Justice League (film)

[bassman]

After Batman V Superman divided audiences, everyone involved promised that Justice League was always designed to be the lighter and more "fun" film of Snyder's DC trilogy. It certainly seems that way and I love what I'm seeing!

gglkYMGRYlE

[EvilNed]

Your persisting optimism despite Warner Bros. ineptitude at delivering coherent action films surprises me.

After Man of Steel, the second worst film of 2013, and BvS, possibly the dumbest film targeted at adult people I've ever seen, I hold no high hopes.

Flash seems just as cringeinducing as Lex.

[bassman]

I've enjoyed the previous two films, warts and all. If anything, the mediocre response showed WB what NOT to do with Justice League.

From the bits weve seen, I think im going to enjoy Miller's take on Barry Allen, as well....

[bassman]

3cxixDgHUYw

So much comic book goodness. Hopefully it delivers.

[clanglee]

Looks fun to me.

[MinionZombie]

Aye, looks fun.

"What's your super power?" - "I'm rich." :lol::lol::lol:

I rather enjoyed Batman v Superman and have watched it twice now (although I've only seen the extended cut). BvS and Suicide Squad absolutely have their problems, but the way they were relentlessly shat upon by the critics and click bait media was asinine.

[shootemindehead]

Unfortunately, I knew the punchline to that question as soon as I heard it. There's an old(ish) meme about Batman and Ironman's "being rich" super power. Damn you internet!!!!!!

Anyway, thought 'Batman vs Superman' was fine comicbook fare myself. I didn't get what all the subsequent nonsense was about. This, I'm not so sure about. I fear DC may try to "lighten up" their grumpy Superman and pissed off Batman and turn them into unfunny quipsters. They should just have the balls to stick to their convictions. I don't like their Aquaman either from what I see. Anyway, as far as I'm concerned there only two truly good superheroes.

'Suicide Squad', on the other hand, was bloody awful.

[bassman]

Zack Snyder has stepped away from the film after his daughter committed suicide in March. Although the majority of the film was already filmed, Avengers director Joss Whedon has stepped in for post production and to write/direct additional filmjng. Whedon was recently announced to have joined the DC film universe starting with a Batgirl movie.

I can't imagine how hard this must be for Snyder, but I think he made the right decision to leave the film and be with his family.

[LivingDeadGuy]

Poor guy... However I don't like his movies and I'm not into comic book super heroes either so I doubt I'll be seeing this. Yep siree I'm one of those guys pre-determined to hate a movie before I even see it. :)

[MinionZombie]

Bloody hell! I had no idea. :stunned: Damn, what an awful thing to happen. :(

He made the right decision and I hope they're able to find peace with it (well, as far as anyone reasonably could). Damn...

[shootemindehead]

Jesus, that's awful. Poor fella.

[bassman]

Indeed, it really broke my heart to hear about anyone going through such a horrible tragedy. Like, love, or hate Snyder for his various films, you feel for him after hearing this news.

As a side note, it's amazing that this story was kept quiet for two months before the Snyder's wanted to announce it themselves. Apparently multiple news outlets had heard about what happened but every one of them respected the family and kept quiet. In a business where being the first to break news is of the most importance, it almost restores my faith in humanity that the family was able to announce it in their own way.

Tragedy aside....Isn't it a bit strange that one of the big dogs of Marvel and director of The Avengers is now also working with the "competition" and completing DC's Justice League?

[Neil]

Zack Snyder has stepped away from the film after his daughter committed suicide in March. Although the majority of the film was already filmed, Avengers director Joss Whedon has stepped in for post production and to write/direct additional filmjng. Whedon was recently announced to have joined the DC film universe starting with a Batgirl movie.

I can't imagine how hard this must be for Snyder, but I think he made the right decision to leave the film and be with his family.

Christ, she was only 20 :(

It's amazing what some people are driven to by mental health issues (I assume she was in this category)... So sad! :(

[MinionZombie]

As a side note, it's amazing that this story was kept quiet for two months before the Snyder's wanted to announce it themselves. Apparently multiple news outlets had heard about what happened but every one of them respected the family and kept quiet. In a business where being the first to break news is of the most importance, it almost restores my faith in humanity that the family was able to announce it in their own way.

We could certainly use a lot more of that these days - some integrity in the media once again. Get rid of the clickbait and the rush to be first to report (rather than correct in their reporting), and - as in this instance - appropriately respect the privacy of individuals regardless of fame or wealth.

