TWD 6x16 "Last Day on Earth" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN*

[MinionZombie]

Please keep all talk of episode 6x16 "Last Day on Earth" specifically inside this thread.

If you have a theory for a following episode, please use the "spoiler tags" (visit the HPOTD FAQ to find out how to use them if you don't already know).

Similarly, if you're going to discuss plot points from the comic book, please use "spoiler tags" - not everyone is up-to-date on them, and some people don't read them at all.

Enjoy!

Directed by: Greg Nicotero
Written by: Scott M. Gimple & Matthew Negrete

Ominous title, much?

An extended episode this week for the season 6 finale, and with Gimple co-writing and Nicotero directing I think we'd better get ourselves prepared.

[Moon Knight]

I thought Robert Kirkman wrote this one?

[MinionZombie]

I thought Robert Kirkman wrote this one?

Hmmm ... that's not the information on the Wiki listing of the season. :confused:

[facestabber]

I cant wait, but worried at same time

[Moon Knight]

Hmmm ... that's not the information on the Wiki listing of the season. :confused:

It has Kirkman listed as writer on IMDb. Not the most credible source I know but they are usually right when it comes to directors and writers for the most part. Plus, Kirkman will be on Talking Dead, but who knows. :confused:

[AcesandEights]

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b205/DougOBrien/tumblr_inline_o45jkcW9D31shhocj_500_zpsw8f2xtzg.gi f

[facestabber]

Fuck that. Tense and great episode but fuck gimple with the ending. Seriously fuck that.

[Moon Knight]

Fuck that shit. Not even worth talking about.

[AcesandEights]

A completely hollow semblance of a finale.

[facestabber]

Fuck that shit. Not even worth talking about.

Worth talking about the backlash that Kirkman and gimple have coming. The fans make the show and we just got shit on. I hope they get a message

[Trin]

I got caught up for that? Whatever...

[AcesandEights]

Well, it'll be interesting to see how MZ reconciles his unremitting, TWD-can-do-no-wrong love for the series and this horrifyingly empty and overwrought episode. :p

At least bitching about such a shit episode may prove some good sport, but I coulda been playing Fallout 4 that whole time.

[ProfessorChaos]

tuned in for the last half an hour just to see if the negan hype would be worth going back and catching up on the last season, lol'd at the cliffhanger ending. typical TWD bullshit.

trevor from gta 5 and the whistling saviors were cool, and negan was menacing, but fuck this show and the dickheads who write it. what a cop-out.

[facestabber]

Whoa I am seeing overwhelming majority of fAns are pissed off on other sights as well. This may be a problem for them. I feel bad for the actors but hope there is repercussions for the powers that be. I am completely let down.

[Moon Knight]

I can't even defend that. I hope it gets leaked. Let the backlash begin, they deserve it.

- - - Updated - - -


Whoa I am seeing overwhelming majority of fAns are pissed off on other sights as well. This may be a problem for them. I feel bad for the actors but hope there is repercussions for the powers that be. I am completely let down.

Nah, I don't feel sorry for them. The way they hyped that episode just makes them all looks like complete liars. Lincoln said it made him sick and Cohan couldn't sleep lol black hole, McBride? Nah, they lost all their credibility with me.

[zomtom]

I don't even feel as though I watched the season finale. I'm at a point where I don't care!! How dare they do this to their fans. I hope this comes back and bites them in their asses. They're getting too big for their britches and I hope the backlash smacks them back to reality.

[slayerized]

I can't even defend that. I hope it gets leaked. Let the backlash begin, they deserve it.

- - - Updated - - -



Nah, I don't feel sorry for them. The way they hyped that episode just makes them all looks like complete liars. Lincoln said it made him sick and Cohan couldn't sleep lol black hole, McBride? Nah, they lost all their credibility with me.

Maybe Andrew Lincoln became "physically sick" after the reading the script because he realized just how shitty it was going to be and how much backlash they would receive...

[Zombie Snack]

That was like having sex but stopping before you get a nut......why? Gimple claiming it wasn't a cliff hanger, it was the end of that story...Bullshit.

[kidgloves]

Lame. Just lame.

Makes no impact whatsoever and their choice tells me all I need to know.

Fear the Walking Dead looks the way forward for me.

Lame

- - - Updated - - -

Watching Talking Dead and they really have NO IDEA nor do they seem to care

[sandrock74]

I'm glad I had friends over and watched WrestleMania last night. I watched TWD on the dvr and was amazed (but not surprised) at all the commercial breaks and just shook my head at the ending. A sudden first person perspective?? I would've been okay with that as long as they showed who it was afterwards.

So much time was wasted in this episode. To end it the way they did was sloppy. I'm seeing nothing but anger from fans online today. This could be something that really comes back to haunt them next season if a lot of fans don't come back.

[Moon Knight]

Cheap gimmicks and lazy writing. That's what the show has come to. Sad.

The greatest moment from the comics ruined. Can't come back from that.

[MinionZombie]

Fuck that shit. Not even worth talking about.


A completely hollow semblance of a finale.


I can't even defend that. I hope it gets leaked. Let the backlash begin, they deserve it.
Nah, they lost all their credibility with me.


I'm seeing nothing but anger from fans online today. This could be something that really comes back to haunt them next season if a lot of fans don't come back.

F**k me. Calm down, folks. :rolleyes:


Well, it'll be interesting to see how MZ reconciles his unremitting, TWD-can-do-no-wrong love for the series and this horrifyingly empty and overwrought episode. :p

:lol:

1) Just because I love the show, and would rather focus on the vast majority of things they get right, rather than piss and moan about the teeny weeny amount of stuff they get wrong (which I still mention - but don't harp on endlessly about), doesn't mean I don't have gripes.

2) Incidentally - F**K THE CLIFFHANGER ENDING. :mad::mad::mad:

They did it once already this season, so doing it for the finale is a wind up. I can understand their reasoning - sort of - but completely disagree with it. On the one positive hand, if they pay off in Season 7 like they did with 6x09 after 6x08's cock tease cliffhanger then we'll have something to look forward to ... ... but six months of waiting? F**K YOU.

I'm really surprised they went that route. Did they do it because fan expectation was so high for a major death in this episode? Well, we're going to find out in 7x01 - so why not just show it to us now in the finale and avoid the inevitable backlash?! And being that it's a backlash on the internet, you know it's not going to be rational. Seems like a really dumb idea, to me - why hack off a bunch of viewers, I mean really? It makes much more sense, to me at least, to live up to expectations and SHOW the kill right before the credits and then in 7x01 relive the moment in a POV shot.

Even the actors don't seem to know who bites it ... which seems a little disrespectful to them, doesn't it? Like "one of you is gonna lose your job, but we won't tell you for several months". How on earth can they keep the victim a secret for all this time? There'll be paparazzi swarming all over the place. Loose lips, etc. They'll have to film a whole bunch of deaths so it could be any of a number, and then secretly place the 'correct' death episode in the transmission machine at the last moment.

*sigh*

That said - I don't get the moaning about the rest of the episode. It was tense as hell, and with Rick & Co constantly finding their routes blocked by The Saviours, the sense of dread just kept ramping up and up and up. That big reveal - with that chilling whistling going on - with (almost) all of The Saviours in the woods in a big circle was scary as hell. The look on Rick's face said it all - talk about a lesson in humility!

I would theorise the following - Rick and everyone to the left of him (Rick's left, Negan's right) is safe. Listen to the line of dialogue - Negan says that if any of them kick off they're to cut out Carl's eye and feed it to Rick, and judging by the angle that Negan is facing, the victim is someone to Rick's right. WHO that someone is I don't know - AND IT'S STILL SIX SODDING MOTHERF**KING-BASTARD-SHITTING-BOLLOCKY-ASSBAG MONTHS BEFORE WE FIND OUT!!! :|

*sigh*

Loved Eugene stepping up to the plate. That whole scene was really bleak, but heroic for Eugene. They did a great job of setting up that almost anyone could die at any moment - I was on-edge for 'out of the blue bullets' the entire episode.

Slightly different to how I figured, but I was in the ballpark regarding Morgan and these horse riding chaps in the body armour. It'll be interesting to see where Morgan and Carol go from here, particularly as they've no idea about what's going on with Team Rick. Fascinating stuff with Carol - she wanted to die, so badly. She was ready to go. Deep stuff.

Best part of the episode? NEGAN, no doubt. Jeffrey Dean Morgan did a fantastic job of inhabiting that character - a serious well done to him, because blimey, that's a challenge to pull that character off, and he managed it beautifully. I dug what the direction was - Negan is the star of his own movie - which suits his character down to the ground. JDM owned that character - charismatic, yet heinously evil - and really stole the moment. Talk about making an impact on the show. I had a good feeling he'd be great in the role - but didn't quite know he'd rock it this well, so congrats to him for absolutely nailing Negan.

Iffy part of the episode - so many of the core group leaving Alexandria. Them loading up the RV with a bunch of "you can't talk me out of coming" additions felt a bit silly. Good that Alexandria has a plan and the people are trained, but it was still something that irked me quite a bit. Those left behind just don't have the same level of combat experience. It does give us a grand spectacle with (almost) all the key players in that showdown ... but still ... I hope Team Rick don't scatter their people beyond the walls all at once again!

Ooh - Steven Ogg (aka Trevor from GTA V) - now that's a cool addition to the cast! I hope he sticks around for a good while as I really enjoyed his character. Talk about menacing!

Oh - Morgan shooting that dude. GOOD! He'd been struggling to make that method of his work, but the world kept pushing back, and finally he was faced with a situation where there was no other option. It'll be interesting to see where he goes from here. Will it make him crack again? Will he realign to a more pragmatic position? I guess we'll find out come October.

So, yeah, properly f**ked off about the cliffhanger, cringed at all the big guns leaving Alexandria ... but apart from those things (one of them considerable in size) I enjoyed the episode quite a lot. The sense of dread was pervasive and constant, Negan rocked, the bleakness was impressive ... if only they'd not done that stupid sodding cliffhanger!!!

That said - anyone out there in Interwebtubezland who seriously gives up on the show just because of a cliffhanger is an idiot, pissed off in the moment and just lashing out. I don't believe Gimple & Co's intentions were to say F.U. to the fans, I just don't believe that at all, but I do believe they didn't think this through properly and ultimately did not make the right call. Everyone expected a death - everyone expected to SEE THE BLOODY THING HAPPEN - and they chose not to. I think that was a bad idea that has created needless frothing at the Internet mouth.

Further to that and spreaking in general, if you don't like the show - why are you watching it? If you do like the show, grow up, you're not going to stop watching it just because of a cliffhanger (regardless of how ill-advised it was). Gain some perspective: the world continues to turn (where infinitely worse things happen on a minute-by-minute basis), it's only a TV show, and you're going to keep watching because it's the best thing in zombies since Day of the Dead. Yes, the cliffhanger pisses me off something rotten, too, but to trash the entire episode because of it is over-reacting in the extreme.

I reckon that's fair enough. ;)

...

TWD 6x16 Memes:
http://deadshed.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/cut-to-black-edition-walking-dead-6x16.html



https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-gjGdaaG946A/VwKQhtj3IZI/AAAAAAAAEtM/yaVj0SsI67oc2dNyq6W5JaShe2iz5rbMw/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_6_Meme_Rick_Maggie_Noah_Te mpt_Fate_6x16_DeadShed.jpg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-WKdq_ogVLps/VwKQkyfLSVI/AAAAAAAAEtU/tYm-lI8DLwEuUqkUQV4TtKzHcyIntNemA/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_6_Meme_Negan_Governor_How_ Evil_POV_Cut_Black_Cliffhanger_6x16_DeadShed.jpg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TfcJQDKqUpU/VwKQljbhtvI/AAAAAAAAEtY/XkKAgDn6CTgXPzkk_UPd1jqcE7NsNd6DQ/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_6_Meme_That_Walking_Dead_F eeling_Rick_Negan_Lucille_Knees_6x16_DeadShed.jpg

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-k-arZV74nOY/VwKQjXMSJdI/AAAAAAAAEtQ/IJ2ZL6BQzhUboRc5hPLaKr6H60QO-KPDQ/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_6_Meme_Negan_Eenie_Meenie_ Abraham_Bitch_Nuts_6x16_DeadShed.jpg



:)

[kidgloves]

Stupid thing is who gets killed is guaranteed to leak before season 7 starts. Guaranteed so the cliffhanger is totally pointless.
Gimple deserves the bat himself.

[facestabber]

In my mind I thought if Minion comes in mad the show is in trouble. Hahaha. Hey look I'm as big a fan as they come. This is the only show I watch or care about. People are pissed off including yourself minion but it's not because we hate the show. It's because we love the show and characters so damn much. I was ready to mourn someone and that was stolen from us all.

The episode up until that point was downright tense in most spots. The all star line up of the A team filling the RV was gag worthy. And I'm kind of tired of Carol whining so much. Kudos to Morgan though. He's coming around and if he goes "clear" Negan better watch out.

Also the Saviors became super boogeyman in one episode. Easily dispatched all season and now they have Michael Myers instincts and coordination that would make Navy SEALS proud(or SAS to you boys across the pond).

Now all my gripes are minor for this episode and would have been easily overlooked if the ending gave us fans what we deserved. But the fans are speaking loud and clear that gimple and Kirkman fucked this up. We don't need this mystery to tune in for season 7. Mourning for 6 months of a beloved character gone and how our group will come back from this would have brought me back. Hell Lincoln's performance from ultimate badass to terrified was phenomenal. He knew he was fucked and when that Ogg guy said were done talking and time for you to listen...I mean damn that was a violent slap in the face that team Rick fucked with the wrong people.

But in the end I'm just pissed the fuck off at the show. BS move.

[kidgloves]

Just for the record, I LOVED JDM as Negan. I hope there's an uncensored version of the scene although it was quite long

[MinionZombie]

Hopefully Gimple & Co really learn from this particular mistake. The reasoning just isn't sound enough - they need to improve their skills at anticipating audience expectations. They do a good job in regards to what viewers who have read the comics are expecting, but this cliffhanger illustrates clearly that they need to improve on their anticipation of general audience expectations. To be fair to them they have these episodes locked several months in advance of them airing, so there's no way to react to immediate fan response - but they really should have seen this amount of fan aggro coming a mile off. They would have been wise to sidestep it - like facestabber is alluding to, we don't need a season finale cliffhanger like this to keep us coming back, just continue being a great show and leave us yearning to see what happens next, rather than who dies and what happens next.

I'd be stunned if it doesn't leak somehow online as to who dies before the season 7 premiere date.

Gimple's got so many things right with the show during his tenure. This cliffhanger palava is a rare slip up. Hopefully they'll deliver like nobody's business in season 7 to make up for this unusual error in judgement. Having an end of episode shock - such as Daryl getting shot last week - is fine as long as the longest you have to wait is a week, and you don't overuse it. There's a fine line to tread between giving audiences something to get them stoked for the next episode, and just teasing to an unnecessary degree. Cliffhangers are a dangerous game. Really, "now what do they do?!" would have been cliffhanger enough. To be fair, this isn't the first time a show has done this sort of thing - and heck, just look at the flak that the series finale of The Sopranos got - but yeah ... a decided miscalculation on the show maker's part.

Please learn from this, TWD folks. Sincerely, a loving fan.


Just for the record, I LOVED JDM as Negan. I hope there's an uncensored version of the scene although it was quite long.

Damn straight. I cannot wait to see JDM in season 7 fully unleashing Negan upon us ... ... that sounded kinda sordid ... ... anyway, yeah, I'd love to see some additional material. And you know what - totally didn't miss his constant use of the F-word. JDM personified evil in the form of Negan so well that a childish amount of excessive swearing was completely not needed, so they handled that well.

