TWD 6x13 "The Same Boat" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN*

[MinionZombie]

Please keep all talk of episode 6x13 "The Same Boat" specifically inside this thread.

If you have a theory for a following episode, please use the "spoiler tags" (visit the HPOTD FAQ to find out how to use them if you don't already know).

Similarly, if you're going to discuss plot points from the comic book, please use "spoiler tags" - not everyone is up-to-date on them, and some people don't read them at all.

Enjoy!

Directed by: Billy Gierhart
Written by: Angela Kang

[kidgloves]

Looking forward to this episode for the 1st time in a long time.
The last 2 have been excellent despite the usual terrible dialogue and other complaints that I have.
The misdirection is being done very well and is pushing the story forward at a good pace.
I think we may lose more than 1 major character before the seasons over as well.

[Moon Knight]

Looking forward to this episode for the 1st time in a long time.
The last 2 have been excellent despite the usual terrible dialogue and other complaints that I have.
The misdirection is being done very well and is pushing the story forward at a good pace.
I think we may lose more than 1 major character before the seasons over as well.

I'm curious, what terrible dialogue are you referring to? I know some of the minor one off characters are a bit meh when it comes down to that but terrible dialogue from the main cast in every episode?

[facestabber]

God damn these episodes are pure violence. Maggie and Carol were cool before but this is a different level. This stuff is gonna mess with my head.

[Moon Knight]

I wasn't really feeling this one up until the last 15 min than the intensity kicked in. The slow burn of a build really got you questioning Carol. Maggie being the cold one really surprised me but this really has got her character's storyline heading in the right direction. Kudos. Like Facestabber alluded to, these last couple episodes are just dark, man, and I'm loving it. Great character piece for two characters who I believed just shared screen time together for the very first time.

[MinionZombie]

A bit of a pot boiler, this one - a sort of chamber piece - very character centric, and all the more powerful for it after the previous episode's lead-filled finale.

I really dug the Carol/Maggie mix - but also dug that they each had someone in the Savior gang who was their mirror, their sort of negative image, their bizarro universe incarnation - what they'd be if they hadn't strived to be as good as they could in the circumstances. Paula, for example, clearly gave up trying to be a good person - she stopped feeling - she just exists. I think, had Shane lived - but split from Team Rick - he'd have very easily ended up either in The Saviors, or in a Saviors-like gang.

Hey - there's a spin-off 'what if' special Kirkman could do in the comics, or even have done as a spin-off 'what if' novel - what if Shane had lived, but gone his own way, only to once again come face-to-face with Team Rick when they met The Saviors (Shane having joined The Saviors not too long after splitting from Team Rick)? That'd make for a fun 'alternative TWD universe' side story, what do you think?

Melissa McBride absolutely rocked this episode - as did Lauren Cohan - but it was definitely Carol in the driving seat here. Great to see the weight of war really hitting some of these characters. They almost went too far - found Alexandria, came back from the brink, but now find themselves back in the pure filth of the apocalypse. It's rough stuff - but very satisfying drama to watch unfold.

Paula's demise - brutally brilliant!

Great to see Maggie make an about turn and realise she doesn't want to keep doing this - there's more in this world now for her.

In terms of Team Rick covering their tracks - they're solid - except for two possibilities:
1) Gregory rats them out to the Saviors if/when the Saviors come snooping around for any info - and threaten Gregory (perhaps believing it was the Hilltop that attacked their satellite outpost).
2) Heath & Tara driving around in one of the Savior's vehicles - and getting spotted/caught.

Now, to be fair to H&T, they left before the encounter with Paula et al - so in their view the Saviors are toast - but FFS, at least take the license plates off and do something to change the appearance of the vehicle (smash out a window, make some dents, remove a bumper, dirty it up etc) so you could make it pass as the same model as that vehicle, but not that particular vehicle. Of course, you could still run the risk of any straggler Saviors putting two and two together - missing vehicle at the satellite outpost, then this one driving around that looks similar. You could swap out the number plates along the way with another vehicle, though ... but even still.

I think the car might very well be the piece of evidence they overlook that causes a whole heap of trouble.

Anyway - very satisfied with this episode - it starts quiet and subdued, but the tension really ratchets up gradually until it all kicks off.

I'm constantly finding myself pleased with the wealth of talent they're bringing in for these main player one-episode arcs, too. :cool:

...