[bassman]

Spoiler free....

It's a fun time at the movies. Not great but also not a bad film by any means. It's very clear that their decision to make the film lighter after BVS was a priority. It still feels very much like a continuation from Man of Steel and BVS, but takes on a more light hearted adventure film.

It no doubt has it's flaws, some of them being pacing and plot, but it excels with it's characters. Each hero has their own distinctive personality and they all blend really well together to make a diverse but connected team. Even characters that some fans felt they'd missed their mark on in previous films now feel like they're spot on to their comic origins and traditions. There's a huge sense of hope, optimism, and humor when called for, even for the more brooding characters from previous films. They smile, joke, and laugh! :lol: The Flash is the film's biggest comedic relief character and he's a joy to watch. While a different character, Aquaman is also a blast. I can't wait to see their solo films coming up!

As I said, it's not a disaster, but at the same time the film also feels as though it was a committee job. Whether that's down to just how it was made or because of Snyder having to back away in the middle of production, I'm not sure. I spotted a few scenes that felt like they were definitely Whedon's work, but I'm not sure if anyone without knowledge of the films turbulent production would even notice.

In all, it's a fun ride. Can't really say it's any more than that or that I ever expected more than that. So it's a success in that sense. I'm not that type of fan that thinks you can either be a Marvel or DC fan, but can't like both. That being said, comparing this to Avengers only makes sense considering that they're thematically similar, and I'd say they're on even ground.

I recommend it for a fun time.

[EvilNed]

For whatever reason I've grown fascinated by the trainwrecks of the DCEU. Man of Steel, BvsS and Suicide Squad were all three some of the worst big budgeted hollywood films I've ever seen.

In a strange sort of way, I am looking forward to this. Although I won't catch it in the cinema.

Also, it's looking like it won't pull as much weight at the box office as was anticipated. At the same time, Ben Affleck is looking to leave the franchise.

I wonder if Warner will continue along it's set plan or if they will abandon ship, like Universal recently did with their "Dark universe"?

[MinionZombie]

I wonder if Warner will continue along it's set plan or if they will abandon ship, like Universal recently did with their "Dark universe"?

Hmmm... :rockbrow:

Despite the critical mauling that BvS and Suicide Squad got (so extreme that it was clearly an orchestrated pile-on for clickbait purposes), both films made hundreds of millions of dollars and were generally well received by fans (there is some split, but the fans were much more on-side than the critics who were spending an awful lot of time trying to come up with pun-tastic headlines ... yet again for the clickbaity-ness of it all).

Wonder Woman did really well both critically and commercially. So I don't see Warner making any major changes from the path they're on. Perhaps they'll let Snyder go by the wayside now and bring in some fresh blood behind the camera (Patty Jenkins did an excellent job with WW, for instance). I see that David Ayer also won't be returning for the next Suicide Squad-related movie. So I think it's wise to make adjustments, but not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

The 'Dark Universe' thing is an arse-up unto itself. The DCEU had a 'soft start' with Man of Steel feeling more Iron Man-like in that it was it's own thing and then an Expanded Universe grew out of it (BvS did have the unenviable task of doing a lot of the 'franchise setup' heavy lifting). With "The Mummy" it was really more, as Mark Kermode said, simply "Tom Cruise: The Movie" rather than a new version of The Mummy. Now, I've not seen it to be fair, but I have bugger all interest in actually watching it (beyond the plane crash sequence, anyway). While I really enjoy the Mission: Impossible movies, The Mummy just looks like "Mission: Impossible - Mummy Protocol", if I dare be so flippant. What's more, they were cramming an expanded universe down our throats from the get-go, and one that didn't make an awful lot of sense. While there were a few crossover movies (especially during Hammer's tenure with the characters), it's just not a 'connected universe' type of thing. Marvel and DC most definitely are and always have been - so it makes sense.

Trying to shove 'expanded universe' onto anything else is a fool's errand. The utter arse-up that is the "Ghost Corps" thing sums that up nicely.