[facestabber]

I wonder if the decision is final regarding who died? It appears the actors don't know. Is this a game by RK SG to see viewer response and decide later or do you guys think their mind was made up. Filming starts soon so they cant really keep the actor in the dark. Im sure they probably know but this was a way to say FU to the spoiler crowd.

[kidgloves]

This episode also stinks of studio interference.
It's totally designed to get a reaction from the fan base and isn't what a good storyteller would do. We know Gimple and Kirkman tell great stories on a good day so I don't blame them entirely

[Moon Knight]

MZ is the voice of reason and the morale compass of our group.

I still think the show officially sold out. Definitely not excited for season 7; especially knowing how frustrating it's gonna be knowing we can expect more shenanigans like they pulled in season 6.

Glenn's fake out, Daryl's cliffhanger, the annoyance in how the mid season finale ended, all the CGI blood splatter on screen, the obnoxious "Into the Badlands" force feeding they did, and the Negan cliffhanger is the icing on the cake. I can see why so many people got turned off from this show. I'm still a supporter but highly frustrated as a loyal fan.

[JDP]

Besides the silly "cliffhanger" finale (as if this was really needed to tune in for next season :rolleyes:), it is also a bit annoying how sloppy the group has proceeded all through the last 2 episodes, even when they have been well aware that these "Saviors" are indeed still out there and might come back for revenge. Yet being fully cognizant of this fact, they still do such dumb things as carelessly walk around talking aloud. It's as if they are begging for the enemy to know where they are!

Does anyone remember if they still had any RPGs left? If I remember correctly, Abraham found 1 loaded launcher and 3 RPGs inside a case, and they only used two: one to wipe out the group of Savior bikers blocking the road to Alexandria and the other one to ignite the gasoline floating on the lake. So they should still have a couple left. In order to get past the Savior groups blocking any of the roads to the Hilltop all they had to do is bring these remaining RPGs and blast them, just like Daryl did before. It does not take a rocket scientist (no pun intended) to see how some of the group members could easily have distracted them while another one sneaks closer to the roadblock through the woods on the side of the road and slams them with the RPGs. "Roadblock" removed!

[DayoftheZ]

Erm just watched it.

Great episode and I liked the ending, its an other one of those that will be even better when watched in a marathon but I thought it was a cool way to end it.

Next up FTWD. Cant wait.

[Neil]

Enjoyed some aspects of the episode, but the psychic, over theatrical Saviors just ruined it for me...

Somehow:-
1) Knowing the scooby gangs every turn/move, even when on foot...
2) Surely the scooby gang realised given the impressive numbers of the Saviours, that their destination was therefore a waste? If they could afford that many men, and block a road with a mountain of trees, they could easily take over the town (Hilltop)!
3) Why risk the scooby gang getting away over and over, and not just take them hostage at the first road block with a hundred men popping out of the tree line?

Silly!

Anyway, otherwise a good season :)


And if the person who has died is...Abraham, I'll be even more pissed at the writers! They seem to have broadcast it with their character build up of him!


ps: I love Morgan's ninja quiet horse arriving at that scene when he turned up to save Carol... Why not leave the horse around the corner?

[MinionZombie]

Something else I wanted to point out - kudos to the cast in that final scene - they all brought their A-game. They looked absolutely sodding terrified/humiliated. :stunned:


MZ is the voice of reason and the morale compass of our group.

I don't wanna be a moral compass - Dale and Hershel didn't fare too well!!! :eek: :lol: :p On the other hand, Glenn has Maggie... :o:kiss::o


I still think the show officially sold out. Definitely not excited for season 7; especially knowing how frustrating it's gonna be knowing we can expect more shenanigans like they pulled in season 6.

Glenn's fake out, Daryl's cliffhanger, the annoyance in how the mid season finale ended, all the CGI blood splatter on screen, the obnoxious "Into the Badlands" force feeding they did, and the Negan cliffhanger is the icing on the cake. I can see why so many people got turned off from this show. I'm still a supporter but highly frustrated as a loyal fan.

CGI blood splatter? I've not really noticed much - in fact, I was surprised at the lack of blood spraying out of that Saviour who was shot six times by Morgan. I didn't even notice he'd been hit until the shot to the neck and then head - the others were so subtle with hardly any blood spewing out. I was really surprised by that! Did they run out of time? Did they run out of squibs on set? :confused::rockbrow:

The "Into the Badlands" thing - I'd blame that entirely on AMC - nout to do with the TWD folks, but yes, AMC were highly obnoxious with that stunt (and their splitting up of FTWD: Flight 462 into sub-one-minute scraps tossed into TWD advert breaks was just the most idiotic idea - incidentally the whole thing is now online and runs about 15 minutes. It's alright, nothing special.)

The 'Dumpster Glenn' thing ... yes, it did rob us of the impact of that third episode (a true HOLY SHIT! moment), but then again I rather enjoyed seeing him get out of the scrape. They do need to shit or get off the pot regarding Glenn though. Either kill him or stop almost-killing-him. You've had your fun with that, let's move on, shall we?

Daryl's cliffhanger - that was okay by me, we only had to wait a week - although his fate, like everyone else's, ties into that feckin' cliffhanger!!! :mad:

Mid-season finale - yeah, it was a big old todger tease, but at least it was mid-season, and paid off 10 weeks later with an awesome episode. It made the most sense in terms of pacing and storytelling. Now ... the season finale cliffhanger? That makes no real sense storytelling wise IMHO. They've got a cogent enough argument, but I struggle to see how showing us who dies in 6x16 would affect any scrap of the story to be told in season 7.

Perhaps the backlash to this bad choice is Gimple's Rick-style lesson in humility? :p


Enjoyed some aspects of the episode, but the psychic, over theatrical Saviors just ruined it for me...

Somehow:-
1) Knowing the scooby gangs every turn/move, even when on foot...
2) Surely the scooby gang realised given the impressive numbers of the Saviours, that their destination was therefore a waste? If they could afford that many men, and block a road with a mountain of trees, they could easily take over the town (Hilltop)!
3) Why risk the scooby gang getting away over and over, and not just take them hostage at the first road block with a hundred men popping out of the tree line?

Anyway, otherwise a good season :)

ps: I love Morgan's ninja quiet horse arriving at that scene when he turned up to save Carol... Why not leave the horse around the corner?

1) Well they know they're going to the Hilltop - where else would they be going in that neck of the woods - and there's only so many roads they can take. Clearly they had one blocked off long in advance - and I'd wager that The Saviours have pulled these sort of games with other groups somewhere out there. As for on-foot - I'd imagine they had people tracking them in the woods, and would have likely had walkie talkies to send messages to other people lying in wait down a particular route.

2) I don't quite understand your point here, but they desperately need to get to the Hilltop because of Maggie. They don't have a Doctor at Alexandria any more, and the Hilltop has someone who specialises in pregnancies. Without his help, Maggie will die. They absolutely must get to the Hilltop.

Also, like Negan said, it's not about taking over a place - it's about bringing them to heel and making them work for you. The threat of being taken over easily would be something to help keep them in-line.

3) The whole thing is a cat and mouse game. Rick & Co are the mouse. Notice how Rick et al are defiant at the beginning, but as every turn is cut off they lose more and more will to fight - they become more desperate - like an animal cornered. The whole ordeal is about humiliation, it's about The Saviours showing off their numbers and their capability. It's a show of force on Negan's part. They also herd them to a particular location and gather their forces en mass as the ultimate "bow to us" moment. As Negan said, it was quite an achievement - even a risk - for The Saviours to gather together as a group like that. I get the impression that these people are usually dotted around all over the place at various encampments as well as their main lair, so right now I'd imagine those outposts are either un-manned or just have one or two folks holding down the fort. There'll be people back at the main Saviour camp who aren't capable of fighting, too, I'd reckon - so this was Negan gathering all of his troops for one big show. They've never before faced this kind of resistance from anyone - and Team Rick have slaughtered a whole bunch of them - so they have to make a big show to humiliate a group who are hard to bring to heel.

4) Yes. Negan's ninja horse did piss me off - there was no real need for it. Just keep it out of shot. That sort of thing does irk me. Morgan saying "I found your horse" would still work just as well without it having arrived by silent teleport. :rockbrow:

5) Yes, couple of mis-steps aside (and that bloody cliffhanger!) - it was a good season. The scale alone (e.g. 6x01, 6x09) was stunning.

[shootemindehead]

Not a bad episode for the most part. Enjoyed Trevor and the lad that plays Negan and yes the main cast (Andrew Lincoln especially) looked utterly ruined. Very difficult to pull that kind of acting out of the bag.

BUT, that fu*king ending was a load of old pony. Dicking the audience around like that, doubley so after that Miracle of Glenn bullshit, is taking the piss.

I saw last night the some areas of the interwebzone are in complete meltdown, with people saying they're done with the show. I can sort of understand them, TBH.

Over all, a pretty meh series for me this year. The writing (which has always had very dodgy moments) needs to be upped considerably.

Plus, the buggering around with Carol's storyline was atrocious. The took one of the best characters in the show and turned her about face into a mewlng wretch, simply becasue of "plotting". Her freak out rings completely hollow and smacks of the writers running out of ideas for her character to have something to do. Likewise with the blahdy blah nonsense with Abe and Tasha. Eye rolling toss going on there.

As for who got Lucille'd, I'd say it's possibly the fat lad with the mullet. That strange interaction with him and Rick regarding the "bullet recipe" was an odd insertion. IIRC, that was a big deal in the comics, as it essentially gave Alexandria a bullet tree, so they'd have a chance against the Saviours. It seems to me that once that was out of the way, Eugene is largely redundant at this stage. Plus the "taking it like a champ" comment ties in with his new found "courage".

Bottom line is, though, is that the producers haven't decided themselves yet.

[facestabber]

^ fat lad with the mullet. Lol. I hope Eugene isn't dead. Guy has just started getting a good story. Same with Abe minus the love crap. I'd like to see Abe kick some savior ass along side Rick. If I had to pick which one I preferred to die its Aaron and Sasha but that isn't a big enough impact. I prefer it be Glenn. Season 1 &2 Glenn were my favorite. I still like Glenn but I could handle his end. Then as much as I'd hate to say it, Daryl. Love Reedus but that's a monster impact and would allow other characters to grow.

[DayoftheZ]

I’d like to repeat that I loved the episode. The whole whistling and intimidation of Team Rick was tense as hell and really enjoyable to see unfold. I kind of wish Carol had been killed as that would have been a conclusive shock and we still have had too few losses to the long term players in Team Rick since the governor days.

With regards to who it is I have a theory….

that it has to be Abraham.
I don’t believe for one minute that Negan is the sort of character to beat a female character to death in cold blood. It wouldn’t do anything to intimidate Team Rick, and it appears from the whistling, roadblocks etc that the saviours are all about intimidation. So this excludes Maggie, Sasha, Rosita and Michonne.

If we take the view we were shown of Negan being from the actual eyes of the victim, there was no hair hanging down obscuring the view so this should rule out Rick, Glenn and Daryl. Carl only has one eye so the view would be different also, and Eugene had an eye closed. I realise this one could be oversight by the writers or omission of hair so as not to give a clue.
To further strengthen this I don’t think Negan would kill Carl, Eugene or Daryl because they are already weakened by injury so the impact would be lessened.

That leaves Abe and Aaron. The fact Negan said “Taking it like a champ” makes me think its Abe because the defiant look Abe gave him made him look like the strong link in a clearly scared Team Rick.

If its Rosita, Sasha, Eugene or Aaron that gets taken down I will be underwhelmed, because at the moment they are still red shirts. Daryl, Abe, Michonne or Glenn would be my preference.

[Neil]

2) I don't quite understand your point here, but they desperately need to get to the Hilltop because of Maggie. They don't have a Doctor at Alexandria any more, and the Hilltop has someone who specialises in pregnancies. Without his help, Maggie will die. They absolutely must get to the Hilltop.

If the Savours have so many men and resources and are as organised as they soon appeared to be - and clearly knew where the scooby gang were trying to get to - what was the point in trying to get there, given there was probably a hundred men at Hilltop waiting for them!? Seemed an illogical risk/move!?

[shootemindehead]

Because script.

I think it would have been better to simply follow the comic story closer. Have Negan and gang turn up at Alexandria and beat the turf out of Glenn, or whoever.

[sandrock74]

Personally, if I were Rick, I'd have plowed thru the first "roadblock", as it was just a handful of guys. But, in the interests of keeping the (relative) peace, I'd have simply ordered the gang back to Alexandria. It was apparent from early on it was a game of cat and mouse, so I would have taken myself out of the equation. Go back to my fortified home, hunker down and wait. Granted, Maggie would have most likely been lost, but the needs of the many...

Besides, waiting at home throws the Saviors off their game and puts the ball back in their court. Make them come to you. Negan already tipped his hand about not wanting them dead; he wants them to work for him. Make him rethink his strategy.

Every new road they tried to take to the Hilltop made me keep shaking my head. They willingly strolled right into Negan's game.

[Moon Knight]

MZ- The cgi blood splatter I was referring to was done four times in the back half. When Rosita shot down a Savior in the head during the compound raid; his brains hit the screen. When Maggie crushed Moll's head during their escape; blood hit the screen for a second time. When Dwight shot Daryl you would have thought his brains were blown out with the amount of blood that hit the screen for a third time. Finally, when Negan kills someone with Lucille; blood trickles down the screen in a cartoonish way. One time- I can deal with but four times during the last five episodes is a bit too much and feels really gimmicky.

Also, with all that blood splattered you would have thought Daryl would have been in pretty rough shape, he looked fine to me. That cliffhanger didn't play into anything and was unnecessary.

In fairness, the episode was great until the very end. It definitely sucked the air out of the room of my viewing party.

As far as Negan killing women-

Im pretty sure he killed Holly in the comics, a death I'm sure will now go to Tara.

[MinionZombie]

I saw last night the some areas of the interwebzone are in complete meltdown, with people saying they're done with the show. I can sort of understand them, TBH.

Plus, the buggering around with Carol's storyline was atrocious. The took one of the best characters in the show and turned her about face into a mewlng wretch, simply becasue of "plotting". Her freak out rings completely hollow and smacks of the writers running out of ideas for her character to have something to do.

1) People that say they're done with the show were either never really into the show in the first place, or are tossing their toys out of their pram. The same wailing happened after Sansa's wedding night on Game of Thrones. A lot of flapped gums, and then cooler heads prevail. The Internet is always full of immediate rage and not enough reflection.

2) Hollow? I think it's working well. She's come full circle in some ways, and it's all about the cost to her soul. These things she has done - killing Karen and David was the first major step, and the really huge step was having to put down Lizzy. She had to execute a child whom she had grown to love and was almost at the point of essentially calling her her own - and she had to execute her ... that's some pretty messed up stuff right there. She's had to kill a lot of people, many deserved it, others not so much. It's a heavy burden to carry. Out in the wilderness it was just survival mode, but now in Alexandria where people are living (relatively) normal lives, the contrast has never been more stark to her. The interaction with Morgan - who had chosen the complete opposite path to her - threw even more light onto her actions. Frankly, just having her be a badass with no after effects would be boring and cartoonish.


I’d like to repeat that I loved the episode. The whole whistling and intimidation of Team Rick was tense as hell and really enjoyable to see unfold. I kind of wish Carol had been killed as that would have been a conclusive shock and we still have had too few losses to the long term players in Team Rick since the governor days.

