies such a dangerous and great movie monster. One thing is for sure though. They are unrelenting and do not tire or stop and with that in mind I wouldn't be on for putting myself in the middle of them and hoping I could kill a couple of hundred with my limited ammo and knife.

From all that we have seen so far, we can predict that they are stumped by rather clumsy barriers that would never have stopped a living person.

But that HAS to be decided as option A and you'd want to be fucking mad to do that, when there's a scalable fence less than 50 metres away. Nobody would ignore that getaway and decide to place themselves in the of a hundred creatures that want to rip you to shreds.

The scenario you're trying to outline simply doesn't exist.

The scenario I am outlining exists and is the easiest one of the two: Moving a mattress a bit to the side and squeezing through some pallets & barrels to get to the stairs vs. Climbing on top of a fence with barbed wired.

There was any other choice for Glenn and Nicholas either. By the time they see that there are zeds on the other side of the fence too, the zombies have passed the stairs.

Not only did they have another choice, but in fact they had two: there's actually two buildings with stairs in that alley.

Their "plan" is getting away from the zombies. When they run into the ally, Nicholas tries the fence to his left. Glenn runs to the end of the alley and tires the blue door. It's locked. He then looks through the fence and sees the zeds and looks behind to see the blocked stairs. Meanwhile Nick has caught up and immediately tries to scale the fence and gets put off by the zombies on the other side.

The zombies are on the other side of the fence. The only thing that that would have prevented them from doing is climbing down to the other side of the fence. But they could still have tried to climb it. Nicholas tried, but he fell down. It is not as easy as it looks. It is far more difficult to climb a fence than walking up stairs. And on top of that there's the barbed wire on top that needs to be dealt with. The zombies would have reached the fence by then and would have started shaking it as they try to reach up to get you. This scenario has loads of problems. An experienced fellow like Glenn should have had all of this in mind before allowing himself to be cornered in that alley.

In the couple of seconds that that happened in, the zombies have actually passed the stairs.

That whole scene from entering the alley to the zombies passing the staircase is 20 seconds.

Again, I'll say this (and it's last from me on it because our twain isn't going to meet on this)...Glenn and Nick are terrified, exhausted, and looking for a way to put distance between them and the things that want to rip them to pieces. They also don't have the time, or POV that the viewers have had to mull over and discuss every single possibility...and lastly, if they HAD simply scaled the fence and got away, not one single person would be even talking about the stairs and anything but a blocked passage.

But the script did have them fail to climb the fence, so we can talk about it. Was trying to climb a barbed wire fence the best choice? No. Was there another choice that might have been easier? Yes. If the barrier at the bottom of the stairs also had barbed wire around it, then you could argue that it would also be too difficult to overcome it in enough time before the zombies arrive, but as it was, that barrier was not very difficult for a human to get through.

facestabber

01-Nov-2015, 03:10 PM

Consider it this way: all the tribute zombies shown so far are of ones that we have actually seen in zombie movies. So a Rickles or Steel zombie would not make sense since they never turned (assume here that Steel did not completely damage his brain when he shot himself and he could have come back as a zombie, just for argument's sake), at least not in one piece. There never was any "Rickles zombie" or "Steel zombie". They were torn apart by the mob of zombies that invaded the bunker, so we never get to see them come back. Bub (whoever he was before he became a zombie) and Stephen could turn into zombies because their corpses were left in good enough shape to turn. So they appeared as zombies in those movies. They can be "tributed" because they actually became zombies.

Do you know which character from that movie should be shown as a zombie in The Walking Dead? Dr. Logan. That guy should be a zombie. In fact, if Nicotero shows a Logan-zombie at long last he would be correcting the strange contradiction that he did not turn into a zombie in Day of the Dead, when he should actually have turned.

Flyboy and airport zombie were both shot in the brain and I enjoyed their homeage in TWD. Since both are effectively destroyed, their appearance is just as impossible as Steele and Rickles would be. But that's taking it too serious and this isn't meant to be. I don't think anyone here is asking for realism. Lifelong genre fans enjoy the tribute.

Yes Logan would be great. Or even have TWD characters walk past a downed helicopter with same paint scheme as flyboys. Maybe throw in a black SWAT cop zombified inside.

bassman

01-Nov-2015, 03:48 PM

They're definitely not meant to be THE zombie characters. They're all just little references for the fans to spot. If they were treating them as the "real characters" from the previous films, that would mean TWD exists in the same world as Jaws and American Werewolf in London. Just wouldn't make sense...