TWD 6x13 Memes:
http://deadshed.blogspot.co.uk/2016/03/cool-as-carol-edition-walking-dead-6x13.html#more


https://3.bp.blogspot.com/--uP_feVFDHQ/Vubk12kz7wI/AAAAAAAAEsI/7wVGC-6IEP415L7bv74EaXgMEUUzz6uCg/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_6_Meme_Carol_Paula_Think_Y ou_Beat_Hanging_Back_F_Their_Day_Up_6x13_DeadShed. jpg

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-VAGkSa2Pp3c/Vubkz95iscI/AAAAAAAAEsE/w5DiRQOoXjQQCuSpT7jwxWNMHAv2xPTgg/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_6_Meme_Carol_Molly_Things_ Kill_You_Cigarettes_Walkers_6x13_DeadShed.jpg


:)

[kidgloves]

I'm curious, what terrible dialogue are you referring to? I know some of the minor one off characters are a bit meh when it comes down to that but terrible dialogue from the main cast in every episode?

The writers seem to love having the characters talk in meta terms instead of the situation at hand in a natural conversation.
Drives me nuts.

[facestabber]

Funny you mention Shane, Minion because I was thinking about him this episode. Speaking of which, where the hell is Wylde? Ok back to Shane. Paula's story about killing her boss to survive reminded me of Shane's similar and quick jump to this world's rule book. For my taste Shane moved too fast and it showed in his instability. But I can't deny Shane's intuition as to what the world was now. Fast forward to Rick in this episode. He is far removed from the man who genuinely said "sorry" to biker girl before blasting her brains. And even more removed from 18 miles out Rick. Saddest damn thing to me was if Shane and Ricks love triangle could have been solved peacefully, they would make an even more dominant duo than any other cast member.

Wylde, come back man.

[DayoftheZ]

That episode was tense as hell, my backside was clinging onto the sofa for dear life not knowing what was going to happen next.

Carol is just such a great character and almost the perfect one for a Living Dead story. She has so many layers that you just never know which way her personality is going to swing. Maggie was amazing also and the near miss wake up call was a nice and realistic touch as she was getting pretty reckeless there for a moment.

I also really like the whole "we are all Negan" thing. It really shows the saviours have a common goal, which is in contrast to the Woodbury arc. Conisdering how lukewarm I was to this section of the Comics I really am digging seeing the TV version, in fact this episode is way up on my list of all time favourites.

- - - Updated - - -



In terms of Team Rick covering their tracks - they're solid - except for two possibilities:
1) Gregory rats them out to the Saviors if/when the Saviors come snooping around for any info - and threaten Gregory (perhaps believing it was the Hilltop that attacked their satellite outpost).
2) Heath & Tara driving around in one of the Savior's vehicles - and getting spotted/caught.

I wouldnt be suprised if there are some survivors in the burning Kill Floor. There looked to be a dry corner of the room where perhaps you could survive maybe (although probably not) If you look one of the saviours runs right into the dry corner.

[Moon Knight]

The writers seem to love having the characters talk in meta terms instead of the situation at hand in a natural conversation.
Drives me nuts.

Yes, sir, fair enough.

Now, how great is f*cking Carol? I loved how she made sure to leave tracks just knowing Daryl wouldn't be too far behind. A little touch that's easy to miss early on as she's walking and we are witnessing it from her pov.

What's also great is how this episode shows us what our team looks like to the Saviors; as we are seeing them from a strangers perspective. Very cool and chilling.

I have a very bad feeling about the next episode and from a personal perspective I may not like it.

[shootemindehead]

Well, there it is...

That was the best episode of this (rather lukewarm) season. Hard to top that for tension.

[Neil]

Hey! Good episode ... Nice change of pace from last weeks!

[facestabber]

Another very interesting tidbit that I forgot to mention was the thoughtful radio communication by the saviors. They are going to be a force. As soon as they knew an enemy had a radio they went to predetermined plan for alternate frequency. And that just adds to why I partly dread these last 3 episodes. These fukn saviors are gonna hurt my people in a bad way.

[MinionZombie]

Another very interesting tidbit that I forgot to mention was the thoughtful radio communication by the saviors. They are going to be a force. As soon as they knew an enemy had a radio they went to predetermined plan for alternate frequency. And that just adds to why I partly dread these last 3 episodes. These fukn saviors are gonna hurt my people in a bad way.

Innit! The sense of dread is strong right now on TWD.

Also, in this episode, it was good to see that 'the good guys' is to some extent relative. That said, The Saviours are clearly the real bastards here - running a protection racket like bullies of the post-apocalypse ("give us 'yer stuff and we won't cream ya!"), and judging by the characters we've so far met and interacted with, they're messed up kinda people. At best we have Paula - someone who just doesn't care - and at worst we've got utter scumbags who give off the stinkiest of vibes.

Our gang are compromised, sorely in some ways, but their constant striving for a better life, a better way of living, to invite people into their fold, to work with other groups (a recent advancement with The Hilltop) sets them distinctly apart from the scum of The Saviours or the Termites or the Claimers. Heck, The Saviours are making the worst that Woodbury had to offer look like primary school teachers with big rosy cheeks. :lol:

Shoot - "lukewarm season" ... ... :confused: ... ... you never make any sense to me. :D

[Moon Knight]

^ Minion I agree. "Lukewarm"? Lol. First four were great. Now, from there it kinda dips for me but "Heads Up" was good and the season finale was ok at best and since the return pretty damn amazing. These final three are gonna be killer. I think the whole Glenn fake out turned off some folks and I can understand that.