With regards to who it is I have a theory….

that it has to be Abraham.
I don’t believe for one minute that Negan is the sort of character to beat a female character to death in cold blood. It wouldn’t do anything to intimidate Team Rick, and it appears from the whistling, roadblocks etc that the saviours are all about intimidation. So this excludes Maggie, Sasha, Rosita and Michonne.

If we take the view we were shown of Negan being from the actual eyes of the victim, there was no hair hanging down obscuring the view so this should rule out Rick, Glenn and Daryl. Carl only has one eye so the view would be different also, and Eugene had an eye closed. I realise this one could be oversight by the writers or omission of hair so as not to give a clue.
To further strengthen this I don’t think Negan would kill Carl, Eugene or Daryl because they are already weakened by injury so the impact would be lessened.

That leaves Abe and Aaron. The fact Negan said “Taking it like a champ” makes me think its Abe because the defiant look Abe gave him made him look like the strong link in a clearly scared Team Rick.

If its Rosita, Sasha, Eugene or Aaron that gets taken down I will be underwhelmed, because at the moment they are still red shirts. Daryl, Abe, Michonne or Glenn would be my preference.


I agree. The whistling/intimidation stuff was chilling!

Also agreed with your spoiler tagged theory.

I, too, question whether Negan would kill one of the women in the group, and I'd also question whether he'd kill someone who was already injured. Abraham was the only one who really squared up to him - gave him a real mean look - everyone else's heads were bowed, Abraham squared up and stared right at him. That marks him as a target for Lucille, unfortunately.

While I don't want to see anyone go, I would be fine with Glenn going as that's what happened in the comics and I've been ready for it. I wonder if Negan might not kill Glenn though. When he had Glenn put back in-line after he threatened Maggie, it seemed as if Negan had crossed off Glenn in his mind as someone to kill ... ... might he kill Maggie? Her condition, presuming he won't kill someone in bad shape, would say no to this.

Yeah ... from what we've got to go on, it seems most likely to be Abraham - or perhaps Daryl - but Daryl's wounded condition would excuse him, if that theory holds true.


If the Savours have so many men and resources and are as organised as they soon appeared to be - and clearly knew where the scooby gang were trying to get to - what was the point in trying to get there, given there was probably a hundred men at Hilltop waiting for them!? Seemed an illogical risk/move!?

I don't think the Saviours were ever going to go to the Hilltop. They were just blocking the way and herding them where they wanted them ... although that where was likely partly improvised. I don't think they had a specific area planned out, they just found an appropriate area depending on which routes Team Rick took in which order. Like I say, they absolutely had to get to the Hilltop because of Maggie's condition.


I think it would have been better to simply follow the comic story closer. Have Negan and gang turn up at Alexandria and beat the turf out of Glenn, or whoever.

Erm, are you sure that's how it went? I've not checked myself, but I remember it going a bit different to you:
Glenn and Maggie had decided to leave Alexandria and set up shop at the Hilltop with their impending child. They were planning to go on a later convoy to the Hilltop, but at the last minute decided to go sooner - it was on the road that Negan stopped them, and then killed Glenn.


MZ- The cgi blood splatter I was referring to was done four times in the back half. When Rosita shot down a Savior in the head during the compound raid; his brains hit the screen. When Maggie crushed Moll's head during their escape; blood hit the screen for a second time. When Dwight shot Daryl you would have thought his brains were blown out with the amount of blood that hit the screen for a third time. Finally, when Negan kills someone with Lucille; blood trickles down the screen in a cartoonish way. One time- I can deal with but four times during the last five episodes is a bit too much and feels really gimmicky.

Also, with all that blood splattered you would have thought Daryl would have been in pretty rough shape, he looked fine to me. That cliffhanger didn't play into anything and was unnecessary.

Hmm, I see what you mean. I didn't mind it myself, though, but yes - restraint on the gimmick would be advisable.

Daryl looked pretty rough to me - pale and sweaty and weak. Maggie looked in worse condition, mind.

[UndeadHippo]

Explanation to the cliffhanger:

obviously they wanted to keep the victim secret. as was mentioned previously, with the amount of press attention the show gets, the only other way to do this would be shoot multiple deaths and insert the real one at the last minute...

except, each "death" would require a ton of effects work, cast head moulds practical puppets, resetting between takes would take an age etc. this would all be expensive and time consuming, and then mostly be discarded and pointless, all to conceal a 15 second or so sequence. it would have been a monumental waste of time and effort.

with that in mind i think this was the only way to maintain the mystery.

my theory as to who it was:

Carl - obviously not. else the line about his eye is meaningless
Rick - Definitely not
Maggie/Daryl - no, already injured, not a demonstration of strength
Sasha/Michonne - Women. spared for the same reason
Glenn/Eugene - Likely, but probably not Glenn has become a bit of a non-entity since his "death" earlier in the season and Eugene still has a story to tell
The other guy whose name i can't remember, Aaron?- what would be the point? he's mostly background scenery and little more than a redshirt

Abraham - My bet's are on Abe. he's had a big build up the past few weeks, been a great character, then this week has his "hopeful looking forward to the future" moment (which is always fatal on TWD) with Sasha, and a "final farewell" to the other character he's had most interaction with: Eugene. His manner was defiant and oozed confidence (which would make for a good demonstration) as well as being an obvious "alpha male" figure within the group. to me, at least, it's pretty cut and dried. which is a shame. i like Abe, and i hope Cudlitz gets the recognition he deserves.

[JonOfTheShred]

They better not have spared Abraham the crossbow death just to kill him with Lucille. I feel like they telegraphed Abe to ensure people are actually shocked when they stay true to the comics and merk the pizza delivery boy.

The POV shown throughout the episode also points towards one of the 4 hostages - Glenn, Daryl, Rosita, or Michonne. I wouldn't have minded if they went with Daryl, but if they were gonna do that it 100% should have been shown last night. The buzz created with all the speculation leading up to Season 7 will be consistent, no doubt, but if Daryl had had his brains bashed in to end the season it would have caused an uproar. People that say they'd riot if Daryl died would be burning down hospitals if he was revealed dead at the start of the next season, way too anti-climatic for his character. Michonne would be another choice, but I think that's a waste - she has more story to go. And Rick losing another lover would be kind of shallow so soon after whatsherface. As for Rosita, she just doesn't have enough weight as a character to provide even a fraction of the necessary shock and trauma required for Lucille's first victim. And Negan would be a fool to mess up her pretty face, Rosita is gorgeous. Glenn is the best choice. It would have the most weight.

As long as they don't choose Daryl, I can live with the cliffhanger. If they do go with Daryl, it was a severe miscalculation not SHOWING IT THEN because that would have more buzz than it being an anti-climatic cliffhanger reveal. That's their biggest character right there.

[facestabber]

They better not have spared Abraham the crossbow death just to kill him with Lucille. I feel like they telegraphed Abe to ensure people are actually shocked when they stay true to the comics and merk the pizza delivery boy.

The POV shown throughout the episode also points towards one of the 4 hostages - Glenn, Daryl, Rosita, or Michonne. I wouldn't have minded if they went with Daryl, but if they were gonna do that it 100% should have been shown last night. The buzz created with all the speculation leading up to Season 7 will be consistent, no doubt, but if Daryl had had his brains bashed in to end the season it would have caused an uproar. People that say they'd riot if Daryl died would be burning down hospitals if he was revealed dead at the start of the next season, way too anti-climatic for his character. Michonne would be another choice, but I think that's a waste - she has more story to go. And Rick losing another lover would be kind of shallow so soon after whatsherface. As for Rosita, she just doesn't have enough weight as a character to provide even a fraction of the necessary shock and trauma required for Lucille's first victim. And Negan would be a fool to mess up her pretty face, Rosita is gorgeous. Glenn is the best choice. It would have the most weight.

As long as they don't choose Daryl, I can live with the cliffhanger. If they do go with Daryl, it was a severe miscalculation not SHOWING IT THEN because that would have more buzz than it being an anti-climatic cliffhanger reveal. That's their biggest character right there.

Im gonna play devils advocate here regarding Daryl. AMC are aware of his star power and I have been told first hand by woman I know will quit watching if he dies. Like you said, the impact would be less if they revealed daryls death in 07-01. If they showed it last night fans may very well just quit the show and not come back. So by waiting and then delivering a chilling reveal in 07-01 and a great episode they may stick around. Also I'm not convinced the con jobs at AMC are completely concrete who it will be. What if they are waiting to see Norman's draw and ratings for his own show. If that show works on its own maybe they will choose his death via Lucille. I agree Daryls death would be less impactful but that may be the reason they choose him. Plus they shed the label of fearing to kill big names by offing the biggest character

That being said I think its Abe or Glenn followed by Daryl.

Admittedly I'm not as mad as yesterday but I still think they dropped the ball with that ending.

[Moon Knight]

I went ahead and researched a bit more of that scene. I was wrong about Daryl, he did look hurt and out of it. I stand corrected.

I think some of you might be forgetting that Negan played it by chance; his victim was chosen at random, so it didn't really matter if the person was injured or not. At least that how I always imagined it when I read the book.

The episode started with someone's POV and it also ended with that same POV. It wasn't a coincidence that the finale was bookended that way. So, yeah, that leaves Daryl, Michonne, Glenn, and Rosita. If you also read Negan's body language as he's stating "...feed the other eye to his father.", all signs point he's speaking to his right; so his victim is on the left side.

The clues are all there.

[facestabber]

Explanation to the cliffhanger:

obviously they wanted to keep the victim secret. as was mentioned previously, with the amount of press attention the show gets, the only other way to do this would be shoot multiple deaths and insert the real one at the last minute...

except, each "death" would require a ton of effects work, cast head moulds practical puppets, resetting between takes would take an age etc. this would all be expensive and time consuming, and then mostly be discarded and pointless, all to conceal a 15 second or so sequence. it would have been a monumental waste of time and effort.

with that in mind i think this was the only way to maintain the mystery.

my theory as to who it was:

Carl - obviously not. else the line about his eye is meaningless
Rick - Definitely not
Maggie/Daryl - no, already injured, not a demonstration of strength
Sasha/Michonne - Women. spared for the same reason
Glenn/Eugene - Likely, but probably not Glenn has become a bit of a non-entity since his "death" earlier in the season and Eugene still has a story to tell
The other guy whose name i can't remember, Aaron?- what would be the point? he's mostly background scenery and little more than a redshirt

Abraham - My bet's are on Abe. he's had a big build up the past few weeks, been a great character, then this week has his "hopeful looking forward to the future" moment (which is always fatal on TWD) with Sasha, and a "final farewell" to the other character he's had most interaction with: Eugene. His manner was defiant and oozed confidence (which would make for a good demonstration) as well as being an obvious "alpha male" figure within the group. to me, at least, it's pretty cut and dried. which is a shame. i like Abe, and i hope Cudlitz gets the recognition he deserves.


My guess is they haven't filmed any deaths or try and reinact scene. Maybe a pan out shot like horse shot of episode 1. Or Maybe Negan adding a death pic of character to a board of many others. I like Abe too. I want more of his story.

- - - Updated - - -


I went ahead and researched a bit more of that scene. I was wrong about Daryl, he did look hurt and out of it. I stand corrected.

I think some of you might be forgetting that Negan played it by chance; his victim was chosen at random, so it didn't really matter if the person was injured or not. At least that how I always imagined it when I read the book.

The episode started with someone's POV and it also ended with that same POV. It wasn't a coincidence that the finale was bookended that way. So, yeah, that leaves Daryl, Michonne, Glenn, and Rosita. If you also read Negan's body language as he's stating "...feed the other eye to his father.", all signs point he's speaking to his right; so his victim is on the left side.

The clues are all there.

Maggie and Abe are over there too. And I agree that Daryl doesn't look good. Hes losing blood and I believe it was his POV in van fading in and out. Hmmm did victim fade in and out? wonder if that's a clue.

[Moon Knight]

I watched the scene again and it does appear that Negan does in fact kill someone on his own accord and not leaving it to chance. I was going by comic memory and was so upset at the finale's ending that most of those details didn't stick. I don't think it was Maggie, Abraham, Michonne, or Rosita. It's either Glenn or Daryl, imo.

[UndeadHippo]

just rewatched it, paying particular attention to the position of the characters within the scene and what they would see from their own point of view. during Lucille's meal, the only thing visible behind Negan is trees. the character cannot see the RV (which rules out a whole lot of people) or the rest of the group (which rules out Glenn as from his position on the extreme left, he would be able to see the rest of the line.) this would place Negan on the extreme left near Eugene, Carl and Aaron....

assuming it's not just a cock up with the filming of the POV scene of course.

Edit: the main light source is car headlights from that side however, and Negan appears to be lit from behind, which would place him at the other, opposite end....basically, the closer the character is to Rick (the center) in the lineup, the safer they appear to be....

[JDP]

Enjoyed some aspects of the episode, but the psychic, over theatrical Saviors just ruined it for me...

Somehow:-
1) Knowing the scooby gangs every turn/move, even when on foot...
2) Surely the scooby gang realised given the impressive numbers of the Saviours, that their destination was therefore a waste? If they could afford that many men, and block a road with a mountain of trees, they could easily take over the town (Hilltop)!
3) Why risk the scooby gang getting away over and over, and not just take them hostage at the first road block with a hundred men popping out of the tree line?

Silly!

Rick even realizes that they are being led into a trap, yet they still go for it! I guess the only "explanation" one can give for such a potentially suicidal decision is that since Maggie needs a doctor they have no other choice but to take a chance, even if the Hilltop was in fact very likely taken over by the Saviors. But then again they still could more easily have just removed any one of the roadblocks by using the couple of RPGs they must still have in their arsenal and just go straight to the point instead of wasting time playing the cat & mouse game of bouncing from one roadblock to the next.

[facestabber]

Rick even realizes that they are being led into a trap, yet they still go for it! I guess the only "explanation" one can give for such a potentially suicidal decision is that since Maggie needs a doctor they have no other choice but to take a chance, even if the Hilltop was in fact very likely taken over by the Saviors. But then again they still could more easily have just removed any one of the roadblocks by using the couple of RPGs they must still have in their arsenal and just go straight to the point instead of wasting time playing the cat & mouse game of bouncing from one roadblock to the next.

Rick sure does realize it but a tad too late. The first group would have been the easiest target. All armed but guns lowered. Abe and Sasha could have slipped out back of RV and coordinated ahead of time when to unleash some full auto. But Rick didnt act for a couple reasons. None of which we know for sure so I'm guessing. The easiest reason is there is a risk that the saviors get off some rounds. Assault rifles will easily disable an RV and zip right through its walls. Add a chance that Team Rick member goes down in hail of gun fire. Secondly I wonder if Rick saw the somewhat relaxed posture of the Saviors and had concerns about his flank in the tree line. I would be. And Rick loves Maggie. Non romantic of course but death was looking real for her and he played risk vs reward. Rick's heart over rode his common sense. I can't blame him there. Humans feel. If he was a robot that always played it uber safe he wouldnt be likeable.

Now the RPG is one hell of a luxury but in reality has limits. The first group, they may have gotten away with but some Saviors were behind different vehicles. Good chance some survive and unleash some full auto fury. At 50 yds I know what I can do with full auto. The other roadblocks grew bigger and more wide spread. Add that RPGs are unguided and you guarantee any miss would be catastrophic. Also I'm not serious, these are just some ideas. No doubt plot device was driving Rick as well.

Personally, if I was on team Rick I would plea for a no taken hostage policy. After Terminus the group should make the united decision to just go out guns blazing and kill everything you can. The zombie Apoc isnt really that pleasant of a place to live so fuck it, I'm not kneeling and I'm not gonna let someone torture me or kill me slowly.

