TWD 6x04 "Here's Not Here" (90min) episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN*

[MinionZombie]

Please keep all talk of episode 6x04 "Here's Not Here" specifically inside this thread.

If you have a theory for a following episode, please use the "spoiler tags" (visit the HPOTD FAQ to find out how to use them if you don't already know).

Similarly, if you're going to discuss plot points from the comic book, please use "spoiler tags" - not everyone is up-to-date on them, and some people don't read them at all.

Enjoy!

Directed by: Stephen Williams
Written by: Scott M. Gimple

Gimple's on scripting duties? Should be a good one - looking forward to it! Also remember that this is an extended episode! :hyper:

[Moon Knight]

This one will be more like a stand alone film. I must say, Ive been looking forward to this story but the timing couldn't have been worse, dammit. Haha.

[Staredge]

Loved it.

[rongravy]

Boooo, not a fan of Morgan, and he is bad luck to everyone around him due to random flake outs at the most inopportune times.
I had originally wrote a much longer post, elaborating on my dislike for his short term mastery of Aikido, and my general peeve on how easily zombies and people can be speared, or kitana chopped, like they were made of styrofoam.
Anyhoo, wish 90 minutes wouldn't have been wasted on him. Since he got this, does it mean his days are numbered?
End him. He even got his Aikido Master munched on. WTF?!?

[ProfessorChaos]

that was rather decent, really enjoyed seeing john carroll lynch as eastman (perhaps a nod to marilyn eastman?) in this one. his acting was superb, great character with a great story. gotta be honest, was bit disappointed with his demise and how it went down, but overall a very solid entry, that like moon knight said, comes at a bad time since they are leaving the glenn issue yet unresolved. and judging by the previews for next week, it looks like we won't find out then, either.....

so i will have to wait another week for my money from andy.

EDIT: and yes, the aikido bit was sort of hokey, you can't take that sort of attitude with the likes of ISIS, serial murderers, rapists, the wolves, etc.....even though it wasn't that pacifist outlook that is directly responsible for eastman's death. morgan and his hesitation have lead to the deaths of his son, eastman, and that poor goat. he almost certainly, though inadvertently, put forth events that lead to rick's ambush and will most likely jeopardize others in the future with his ways. ready for his story to be over.

[zomtom]

For me, it was just an okay episode. This episode would have been alright somewhere else in the season. With the fate of Glenn in the air, the last thing I want to watch is Morgan learning to play with his stick for 90 minutes (and seriously; an expanded episode for THAT material??). I really love Morgan and I know he is a fan favorite. I hope the writers aren't going to do an "Andrea" with his storyline. I can see fans starting to turn on his character as they did with Andrea. I realize they tried to explain his peaceful philosophy but it doesn't hold up when that same philosophy is putting his friends in jeopardy.

[JDP]

Not bad, but as the previous user pointed out, this should not have been a 90 minute episode. Save those extended episodes for more relevant stuff.

[Moon Knight]

that was rather decent, really enjoyed seeing john carroll lynch as eastman (perhaps a nod to marilyn eastman?) in this one. his acting was superb, great character with a great story. gotta be honest, was bit disappointed with his demise and how it went down, but overall a very solid entry, that like moon knight said, comes at a bad time since they are leaving the glenn issue yet unresolved. and judging by the previews for next week, it looks like we won't find out then, either.....

so i will have to wait another week for my money from andy.

EDIT: and yes, the aikido bit was sort of hokey, you can't take that sort of attitude with the likes of ISIS, serial murderers, rapists, the wolves, etc.....even though it wasn't that pacifist outlook that is directly responsible for eastman's death. morgan and his hesitation have lead to the deaths of his son, eastman, and that poor goat. he almost certainly, though inadvertently, put forth events that lead to rick's ambush and will most likely jeopardize others in the future with his ways. ready for his story to be over.

Eastman was most likely a nod to TMNT Co-creator Kevin Eastman.