BTW, I really enjoyed BvS and Suicide Squad. I've only ever seen BvS in it's extended form which, much like Watchmen, feels like it has enough room to breathe to let everything work. BvS undoubtedly bites off more than it can realistically chew, and the finale is too 'big CGI' centric, but I've seen it a couple of times now and it's really good fun (even with the clumsy 'Martha moment'). Suicide Squad takes the notion of a "comic book movie" almost too literally - the structure of its storytelling (especially the telling of backstory), the presentation, etc all feels like the pages of a comic book committed to the silver screen - if that makes sense? It absolutely has problems (yet another 'big CGI' climax, for instance) and its parts are superior to the whole, but again, I've seen it a couple of times thus far and I really enjoy it. Looking forward to a possible Harley Quinn movie, too.

[shootemindehead]

I've yet to see anyone give me an objective set of reasons why they though 'Batman vs Superman' was awful.

'Suicide Squad', yes, was a terrible mess of a film. Muddled and incoherrent, with insipid characters in a story that made no sense whatsoever, with a narrative so full of holes it wouldn't get out of a harbour if it were a ship.

But, 'Batman vs Superman' I thought was an mildly entertaining actioner and certainly not the crisis that some people are trying to make out to be.

As for the "Dark Universe", that was a bad idea from the start and I could have told Universal that for free.

[EvilNed]

I've yet to see anyone give me an objective set of reasons why they though 'Batman vs Superman' was awful.

'Suicide Squad', yes, was a terrible mess of a film. Muddled and incoherrent, with insipid characters in a story that made no sense whatsoever, with a narrative so full of holes it wouldn't get out of a harbour if it were a ship.

But, 'Batman vs Superman' I thought was an mildly entertaining actioner and certainly not the crisis that some people are trying to make out to be.

As for the "Dark Universe", that was a bad idea from the start and I could have told Universal that for free.

It featured an irrelevant plot line where the crescendo was a scene where Wonder Woman youtubed "Metahumans".

Also Batman's entire motivation for killing Superman being unravelled by the mere mention of "Martha" was beyond ridiculous.

There were pointless nightmare scenes thrown in throughout which did not get explained at all. In fact, in one of them The Flash pops up... For no apparent reason whatsoever.

Jesse Eisenberg played the most cringeworthy villain I've ever seen. He was horrible. I admit it, this point is subjective.

BvsJ is objectively a horrible film. Suicide Squad is worse, I agree.

[MinionZombie]

It featured an irrelevant plot line where the crescendo was a scene where Wonder Woman youtubed "Metahumans".

Also Batman's entire motivation for killing Superman being unravelled by the mere mention of "Martha" was beyond ridiculous.

There were pointless nightmare scenes thrown in throughout which did not get explained at all. In fact, in one of them The Flash pops up... For no apparent reason whatsoever.

Jesse Eisenberg played the most cringeworthy villain I've ever seen. He was horrible. I admit it, this point is subjective.

BvsJ is objectively a horrible film.

1) Not irrelevant. It helps set up Suicide Squad as well as Justice League - in Justice League Bats and Wonder go off searching for those very same "meta humans" to join the Justice League. Much like the WWI photo of Wonder Woman teased her standalone film and provided shading for her character within BvS.

2) The "Martha moment" is clumsy. I guess the idea is to humanise Superman (for Batman to not just view him as a God who is above feelings and earthly connections), and remind Batman of his own humanity (he's in a very dark, grim, and violent place in BvS, brooding in his cave and flat-out murdering criminals) ... the method of conveying that is eye-rolling and needed to be better, but the reason for it is solid.

3) Nightmare scenes - the Parademons scene, again, sets up events in Justice League (I've not seen it yet, but I recall there being Parademons on the loose in the trailer). Now, there's an argument to be had about cramming too many of these fragments into BvS as it can get distracting/confusing, but that's a storytelling/structure issue when all things are considered. In and of themselves they're not bad. The Flash appearance, again a set up for Justice League, and I imagine the other side of that sequence will get glimpsed in Justice League (interconnectivity, and all that jazz).

4) I didn't mind Eisenberg. He felt kind of appropriate for all these "dot com" billionaires, some of whom look/sound/act pretty weird, it's gotta be said.

5) Nope. Still subjective on your part. ;)

[shootemindehead]

It featured an irrelevant plot line where the crescendo was a scene where Wonder Woman youtubed "Metahumans".

Also Batman's entire motivation for killing Superman being unravelled by the mere mention of "Martha" was beyond ridiculous.

There were pointless nightmare scenes thrown in throughout which did not get explained at all. In fact, in one of them The Flash pops up... For no apparent reason whatsoever.