[Moon Knight]

Rick even realizes that they are being led into a trap, yet they still go for it! I guess the only "explanation" one can give for such a potentially suicidal decision is that since Maggie needs a doctor they have no other choice but to take a chance, even if the Hilltop was in fact very likely taken over by the Saviors. But then again they still could more easily have just removed any one of the roadblocks by using the couple of RPGs they must still have in their arsenal and just go straight to the point instead of wasting time playing the cat & mouse game of bouncing from one roadblock to the next.

The cat and mouse game is what made the episode so damn scary. The look on Rick's face was horrifying. He knew he f*cked up bad and now he has the group in a no win situation. I remember reading the book and blaming everything that happened on Rick. Now that I gave it time and thought about it, that was some horrific shit and the tension was building every second. If it wasn't for the terrible ending this would have been a classic.

[MinionZombie]

Interesting theory regarding a 'soft reveal' of a potential Daryl death. There are weird people out there who'd give up on a show just because one single character left - which is just insane, in my view - how on earth have you watched this long on the strength of one single character alone, who wasn't even in the first couple of episodes, and didn't become the giant that he is now until season 3?! People who'd ditch TWD on losing Daryl don't deserve TWD in their lives. :D Seriously though, what a daft thing - but some might just do it - so yeah, a 'soft reveal', taking the plaster off slowly rather than quick - letting the possibility linger in their minds for a long while to ease them into the idea, with Reedus' own show as a comforting hand on the shoulder.

If they did pick Daryl it'd be quite something to lose him! If we saw that happen in 7x01 it might, as said, encourage more folks who might otherwise leave to stay - the "I've started so I'll finish" mentality, and with a much reduced case of 'insta-aggro'. It's debateable how many audience members would leave, but there's no doubting that Daryl is a hugely popular character on the show - and audience figures mean advertising revenue which means budgets capable of pulling off the show we know and love, particularly at this time when the world is expanding more and more. So there's a considerable financial consideration to take into account. TWD doesn't grow on trees. :D


I think some of you might be forgetting that Negan played it by chance; his victim was chosen at random, so it didn't really matter if the person was injured or not. At least that how I always imagined it when I read the book.

The episode started with someone's POV and it also ended with that same POV. It wasn't a coincidence that the finale was bookended that way. So, yeah, that leaves Daryl, Michonne, Glenn, and Rosita. If you also read Negan's body language as he's stating "...feed the other eye to his father.", all signs point he's speaking to his right; so his victim is on the left side.

Negan might be playing it by random - but the writers won't. The writers determine where Negan's bat falls last. ;)

Good catch on the POV aspect - you could very well be right, the victim might be in that group of four - so it could be a greater chance of being Glenn or even Daryl (who, aye, does have his own motorbiking show starting soon - albeit he'd have filmed it in-between TWD shoots). Shit, it could be Michonne! I think Rosita's safe - her death wouldn't have the impact that this cliffhanger now requires as an absolute necessity, and there's more for her to do. OR is that what the writers want us to think? Might it have just been a bookend of sorts? Might it be a way to distract us and make us think it's one of those four when in actual fact it's someone from the RV group?

So, really, taking all the chat here to date, the core contenders in my mind would be Abraham, Daryl, Glenn, or Michonne. Ooof - tough choice. I'd hate to lose any of them.


Now the RPG is one hell of a luxury but in reality has limits. The first group, they may have gotten away with but some Saviors were behind different vehicles. Good chance some survive and unleash some full auto fury. At 50 yds I know what I can do with full auto. The other roadblocks grew bigger and more wide spread. Add that RPGs are unguided and you guarantee any miss would be catastrophic.

With the RPG it's a one shot deal and you have to be on target - but it's also bulky, so hopping out of that RV's side door, aiming, and firing would take longer than a Saviour to realise "OH SHIT!" and shoot the person holding the RPG. At worst it's shoot off course and harm nobody, at best the RPG handler wouldn't even get a shot off.


The cat and mouse game is what made the episode so damn scary. The look on Rick's face was horrifying. He knew he f*cked up bad and now he has the group in a no win situation. I remember reading the book and blaming everything that happened on Rick. Now that I gave it time and thought about it, that was some horrific shit and the tension was building every second. If it wasn't for the terrible ending this would have been a classic.

1) Agreed. The slowly increasing sense of dread and hopelessness was extraordinary in this episode. Each encounter chipped away at Rick's confidence. They all became mice in a cage as cats prowled around them.

2) I think the frustration of the cliffhanger will diminish in time. Certainly once Season 7 gets underway ... but right now it's a pain in the arse. :lol: I certainly feel that the cliffhanger got in the way of the episode as a whole. I've seen numerous versions of comments online akin to 'having sex for 90 minutes and then stopping just before you bust a nut'. :lol: The aggro is all aimed at that cliffhanger and is getting in the way of everything else the episode nailed ... in some ways it's actually taken away from the impact of Negan appearing, which is a shame ... but really folks shouldn't allow the lack of a few seconds of footage to sully the entire deal.

[facestabber]

The POV to start and finish episode is being theorized as the victims. Ive seen theories that use that and justify it by position inside van. Some say that's Glenn's, some say Michonne and some Daryl. IMO the van POV is most likely Daryl. The focus goes in and out much like a person bleeding from a bullet. Having said that I still don't believe the clues really exist. No way creators want it discovered by camera angles etc.

It sucks that we lost a team member but on the bright side a great team still exists. And some day Negan will die and it better be more dramatic than what the Gov got.

[shootemindehead]

1) People that say they're done with the show were either never really into the show in the first place, or are tossing their toys out of their pram. The same wailing happened after Sansa's wedding night on Game of Thrones. A lot of flapped gums, and then cooler heads prevail. The Internet is always full of immediate rage and not enough reflection.

Of course. But you can't keep dicking your audience about and expect everything to be grand. 'The Walking Dead' will no doubt still keep a large crowd, but the producers/studio aren't doing themselves any favours with this kind of crap.

I personally know people who are done with it now. They've not liked the direction of the show over the last while and that ending pushed them over.


2) Hollow? I think it's working well. She's come full circle in some ways, and it's all about the cost to her soul. These things she has done - killing Karen and David was the first major step, and the really huge step was having to put down Lizzy. She had to execute a child whom she had grown to love and was almost at the point of essentially calling her her own - and she had to execute her ... that's some pretty messed up stuff right there. She's had to kill a lot of people, many deserved it, others not so much. It's a heavy burden to carry. Out in the wilderness it was just survival mode, but now in Alexandria where people are living (relatively) normal lives, the contrast has never been more stark to her. The interaction with Morgan - who had chosen the complete opposite path to her - threw even more light onto her actions. Frankly, just having her be a badass with no after effects would be boring and cartoonish.

Yeh, it's hollow.

The time to perhaps persue this Carol goes nuts story line would have been after she killed Lizzie. That would have made sense. But she's been offing folk without giving a toss for so long now that at this juncture, her freak out looks stupid.

Her whining on the ground about dying was awful.

Having her question her murderous ways after telling Liz to look at the flowers would have made sense. Doing it now looks like the writers have run out of ideas for her.


Erm, are you sure that's how it went? I've not checked myself, but I remember it going a bit different to you:
Glenn and Maggie had decided to leave Alexandria and set up shop at the Hilltop with their impending child. They were planning to go on a later convoy to the Hilltop, but at the last minute decided to go sooner - it was on the road that Negan stopped them, and then killed Glenn.

You might be right. I haven't read the comic in donkeys.

[Moon Knight]

Of course. But you can't keep dicking your audience about and expect everything to be grand. 'The Walking Dead' will no doubt still keep a large crowd, but the producers/studio aren't doing themselves any favours with this kind of crap.

I personally know people who are done with it now. They've not liked the direction of the show over the last while and that ending pushed them over.



Yeh, it's hollow.

The time to perhaps persue this Carol goes nuts story line would have been after she killed Lizzie. That would have made sense. But she's been offing folk without giving a toss for so long now that at this juncture, her freak out looks stupid.

Her whining on the ground about dying was awful.

Having her question her murderous ways after telling Liz to look at the flowers would have made sense. Doing it now looks like the writers have run out of ideas for her.



You might be right. I haven't read the comic in donkeys.

You make good points about Carol but the way I see it, Back when Carol killed Lizzie, her and Tyreese were still in survival mode. Their main objective was to find shelter and a safe haven so they went looking for Terminus. Carol started breaking down once she had discovered Alexandria and met Morgan. She was settled in and finally had time to reflect on everything she had been through and everything she had done. From killing Karen and David, executing Lizzie, Terminus, The Wolves, ect. Morgan was the one that made her question herself. She didn't have time to sit and reflect when she was trying to survive on the road. Just the way I see it. Her character is coming full circle.

[MinionZombie]

It sucks that we lost a team member but on the bright side a great team still exists. And some day Negan will die and it better be more dramatic than what the Gov got.

I think the 4x08 showdown with The Governor was awesome. But yeah, he deserved even more of a scumbag's death. :elol: Also, aye, it's going to be fascinating to see Team Rick at an all-time low, and then see them claw their way back up to drag that Negan bastard down ... hopefully!


Of course. But you can't keep dicking your audience about and expect everything to be grand. 'The Walking Dead' will no doubt still keep a large crowd, but the producers/studio aren't doing themselves any favours with this kind of crap.

The extent of the audience-dicking is debateable, but I do agree that they needed to be more mindful of their decisions with the finale from an audience perspective. Saying that other shows have done cliffhangers is true, but not enough of a reason. Perhaps a grand plan will reveal itself in 7x01 and we'll all go "yeah, fair enough, it shakes out best that way..." - but maybe we won't and will still say we would've wanted the death revealed in 6x16. There have been cliffhangers in TWD before, but we've also had payoff. Season 4 ended with them all stuck in that railway car - but we'd got them all back together again and had had an awesome conclusion to The Claimers storyline - so that finale delivered on all fronts.

The Season 5 finale ended a touch softer, in that it didn't have a big cliffhanger to it, but it did have a good "oooooh" moment with Rick having just executed Porch Dick, as Reg lies in a bloody heap, and that's Morgan's first look at Rick since "Clear". I was kinda ramped up for bigger things in the Season 5 finale, my expectations were higher/different to what was delivered, but it still worked in general. I was quite relieved that no big players bought it, haha.

This finale for Season 6 was awesome - except for the cliffhanger - which is like a bad aftertaste to a great meal.


The time to perhaps persue this Carol goes nuts story line would have been after she killed Lizzie. That would have made sense. But she's been offing folk without giving a toss for so long now that at this juncture, her freak out looks stupid.


You make good points about Carol but the way I see it, Back when Carol killed Lizzie, her and Tyreese were still in survival mode. Their main objective was to find shelter and a safe haven so they went looking for Terminus. Carol started breaking down once she had discovered Alexandria and met Morgan. She was settled in and finally had time to reflect on everything she had been through and everything she had done. From killing Karen and David, executing Lizzie, Terminus, The Wolves, ect. Morgan was the one that made her question herself. She didn't have time to sit and reflect when she was trying to survive on the road. Just the way I see it. Her character is coming full circle.

Bang on, Moon, bang on. Carol never had the time to contemplate her decisions and actions until she'd got to Alexandria, and it wasn't until Morgan rocked up with his ZA religion that it sewed a seed of doubt. Their butting of heads really drove the point home and now Carol's found an awful pit inside her. She's dealing with a torrent of guilt right now. She wants out. Morgan knows there's a better way - redemption is possible - but Morgan's also realising that his hippy-dippy "everyone is precious even if they're trying to cut your head off" mindset doesn't work well enough.

I wonder if Morgan partly sees in Carol an opportunity to do what Rick refuses to engage with? Perhaps that's how it started, a one-way thing, but now I think he'll try and meet her in the middle. He has his own discovery going on right now, too.

[Moon Knight]

Both Carol and Morgan were on totally different paths regarding their moral outlook. Carol would kill without hesitation and Morgan simply wouldn't kill. Both these characters needed eachother so they can meet in the middle. Carol telling Morgan that in order to protect those you care about, you have to kill. To Morgan, it was either that Savior or Carol that got to live. Morgan made his decision and chose Carol; and in that moment he let go of his beliefs. He killed that Savior so Carol could live. He cares for her. Morgan said "What I believe - I'm not right. There is no right. There's just the wrong that doesn't pull you down." during his car ride with Rick back in 6x15. I think that's pretty spot on and both Carol and Morgan needed eachother to understand this. I believe Carol will become even stronger because of it; and one day so will Rick.

[shootemindehead]

You make good points about Carol but the way I see it, Back when Carol killed Lizzie, her and Tyreese were still in survival mode. Their main objective was to find shelter and a safe haven so they went looking for Terminus. Carol started breaking down once she had discovered Alexandria and met Morgan. She was settled in and finally had time to reflect on everything she had been through and everything she had done. From killing Karen and David, executing Lizzie, Terminus, The Wolves, ect. Morgan was the one that made her question herself. She didn't have time to sit and reflect when she was trying to survive on the road. Just the way I see it. Her character is coming full circle.


Bang on, Moon, bang on. Carol never had the time to contemplate her decisions and actions until she'd got to Alexandria, and it wasn't until Morgan rocked up with his ZA religion that it sewed a seed of doubt. Their butting of heads really drove the point home and now Carol's found an awful pit inside her. She's dealing with a torrent of guilt right now. She wants out. Morgan knows there's a better way - redemption is possible - but Morgan's also realising that his hippy-dippy "everyone is precious even if they're trying to cut your head off" mindset doesn't work well enough.

I wonder if Morgan partly sees in Carol an opportunity to do what Rick refuses to engage with? Perhaps that's how it started, a one-way thing, but now I think he'll try and meet her in the middle. He has his own discovery going on right now, too.


Both Carol and Morgan were on totally different paths regarding their moral outlook. Carol would kill without hesitation and Morgan simply wouldn't kill. Both these characters needed eachother so they can meet in the middle. Carol telling Morgan that in order to protect those you care about, you have to kill. To Morgan, it was either that Savior or Carol that got to live. Morgan made his decision and chose Carol; and in that moment he let go of his beliefs. He killed that Savior so Carol could live. He cares for her. Morgan said "What I believe - I'm not right. There is no right. There's just the wrong that doesn't pull you down." during his car ride with Rick back in 6x15. I think that's pretty spot on and both Carol and Morgan needed eachother to understand this. I believe Carol will become even stronger because of it; and one day so will Rick.

I understand what you guys are saying and it's a good perspective. I suppose my issue is more to do with the writing and timing which, to me, is way off. Carol's been killing people left right and centre. She's been duplicitous and cautious with regards to enemies. She's fooled a lot of people into false senses of security and has delivered whammos to people on numerous occasions, because her character has grown to accept and even embrace the need to kill or be killed with regards to certain people in this world. And all this has happened over a long period of time in the show too.

But now, all of a sudden, she has a crisis because Mags is up the duff and she found a crucifix?

Nah. It's not a good or convincing story line for her at this stage of the game. Maybe series 7 will expand on it or just drop it. Who knows.

Contrasted with Morgan though, who has found some sort of moral code and has tried really hard to live by it. But circumstances have forced him in a very clear way to see that his code is actually a detriment, by and large, to both him and the people he cares about.

Morgan's transition is being handled fairly well, but Carol's stinks. It smacks of simply having Carol's freak out coincide with Morgan's "awakening".