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I loved this episode as it was wonderfully acted and was such a needed departure from the previous three episodes. However, the placing and timing of this episode definitely hurt it a bit; as well as people turning on Morgan after "JSS".

This really did feel like a stand alone film.

Anyone else notice how they took Steven Yeun's name off the credits? Haha who are they fooling?

Also, for those upset about not finding the resolution considering Glenn's "death" angle, unless they fit it in during the end sequence of next week's episode, we may not find closure until either episode 7 or 8. It's Sophia all over again.

[MinionZombie]

I went into this episode sceptical that 65 minutes of all Morgan backstory could work, and was secretly hoping we'd possibly get a mix that allowed us to see some resolution to the Glenn issue ... ... however: consider me totally won-over.

A really cool episode - beautifully acted, shot, and written - and while it is a big old todger tease leaving us still no further forward regarding Glenn, in some ways it's the perfect time to have this episode:

1) We need a breather after three pretty full-on episodes that have escalated with each one. We need something calmer, particularly as a hell of a lot more shit is about to hit the fan in the remainder of the season.

2) We've only just got Morgan back, and as some have said, we're questioning his philosophy - so therefore it is the ideal time to deal with said philosophy.

I'm slightly surprised they dedicated an extended episode to it as those have usually been afforded to something more epic, but when you think about it that's more of an impression. 1x01 was epic in many ways - but it was also incredibly intimate and focussed primarily on a single character. 5x16 was surprisingly mild for the most part (albeit with some rather tasty moments thrown in), but it wasn't the grandiose spectacle we were kind of expecting. 6x01 is pretty epic - but it also cuts back and forth to, again, much more intimate moments. There's a lot of info dished out in all these extended episodes.

Had this episode been shorter, I'm not sure the progression of Morgan's mindset would have really been sold. If you thought he learned Aikido too quick, then cramming a complete character and emotional switch-about into a normal length episode would have felt nothing but rushed. They needed that time to show the gradual progression - and even after it all, Morgan still almost goes back to his old ways. Returning to his crazy camp was like a test of his newfound faith. It was interesting what Lennie James said on Talking Dead - that Morgan seeing the walker version of the young man he strangled to death was like a sign that Morgan's time to die had come, that Morgan was one of those people who wanted to die but could never do it himself, but always put himself in harms way to try and force an external force to snuff him out. So when Eastman kills that walker - and gets himself bit in the process - it's like robbing Morgan of the demise he'd been chasing for so long.

Of course, it eventually forces him to fully accept his new outlook on life. To be fair to Morgan killing hadn't done anything for him - he was bereft and suffering from PTSD (and is likely still struggling with its effects) - he'd been out there murdering walkers and humans alike. As we saw when he killed those two other humans, they were just desperate for human contact and help - they seemed like villains initially, but very suddenly things changed when the young man pleaded for his life and clearly these were good guys ... and Morgan murdered them both without a second thought. He was in an extraordinarily dark place - here he gained a complete spiritual overhaul, but he still feels he needs to pay for his past actions.

Some groovy walker effects too - I loved the one with the manky back which Morgan killed by shoving his death stick up into the base of the skull. That was nifty!

As for when we'll find out Glenn's fate? Possibly 6x05 - but probably 6x06 - or, hell, even 6x07 considering how things might be paced out with the walker herd approaching Alexandria. There's so much going on right now that you can't deal with it all simultaneously in every episode, but it also makes sound sense in terms of storytelling strategy. You want people to be excited and eager for next week's episode, you want to tease them along at an appropriate pace (I do feel the Sophia 'mystery' was far too strung out - and really only ever had one probable outcome). The Glenn mystery will be over fewer episodes than Sophia, but there'll also be a hell of a lot going on between 6x03's shock moment and us finding out if/how Glenn survives.

Another interesting tidbit from Lennie James on Talking Dead that stood out - he said that Morgan understands the consequences of his actions, but still believes he's making the right decision ultimately. Even without any interference from him, people in Rick's group have died, are dying, and will die. Some, not all, though.