Jesse Eisenberg played the most cringeworthy villain I've ever seen. He was horrible. I admit it, this point is subjective.

BvsJ is objectively a horrible film. Suicide Squad is worse, I agree.

These are all entirely subjective.

I didn't find the subplot "irrelevant". Awkardly inserted perhaps. But, as mini has said it functions as a lead in for the present film. It is subtitled 'The Dawn of Justice' after all.

The "Martha" thing is the most overplayed "criticism" of this film, but I don't have an issue with it. Up until that moment, Bruce is blinded by an uncrompromising fear of Superman. A fear that he's admonished for by Alfred. But Bruce is a jaded version of himself here. He's older, tired and Gotham has taken its toll. The mention of Martha simply stops him in his tracks and makes Bruce realise he's been looking at Superman in a skewed manner. It makes him realise that he's been wrong. I really don't get the meltdown that people have over this scene. Crazy stuff.

Can't say I recall the "nightmare scenes" too much, but they probably didn't bother me.

I thought Eisenberg was grand as Lex Luthor, who's a pretty shite vilian anyway.

'Batman vs Superman' has its flaws no doubt, it shouldn't have had any mention of The Justice League and the Doomsday finale felt tacked on, but I've still yet to see anyone come up with objective reasons as to why it's a terrible film. At best, it's usually highly subjective reasoning, that's really a mere matter of taste.

I thought it was a perfectly servicable comic book movie, no worse than any number of them currently in circulation and probably more entertaining than a lot of them, if I'm honest.

[EvilNed]

There's no excuse to anything "setting up" anything else. Because Marvel does that in an end credits sequence all the time which doesn't affect the plot at all. Wanna pay fan service? Do it in some other way than havinga scene where one of the worst actresses on earth watching Youtube for 5 minutes. The same goes for the nightmare scenes, which I highly doubt get a pay off in Justice League...

So combined with the Martha schtick, that's three objectively horrible things about BvsJ. And by horrible, I mean: "Something you might want to try out in film school, but not spend 300 million dollars on".

We'll see about Justice League. I heard they CGI'd Henry Cavill's moustache out.

[bassman]

Now that JL is out, some credible insiders have come forward to describe the Snyder/Whedon scenes and different edits the film went through prior to release. As I mentioned before, the film feels a bit disjointed, missing a distinct vision like BVS(like or hate it, it's no doubt one distinctive vision), and if these reports are to be believed, I can see why. Whedon didn't just finish the film after Snyder had to step down, he virtually made an entirely different film, reshooting roughly 60% of it.

There is a scene-by-scene breakdown available on the net for those that wish to see. It's actually really disheartening to read how much was changed. This is like a repeat of the Donner/Lester situation on Superman 2. Makes me wonder if we'll get a Snyder edit sometime in the future...

[EvilNed]

Now that JL is out, some credible insiders have come forward to describe the Snyder/Whedon scenes and different edits the film went through prior to release. As I mentioned before, the film feels a bit disjointed, missing a distinct vision like BVS(like or hate it, it's no doubt one distinctive vision), and if these reports are to be believed, I can see why. Whedon didn't just finish the film after Snyder had to step down, he virtually made an entirely different film, reshooting roughly 60% of it.

There is a scene-by-scene breakdown available on the net for those that wish to see. It's actually really disheartening to read how much was changed. This is like a repeat of the Donner/Lester situation on Superman 2. Makes me wonder if we'll get a Snyder edit sometime in the future...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think a Snyder edit is possible because he didn't finish the film. I think he filmed 80% of it more or less. Whedon did extensive reshoots however. There are even some comparison pics on the internet of a few "before / after" shots where they inserted reshot footage into existing scenes. They look awful.

Add to that the pictures of Henry Cavill's CGI mouth (sans moustache) and we have yet another clusterfuck in the making. And the producer cutting the film down to less than two hours running time.

And now it "bombed" (in relative terms) making less than any other DC film in it's opening weekend.

[bassman]

From what I've read, Snyder basically did finish his version of the film and had a screening for Warner Brothers so he could explain why he wanted to hire Whedon and ask for extra financing to film these new scenes. They agreed, Whedon had written these additional scenes, but before Snyder went off to film them in England, he had the family tragedy and decided to step down. So essentially Snyder's film was at least in the form of a rough cut.