Sure, Carol has had time to think about things, but her crisis came on too sudden in S06E14 to be really compelling (I actually thought she was faking). Maybe her confrontation with Paula showed a few things up as they seemed to come from a similar abusive background. But it would have much been better to have shown her get to this stage in a slower build up while she was in Alexandria. We're talking about going from a hard ass to rolling around on the ground whining about wanting to die in the space of a few episodes.

It's incredibly jarring.

[JDP]

With the RPG it's a one shot deal and you have to be on target - but it's also bulky, so hopping out of that RV's side door, aiming, and firing would take longer than a Saviour to realise "OH SHIT!" and shoot the person holding the RPG. At worst it's shoot off course and harm nobody, at best the RPG handler wouldn't even get a shot off.

You obviously would not attempt to deploy the RPGs right in plain sight of guys with guns ready to be aimed in your direction so that they can shoot you before you have time to use them, but as a surprise attack (like Daryl already did to those other Saviors who were also blocking a road, they did not see him aiming the RPG at them since they were distracted by what was going on with Abraham and Sasha.) Once the team knows that the roadblock is there, they simply back off out of sight, as if they either don't want any further dialogue or an armed confrontation with them. Then a team member with the two RPGs is dropped off and heads to the wooded area on the side of the road and carefully approaches the roadblock as the rest of the team goes back to distract them under the pretext that they have changed their mind, they want to accept a deal and would like to speak to Negan, if possible. While the Saviors blocking the road are being distracted with this, the unseen team member slams them with the couple of RPGs while the rest of the team opens fire on whoever manages to escape the blasts. Roadblock removed.

[MinionZombie]

You obviously would not attempt to deploy the RPGs right in plain sight of guys with guns ready to be aimed in your direction so that they can shoot you before you have time to use them, but as a surprise attack (like Daryl already did to those other Saviors who were also blocking a road, they did not see him aiming the RPG at them since they were distracted by what was going on with Abraham and Sasha.) Once the team knows that the roadblock is there, they simply back off out of sight, as if they either don't want any further dialogue or an armed confrontation with them. Then a team member with the two RPGs is dropped off and heads to the wooded area on the side of the road and carefully approaches the roadblock as the rest of the team goes back to distract them under the pretext that they have changed their mind, they want to accept a deal and would like to speak to Negan, if possible. While the Saviors blocking the road are being distracted with this, the unseen team member slams them with the couple of RPGs while the rest of the team opens fire on whoever manages to escape the blasts. Roadblock removed.

Mmm ... perhaps ... but what's to say they wouldn't get taken in the woods, particularly on their own? You might be fine, but just as easily you might not. Also, even if you did blow them up, you'd still have to clear all the flaming debris out of the road - and with an explosion like that, you'd possibly attract attention from nearby roads. The Saviours likely had walkie talkies and were doing check-ins with each other - as soon as that team didn't check in another group (or more) would come running while Team Rick are scooting searing hot metal and charred bodies out of the way. There's no easy solution to the road blocks.

Interesting that Gimple said, on the 'web only Talking Dead after show' clip, that there were other roadblocks we didn't see in the episode. So these guys really have their shit together now. They got caught with their trousers down to begin with, tried to react in a somewhat haphazard manner that underestimated Team Rick's capabilities, so now they've gone FULL FORCE and have triumphed. Sad times for the Ricktatorship.

[facestabber]

Did anyone else pay attention to Dwights mannerisms? Did any of you feel like he wasn't happy or proud to be a part of that event?

Dwights existence makes me hope its not Daryl. I want to see that play out. When he first appeared in TWD he didn't appear to fit Savior ideals. He crossed Daryl but he didn't kill him. Then he shoots Daryl but purposely not to kill him. Minus the Denise event its almost as if he knows Daryl is a good guy and maybe he owes him a life debt? Maybe he knows Negan wouldn't use Lucille on an injured person? Granted he told Daryl his aim was off and Daryl was his target but could he have been lying because he was in front of other saviors?

Or I could be going insane and Dwight having Daryl's crossbow could spell doom for a certain someone. Food for thought.

[Moon Knight]

I understand what you guys are saying and it's a good perspective. I suppose my issue is more to do with the writing and timing which, to me, is way off. Carol's been killing people left right and centre. She's been duplicitous and cautious with regards to enemies. She's fooled a lot of people into false senses of security and has delivered whammos to people on numerous occasions, because her character has grown to accept and even embrace the need to kill or be killed with regards to certain people in this world. And all this has happened over a long period of time in the show too.

But now, all of a sudden, she has a crisis because Mags is up the duff and she found a crucifix?

Nah. It's not a good or convincing story line for her at this stage of the game. Maybe series 7 will expand on it or just drop it. Who knows.

Contrasted with Morgan though, who has found some sort of moral code and has tried really hard to live by it. But circumstances have forced him in a very clear way to see that his code is actually a detriment, by and large, to both him and the people he cares about.

Morgan's transition is being handled fairly well, but Carol's stinks. It smacks of simply having Carol's freak out coincide with Morgan's "awakening".

Sure, Carol has had time to think about things, but her crisis came on too sudden in S06E14 to be really compelling (I actually thought she was faking). Maybe her confrontation with Paula showed a few things up as they seemed to come from a similar abusive background. But it would have much been better to have shown her get to this stage in a slower build up while she was in Alexandria. We're talking about going from a hard ass to rolling around on the ground whining about wanting to die in the space of a few episodes.

It's incredibly jarring.

Look at it from this perspective. Carol really started breaking down once Sam was killed. She planted all that fear in him that ultimately took him down; his family too. The playback to Carol's voice going through his head as well as the cookie left at his grave wasn't just added for the hell of it. It's there for a reason. Deep down Carol knows she messed with Sam's head and no doubt feels a bit responsible. Was it a bit jarring? Sure, I get that. I see your point and it's completely understandable on your end.

- - - Updated - - -


Did anyone else pay attention to Dwights mannerisms? Did any of you feel like he wasn't happy or proud to be a part of that event?

Dwights existence makes me hope its not Daryl. I want to see that play out. When he first appeared in TWD he didn't appear to fit Savior ideals. He crossed Daryl but he didn't kill him. Then he shoots Daryl but purposely not to kill him. Minus the Denise event its almost as if he knows Daryl is a good guy and maybe he owes him a life debt? Maybe he knows Negan wouldn't use Lucille on an injured person? Granted he told Daryl his aim was off and Daryl was his target but could he have been lying because he was in front of other saviors?

Or I could be going insane and Dwight having Daryl's crossbow could spell doom for a certain someone. Food for thought.

I didn't notice his mannerisms. There is a very interesting story between Daryl and Dwight. It's pretty fascinating considering what goes down in the books. It can go either way really and that has me curious.

[JDP]

Did anyone else pay attention to Dwights mannerisms? Did any of you feel like he wasn't happy or proud to be a part of that event?

Dwights existence makes me hope its not Daryl. I want to see that play out. When he first appeared in TWD he didn't appear to fit Savior ideals. He crossed Daryl but he didn't kill him. Then he shoots Daryl but purposely not to kill him. Minus the Denise event its almost as if he knows Daryl is a good guy and maybe he owes him a life debt? Maybe he knows Negan wouldn't use Lucille on an injured person? Granted he told Daryl his aim was off and Daryl was his target but could he have been lying because he was in front of other saviors?

Or I could be going insane and Dwight having Daryl's crossbow could spell doom for a certain someone. Food for thought.

I was a bit puzzled by Dwight too. He did not seem to fit in with the Saviors, that's why he was escaping them. But for some reason that is not clear yet, he is now back in their ranks again. When he reappeared with that burn scar on his face at first I thought he might be acting on his own with some friends, not with the Saviors, but after the season finale it is clear that he is back with them.

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Mmm ... perhaps ... but what's to say they wouldn't get taken in the woods, particularly on their own? You might be fine, but just as easily you might not. Also, even if you did blow them up, you'd still have to clear all the flaming debris out of the road - and with an explosion like that, you'd possibly attract attention from nearby roads. The Saviours likely had walkie talkies and were doing check-ins with each other - as soon as that team didn't check in another group (or more) would come running while Team Rick are scooting searing hot metal and charred bodies out of the way. There's no easy solution to the road blocks.

Interesting that Gimple said, on the 'web only Talking Dead after show' clip, that there were other roadblocks we didn't see in the episode. So these guys really have their shit together now. They got caught with their trousers down to begin with, tried to react in a somewhat haphazard manner that underestimated Team Rick's capabilities, so now they've gone FULL FORCE and have triumphed. Sad times for the Ricktatorship.

The team member with the RPGs would not go deep into the woods, just enough to be under the cover of the vegetation. He would stay near the road and would proceed cautiously until he is in range of the roadblock, no need to get too close to it either (RPGs have a high probability hit rate even at 100 meters, and at 50 meters hitting the target is almost guaranteed.) The point is to get close enough to deploy the RPGs without being spotted by the people blocking the road. After the deed is done, the team does not need to clear up the flaming vehicles and corpses from the road, they simply pass by the side of the road. There is enough room on the sides of the road for the RV to get through. By the time any other Saviors realize what happened, they would be gone.

From the way those roadblocks are set up, the Saviors obviously have no idea that the Alexandrians are in possession of RPGs, otherwise their barricades would be more protected and they would stand behind them, not in front. The way they stay there in front of their vehicles in closely packed groups waiting for the Alexandrians to show up would be very easy pickings for someone armed with RPGs. One well placed RPG right in their midst would take care of most of them in one single hit. The remaining ones on the periphery who might manage to survive the blast and shrapnel would be gunned down by the rest of the team.

It sure beats the heck out of bouncing from one roadblock to the next, fully realizing that you are being led into a trap (even the guy at the first roadblock already dropped a very blatant hint that all the roads to the Hilltop had been blocked: "OK, friend. Plenty of ways to get to where you're going!", he says in a sarcastic tone; they should have smelled the rat right there and then), and finally getting caught in a hopeless situation where you are at their mercy.

[MinionZombie]

Do they not know that Team Rick has an RPG? Some of their men were blown to smithereens in 6x09 - at the time they didn't know it was Team Rick, but now they do - and there's only so many ways you could blow up a gang of bikers with the drop on you. They might not know specifically they have an RPG in their possession, but something like it, or some kind of explosives.

Facestabber - more good points regarding Dwight/Daryl. It could go either way! It's all quite complex, it could be anyone and it could just as easily not be anyone we theorise because of multiple reasons. The only major hurdle they have is keeping it secret - and I'll be particularly surprised if they do manage that. Gimple (or was it Nicotero?) did mention in an interview, or made an allusion, that they've played with the timeline before (so, in other words, they might do that again in Season 7A - so you could have the dead character's actor on-set filming scenes for events that took place beforehand). We'll see, eh?

[shootemindehead]

Look at it from this perspective. Carol really started breaking down once Sam was killed. She planted all that fear in him that ultimately took him down; his family too. The playback to Carol's voice going through his head as well as the cookie left at his grave wasn't just added for the hell of it. It's there for a reason. Deep down Carol knows she messed with Sam's head and no doubt feels a bit responsible. Was it a bit jarring? Sure, I get that. I see your point and it's completely understandable on your end.

Actually, I forgot about that little creep. That's a good catch.

I have a few days holliers coming up this month and bugger all to do, so I might do a marathon of series 6. It might make more sense then.

I've always maintained that this show is better when it's run through in bulk. Series 2, for instance, was a whole different ballgame when I watched it in one go.

[Moon Knight]

Actually, I forgot about that little creep. That's a good catch.

I have a few days holliers coming up this month and bugger all to do, so I might do a marathon of series 6. It might make more sense then.

I've always maintained that this show is better when it's run through in bulk. Series 2, for instance, was a whole different ballgame when I watched it in one go.

Season 2 was so good during a marathon run. I just loved Shane's story and "Pretty Much Dead Already" is perhaps still my favorite episode. Other than Rick, Shane is my favorite character. Bernthal killed it.

As far as the RPG's go, good point as to why they didn't bring it. Knowing the Saviors are still out there and it worked once I'm surprised the thought never crossed their minds. Then again, I could see a situation where Abraham would simply just forget to bring it. It can happen lol.

[facestabber]

I loved season 2. And yes it is much smoother with binge watching. When that last episode aired and it panned up to see a prison in the back ground I was overwhelmed with excitement. That was a peak of excitement for me knowing that this show has people addicted and it was about to explode.

[Moon Knight]

I loved season 2. And yes it is much smoother with binge watching. When that last episode aired and it panned up to see a prison in the back ground I was overwhelmed with excitement. That was a peak of excitement for me knowing that this show has people addicted and it was about to explode.

That was my favorite close to a season. Rick laying down the law ("Send me a postcard." Lol) to the tease of the prison. Also lets not forget once Daryl put down Dale and said "Sorry, brother", that was the moment the world fell in love with Daryl.

[facestabber]

That was my favorite close to a season. Rick laying down the law ("Send me a postcard." Lol) to the tease of the prison. Also lets not forget once Daryl put down Dale and said "Sorry, brother", that was the moment the world fell in love with Daryl.

Regarding Daryl yes. Remember when Rick thanked him for that and Daryl responds "you shouldn't have to do all the heavy lifting". He had some funny quotes to. "Am I the only one Zen around here".

[MinionZombie]

Season 2 was so good during a marathon run. I just loved Shane's story and "Pretty Much Dead Already" is perhaps still my favorite episode. Other than Rick, Shane is my favorite character. Bernthal killed it.


I loved season 2. And yes it is much smoother with binge watching. When that last episode aired and it panned up to see a prison in the back ground I was overwhelmed with excitement. That was a peak of excitement for me knowing that this show has people addicted and it was about to explode.


That was my favorite close to a season. Rick laying down the law ("Send me a postcard." Lol) to the tease of the prison. Also lets not forget once Daryl put down Dale and said "Sorry, brother", that was the moment the world fell in love with Daryl.


Regarding Daryl yes. Remember when Rick thanked him for that and Daryl responds "you shouldn't have to do all the heavy lifting". He had some funny quotes to. "Am I the only one Zen around here".

Yeah, binge watching often makes it easier to see - and appreciate - all the intricate little things that go on across episodes and between episodes. The pace often feels better at times, too - particularly in Season 2, as you folks have been talking about. I agree on Season 2, when binge watched it patches over the very slow page of the first half (which does feel a bit padded out, it must be said), and it's got a great bit of focused character stuff going on between Rick and Shane. The back half had some superb episodes - all-time great episodes. It was good to see Daryl morph a bit during season 2 and become a member of the group after his little sojourn into the woods alone (when he came back with severed ears strung around his neck, just before Andrea shot him) - as mentioned, when he put down Dale that was a really heartfelt moment for Daryl, a real hero moment.

Thinking of Season 2, it's like looking back on the heady days of youth. :D

[Moon Knight]

It's amazing going back and watching season 2 and realizing how much of the budget was cut. There would be episodes that would only feature one Walker haha. Also, Daryl calling Lori "Olive Oil" was damn priceless.

It's amazing how far this show has come.

[paranoid101]

Did anyone else pay attention to Dwights mannerisms? Did any of you feel like he wasn't happy or proud to be a part of that event?

Dwights existence makes me hope its not Daryl. I want to see that play out. When he first appeared in TWD he didn't appear to fit Savior ideals. He crossed Daryl but he didn't kill him. Then he shoots Daryl but purposely not to kill him. Minus the Denise event its almost as if he knows Daryl is a good guy and maybe he owes him a life debt? Maybe he knows Negan wouldn't use Lucille on an injured person? Granted he told Daryl his aim was off and Daryl was his target but could he have been lying because he was in front of other saviors?

Or I could be going insane and Dwight having Daryl's crossbow could spell doom for a certain someone. Food for thought.