I do think there's a chance for Morgan to change his stance and take on a more pragmatic version of his attempt at peace. Notice how he told the story to the Wolf in the hope that it would have the effect on him that Eastman's actions had on Morgan - and initially it seems like there might be some getting through - but then the Wolf clearly shows he's not going to change his code. I think the code aspect plays into Morgan's mind ... but then also note how Morgan locked the door. He thought about not locking it (as Eastman had done), but then opted to lock it. I think Morgan's methods are beginning to flex in the face of harsh reality ... however, if that Wolf doesn't escape and cause some trouble I'd be surprised (perhaps the final nail in Morgan's extraordinary search for absolute peace).

...

TWD 6x04 Memes:

http://deadshed.blogspot.co.uk/2015/11/big-tease-edition-walking-dead-6x04.html
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-VEvX_jciZ1A/VjeXqdoWftI/AAAAAAAAEWA/45nZKKdxxhQ/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_6_Meme_Morgan_Eastman_What _Happened_Glenn_Next_Week_Maybe_6x04_DeadShed.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-KP-0fDgu41Y/VjeXuWhgU9I/AAAAAAAAEWI/6ZX7nOeleBM/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_6_Meme_Morgan_Wolf_Kill_Hi m_Rage_Table_Flip_6x04_DeadShed.jpg



:)

[Doc]

I'm in the 'it didn't do anything for me' camp.

I don't like this arbitrary radical change on Morgan. And it appears some of the WD fanbase doesn't either as he's lost considerable appeal and is quickly losing ground becoming quite unpopular much like Andrea and Lori. Trying to reason with guys that were committing gruesome murders he could have prevented and letting them go for one of them to acquire a gun to later attack and tried to kill Rick!?!?!
I can see the reason why some people want him axed already.

I did like the first 15 minutes with 'Clear' Morgan though and in any other context Eastman could've been a good character. Not in this unfortunately.

Tabitha the goat was the best character in this.

[Neil]

I liked the episode generally. I like a periodic slow down/drama episode every now and then. Not sure it merited being quite so long... But I enjoyed it!

[kidgloves]

Didn't enjoy it band. Was bored tbh. Just makes me think that Morgans a goner this season.
It's always been about Rick and Carl for me and them taking this detour during the main storyline has just irratated me. I dont think they're going to resolve the Glen situation anytime soon either

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I'm also looking forward to my $100 from Andy.

[Moon Knight]

I can see why some folks are dissapointed and annoyed with Morgan so an entire 90 min episode dedicated to him no matter how well done will surely turn them off at this point. Me personally I dig the character. Can't have everyone like Rick and Carol. He's a good divide. However, trust me he pissed me off too on "JSS" but I take it that was kind of the point. Just my opinion anyway. I usually don't look for the negatives in TV or I'm always going to be dissapointed. Unless it's WWE. That shit is beyond frustrating haha.

One thing I will say is, this type of back and forth storytelling works with Game of Thrones but it doesn't work for me with TWD. So, like Kidgloves said, I want Rick to be in pretty much every episode. He's my favorite and there isn't any reason why we should have multiple episodes back to back without him included somehow tbh. Episode 6 he's pretty much missing again. Sigh.

[DayoftheZ]

I think this is going to be an episode that is best watched as part of a TWD marathon.

For the most part I enjoyed the episode and liked the character of Eastman very much indeed, especially his back story. I also liked the fact that we got to find out how Morgan got to be the frustratingly forgiving good guy we saw in JSS. It does however raise the question of why he is being so harsh on Rick when Eastman cut him some slack while being further lost than Rick. This is strengthened by the fact he seems keen to hug the wolf who has told him to his face that he will kill them all (mirroring Tyresse’s run in with the termite and subsequent payoff.) A lot rides on how Morgan’s payoff compares to Tyresse on if he is the next Andrea or the next Carol.