Shoot: Still nothing but love, bro. ;)

[bassman]

Decent episode, but I would've liked to have seen more of the group as a whole rather than just Carol and Maggie.

So I have a theory regarding a major event from the comics that should be coming up soon. Spoilers for those that haven't read the saviors comic story arc:
In the comics we know that Negan takes Lucille, his vampire bat, to Glenn's head while Glenn screams Maggie's name. This is obviously an event they won't be able to skip in the show's story, but we also know they like to switch characters around and put a twist on things. Given that Glenn had his fake death earlier this season, I have a hard time seeing them killing him off for real in the season finale. But I had the idea that what if they give this death to another character? Glenn is a fan favorite and they've teased with his demise enough this season, so I had the little theory that it might be Abraham. He's been getting this development involving his love for Sasha rather than Rosita, so they could possibly switch it up and have him be Megan's big victim, but he screams for Sasha instead of Rosita.

Just an off-the-wall theory of mine. Thoughts?

[JDP]

Does anyone remember if it was established in the previous episodes if Jesus or any other Hilltopper has ever seen Negan? Do we have to assume that they have not? Otherwise there wouldn't be any need for the group to be wondering if they have killed Negan or not. All it would take is for Jesus or whichever other Hilltopper has seen Negan to examine the Saviors' corpses and see if he is among them, that would settle the matter easily.

[Moon Knight]

Does anyone remember if it was established in the previous episodes if Jesus or any other Hilltopper has ever seen Negan? Do we have to assume that they have not? Otherwise there wouldn't be any need for the group to be wondering if they have killed Negan or not. All it would take is for Jesus or whichever other Hilltopper has seen Negan to examine the Saviors' corpses and see if he is among them, that would settle the matter easily.

I thought about that but Carol also witnessed Molly claim "We're all Negan", so I would assume they know they are still in some shit. If not then that's a pretty big plot hole.

Bassman-
For the biggest impact it has to be either Glenn, Daryl, or Carol. Your theory makes sense but Glenn screaming for Maggie is much more heartbreaking; and that is why my pick is still Glenn getting the bat. Earlier in the season I had Daryl pegged but in order for the story to move along nicely, Glenn makes the most sense. However, after this last episode, Carol has become a candidate. Can they do this to a woman? Man, this is getting intense.

[Neil]

BTW folks thanks for the (continued) considerate use of SPOILER tags to hide away comic book story references etc! It's appreciated!

[MinionZombie]

BTW folks thanks for the (continued) considerate use of SPOILER tags to hide away comic book story references etc! It's appreciated!

Here here. :thumbsup:


Just an off-the-wall theory of mine. Thoughts?

My thoughts (comic spoilers ahoy, and theories for the season 6 finale):

I think that maybe because they've done the near death experience arc for Glenn this season, that's why he will die by/in the finale. For one thing that's a huge part of Maggie's story moving forward and, particularly with Glenn having had to sacrifice another part of himself (killing humans now), you could argue that his story is complete. Also, it's such a huge event in the comics that it'd be strange for them not to include it.

I have wondered about Abraham - the mention of him and Eugene heading out as a team made me remember how Abraham died in the comics (although I wonder if they'll do that 'sudden bullet from the blue' as they used that mid-sentence death for Axel in season 3) - and I wondered if that was either: A) foreshadowing, or B) a red herrring. If the latter then he could die in the finale - I think your theory is a solid theory, although whether it will come to pass is an entirely different matter. I don't think it would have quite as much story impact as Glenn's death. In many ways Glenn is the moral compass of the show - he's taken that mantle on from both Dale and Hershel - and now that he's sacrificed a big part of that with the attack on the satellite outpost, there's almost a karmic kick in the arse on its way for him.

I'll be sad to see any of the characters go, to be honest.

However, yes, as also mentioned, I think Carol is being set up as a strong contender for a meeting with Lucille. Will we get two major deaths? Considering there's so few season one cast members remaining on the show, I'd prefer for them to really eek those kills out, so maybe if there was going to be two kills in the finale it could be Abraham and either Glenn or Carol. In terms of Carol, she's been having a lot of development this season, particularly in the last few episodes.

Tara and Heath are in danger, but I'm not particularly convinced either of them will bite the dust yet.

[shootemindehead]

Shoot - "lukewarm season" ... ... :confused: ... ... you never make any sense to me. :D

You'll understand one day son... :p

Yeh, this year TWD has sort of lost me on occasion. Or rather grabbed me, then threw me aside. I might have to sit down and watch it all in one go during the summer. The show always flows better in a marathon watch rather than week to week, I find.