Staredge

01-Nov-2015, 08:44 PM

The other part of the staircase decision is this: they don't know what's behind the door. By the time Glenn starts trying the door on ground level, he's already seen the walkers on the other side of the fence, and the ones coming down the alley are too close for them to get back to the stairs.

Moon Knight

01-Nov-2015, 11:43 PM

ProfessorChaos

02-Nov-2015, 04:25 AM

rewatching the episode tonight before the new one aired, i noticed a few other things:

1. glenn's shirt is buttoned most of the episode, but he must have somehow found time to unbutton it once he got to the top of the dumpster. his t-shirt is very close to the same color as nicolas's shirt. in fact, they are dressed very very similarly from head-to-toe.

2. glenn and nicolas both fall and appear to land with their feet facing the dumpster, but once they have a lower view of the action down where glenn and nicolas land, they have miraculously spun around and now their heads are at the base of the dumpster.

3. the fence that is behind the dumpster is no longer there when they show the large overhead shot of the walkers feasting (on nicolas).

the cinematography and continuity on this show is just ass sometimes. hard to believe they miss this sort of stuff in the editing room.

andy, i'm so convinced that glenn is still alive (and the writers and filmmakers did such a crap job of making it more believable), that i'm willing to put my money where my mouth (keyboard) is and match you on that 100 dollar bet if you're not joking. however, given the evidence i've laid out and how much steam this theory has built on numerous websites since the episode aired, i don't blame you if you're having second thoughts.:p

JDP

02-Nov-2015, 10:22 AM

Flyboy and airport zombie were both shot in the brain and I enjoyed their homeage in TWD. Since both are effectively destroyed, their appearance is just as impossible as Steele and Rickles would be. But that's taking it too serious and this isn't meant to be. I don't think anyone here is asking for realism. Lifelong genre fans enjoy the tribute.

Yes Logan would be great. Or even have TWD characters walk past a downed helicopter with same paint scheme as flyboys. Maybe throw in a black SWAT cop zombified inside.

But at least Flyboy became a zombie. Rickles and Steel did not. We know it is not possible for them to be zombies at all, and so they did not appear as zombies in that movie. So a zombified Rickles & Steel reference would not make much sense. Logan, on the other hand, should have turned. If there is any character from that movie that should justifiably be shown as a zombie it is him.

Seeing what happened to the chopper and Peter would be fine, and it could be conceivable since we have no idea what happened to them after they fly away from the mall, so it is perfectly possible they crashed and Peter turned into a zombie.

- - - Updated - - -

The other part of the staircase decision is this: they don't know what's behind the door. By the time Glenn starts trying the door on ground level, he's already seen the walkers on the other side of the fence, and the ones coming down the alley are too close for them to get back to the stairs.

They still had time to head for the stairs. When Glenn sees the door is locked and realizes that climbing the fence is not going to be easy, the zombies are still behind the building with the stairs, Nicholas still has time to go to the fence, jump on and try to climb it (only to fall back down.) Instead of giving that almost dead-end a second try, they should have tried getting to the stairs.

- - - Updated - - -

rewatching the episode tonight before the new one aired, i noticed a few other things:

1. glenn's shirt is buttoned most of the episode, but he must have somehow found time to unbutton it once he got to the top of the dumpster. his t-shirt is very close to the same color as nicolas's shirt. in fact, they are dressed very very similarly from head-to-toe.

2. glenn and nicolas both fall and appear to land with their feet facing the dumpster, but once they have a lower view of the action down where glenn and nicolas land, they have miraculously spun around and now their heads are at the base of the dumpster.

3. the fence that is behind the dumpster is no longer there when they show the large overhead shot of the walkers feasting (on nicolas).

the cinematography and continuity on this show is just ass sometimes. hard to believe they miss this sort of stuff in the editing room.

andy, i'm so convinced that glenn is still alive (and the writers and filmmakers did such a crap job of making it more believable), that i'm willing to put my money where my mouth (keyboard) is and match you on that 100 dollar bet if you're not joking. however, given the evidence i've laid out and how much steam this theory has built on numerous websites since the episode aired, i don't blame you if you're having second thoughts.:p

Some people are arguing that such contradictions in the sequence are a sign that it is Nicholas just imagining what would happen if he killed himself in that situation, so what we see "did not really happen". Personally, I think they are just what you pointed out: editing and continuity mistakes. The events in the sequence did happen. Nicholas killed himself and unintentionally dragged down Glenn with him into the zombie mosh pit. It remains to be seen how can he possibly escape the attention of all those zombies around him staring down in his direction. It is possible for him to crawl under the dumpster, but in the process he would also get bit. There is just no way that all of the zombies around him are going to fail to see him moving. Realistically speaking, Glenn can't get out of this one unscathed.