I agree though that when we stray too far away from Rick Grimes you lose momentum and I am not sure we really needed an extended Morgan episode especially when Carol didn’t get one post prison and she is far more interesting. Interestingly though the response to this week’s episode on Twitter was generally positive when compared to the other this in Season 6.
I look forward to next week’s episode although it looks like it could be a slow one again with the survivors probably joining last night’s episode with the last line “open the gates”.

[MinionZombie]

Much like a good mix tape you kick things off with a bang, then escalate matters - but then you've gotta cool it down a notch - 6x04 is cooling it down a notch.

You simply can't have every single episode be full-on, and nor can you crowbar in an appearance from any one particular character into every single episode because you're limiting your storytelling options. Rollercoasters go down as well as up, they go left and they go right - you need a full spectrum of movement in a story - with the herd coming for Alexandria there's going to be some serious shit getting churned up in the fan, so you need to take a breath before that happens.

If every single episode was highly strung tension-o-rama with full-bore action-a-go-go splattered all over it then it would become very samey.

Also, not every character is going to act the way we personally might want them to, just like in real life where there's people whose outlook seems crazy to us (just like we possibly seem crazy to them). If every character fell into line on the exact same path then, again, that would make proceedings very samey and further limit your storytelling options. Conflict is key, characters learning and changing is key.

An "ideal" world, apocalyptic or not, makes for boring stories.

Something, again on Talking Dead, that I thought was interesting was that they shot the episodes 1-3, 5-8, and then 4. To me at least, that suggests wider themes that'll play out over the rest of 6A (possibly even 6B as well) - so even more reason for this episode to sit exactly where it is. ;)

[Moon Knight]

For the record, I don't mind stand alone episodes without Rick like "The Grove" "JSS" and "Here's not Here", I just really dislike when we get them back to back. Think the back half of season 4 and episodes like "Slabtown".

[shootemindehead]

Much like a good mix tape you kick things off with a bang, then escalate matters - but then you've gotta cool it down a notch

That depends on what music you like. ;)


Anyway, for me, this was a curious choice of material to hang on extended minutes, TBPH. Maybe the wolves attack episode would have been a better episode for that?

I like Morgan and all, but putting that episode there is a bit jarring and it certainly didn't need to be any longer than normal.

[Mr. Clean]

It was an ok episode.

I think it's a good acknowledgment of how the people around us influence our behaviors. Morgan was brought back from the edge and now he is struggling with attempting to pay it forward. I think Morgan is making a huge mistake that will cost someone their life. Possibly a member of Rick's group.

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I'm also looking forward to my $100 from Andy.

lol me too :D

[bassman]

I've been a huge fan of Lennie James and Morgan since the pilot episode, so I loved this episode. I have a feeling there will be more solo Morgan episodes showing his connection to the wolves....

[Trin]

I liked Morgan in the Pilot and later when they brought him back. Interesting character and seemingly a great asset to any group. So I'm not anti-Morgan.

The episode was well shot, and well acted, and I liked the pace. Eastman was an interesting character and I liked the change in atmosphere. I liked that they are willing to slow things down and delve into back-story. So I'm not anti-episode or anti this kind of episode style.

That said, this was a silly episode that just made me like Morgan less. Prior to this he was a zombie-killin-badass whose questionable philosophy arguably endangered the group more often than his skills helped the group. He was a pretty interesting character. Now he's a semi-reformed murderous nutjob who is harboring a current murderous nutjob with an unrealistic expectation of future reformation (the Wolf guy is SOOO not who Morgan was when Eastman found him) to the EXTREME endangerment of the group. So in my mind the scale has tipped ... Morgan is no longer worth it and not interesting enough to cover the gap.

My impression of the episode itself was that the intention was that we, the audience, would go, "Wow, what a cool backstory and I totally get Morgan now." However, my reaction was, "What a stupid backstory and can we please kill Morgan now?"