I think maybe the miracle of Glenn and the weak mid-season break has left a bad taste in my mouth.

But anyway, yeh, that was the episode of the season for me, so far. So tense, it felt like it was on for just ten minutes. And Carol is still my fave character of entire show. Melissa McBride is nailing that part.



Shoot: Still nothing but love, bro.

:kiss:

[Zombie Snack]

Why wouldn't Rick or anyone in the group not think to ask Gregory or Jesus what this Negan guy looks like? Are we too assume Rick asked for a description of this man that he has just been contracted to kill. The entire plan seemed uncharacteristic from our group, but come on, if your going to go snipe hunting, you better know what a snipe is before you get in the woods.

[Bodanki]

Well that was a slog, just spent the last month reading every single review thread for the Walking Dead, from the pilot to this one.
You are interesting folk, Wyldewraiths Shane love, Shootem's hissy fits when the "Smell" thing is utilised, good reading.
Thought I would finally get involved. (Also hope Wylde comes back, loved his essays on Shane vs Rick and Morgans morality.)

I felt Season 6A wasn't as strong as Season 5, but so far 6B has knocked it out of the park.
How do I do spoiler tags on this site, just so I don't annoy Neil with Comic spoilers :)

- - - Updated - - -


Why wouldn't Rick or anyone in the group not think to ask Gregory or Jesus what this Negan guy looks like? Are we too assume Rick asked for a description of this man that he has just been contracted to kill. The entire plan seemed uncharacteristic from our group, but come on, if your going to go snipe hunting, you better know what a snipe is before you get in the woods.

Well I get the impression Hilltop have never seen Negan, he probably does that so he in essence becomes the boogey man, a thing of myth, nobody knows if he actually exists or not, and also to prevent himself becoming a target against possible assassination attempts.
Obviously Team Ricks incursions will cause him to come out of hiding to exact retribution.

I kinda agree with Ricks pre-emptive strike against the Saviours, though for me the smart thing to do would have been to have someone sly like Daryl watch the Saviours for a week or so, just do nothing but hide and watch, get an idea for what they are about, how they function, maybe follow some of them out on a run just to see where they go.
Its rather obvious that the facility they hit is an outpost rather than their main HQ.

I guess thats why they introduced the whole thing about it needing to be done now to rescue the Hilltop guy they had kept hostage, to make time a factor. But I think just blundering in with no information whatsoever was a risky move, one that somebody in Team Rick will ultimately pay the price for.

- - - Updated - - -

comic Spoiler......

yay read the FAQ's. So we know that someone will likely get Lucille'd in the finale, as we know it is Glenn in the comic. I have seen a lot of people say that they think it will be changed up in the TV show and I think that will be a good idea. My theory is that he will pick Glenn from the group and either Carol or Daryl will challenge him on his choice, calling him a racist. If I remember in the comics he initially spurned Michonne as an option for that reason. We will think its gonna be Glenn, but knowing he is about to become a father, i think Daryl or Carol will offer themselves in his place calling him a racist and he will change his choice and kill Daryl or Carol. Having him kill Daryl would be ballsy for AMC seeing as Daryl is the breakout star of the show, but what better way to make the internet explode and make everyone really hate Negan and up the stakes for next season than to have Daryl be the one to be Lucille'd. Like I said, would be ballsy, but also awesome, and it would rival Game Of Thrones Red wedding as the most depressing and shocking TV episode ever!

[facestabber]

I think you may be incorrect Bodanki regarding Hilltop seeing Negan. Jesus said Negan beat a 16 year old hilltop kid to death with Lucille. It is certainly possible Jesus didn't witness the event but was told by Hilltoppers. I don't see Negan as a guy that wants to hide in the background. Regardless welcome aboard.

[Bodanki]

I think you may be incorrect Bodanki regarding Hilltop seeing Negan. Jesus said Negan beat a 16 year old hilltop kid to death with Lucille. It is certainly possible Jesus didn't witness the event but was told by Hilltoppers. I don't see Negan as a guy that wants to hide in the background. Regardless welcome aboard.

Thanks.
Yeah i had forgotten about Hilltop telling Rick about Negan killing the kid.
That seems to be a small error then I suppose.
On the other hand though, from what I can make out, as far as Hilltop are concerned that Satellite place is the Saviours HQ, so they must have just assumed Negan would be in there.
Still you would have expected Jesus to look through the corpses to make sure Negan was one of them.

Also in this episode that guy tells Rick HE is Negan, causing Rick to gun him down instantly.
I hope they don't portray it that Rick thinks he has killed Negan, because Maggie and Carol know that is NOT Negan because Paula are her gang were referring to him by his ACTUAL name (Primo was it?) so they know that's not Negan.