This post got me thinking why did Dwight shoot Daryl, was just a dick move or was there something else to this reason hmm ok on to spoiler zone ish with the idea me and my lass came up with.

Ok as we know from the comics Negan has a bit of a weird morale compass when it come to who meets lucille, it's not normally women, children or the wounded, cause hes wants to show the others prisoners that the strong of the group can't save them and demoralize them even more.

He wont kill Rick as he needs him to work for him, I'm pretty sure the women and Carl are safe due to hes morale compass, Maggie is double safe in my head as a women plus ill, that leave Glenn, Arron, Daryl, Eugene and Abraham, for me my moneys on Abraham cause of the no shit attitude he was giving off.

Anyway enough rambling and on to the Dwight reason for randomly shooting Daryl in the shoulder, did he do it to save him from Negan, hear me out Dwight knows Negan's strategy when it comes to new groups the saviors, one of said group meets lucille I'm guessing a strong member. Does Dwight think he owes Daryl from the first time they met and did this to save him.

God I went on longer then I though it would, this was way shorter in my head, what do you guess think Dwight the jerk or Dwight the savior of Daryl?

[babomb]

My gripe was with how scared everyone was in this episode. They've been surviving a long time. Maggie and Carol strolled into that observatory and layed waste to everyone, slowly, methodically. They all faced off with the Gov and his tribe and won. Negan says right off the bat he doesn't want to kill them, he wants them to work. There's the path to salvation. Negan's gonna kill one, they know that. They should've all been staring Negan in the eye like Abraham did!

A side note: The baseball bat to the head was disturbing in itself. When I was younger I had to hit a guy in the head with a bat in self defense. Totally justified, he came into my house attacking my family and friends. But the sound that the bat made when it hit his head still makes me sick to my stomach thinking about it. And that was almost how I felt watching Negan beat (whoever) over the head. The sounds were not realistic though. In reality, it sounds more like a bat hitting a telephone pole, or an old hardwood tree with no bark. With a bit of a hollow sound, which must be from the brain pan. It's a sound you would never think would come from anywhere on the human body.
It also pushes back against you, meaning the bat bounces off the head enough for it to spring back and hit you with good force.
Trust me when I say that unless you're a psychopath, the experience of hitting someone in the head with a wooden bat is a mentally traumatic experience for you. I'd say even more mentally traumatic than being the one getting hit.

[Moon Knight]

My gripe was with how scared everyone was in this episode. They've been surviving a long time. Maggie and Carol strolled into that observatory and layed waste to everyone, slowly, methodically. They all faced off with the Gov and his tribe and won. Negan says right off the bat he doesn't want to kill them, he wants them to work. There's the path to salvation. Negan's gonna kill one, they know that. They should've all been staring Negan in the eye like Abraham did!

A side note: The baseball bat to the head was disturbing in itself. When I was younger I had to hit a guy in the head with a bat in self defense. Totally justified, he came into my house attacking my family and friends. But the sound that the bat made when it hit his head still makes me sick to my stomach thinking about it. And that was almost how I felt watching Negan beat (whoever) over the head. The sounds were not realistic though. In reality, it sounds more like a bat hitting a telephone pole, or an old hardwood tree with no bark. With a bit of a hollow sound, which must be from the brain pan. It's a sound you would never think would come from anywhere on the human body.
It also pushes back against you, meaning the bat bounces off the head enough for it to spring back and hit you with good force.
Trust me when I say that unless you're a psychopath, the experience of hitting someone in the head with a wooden bat is a mentally traumatic experience for you. I'd say even more mentally traumatic than being the one getting hit.

But this isn't a normal bat. Her name is Lucille and she's awesome.

And she has barbwire. ;)

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This post got me thinking why did Dwight shoot Daryl, was just a dick move or was there something else to this reason hmm ok on to spoiler zone ish with the idea me and my lass came up with.

Ok as we know from the comics Negan has a bit of a weird morale compass when it come to who meets lucille, it's not normally women, children or the wounded, cause hes wants to show the others prisoners that the strong of the group can't save them and demoralize them even more.

He wont kill Rick as he needs him to work for him, I'm pretty sure the women and Carl are safe due to hes morale compass, Maggie is double safe in my head as a women plus ill, that leave Glenn, Arron, Daryl, Eugene and Abraham, for me my moneys on Abraham cause of the no shit attitude he was giving off.

Anyway enough rambling and on to the Dwight reason for randomly shooting Daryl in the shoulder, did he do it to save him from Negan, hear me out Dwight knows Negan's strategy when it comes to new groups the saviors, one of said group meets lucille I'm guessing a strong member. Does Dwight think he owes Daryl from the first time they met and did this to save him.

God I went on longer then I though it would, this was way shorter in my head, what do you guess think Dwight the jerk or Dwight the savior of Daryl?

Excellent theory on Dwight. I wouldn't be surprised if that comes into play.

[facestabber]

It's amazing going back and watching season 2 and realizing how much of the budget was cut. There would be episodes that would only feature one Walker haha. Also, Daryl calling Lori "Olive Oil" was damn priceless.

It's amazing how far this show has come.

Olive oil. Lol. I was trying to remember that comment. Thanks moon. Great stuff

- - - Updated - - -


My gripe was with how scared everyone was in this episode. They've been surviving a long time. Maggie and Carol strolled into that observatory and layed waste to everyone, slowly, methodically. They all faced off with the Gov and his tribe and won. Negan says right off the bat he doesn't want to kill them, he wants them to work. There's the path to salvation. Negan's gonna kill one, they know that. They should've all been staring Negan in the eye like Abraham did!

A side note: The baseball bat to the head was disturbing in itself. When I was younger I had to hit a guy in the head with a bat in self defense. Totally justified, he came into my house attacking my family and friends. But the sound that the bat made when it hit his head still makes me sick to my stomach thinking about it. And that was almost how I felt watching Negan beat (whoever) over the head. The sounds were not realistic though. In reality, it sounds more like a bat hitting a telephone pole, or an old hardwood tree with no bark. With a bit of a hollow sound, which must be from the brain pan. It's a sound you would never think would come from anywhere on the human body.
It also pushes back against you, meaning the bat bounces off the head enough for it to spring back and hit you with good force.
Trust me when I say that unless you're a psychopath, the experience of hitting someone in the head with a wooden bat is a mentally traumatic experience for you. I'd say even more mentally traumatic than being the one getting hit.

Holy shit Babomb is back!!!

[MinionZombie]

Paranoid101 - aye, good theory there, I think it holds a lot of water. :thumbsup:


My gripe was with how scared everyone was in this episode. They've been surviving a long time. Maggie and Carol strolled into that observatory and layed waste to everyone, slowly, methodically. They all faced off with the Gov and his tribe and won. Negan says right off the bat he doesn't want to kill them, he wants them to work. There's the path to salvation. Negan's gonna kill one, they know that. They should've all been staring Negan in the eye like Abraham did!

With the observatory they had the drop of them - the baddies were fast asleep - even when it went pear shaped, the Saviours had lost several of their number and were scrambling and unawares.

The face off(s) with The Governor - in the season 3 finale they knew it was coming, they were prepared and had fortified positions to boot. However, when it came to The Governor's return they were caught with their trousers down, Hershel was decapitated, they lost their homes, they were split apart, it was absolute chaos. It was a considerable low point - their lowest ebb up to that point.

With Negan - well, yes, he does say he doesn't want to kill them all ... but it doesn't necessarily mean he definitely won't kill more than one of them. They're dealing with a psychopath here. But they're terrified because they have survived and come out the victor every time beforehand - now they've come up against a force of considerable size, skill, and viciousness. They're at the end of a very, very long day throughout which they've been cut off at every turn. They've become scared and desperate - and it's at that point they're captured. I'd be shitting myself in the same situation, too - they were completely overwhelmed by the Saviour's numbers. Plus there's the tension of someone is going to get killed, who will it be, and of course Team Rick don't want to lose anyone - it could be someone they love dearly, more than anyone else, so that's a terrible place to be. :(

[JDP]

Do they not know that Team Rick has an RPG? Some of their men were blown to smithereens in 6x09 - at the time they didn't know it was Team Rick, but now they do - and there's only so many ways you could blow up a gang of bikers with the drop on you. They might not know specifically they have an RPG in their possession, but something like it, or some kind of explosives.

The Saviors know that those biker guys were killed, but they don't know what exactly happened. Carol explains what happened with the Savior bikers to those Saviors who were keeping her and Maggie captive, and one of them said something like "well, that explains who killed them". So far the Saviors have had no explanation about what exactly happened on that road, and the people who could have informed them of who was responsible for their deaths were also killed (none of those Saviors who captured Maggie and Carol survived), so the Saviors are still a bit in the blind regarding this. They might suspect the Alexandrians had something to do with it, but they have no proof that it was the Alexandrians who killed those Savior bikers. The fact that the Saviors do not build more protected roadblocks and arrogantly stand in groups right in front of the cars blocking the roads indicates that they still have no idea that the Alexandrians have RPGs and could deploy them against them. The tactic that Daryl used could have worked very well again, taking advantage of the fact that the Saviors do not expect an attack with RPGs.

[bassman]

I'm just pumped to see more of Jeffrey Dean Morgan as Negan next season. Phenomenal casting decision and he was just so much fun to watch. One of those bad guys that you somehow love but you know you shouldn't....

[MinionZombie]

I'm just pumped to see more of Jeffrey Dean Morgan as Negan next season. Phenomenal casting decision and he was just so much fun to watch. One of those bad guys that you somehow love but you know you shouldn't....

Bang on. Couldn't agree more. JDM ruled. :cool:

[Trin]

I was so-so on the episode. The cliffhanger was annoying but not really a deal breaker.

I've been so-so on the season in general. Basically I'm tired of the writing. The show favors plot contrivances where the character actions are out of character, or the plot is implausible, to facilitate climactic moments and shock value. The finale wasn't bad. It was just more of the same.

Examples:
- Team Rick agreeing to slaughter the Saviors based on sketchy reasons and little information.
- The infiltration of the Savior outpost was a poorly planned cluster that resulted in several fire-fights and NO friendly casualties.
- Repeated instances of our best survivors getting surrounded and captured in the woods.
- The "if Rick gets PO'd enough" zombie slaughter.
- The cat and mouse game. One, I don't believe the Saviors could've orchestrated it. Two, I don't believe Team Rick would've drunkenly stumbled into it.

Then there were things I just kinda didn't like:
- The zombie parade.
- Jesse's children.
- The reappearance of zombie guts camo.
- The Carol hyperventilating thing - worked the first time when it was obvious she was playing them. Now, just weird.

For me the BIG missed opportunity was the zombie mass in Alexandria. The zombies outside the walls was epic. The tower crashing and breaching the walls was incredibly cool and scary, and very plausible. That event should've ushered in several incredibly tense episodes trying to deal with those zombies. But we got a 15 minute zombie slaughter whereby they completely marginalized the zombies.

On the plus side, the season has not been dull. We've seen lots of varied locales and situations and we have tons of interesting character development. And for the most part the Alexandrians feel like a good, cohesive community (Jesse's offspring notwithstanding), which is a nice change from last season.

The most interesting thing in the episode was the body armor guys that Morgan found. I'm really interested to see where that goes. I also hope they develop the Jesus character. I really liked him.

As for the Saviors ... I feel pretty "blah" over the whole story arc. I have to believe it is better in the comics given the anticipation here. Negan was cool enough. But, really, if I were Negan I'd kill the entire RV crew. Team Rick *slaughtered* multiple groups of Saviors. His group is way too big a threat to leave intact to any extent.

So I'm not going to stop watching. But I don't exactly live for the next episode either. That should be very concerning to AMC since I'm a huge zombie fan.

[MinionZombie]

For me the BIG missed opportunity was the zombie mass in Alexandria. The zombies outside the walls was epic. The tower crashing and breaching the walls was incredibly cool and scary, and very plausible. That event should've ushered in several incredibly tense episodes trying to deal with those zombies. But we got a 15 minute zombie slaughter whereby they completely marginalized the zombies.

IIRC, Nicotero - the director of the episode - had to cut two days of filming time in order to shoot it at night, as intended, to cover the costs of doing so. They are essentially making a movie in 8 to 10 days with every episode, so there are various production considerations to take into account. Frankly, it's astonishing they achieved what they did with 6x09 in an even tighter-than-usual production window, let alone in a normal number of production days. The whole point of that scene, in the show and the comics (where they likewise had a rapid montage of characters slashing away), was to show the birth of Alexandria as a cohesive fighting force when push came to shove. Since Rick arrived they've been brittle with open hostilities - Rick was almost expelled in the season 5 finale - and yet here, with this major threat all around them, they joined forces for the common good and fought side-by-side. That's the point of the scene, not to just show a bunch of zombies dying (which we see plenty of in that episode and in the show in general).

[facestabber]

I was so-so on the episode. The cliffhanger was annoying but not really a deal breaker.

I've been so-so on the season in general. Basically I'm tired of the writing. The show favors plot contrivances where the character actions are out of character, or the plot is implausible, to facilitate climactic moments and shock value. The finale wasn't bad. It was just more of the same.

Examples:
- Team Rick agreeing to slaughter the Saviors based on sketchy reasons and little information.
- The infiltration of the Savior outpost was a poorly planned cluster that resulted in several fire-fights and NO friendly casualties.
- Repeated instances of our best survivors getting surrounded and captured in the woods.
- The "if Rick gets PO'd enough" zombie slaughter.
- The cat and mouse game. One, I don't believe the Saviors could've orchestrated it. Two, I don't believe Team Rick would've drunkenly stumbled into it.

Then there were things I just kinda didn't like:
- The zombie parade.
- Jesse's children.
- The reappearance of zombie guts camo.
- The Carol hyperventilating thing - worked the first time when it was obvious she was playing them. Now, just weird.

For me the BIG missed opportunity was the zombie mass in Alexandria. The zombies outside the walls was epic. The tower crashing and breaching the walls was incredibly cool and scary, and very plausible. That event should've ushered in several incredibly tense episodes trying to deal with those zombies. But we got a 15 minute zombie slaughter whereby they completely marginalized the zombies.

On the plus side, the season has not been dull. We've seen lots of varied locales and situations and we have tons of interesting character development. And for the most part the Alexandrians feel like a good, cohesive community (Jesse's offspring notwithstanding), which is a nice change from last season.

The most interesting thing in the episode was the body armor guys that Morgan found. I'm really interested to see where that goes. I also hope they develop the Jesus character. I really liked him.

As for the Saviors ... I feel pretty "blah" over the whole story arc. I have to believe it is better in the comics given the anticipation here. Negan was cool enough. But, really, if I were Negan I'd kill the entire RV crew. Team Rick *slaughtered* multiple groups of Saviors. His group is way too big a threat to leave intact to any extent.

So I'm not going to stop watching. But I don't exactly live for the next episode either. That should be very concerning to AMC since I'm a huge zombie fan.

All good concerns. I'm tired of surprise ninja zombies and the surrounded in the woods scenes you described above. Michonne and Daryl are far too skilled for that IMO. Now Daryl was blinded by rage on this last one but still he has great skills. Dwight and his gang weren't covered in camo. They were wearing dark colors which didn't blend in that environment at all. I'm still watching but my excitement isn't at its peak.

[AcesandEights]

I was so-so on the episode. The cliffhanger was annoying but not really a deal breaker.

I've been so-so on the season in general. Basically I'm tired of the writing. The show favors plot contrivances where the character actions are out of character, or the plot is implausible, to facilitate climactic moments and shock value. The finale wasn't bad. It was just more of the same.