Apparently after Snyder was no longer in the picture, WB told Whedon to go even further to make the film even lighter than it was and make it his own.

[MinionZombie]

watching Youtube for 5 minutes.

YouTube? I don't recall Wonder Woman/Diana Prince scouring secret documents and videos on YouTube. Nor did the scene go on for 5 minutes. It's pretty brief in the actual film.

Now that is objective. :sneaky:

[EvilNed]

YouTube? I don't recall Wonder Woman/Diana Prince scouring secret documents and videos on YouTube. Nor did the scene go on for 5 minutes. It's pretty brief in the actual film.

Now that is objective. :sneaky:

You get the point. It's a totally stupid scene and totally stupid subplot to begin with.

God damnit, I hate the incompetence in these films. The complete incomprehension in how to craft a film. Riles me up.

[shootemindehead]

There's no excuse to anything "setting up" anything else. Because Marvel does that in an end credits sequence all the time which doesn't affect the plot at all.

It's a franchise. What do you expect? The film is literally the fledgling moments of the Justice League, the current entry in the series.

Personally, I didn't mind Wonder Woman's googling. It was neither here or there and certainly not something that fatally holes the ship. Neither is anything else that happens in the film.

Again, it's just a matter of taste.

People saying that it's one of the worst films ever made are taking hyperbole to a new level, IMO, especially when there are numerous examples of truly bad films out there.

It really wasn't that bad a picture and I've seen much, much worse.

That being said, I am in no rush to see 'The Justice League'.

[bassman]

She didn't search for metahumans on the net, the documents were stolen from Lexcorp by Bruce Wayne, then stolen again by Diana Prince. The entire plot of the movie revolves around Lex hating super powered humans and seeking to destroy them, and the Lexcorp party also served as the beginning of Bruce and Diana's relationship, which is pivotal to this trilogy. Seems like it makes sense with the plot, IMO.

The knightmare sequence and Barry travelling back in time via the speed force to warn Bruce is a little more confusing for non-comic fans, though. Snyder had planned on following it up in JL, but sadly it appears to have been cut by Whedon. The only real connection now are the parademons.

They've announced that the Flash's solo movie will now be based on Flashpoint, which will help explain his ability to time travel. It's also an alternate timeline where Bruce Wayne was killed instead of his parents, and his father becomes Batman. Jeffrey Dean Morgan as Batman?? Sign me the f*ck up for that!

[MinionZombie]

The knightmare sequence and Barry travelling back in time via the speed force to warn Bruce is a little more confusing for non-comic fans, though. Snyder had planned on following it up in JL, but sadly it appears to have been cut by Whedon. The only real connection now are the parademons.

They've announced that the Flash's solo movie will now be based on Flashpoint, which will help explain his ability to time travel. It's also an alternate timeline where Bruce Wayne was killed instead of his parents, and his father becomes Batman. Jeffrey Dean Morgan as Batman?? Sign me the f*ck up for that!

1) Bummer. Perhaps Warner Bros. need to be a bit more confident with their DCEU offerings? Maybe we'll get an extended/alternate cut of JL on Blu-Ray? I'd hope so - the extended version of BvS was quite good. The added material in Suicide Squad wasn't as important, but it was welcome nonetheless. I admit that I was quite surprised to see that Justice League was only 120 minutes.

2) Interesting. And JDM as alternative timeline Batman? Ooh, that'd be cool ... but I wouldn't want it to get too in the way of anything TWD related.

[bassman]

JL is 120 minutes because Warner Brothers not only demanded that it be more light hearted, but there was a mandate that it be under two hours. Just so they can squeeze in one extra screening a day. Ugh.....They really need to stop meddling with the future DC films....

[MinionZombie]

JL is 120 minutes because Warner Brothers not only demanded that it be more light hearted, but there was a mandate that it be under two hours. Just so they can squeeze in one extra screening a day. Ugh.....They really need to stop meddling with the future DC films....

Mmm ... meddling is not good. Wonder Woman was longer and did jolly well for itself! Length doesn't determine quality either which way. ;) :lol:

[EvilNed]

BvsJ, SS and now Justice League. That's three strikes in a row for WB meddling causing trainwrecks.

Still, fascinated to watch.