[facestabber]

Thanks.
Yeah i had forgotten about Hilltop telling Rick about Negan killing the kid.
That seems to be a small error then I suppose.
On the other hand though, from what I can make out, as far as Hilltop are concerned that Satellite place is the Saviours HQ, so they must have just assumed Negan would be in there.
Still you would have expected Jesus to look through the corpses to make sure Negan was one of them.

Also in this episode that guy tells Rick HE is Negan, causing Rick to gun him down instantly.
I hope they don't portray it that Rick thinks he has killed Negan, because Maggie and Carol know that is NOT Negan because Paula are her gang were referring to him by his ACTUAL name (Primo was it?) so they know that's not Negan.


I think Rick and go were attacking the only 'known' savior installation falsely assuming that to be its entirety. As the saying goes, assumption is the mother of all fuck ups. I'd like to believe Carol and Maggie will tell Rick that their female captives said the same thing as the guy Rick smoked.

[JDP]

Thanks.
Yeah i had forgotten about Hilltop telling Rick about Negan killing the kid.
That seems to be a small error then I suppose.
On the other hand though, from what I can make out, as far as Hilltop are concerned that Satellite place is the Saviours HQ, so they must have just assumed Negan would be in there.
Still you would have expected Jesus to look through the corpses to make sure Negan was one of them.

Also in this episode that guy tells Rick HE is Negan, causing Rick to gun him down instantly.
I hope they don't portray it that Rick thinks he has killed Negan, because Maggie and Carol know that is NOT Negan because Paula are her gang were referring to him by his ACTUAL name (Primo was it?) so they know that's not Negan.

Such things are what prompted my question regarding this. It seems the group is unnecessarily speculating and making assumptions regarding Negan if they happen to know people who have actually seen what he looks like. Just have Jesus or whoever is it among Hilltoppers who has seen Negan to take a look at all the Savior's corpses and make an identification if he is there. If he isn't (and we, the viewers, know that he is not), then they should most certainly be on their guard and be extra careful from now on because they would know for sure that the leader of these wackos is still on the loose. They already went through a similar ordeal when the Governor escaped, had enough time to gather up a new group and come back for vengeance, which ended up costing them a lot. It is inconceivable that they would allow for something like that to happen again. It is in their best interest to make absolutely sure that the leader of this new threat is not still lurking around.

[Bodanki]

I think Rick and go were attacking the only 'known' savior installation falsely assuming that to be its entirety. As the saying goes, assumption is the mother of all fuck ups. I'd like to believe Carol and Maggie will tell Rick that their female captives said the same thing as the guy Rick smoked.

Yup, I hope they do.
Otherwise that will be one of those TV show things that annoy the hell out of me.
Even Game Of Thrones, my favourite TV show, is guilty of it. (Jon Snow, the Crows and the Wildlings for those who watch it).
Characters not passing on information they have gleaned that is hyper relevant, and then suffering for it and you are sat there saying "WTF didn't you just tell them X or Y!"

[MinionZombie]

Why wouldn't Rick or anyone in the group not think to ask Gregory or Jesus what this Negan guy looks like? Are we too assume Rick asked for a description of this man that he has just been contracted to kill. The entire plan seemed uncharacteristic from our group, but come on, if your going to go snipe hunting, you better know what a snipe is before you get in the woods.

Like Bodanki, I'm of the opinion that the Hilltoppers don't know what Negan looks like - they know of him, but that's as far as they know. With all this "we're all Negan" gubbins these Saviour freaks are spouting, it's possible that some of the Hilltoppers have seen Negan, but don't know that it's him specifically.

As I've said in previous threads, this is shaping up to be the pride before the fall for Team Rick. They've taken on everyone and won - they've had some loss along the way, but the team has always won - they're a little arrogant in their thinking, or they believe in themselves too much. There's not enough doubt to stop them for a moment to say "hang about, maybe let's calm this down a second and assess the situation fully..." - but yeah, they've rushed in head first. There was the hostage situation, but also getting involved with the Hilltoppers means that there's a risk of Negan's lot getting to know Team Rick before the hit comes. At this point Negan knows nothing about Team Rick, all he'll know is that he's lost a shed load of people somehow by someone's hand ... however, the longer they went without striking, the more risk they'd run of encountering the Saviours and losing all chance of a surprise attack.

So there's purpose in them rushing in, but there's also so much risk and possible bugger ups attached to that same method (and likewise as many up and down sides to waiting it out).



Characters not passing on information they have gleaned that is hyper relevant, and then suffering for it and you are sat there saying "WTF didn't you just tell them X or Y!"