Examples:
- Team Rick agreeing to slaughter the Saviors based on sketchy reasons and little information.
- The infiltration of the Savior outpost was a poorly planned cluster that resulted in several fire-fights and NO friendly casualties.
- Repeated instances of our best survivors getting surrounded and captured in the woods.
- The "if Rick gets PO'd enough" zombie slaughter.
- The cat and mouse game. One, I don't believe the Saviors could've orchestrated it. Two, I don't believe Team Rick would've drunkenly stumbled into it.

Then there were things I just kinda didn't like:
- The zombie parade.
- Jesse's children.
- The reappearance of zombie guts camo.
- The Carol hyperventilating thing - worked the first time when it was obvious she was playing them. Now, just weird.

For me the BIG missed opportunity was the zombie mass in Alexandria. The zombies outside the walls was epic. The tower crashing and breaching the walls was incredibly cool and scary, and very plausible. That event should've ushered in several incredibly tense episodes trying to deal with those zombies. But we got a 15 minute zombie slaughter whereby they completely marginalized the zombies.

On the plus side, the season has not been dull. We've seen lots of varied locales and situations and we have tons of interesting character development. And for the most part the Alexandrians feel like a good, cohesive community (Jesse's offspring notwithstanding), which is a nice change from last season.

The most interesting thing in the episode was the body armor guys that Morgan found. I'm really interested to see where that goes. I also hope they develop the Jesus character. I really liked him.

As for the Saviors ... I feel pretty "blah" over the whole story arc. I have to believe it is better in the comics given the anticipation here. Negan was cool enough. But, really, if I were Negan I'd kill the entire RV crew. Team Rick *slaughtered* multiple groups of Saviors. His group is way too big a threat to leave intact to any extent.

So I'm not going to stop watching. But I don't exactly live for the next episode either. That should be very concerning to AMC since I'm a huge zombie fan.

I agree with Facestabber, Trin...a pretty solid list you've come up with, though some of the things don't bother me so much (Zombie Parade was nice, for my money), but the gutless writing, go-nowhere aspect of the filler episodes and that pathetic finale were horrible. Still a decent season, with some very strong and well paced episodes interspersed with some formless, half-baked pap.

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Not a bad episode for the most part.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b205/DougOBrien/Dwight-Schrute-Shakes-Head-and-Rolls-Eyes_zpsfrgj909m.gif


Shootem...who has gotten to you and paid you off?! The Shootem I know would have a pitchfork in hand and hyperbole in mouth, ready to raise the masses to pillory this crap. Instead you give this garbage finale a pass?

Say it ain't so...

[MinionZombie]

that pathetic finale

this crap.

this garbage finale

Where's my pitchfork? :shifty:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_KiKDykb0sFg/SO-DL0nGu_I/AAAAAAAABiE/8bQPEpOOhUA/s400/angrymobfa2.jpg

[shootemindehead]

Shootem...who has gotten to you and paid you off?! The Shootem I know would have a pitchfork in hand and hyperbole in mouth, ready to raise the masses to pillory this crap. Instead you give this garbage finale a pass?

Say it ain't so...


I ain't sayin nuthin'! I don't need anyones stinking money...


















*carefully folds cheque and puts it in pocket*

[kidgloves]

The finale told me that they have NO interest whatsoever in story. If they think they can get away with killing a minor character in the season 7 premiere I'm done.
I know that all sounds ridiculously like a drama queen but it's the only way I know how to articulate my feelings towards this show.
The zombies are freaking awesome but it's never been about them.
The cliffhanger should have been everyone's reaction and what's going to happen next after Negan brutally kills a beloved character

[Wyldwraith]

My big gripe of late with TWD is simple,
It feels like they (the collective decision-makers behind the show) feel as if they've "gotten too big to fail." IF Minion is right, and the cliffhanger was a poorly thought-out decision, then why was Gimple defending it as NOT being a cliffhanger at all? Answer: (IMHO) They knew the reaction they'd elicit, but figured they'd gain more than they'd lose. That the interest in what actually went down would remain into next season, while the teeth-gnashing would be short-lived and ultimately inconsequential.

Now, if they're actually thinking like that then TWD may be in for some really bad times.

[zomtom]

My big gripe of late with TWD is simple,
It feels like they (the collective decision-makers behind the show) feel as if they've "gotten too big to fail." IF Minion is right, and the cliffhanger was a poorly thought-out decision, then why was Gimple defending it as NOT being a cliffhanger at all? Answer: (IMHO) They knew the reaction they'd elicit, but figured they'd gain more than they'd lose. That the interest in what actually went down would remain into next season, while the teeth-gnashing would be short-lived and ultimately inconsequential.

Now, if they're actually thinking like that then TWD may be in for some really bad times.

I could not agree with your statement more. One of my first thoughts after the finale was that Gimple, Kirkman and the writers have all gotten too big for their britches. This of course was after my initial reaction of wanting to throw something at my television. I can't help but feel this crowd thinks they can do no wrong because of their great ratings. They're toying with their fans and they should be careful because it can and probably will come back and bite them in the ass next season. I for one will be back in October but quite honestly, I don't care who Negan's victim is. I did care during the finale but something "clicked" in me at the end. They toyed with me too much and I just don't care which character buys it. I really hope their ratings don't go down but I have been coming across too many people who no longer watch. Gimple and the writers should not take their fans for granted. No show lasts forever.
Good to see you back, Wyld.

[Trin]

I'm kinda digging FTWD. It's the family man's TWD. I have a wife and 3 boys and Fear is a bit more relatable than TWD. The struggles are more akin to what I'd expect and the decisions make more sense. It's a fresh and enjoyable perspective on the fall of society.

Why am I posting that here? Because watching Fear has put into perspective my malaise with TWD. I spent the entire season knowing the group was going to meet with hard times with the Saviors and Negan/Lucille and that a regular would be off'd. So the only mystery has been in the execution. Considering I thought the execution was so-so it has been a bit of a slog. I enjoyed some of the smaller plotlines and reveals, but basically I spent the latter half the season just wanting them to get it over with. And then they didn't even do that.

At this point I simply don't care who they kill. Negan would be foolish to leave any of them alive and if he's smart Alexandria never overcomes the Saviors. Given that I expect Negan will leave most of them alive and Team Rick will prevail somehow, I anticipate next season will be a big dose of WTF. About all I'm hoping for is that something comes out of left-field to sway the advantage back to Team Rick without portraying Negan as a complete idiot. That seems hard to imagine, but it is possible.

My point is... I'm digging Fear.

[facestabber]

My big gripe of late with TWD is simple,
It feels like they (the collective decision-makers behind the show) feel as if they've "gotten too big to fail." IF Minion is right, and the cliffhanger was a poorly thought-out decision, then why was Gimple defending it as NOT being a cliffhanger at all? Answer: (IMHO) They knew the reaction they'd elicit, but figured they'd gain more than they'd lose. That the interest in what actually went down would remain into next season, while the teeth-gnashing would be short-lived and ultimately inconsequential.

Now, if they're actually thinking like that then TWD may be in for some really bad times.

Whats up Wylde? Youre probably right with your opinion. That's why Gimple was on Talking to start damage control. IMO I don't think Gimple fully realized how deep the anger would go. People are pissed off, myself included. The impact would have been far greater if we saw the death and the despair on our team as Negan walked away with his "ta ta"

Depending on spoiler leaks I think 07-01 will have huge ratings, but if they dont deliver in that episode a decline will start.

[MinionZombie]

I've just read that the home video release of Season 6 will feature an alternative version of Episode 6x16 ... nope, we don't find out who dies, rather it's down to swearing.

Much like with the alternative closing line for season four ("They're f*cking with the wrong people"), the season six finale is going to have Negan's original effin' and jeffin' dialogue in it. Seems that both versions will be on the release, so you can choose whichever you like.

I do wish America would grow up when it comes to swearing (and sexy stuff) on network and cable TV, so we wouldn't have to fart around like this - but nevertheless, I'm looking forward to that.

I wonder if they'll do alternative dialogue stuff for Negan from this point forward, so the TV version will have no effin' going on, but the home video version will...

[shootemindehead]

Who sanctions this nonsense?

America can produce TV shows where men shag each other up the arse, guts get ripped from stomachs, heads get blown apart, arms and other appendages get lopped off, ad nauseum...

But say "fuck" and the shop shuts.

I mean, I DO think that some stations are gratuitous sometimes in their approach to titillation (HBO, I'm looking at you), but at he same time dumbfounded that the odd expletive can be such a touchstone in what are post "watershed" adult TV shows?

Ridiculous and mind boggling.

[MinionZombie]

Likely down to protest groups, the PTA, etc etc - they get all tied up in knicker knots if someone swears or flashes a nipple, but tearing out someone's intestines is a-ok! :stunned:

AMC relies on its advertising, and even though it has more freedom than network telly, it still can't having swearing and any worthwhile sex scenes because of whiny groups. I think that, legally speaking, cable channels can show that stuff, but because of fears over protest groups boycotting the products of their advertisers (which would mean advertisers running away and pulling their money with them), they're essentially held to ransom.

It's madness.

Whereas the likes of HBO, Starz, Showtime, etc are subscription channels and can do whatever the hell they like - hence The Sopranos, Game of Thrones, Dexter, Ash vs Evil Dead, et al.

[Wyldwraith]

Sorry for the late reply Facestabber:

Been thinking of something else in the last few months TWD-wise. Why does it seem like TWD Earth is getting *more* populated by humans, not less, as time goes by? Yeah yeah, I get it that despotic warlords are a tried and true trope in anything using the hyphenate "post-apocalyptic"...but seriously. Forget the zombies. You'd be losing people to shit like Cholera, Dysentary (and in the South, probably Yellow Fever as well)...plus a host of other nasty little microbes I haven't bothered to list. I mean seriously, when was the last time you saw a stream of running water in TWD that did NOT have a) an incapacitated but still active Walker, or b) a rotting corpse lying in/across the stream/brook/creek?

All those little riverlets lead to still other bodies of water. And that's ONE health issue. Just one. Gun accidents caused by psychopaths+alcohol, suicides, cancer/heart disease....hell, ASTHMA would be killing people by now with all the inhalers in the pharmacies no longer any good.

So why is it that the violent, follower-type misanthropes seem more numerous than people actually trying to live as close to the modern human standard as possible? I mean Hell, people have been known to get serious infections and die just from being filthy body-wise and then getting a minor laceration that pushes said filth on their skin into the wound.

Not as epidemiologist, but if there is more than one group like the Saviors within 1500 miles of the geography the show is currently focused on, I'd cry BULLSHIT from the tallest building I can find. TWD is getting too cozy with this concept of "dozens of people making it indefinitely despite an environment deadlier than the one faces by our ancient ancestors." Just my .02, your mileage may vary.

[MinionZombie]

As for 'more populated' - over time small bands of survivors clump together, then they start finding places to defend and call home. Some had that from the beginning (e.g. Alexandria), and they expand (and contract) as survivors find them. The people have been scattered to the wind, but now that the weakest have been weeded out, the strongest are finding each other - for good or bad - and that means communities grow.

It's like how in Land of the Dead with mankind getting back on its feet somewhat with a few pockets of humanity scattered about the place in organised cities.

As for viruses etc - well, we have seen plenty of streams etc without walkers in them over the course of the show, but then such a plotline might not fit in with the overall story being told. But we did have the season four story where people got sick as a direct result of whatever that infection was, some kind of 'ultra swine flu' ... not sure whether it was caused by the walkers themselves, or whether the walkers happened to catch it as easily as humans being that they're essentially the same.

There's too many 'real world' issues that get in the way though, if you tried to include everything. Petrol going bad doesn't seem to be an issue here, but by this point in the story you'd be having trouble with that - but no fuel means no vehicles means no car chases or mass transportation, which can seriously hamper your storytelling. So it's fine to suspend disbelief from time to time. So many apocalyptic shows/movies ignore the petrol situation ... although the comic now mostly has everyone on horse back, but much more time has passed in the comic than the show.

[JDP]

Petrol going bad doesn't seem to be an issue here, but by this point in the story you'd be having trouble with that - but no fuel means no vehicles means no car chases or mass transportation, which can seriously hamper your storytelling. So it's fine to suspend disbelief from time to time. So many apocalyptic shows/movies ignore the petrol situation ... although the comic now mostly has everyone on horse back, but much more time has passed in the comic than the show.

It depends on the storage conditions. A well contained gasoline can last for years. The trick is to avoid:

1- the more volatile components in the gasoline eventually evaporating

2- the oxygen and humidity in the air being gradually absorbed by the gasoline and altering its composition

Tightly closed plastic, metal or glass containers will preserve it for a long time.

[facestabber]

Sorry for the late reply Facestabber:

Been thinking of something else in the last few months TWD-wise. Why does it seem like TWD Earth is getting *more* populated by humans, not less, as time goes by? Yeah yeah, I get it that despotic warlords are a tried and true trope in anything using the hyphenate "post-apocalyptic"...but seriously. Forget the zombies. You'd be losing people to shit like Cholera, Dysentary (and in the South, probably Yellow Fever as well)...plus a host of other nasty little microbes I haven't bothered to list. I mean seriously, when was the last time you saw a stream of running water in TWD that did NOT have a) an incapacitated but still active Walker, or b) a rotting corpse lying in/across the stream/brook/creek?

All those little riverlets lead to still other bodies of water. And that's ONE health issue. Just one. Gun accidents caused by psychopaths+alcohol, suicides, cancer/heart disease....hell, ASTHMA would be killing people by now with all the inhalers in the pharmacies no longer any good.

So why is it that the violent, follower-type misanthropes seem more numerous than people actually trying to live as close to the modern human standard as possible? I mean Hell, people have been known to get serious infections and die just from being filthy body-wise and then getting a minor laceration that pushes said filth on their skin into the wound.

Not as epidemiologist, but if there is more than one group like the Saviors within 1500 miles of the geography the show is currently focused on, I'd cry BULLSHIT from the tallest building I can find. TWD is getting too cozy with this concept of "dozens of people making it indefinitely despite an environment deadlier than the one faces by our ancient ancestors." Just my .02, your mileage may vary.

He lives. Well I for one would be up shit creek with the Asthma issue. It sucks to rely on a damn maintenance inhaler to live normal. But I know one of my first raids in a ZA is a pharmacy for advair.

To your points. I agree, that TWD universe seems more populated than ever. As Minion alluded to this has to be chalked up to suspending disbelief. I think we all have to come up with our own beliefs/scenarios to let us continue to enjoy the show. Enjoy I do but I still do NOT like the cliff hanger(assholes). In my mind, this current locale is the exception for populace. The road from Terminus to current was rather desolate.

I do follow spoiler sights, as I am self admitting a weakness. I have an understanding of whats coming and I am intrigued with how they will pull it off. I have found that when I start losing faith, the powers that be come up with an episode that knocks it out of the park. Without a rewatch to date, season 6 has probably been my least favorite. Even with S5 struggling quite often it had some killer episodes, especially 05-01 which was fantastic.

I got sidetracked. Whiskey is getting to my brain. I cant wait for S7. I hope that this season is the best. But I am nervous. The cast is huge. Abundant with talent already, the cast will be expanding. The writers have a balancing act that they need to solve. With an ever growing populace, they better bring their A game.

[Wyldwraith]

One thing I just can't suspend my disbelief on,
In the absence of a working society/ever-present law enforcement, psychopaths being psychopaths would be killing far more readily than they do in our world. Now yes, a frightening warlord with a tight grip on his men could keep a lid on some of that with horrific punishments...but there are times such violent individuals (Who often have drug/alcohol dependencies. Look at Daryl's brother having all that meth at the beginning of the show, for example.) simply aren't thinking straight. Two violent psychos get to drinking, smoking meth etc etc...a fight breaks out over one of the captured women turned into a rapetoy, one of the men ends up with a knife in his kidney.