Meanwhile, Ben Affleck has said that he wants out of it. No wonder, you can see the pain in his eyes as he realizes it's all shit.

wtfoRESVir0

[MinionZombie]

BvsJ, SS and now Justice League. That's three strikes in a row for WB meddling causing trainwrecks.

Still iffy logic there as you're forgetting the success of Wonder Woman that took place between Suicide Squad and Justice League. Three in a row? Factually inaccurate, I think you'll objectively find. :sneaky: :elol: :D

Plus, BvS and Suicide Squad raked in 700, 800, plus million dollars just at the box office (home media and merch not included). Split opinions? Certainly. Without fault? Certainly not. Successful? Arguably, yes.

[EvilNed]

Still iffy logic there as you're forgetting the success of Wonder Woman that took place between Suicide Squad and Justice League. Three in a row? Factually inaccurate, I think you'll objectively find. :sneaky: :elol: :D

Plus, BvS and Suicide Squad raked in 700, 800, plus million dollars just at the box office (home media and merch not included). Split opinions? Certainly. Without fault? Certainly not. Successful? Arguably, yes.

Forgot about WW which I've only heard good things about.

But the three tent-pole titles have all been fiascos. (plus SS)

[bassman]

The truth is really coming out now. This film was doomed before they even started working on it. It's amazing it came out like it did considering all this....

https://www.thewrap.com/justice-league-zack-snyder-batman-v-superman-wonder-woman/

The execs wanted Snyder out, but stuck with him and refused to push the film's release because they didn't want to lose their year end bonuses! When Snyder left they basically had Whedon butcher the film as much as he could to make it "more like Avengers".

[MinionZombie]

The truth is really coming out now. This film was doomed before they even started working on it. It's amazing it came out like it did considering all this....

https://www.thewrap.com/justice-league-zack-snyder-batman-v-superman-wonder-woman/

The execs wanted Snyder out, but stuck with him and refused to push the film's release because they didn't want to lose their year end bonuses! When Snyder left they basically had Whedon butcher the film as much as he could to make it "more like Avengers".

Movie executives bugger up a sure thing? Where have I heard that one before? :lol:

They can't seem to get out of their own way, can they? It's a bloody shame, so it is. Although, to be fair, there were other issues that made it a bit of an arse up, too. Hopefully JL will get an alternative and extended cut on home video that'll resolve some issues and I'll buy a copy. I wish they and everyone would realise that DC isn't Marvel, and nor should it be. I don't want yet more Marvel movies on top of the whole bunch of actual Marvel movies that we've got (and are lined up for the future). I want the DC movies to feel different and to hit harder than Marvel (and the Marvel movies aren't without their own faults).

It's weird that they say Wonder Woman wasn't bleak - well, yes and no. What Wonder Woman actually did was balance the light and dark elements. The humour was in the fish-out-of-water moments and the stuff between the two leads, but we also had some pretty tough and gritty World War I stuff (plus a hideously scarred scientist who was creating poisonous gases), and hell, that nice little town they enjoy gets gassed! But WW balanced the light and dark elements. Marvel tends to struggle with the dark stuff, or when it tries to go dark it usually ends up not working as well because of so much fun and humour that is spread elsewhere. Occasionally they can pull it off (the emotion in Guardians of the Galaxy 1's opening, and the sequel's close, for instance, or the moral grey areas of The Winter Soldier - one of Marvel's very best entries), but generally they skew to the light.

I do think it was time for Snyder to step aside (albeit not under such terrible circumstances - I hope he and his wife are coping as best they can, considering :( ) ... and with a fresh roster of directors working on future projects (and Jenkins returning for WW's sequel), I hope that Justice League proves to be the final lesson that needs to be learned. Seems as if JL was clouted by a lot of external factors beyond its control and then a lack of focus/decision plagued it further.

I'm yet to see it, and I hope they release a better version on home video - that I'll definitely buy. Snyder's extended cuts of both Watchmen and BvS were superior to their theatrical versions.

[shootemindehead]

Thought Wonder Woman was pretty shite myself. It had a poor opening, an ok middle and an awful ending, complete with obvious and terrible villain.

Mystified at the goodwill it's received.

[MinionZombie]

Thought Wonder Woman was pretty shite myself. It had a poor opening, an ok middle and an awful ending, complete with obvious and terrible villain.

Mystified at the goodwill it's received.