Welcome aboard, Bodanki - glad to have you - and wow, that's some dedication reading through all those episode discussion threads! :stunned: :)

Also, yes, it always irks me when vital info doens't get shared with other characters. Sometimes it's for legitimate reasons, but other times it can be for dumb reasons - or not reason at all - and that is annoying. Then again, I suppose there are times in real life when you totally forget to ask a question or make a statement in the moment which, in hindsight, would have been exactly what you should have said - but you just didn't put two and two together. Even the smartest of people can overlook something, or forget to say something vital ... ... but yeah, it can be frustrating at times whenever that happens in a TV show or movie.

Generally on TWD though they're pretty smart, most of the time.

[Bodanki]

Like Bodanki, I'm of the opinion that the Hilltoppers don't know what Negan looks like - they know of him, but that's as far as they know. With all this "we're all Negan" gubbins these Saviour freaks are spouting, it's possible that some of the Hilltoppers have seen Negan, but don't know that it's him specifically.

As I've said in previous threads, this is shaping up to be the pride before the fall for Team Rick. They've taken on everyone and won - they've had some loss along the way, but the team has always won - they're a little arrogant in their thinking, or they believe in themselves too much. There's not enough doubt to stop them for a moment to say "hang about, maybe let's calm this down a second and assess the situation fully..." - but yeah, they've rushed in head first. There was the hostage situation, but also getting involved with the Hilltoppers means that there's a risk of Negan's lot getting to know Team Rick before the hit comes. At this point Negan knows nothing about Team Rick, all he'll know is that he's lost a shed load of people somehow by someone's hand ... however, the longer they went without striking, the more risk they'd run of encountering the Saviours and losing all chance of a surprise attack.

So there's purpose in them rushing in, but there's also so much risk and possible bugger ups attached to that same method (and likewise as many up and down sides to waiting it out).



Welcome aboard, Bodanki - glad to have you - and wow, that's some dedication reading through all those episode discussion threads! :stunned: :)

Also, yes, it always irks me when vital info doens't get shared with other characters. Sometimes it's for legitimate reasons, but other times it can be for dumb reasons - or not reason at all - and that is annoying. Then again, I suppose there are times in real life when you totally forget to ask a question or make a statement in the moment which, in hindsight, would have been exactly what you should have said - but you just didn't put two and two together. Even the smartest of people can overlook something, or forget to say something vital ... ... but yeah, it can be frustrating at times whenever that happens in a TV show or movie.

Generally on TWD though they're pretty smart, most of the time.

Hi MZ :)
I am jumping the gun, because Maggie and Carol may well inform Rick "Well they have been calling that guy Primo for the last couple of hours, NOT Negan"
They didn't really have time to say anything before the episode ended, so am hoping they do.

Yeah I found the episode reviews quite funny, just got addicted to reading them all, and it was fun reliving the episodes through the eyes of you guys and hearing your predictions for future eps that have now aired.
Wyldewraiths battle with most of the folk on here regarding Rick Vs Shane was great. (I fell on Wylds side by the way :))

[facestabber]

Also we have 4 saviors that were incinerated. The group may hypothesize that Negan was in that group of 4 returning because of the distress call. Their reasoning will probably be explained next episode. But at this point what else can they do besides assume more saviors are out there. I don't think they have leads as to where else to look.

[shootemindehead]

Shootem's hissy fits when the "Smell" thing is utilised



https://bunkercomplex.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/mystery-men-scream.gif

[Bodanki]

https://bunkercomplex.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/mystery-men-scream.gif

Lol.
For what its worth i always thought the smell thing was silly too. In my mind i always just prefer to think that walkers can sense humans on sight and somehow being covered in walker goo throws that sixth sense off and makes them undetectable.
I remeber same issue with a tv show i used to watch that had a vampire in it that smoked cigarettes. How in the fuck something undead that doesnt breathe can smell or inhale smoke I don't know. Never mind. :)

[Moon Knight]

I'm gonna be curious too if our group of survivors carry on like the job is done or will they still be looking for Negan. It's possible someone else killed that kid because the main Savior that Daryl, Sasha, and Abraham ran into said "They normally just pop one of you off right off the bat." So, to me, it's something that THE Saviors do in general; as I believe that dude was gonna shoot both Abe and Sasha before being blown to bits. Also, it's possible they were claiming to be Negan.

Minor comic spoiler that pertains to this episode only.

In the comics when Rick meets the Saviors on the road for the first time, the main talker also stated they are all Negan.

[Trin]

Carol and Maggie were privy to the radio discussions between the Saviors. They know how prepared the Saviors were to retreat, call for help, change frequences when radios were compromised and wait for reinforcement. So they know that there are more Saviors out there and that the Saviors are intelligent, prepared, tactical, organized, etc.

So let's just say that Abe's ass... and the ass of the entire group... should be itching like mad. They should be taking a collective gasp right now and wondering just how deep the shi-ite is that they've dove into head-first without looking.

I understand that the writers are building up a "pride before the fall" theme, and to an extent I can see the rationale behind it, but I consider it pure plot contrivance that the group has gone into this so blindly. It's forgivable because the episodes are pretty good, but the group has enough information now that they cannot justify further blind arrogance.