Multiply be weeks and months, and that's a SERIOUS depopulating effect on the hyper-violent murderous-types that NEEDS to be explained. I need a detailed explanation for how a murderous group too large for the Warlord (In this case this Neegan character) to keep an eye on all of them simultaneously is keeping his men from turning on each other. Someone like the Governor has it easier, where all his folks are contained in one small locale...But once you start sending large units in various directions. Have people running around doing crazy and violent shit...Crazy and violent shit that isn't part of said Warlord's plan is GOING to happen. Simple. Inarguable. Psychopaths just aren't psychopaths when the guy controlling them wants them to be. They're psychos 24/7.

[MinionZombie]

We've only just been introduced to Negan, and we've seen Dwight's punishment for running off (his face is now scarred from being horribly burned - it was even worse in the comics). As such, we've not had enough time to see more of the day-to-day workings of The Saviours, nor hear of little stories like that.

As for Negan's men turning on each other? I'm not that convinced. Sure, maybe the odd drunken scuffle, but I'd imagine word would get back somehow to Negan - or he'd make his own assumptions - and dish out punishment.

As for drugs ... in the earlier days, yeah, but there's no dealers or producers of product any more. So, like we've seen with Nick in FTWD, they'll have to clean up. For a time there'd be some drugs to have, and you could raid evidence lock ups in police stations (while raiding for weapons and ammo etc), but sooner or later you're going to run out. It's been close to two years now in TWD's world, so drugs are going to be an unlikely past time. Booze, on the other hand, would be in far more plentiful supply.

I think Negan has his men on a fairly tight leash and they respect/fear him. So they'll be keeping their noses clean for the most part. They'd also likely be severely punished if they killed other people from the communities because Negan wants them alive to scavenge/make things that he'll then take. It's no use to him if they're dead because of some psychopath getting their jollies.

Rather, I think we'd see psychopaths being able to 'employ' their particular brand of actions to be somehow 'useful' in this world for their own survival. Just look at The Claimers - a rogue band of scumbags roaming around - there's no doubt that they'd be out there doing anything they wanted to poor, defenceless survivors with no luck. Hell, in the Season 4 finale they were about to rape both Michonne and Carl and then murder them all along with Rick and Daryl. However - as we then saw - they didn't last much longer. Groups like that would inevitably eat themselves alive and come to blows somehow sooner or later.

In much larger groups, with a leader who has established a punishment system, that sort of thing would be (and seems to be) far more suppressed.

[Wyldwraith]

Actually (and I'm a former drug dealer who was smart enough not to get caught, with the statute of limitations long since having run out on my crimes (I cleaned my shit up after I got hurt defending an ex-girlfriend from a rapey/abusive ex-husband, and kept my nose clean because I got married a bit after that relationship ended) so you can trust me on this...the chemicals to make meth won't run out until WELL after all the store-made booze is gone. The only thing that keeps meth production down to sane levels in America is constant monitoring of a few of the key chemicals by the DEA and store policy not to sell hundreds of packs of certain OTC medications to people at one time. Without those governors, the anhydrous ammonia supply is HUGE and more importantly, readily accessible. There are, at this present moment, enough of these chemicals in retail stores and district warehouses to keep meth production going at 500x the current level of meth-cook production for something like the next 25-85yrs. There's THAT much of those chemicals freely available, and NONE of them go bad over time, with the POSSIBLE exception of the easily accessible Ephedrine tablets going bad if the storage areas they're in have been exposed to significant amounts of nearby standing water.

Look at Z-Nation. Methamphetamines have become a trade staple for even important things like bullets and antibiotics. (If you don't have 10 friends to warn you if zombies are sneaking up on you, it pays to have a substance in your pocket you can take a few puffs of and avoid sleep for the next 48-72hrs until safer sleep conditions prevail.)

Imported drugs, like cocaine and heroin will be gone in days, not weeks. Prescription opiates are trickier. The pharmacy supplies will be gone BEFORE the pharmacy closes down for the last time. (My Uncle is a Master Pharmacist, he's often told me during zombie apocalypse discussions that one of the perks of being a pharmacist is you start out the apocalypse with two large gym bags full of highly desirable addictive substances for barter. In other words, he (and likely every single pharmacist in the world with the brains) will clean out the opiates for their own uses before shuttering the place.)...But the warehouses that supply the pharmacies on a 5-day cycle (this I know because I'm going to be sucking down Oxycodone for the rest of my life) don't really give the pharmacies a ton of the shit at one time anymore, but they have enough in stock to supply every pharmacy in their supply area for a statutory 60 days if the manufacturers suddenly go offline. (It's a safety feature our government insists on. If you think people overdosing on PCP are violent, you've never seen someone with a 20yr opiate habit whose suddenly been deprived of their meds on a mission to reacquire them. Small child torture and dismemberment cannot be ruled out for even the most moral of such addicts...I mean, *I* know I'd commit mass murder to keep my pills flowing in event of Apocalypse, so I'd assume everyone else would to, right? I mean, that's why addiction is BAD...it makes Animals of human beings. Sure, we're more civilized than meth-heads and needle jockeys...but that's only because the pharmacy is our supplier and insurance coverage pays for the shit.)

Anyways, beyond the local warehouses you have the (also statutory) regional warehouses...now, these have as much security as fucking Fort Knox under normal conditions..and are hard to get into to boot...But, once abandoned...all its going to take is someone ramming an eighteen wheeler into the vault wall. Trust me, I've checked. It's just reinforced concrete. (Yes, I know where the nearest one is...and that's where I'm going to be shortly after the dead start rising while other idiots are holding up pharmacists/breaking into empty/looted pharmacies.)...The supply in THESE buildings could keep a middling-sized city wasted for 5-7 days...so I think that supply will last the few thousand survivors with an inclination/need to pop pills well into the 22nd century.

None of this even touches on the easily cultivated/naturally occurring drugs. Magic mushrooms, Peyote buttons, the ubiquitous marijuana...or the easily manufactured LSD. So no, the drugs will likely last until people are down to drinking moonshine after the retail booze runs out.

[MinionZombie]

Interesting post, Wyld. Fascinating stuff about the storage and supply cycle. There's a plot for an episode of FTWD right there - although probably better suited to a first season that didn't skip most of the good stuff.

Sure, you could produce meth - but would you necessarily have the market for it? A lot of users will be dying as rapidly as non-users. This is also assuming you've got someone who knows how to cook it in the first place.

It could be an interesting aside in a later part of the apocalypse where you've got connected civilisations looking to trade and barter, although it'd still be a relatively small scale operation. And that's assuming those running the communities were okay with drug use inside their walls. I don't think, for example, Rick would tolerate drug use of any kind in Alexandria. I think there's certainly some room for a subplot related around these issues in FTWD ... whether they'll do it or not is another thing. It could provide an intriguing 'gang/territory war' as a backdrop for Nick's story, for example.

[Wyldwraith]

Well,
My point was more that scavengers could easily keep opiates as strong as heroin flowing almost as easily as they can raid a liquor store (and with less zombie trouble, because the buildings with the drugs use segmented construction for security reason, with a lot of bullet-resistant glass for visibility...so it'd be quite difficult to get ambushed in such a building by the walking dead. Other humans, sure.)

Now, your point about all the meth cooks being dead is a good one, I'll grant you. Meth CREATORS are about as sloppy and unlikely to survive as habitual meth-users. So unless one of the few surviving cooks goes on a Johnny Meth-seed type mission to educate the masses on his craft, it'll prolly be gone (at least until civilization rebounds, then it'll be back quick enough if people have to reinvent it. That's one of the things I find hysterical about the War on Drugs. You could multiply the number of DEA officers by 10 million and make it an automatic death sentence to so much as smoke a joint and you wouldn't significantly diminish drug use. Civilized people like getting wasted because..well, civilization makes people miserable. People don't like being miserable, and try to escape being miserable with all the intelligence of a wolf with its leg in a trap. I feel so intensely sorry for law enforcement officials involved in anti-drug crime. If they're not being paid a very good wage for it (and they aren't)...they're literally wasting every hour of their lives they spend on the job, because they're trying to drain oceans with teaspoons...and risking getting their ass shot off while doing it.

Anyways...I was rather thinking that the sort of people the Saviors are likely to attract are really the sort of people most likely to destructively indulge in any feel-good chemical they can...and like I said...the only advantage Neegan has over the DEA is he could actually mete out automatic death-by-torture punishment to the junkies in his ranks. It might scare a few off the drugs, possibly...but believe me, I've seen every facet of addiction. If you could make a junkie believe that there is a 1,000% chance they will be painfully murdered 30 seconds after their next fix wears off, you wouldn't stop 99.999% of them from pursuing it. Now, such punishments could help Neegan KEEP men clean...because non-junkies are much more sensitive to threats (especially imminent ones) to their lives...but stopping ongoing abuse in the ranks...a pipe dream even for an omnipotent all-knowing God who can instantly smite every drug abuser an instant after abuse. Refer to my aforementioned comment on people being miserable etc. Think they're miserable now? Let the dead rise and start eating them...Rick might not tolerate drug use ...but he doesn't have the stomach to exile or execute the users either...at least until as an indirect result of their drug abuse they do something like get people killed.

I agree that it would make an interesting scavenging story, perhaps an interesting power struggle in a semi-recovered post-apocalyptic human holding...but you'll never see it anywhere but on HBO or a similar channel for the same reasons you don't see swearing and Game of Thrones-level nudity on AMC. A lot of powerful organizations in our society only exist because they've sold the majority of citizens the lie they can do something meaningful about drugs. Stop their kids from ODing etc. They can't...but check out the fact the DEA's budget appropriations increase by 20-32% every year like clockwork. They're as much in business as the dealers, and pushing the same product, just the other side of the coin. They're filling jail cells for private corporations in the prison business. ;)

Just thought I'd offer some detailed background on a normally sanitized topic.

[MinionZombie]

It's a bit of a mess, I'll say that for sure! :stunned:

I agree that Negan's men are much more likely to be scumbags ... but then again, that's going from what we've seen of them thus far. They might not be quite as 'bad' (although still pretty bad) - the whole Rick's team attacked first, kinda thing. Or maybe it's more Rick's team aren't as good as they think they are, hehe.

I'd think there'd be plenty of drinking going on in Negan's crew, but yes, it would be a nice touch to have at least one or two of them be into harder narcotics and develop a little subplot around that somehow. They could even have their own little operation going on, mostly for personal use, but perhaps for a few folks on the road and in other communities to get bombed. In the apocalypse you'd definitely want to check out from time to time, so given the chance (i.e. not having to survive on the road in the most basic of fashions) you'd indulge in whatever vice you could (sex, booze, drugs, gambling etc - they had that pictured quite well in Land of the Dead with their re-established community, and it was used to control as much as entertain the masses).

[JDP]

From what was shown in the "sneak preview" of the first episode of season 7, it might be possible to narrow down who got killed by Negan. ***POSSIBLE SPOILER AHEAD***:

We are shown a scene where Negan has just killed someone in the group and is teasing Rick and flaunting the bloody baseball bat in front of Rick's face. Rick has a splatter of blood on the RIGHT SIDE of his face, his left side is clean. Most likely conclusion: someone on Rick's right side was the victim. The closest two people to Rick on that side are Maggie and Abraham. However, Negan refers to the person he's just killed as Rick's possible "right hand man", so that seems to discard Maggie as the victim.

It is also possible that whoever the victim was could have been moved to Rick's right side before being beaten, but the last episode of season 6 did not suggest that such relocation of anyone happened before Negan began the beating, so the most logical conclusion, based on what has been shown so far, is that the victim is someone on Rick's right side, and whoever he or she is would not be too far from Rick since he got hit by some of the blood splatter.

[Moon Knight]

From what was shown in the "sneak preview" of the first episode of season 7, it might be possible to narrow down who got killed by Negan. ***POSSIBLE SPOILER AHEAD***:

We are shown a scene where Negan has just killed someone in the group and is teasing Rick and flaunting the bloody baseball bat in front of Rick's face. Rick has a splatter of blood on the RIGHT SIDE of his face, his left side is clean. Most likely conclusion: someone on Rick's right side was the victim. The closest two people to Rick on that side are Maggie and Abraham. However, Negan refers to the person he's just killed as Rick's possible "right hand man", so that seems to discard Maggie as the victim.

It is also possible that whoever the victim was could have been moved to Rick's right side before being beaten, but the last episode of season 6 did not suggest that such relocation of anyone happened before Negan began the beating, so the most logical conclusion, based on what has been shown so far, is that the victim is someone on Rick's right side, and whoever he or she is would not be too far from Rick since he got hit by some of the blood splatter.

Dont be fooled by what happened at the end of 6X16 as Gimple himself said that scene was very impressionistic. I'm betting he drags the victim into the middle of the group like the comic.

[JDP]

Dont be fooled by what happened at the end of 6X16 as Gimple himself said that scene was very impressionistic. I'm betting he drags the victim into the middle of the group like the comic.

It is possible it was done on purpose to mislead, but it certainly would count as a "nitpick" against the show. The way the scene was shown in 6x16 no one was relocated and Negan went straight for the beating immediately after delivering the final part of the speech, he did not change position and all the time was facing the chosen victim. If you take this as what happened, and combine it with what we saw in the sneak preview of the coming episode, the most logical conclusion has to be that someone on Rick's right side was the person killed.

[Neil]

^ I'm guessing there's some spoilers up there :)

[JDP]

^ I'm guessing there's some spoilers up there :)

"Must not click! Must not click! Must not click!" :)

Technically still just speculation, but based on what we saw at the end of 6x16 and what we were shown in the sneak preview of the coming episode.

[Moon Knight]

It is possible it was done on purpose to mislead, but it certainly would count as a "nitpick" against the show. The way the scene was shown in 6x16 no one was relocated and Negan went straight for the beating immediately after delivering the final part of the speech, he did not change position and all the time was facing the chosen victim. If you take this as what happened, and combine it with what we saw in the sneak preview of the coming episode, the most logical conclusion has to be that someone on Rick's right side was the person killed.

It wouldn't be the first time the show would do something like that. Remember the transition between 6x8 and 6x9? Gimple pretty much already said don't expect it to jump off right where we left off. They have to build up all that momentum and tension again. One of the many issues stemming from such a dissapointing cliffhanger. At this point I won't really care and just want an awesome scene. Also, who knows, maybe Negan swung Lucille at Rick so he can smear that blood. Soon we shall find out.

[JDP]

It wouldn't be the first time the show would do something like that. Remember the transition between 6x8 and 6x9? Gimple pretty much already said don't expect it to jump off right where we left off. They have to build up all that momentum and tension again. One of the many issues stemming from such a dissapointing cliffhanger. At this point I won't really care and just want an awesome scene. Also, who knows, maybe Negan swung Lucille at Rick so he can smear that blood. Soon we shall find out.


Hehehehe! I arrived at the right general conclusion, but not 100% accurate. The chosen victim was indeed to the right of Rick, and not too far from him, but the splatter of blood that hit his right side of the face came from Negan's bat while he was swinging it, not directly from the victim's head, as you commented that it could also be a possibility.

ADMIN NOTE:
The TWD 7x01 thread is now open - http://forum.homepageofthedead.com/showthread.php?t=23643 - please move all discussion of the Season 7 premiere over there, thanks. :)