The 'big CGI villain' finale did fall into the usual trap that many superhero movies stumble into (Marvel has their own particular one about battles in the sky), but the character of Diana Prince/WW was the most interesting aspect and her journey into the real world beyond the borders of her birthplace. The odd couple dynamic was good, the action was slick, there was a good balance of humour and darkness and thundering set pieces, it had heart, and the WWI setting provided something a little bit different (with added poignancy) to all the present day superhero smash 'em ups. The clash of early 20th Century Britain with her home was entertaining as well as informative.

It has faults like any other movie, and it probably is fair to say it got some added praise because of the gender aspect (especially in these times of everyone scrambling over each other to signal their virtue the loudest and clearest of all on social media), but it's a well balanced and enjoyable superhero flick with an iconic character at its core who could kick ass & take names, be emotional, be funny, make some pointed remarks, as well as handle being a fish out of water.

[shootemindehead]

...but the character of Diana Prince/WW was the most interesting aspect...

That seems to it though. There was really nothing else in it to write home about and personally, I thought the WWI aspect was pants.

Give me 'Man of Steel' any day.

[bassman]

Jeeze these comparison reshoot scenes stand out so bad. The photography is so inferior, but it also looks like Affleck might have slipped back into drinking again....

http://media.comicbook.com/2017/11/justice-league-reshoot-comparison-1054547.jpeg

[bassman]

Loosely related because of it’s DC comics affiliation, a look at Joaquin Phoenix in Todd Phillips’ Joker origin movie:

http://cdn02.cdn.justjared.com/wp-content/uploads/headlines/2018/09/joaquin-phoenix-transforms-into-the-joker-filming-riot-scene.jpg

I think Heath Ledger’s turn as the character kind of taught everyone to reserve judgement until footage is available, but it looks okay to me, I guess. I may not be the biggest fan of the blue around the eyes, but it’s not a deal breaker. I’m more interested in how he’ll play it. Besides....the look isn’t as bad as Jared Leto’s...

[Neil]

Jeeze these comparison reshoot scenes stand out so bad. The photography is so inferior, but it also looks like Affleck might have slipped back into drinking again....

http://media.comicbook.com/2017/11/justice-league-reshoot-comparison-1054547.jpeg

They got the button on his jacket right!

[EvilNed]

Loosely related because of it’s DC comics affiliation, a look at Joaquin Phoenix in Todd Phillips’ Joker origin movie:

http://cdn02.cdn.justjared.com/wp-content/uploads/headlines/2018/09/joaquin-phoenix-transforms-into-the-joker-filming-riot-scene.jpg

I think Heath Ledger’s turn as the character kind of taught everyone to reserve judgement until footage is available, but it looks okay to me, I guess. I may not be the biggest fan of the blue around the eyes, but it’s not a deal breaker. I’m more interested in how he’ll play it. Besides....the look isn’t as bad as Jared Leto’s...

Re-imagening the Joker for the third time in about 10 years is probably not the most fun thing to do for a production designer.

[Neil]

So Zack Snyder's 4hr cut has been released to good reviews!

[MinionZombie]

_ee8aFnRvgY

IGN dug it - 8/10.

Seems like everything has a lot more room to breathe, better characterisation and motivation etc.

[Neil]

The 4:3 format made me think I had a hardware/TV issue for a while...

[MinionZombie]

The 4:3 format made me think I had a hardware/TV issue for a while...

It's the one thing I don't like about the Snyder Cut ... I don't see any justification for the 4:3 ratio for this movie whatsoever.

Nonetheless, I was able to tune it out for the most part.

As for the movie itself - it absolutely shits all over Joss Whedon's utter balls up of a cobbled together, compromised mess. I recognised a few scenes that Whedon carried over into his version, but I was just skim-reading an article about the differences which reminded me of some of the crap that Whedon injected into the movie, or how his scenes hamfistedly attempted to re-write things in order to cram it all into 2 hours.

The inherent flaw with Justice League still remains - that key characters like Aquaman, The Flash, and Cyborg had all not had stand alone movies prior to this team up flick - so the movie still needs to do an awful lot of legwork. However, Snyder's cut finally makes that work, especially for Cyborg and The Flash, whose characterisations and back stories work so much better than before.