In spite of these episodes being decent enough, ultimately I'm with Shootme... the season is not great. I'm only partly invested and mostly because of these exact situations. The characters make sketchy, WTF-inducing decisions amidst storylines driven by plot contrivance. It just loses me. I end up watching as a spectator rather than as fully invested.

These last two episodes are prime examples. The plan was awful and ignored both the group's strengths (recon resources Daryl and Aaron) and common sense (assess the situation, gather information, etc). The execution was implausible in that we had multiple cluster-f*&k fire-fights with no friendly casualties. The two people who had the best chance of noticing someone approaching got captured because they were having an ill-timed, implausible argument. And I *still* think they would've noticed the approach.

The episodes weren't *bad*. They were decent and fun to watch. There was good character development and the plot progression was interesting in itself. And the "throw-away" characters were extremely well cast and acted.

But when TWD fires on all cylinders it is far far better. Carol's actions in this episode are a good example. When Carol portrays herself as meek and helpless the viewers see what she's doing and why, and it comes off as a great idea. It might actually be BETTER than what we'd think of on our own, and it's exactly what we expect from her character. It resonates because the plot, character motivation, and action are all aligned, and it turns out very satisfying.

[Bodanki]

Carol and Maggie were privy to the radio discussions between the Saviors. They know how prepared the Saviors were to retreat, call for help, change frequences when radios were compromised and wait for reinforcement. So they know that there are more Saviors out there and that the Saviors are intelligent, prepared, tactical, organized, etc.

So let's just say that Abe's ass... and the ass of the entire group... should be itching like mad. They should be taking a collective gasp right now and wondering just how deep the shi-ite is that they've dove into head-first without looking.

I understand that the writers are building up a "pride before the fall" theme, and to an extent I can see the rationale behind it, but I consider it pure plot contrivance that the group has gone into this so blindly. It's forgivable because the episodes are pretty good, but the group has enough information now that they cannot justify further blind arrogance.

In spite of these episodes being decent enough, ultimately I'm with Shootme... the season is not great. I'm only partly invested and mostly because of these exact situations. The characters make sketchy, WTF-inducing decisions amidst storylines driven by plot contrivance. It just loses me. I end up watching as a spectator rather than as fully invested.

These last two episodes are prime examples. The plan was awful and ignored both the group's strengths (recon resources Daryl and Aaron) and common sense (assess the situation, gather information, etc). The execution was implausible in that we had multiple cluster-f*&k fire-fights with no friendly casualties. The two people who had the best chance of noticing someone approaching got captured because they were having an ill-timed, implausible argument. And I *still* think they would've noticed the approach.

The episodes weren't *bad*. They were decent and fun to watch. There was good character development and the plot progression was interesting in itself. And the "throw-away" characters were extremely well cast and acted.

But when TWD fires on all cylinders it is far far better. Carol's actions in this episode are a good example. When Carol portrays herself as meek and helpless the viewers see what she's doing and why, and it comes off as a great idea. It might actually be BETTER than what we'd think of on our own, and it's exactly what we expect from her character. It resonates because the plot, character motivation, and action are all aligned, and it turns out very satisfying.

That was my initial reaction when it happened. They should have done recon.
BUT the deal with Gregory was that they killed Negans men THAT night! They had a deadline because they needed to rescue that guy from Hilltop (Craig) before the end of that day or he was gonna be killed.
I guess they threw that into the plot because they wanted Ricks team to storm in blind due to a time constraint, otherwise I am sure they would have done recon.

[Moon Knight]

The plan was rushed because it had to be done as soon as possible. They needed Gregory's head for an easy way in so they could get back Ethan's brother.

I can see people's concern as to the sloppy approach but that's why I love TWD so much. Rick isn't a super hero, niether is Daryl, they are bound to make mistakes. The fact that they aren't perfect and make more bad calls than they should makes them so much more interesting to me; especially Rick. Daryl does need to be toned down a bit though haha. I still find it clever how Carol purposely left those marks so Daryl could track them. But yeah, lots of holes in that plan but I find it acceptable.

[Bodanki]

The question then becomes, if Gregory was towing the line and giving The Saviours their weekly tribute or whatever, why did they want him dead?
Why all of a sudden did Negan decide he had to go?
A little bit confused about that to be honest.

[MinionZombie]

The plan was rushed because it had to be done as soon as possible. They needed Gregory's head for an easy way in so they could get back Ethan's brother.

I can see people's concern as to the sloppy approach but that's why I love TWD so much. Rick isn't a super hero, niether is Daryl, they are bound to make mistakes. The fact that they aren't perfect and make more bad calls than they should makes them so much more interesting to me; especially Rick. Daryl does need to be toned down a bit though haha. I still find it clever how Carol purposely left those marks so Daryl could track them. But yeah, lots of holes in that plan but I find it acceptable.

Agreed. Any of us would make just as many mistakes - or likely more - in a zombie apocalypse. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and being able to pick over a decision in minute detail from the comfort of our forum bears no resemblance to those characters in that situation right at that moment. :D All things considered the decision makes sense in that context - and Team Rick are used to improvising and having to react on the spot to a fubar situation.


The question then becomes, if Gregory was towing the line and giving The Saviours their weekly tribute or whatever, why did they want him dead?
Why all of a sudden did Negan decide he had to go?
A little bit confused about that to be honest.

I guess we'll find out more about that soon. Perhaps to weaken the Hilltoppers even more? Perhaps as part of a wider power play - might the Saviours be interested in just taking over the Hilltop and assuming full power there? We haven't seen the Saviour's main gaff yet, so maybe they're interested in a more plush setting to park their bums?

There might be an issue with their deliveries - have they missed any, have they been 'light' etc? If so, then taking out Gregory would be the Saviour's equivalent of a slap on the wrist for them all to buck up their ideas.

[facestabber]

Agreed. Any of us would make just as many mistakes - or likely more - in a zombie apocalypse. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and being able to pick over a decision in minute detail from the comfort of our forum bears no resemblance to those characters in that situation right at that moment. :D All things considered the decision makes sense in that context - and Team Rick are used to improvising and having to react on the spot to a fubar situation.



I guess we'll find out more about that soon. Perhaps to weaken the Hilltoppers even more? Perhaps as part of a wider power play - might the Saviours be interested in just taking over the Hilltop and assuming full power there? We haven't seen the Saviour's main gaff yet, so maybe they're interested in a more plush setting to park their bums?

There might be an issue with their deliveries - have they missed any, have they been 'light' etc? If so, then taking out Gregory would be the Saviour's equivalent of a slap on the wrist for them all to buck up their ideas.

Lets simplify this and just Gregory's death was ordered because he is an arrogant prick.

[MinionZombie]

Lets simplify this and just Gregory's death was ordered because he is an arrogant prick.

:lol::lol::lol:

Yeah, Gregory's an arse (but well played by Xander Berkeley). Reason enough right there. :elol:

[Moon Knight]

The question then becomes, if Gregory was towing the line and giving The Saviours their weekly tribute or whatever, why did they want him dead?
Why all of a sudden did Negan decide he had to go?
A little bit confused about that to be honest.

That's easy; Ethan says that Negan "claims" the Hilltop's offering was a little light. So why does Negan hold Ethan's brother in exchange for Gregory's head? Well, it all boils down to Negan wanting to give the Hilltop a bit of motivation so the next time the goods ain't as "light" and most importantly, Negan is just a sick f*ck and more of an asshole than Gregory. I assume Negan just enjoys messing with people and gets off on manipulating weak survivors for his enjoyment. He's the ultimate bully.

[facestabber]

That's easy; Ethan says that Negan "claims" the Hilltop's offering was a little light. So why does Negan hold Ethan's brother in exchange for Gregory's head? Well, it all boils down to Negan wanting to give the Hilltop a bit of motivation so the next time the goods ain't as "light" and most importantly, Negan is just a sick f*ck and more of an asshole than Gregory. I assume Negan just enjoys messing with people and gets off on manipulating weak survivors for his enjoyment. He's the ultimate bully.

Isnt Negan a used car salesman? And now has power, a god complex and no law and order. Bully is right

[kidgloves]

With reference to the finale/comic spoilers

As mentioned, it needs to be a season 1 character. I think it's going to be Morgan because we know AMC likes to cut costs and he can't come cheap so he is most likely IMHO. I'll be satisfied if it's Glen, Maggie, Carol or preferably Darryl. Anyone else will be a copout.
Abraham has to go in the coming episodes as well like the comics

[Moon Knight]

With reference to the finale/comic spoilers

As mentioned, it needs to be a season 1 character. I think it's going to be Morgan because we know AMC likes to cut costs and he can't come cheap so he is most likely IMHO. I'll be satisfied if it's Glen, Maggie, Carol or preferably Darryl. Anyone else will be a copout.
Abraham has to go in the coming episodes as well like the comics

Im gonna go ahead and say that I believe Morgan is safe. I'm pretty sure he's leaving the group. If you notice the promotional "A Larger World" poster, all of the imagery was taking from actual episodes themselves; Walker Deanna, Carol's rosery, the Satalites from The Saviors outpost, the holding hands from "No Way Out", however, we have yet to see Morgan on horseback yet and I'm gonna assume he will probably end up in The Kingdom. It's definitely a season 1 cast member. Also, a while back Kirkman always said he regretted killing off Abraham just for shocks. I think it's either gonna be Tara or Heath.