It was a dumb idea of Warner Bros. to insist on a 2 hour running time, and yes, a 4 hour theatrical movie was never gonna fly, but come on - the theatrical cut was fatally flawed by trying to shove so much trimmed-down stuff into 2 measily hours. Simply, it didn't feel epic at all - but Snyder's cut really does feel epic. You get a much better sense of the grand scale that Steppenwolf is working on, for instance, and the assembling of the Justice League itself feels much more grandiose and something that is worked for and even involves sacrifice.

Still, it's a shame that, seemingly, this is the end of the road for this particular story - there's clearly a whole tale still to tell, unfinished business as it were, but it's unlikely that we'll get it followed up - but Warner Bros. should smarten up and try and have a go at having Snyder finish his Justice League epic to at least tidy up various loose ends and hanging threads of potential, especially with another Aquaman on the way as well as the Flash movie. I wonder if positive critical and audience reactions might encourage them to change their minds? Mind you - if they did, would the likes of Affleck return? I rather like his version of a matured and gruffer Batman, the grimly optimistic leader that we see in the Snyder cut in far better detail.

So, yeah, put simply, the Snyder Cut absolutely clobbers Whedon's bugger up and shows what was supposed to happen - and not a single dodgy upper lip in sight. :D

[Neil]

It's the one thing I don't like about the Snyder Cut ... I don't see any justification for the 4:3 ratio for this movie whatsoever.

Nonetheless, I was able to tune it out for the most part.

As for the movie itself - it absolutely shits all over Joss Whedon's utter balls up of a cobbled together, compromised mess. I recognised a few scenes that Whedon carried over into his version, but I was just skim-reading an article about the differences which reminded me of some of the crap that Whedon injected into the movie, or how his scenes hamfistedly attempted to re-write things in order to cram it all into 2 hours.

The inherent flaw with Justice League still remains - that key characters like Aquaman, The Flash, and Cyborg had all not had stand alone movies prior to this team up flick - so the movie still needs to do an awful lot of legwork. However, Snyder's cut finally makes that work, especially for Cyborg and The Flash, whose characterisations and back stories work so much better than before.

It was a dumb idea of Warner Bros. to insist on a 2 hour running time, and yes, a 4 hour theatrical movie was never gonna fly, but come on - the theatrical cut was fatally flawed by trying to shove so much trimmed-down stuff into 2 measily hours. Simply, it didn't feel epic at all - but Snyder's cut really does feel epic. You get a much better sense of the grand scale that Steppenwolf is working on, for instance, and the assembling of the Justice League itself feels much more grandiose and something that is worked for and even involves sacrifice.

Still, it's a shame that, seemingly, this is the end of the road for this particular story - there's clearly a whole tale still to tell, unfinished business as it were, but it's unlikely that we'll get it followed up - but Warner Bros. should smarten up and try and have a go at having Snyder finish his Justice League epic to at least tidy up various loose ends and hanging threads of potential, especially with another Aquaman on the way as well as the Flash movie. I wonder if positive critical and audience reactions might encourage them to change their minds? Mind you - if they did, would the likes of Affleck return? I rather like his version of a matured and gruffer Batman, the grimly optimistic leader that we see in the Snyder cut in far better detail.

So, yeah, put simply, the Snyder Cut absolutely clobbers Whedon's bugger up and shows what was supposed to happen - and not a single dodgy upper lip in sight. :D

This four hour cut will be my first experience with the film :)

Makes you wonder if they should have had two films say, three months apart?

[MinionZombie]

This four hour cut will be my first experience with the film :)

Makes you wonder if they should have had two films say, three months apart?

Having seen the movie - nope - it's better as one part. It wouldn't have had the right pacing to be hacked into two parts, it just isn't designed that way.

I watched it in three sittings (two mini doses covered the first hour earlier yesterday, then I bashed out the remainder last night).

Folks who pissed and moaned about BvS will probably find more fault with Justice League (regardless of the cut), but I really quite enjoyed BvS (in its longer and superior 3 hour Director's Cut).

So yeah, I really quite dug the Snyder Cut of JL and, I mean, wow, it really makes Whedon look like an idiot. To be fair, he was stepping into a bad situation with the pressures of an impossible 2 hour time limit for the whole movie, but his changes were all ... ... not good. Seems like he's quite the arsehole to work with, too. So Justice League didn't help Whedon one iota.

Anyway, the movie itself - it's dedicated to Snyder's daughter Autumn (who committed suicide during its original production), and the credits feature a striking cover of "Hallelujah" (Autumn's favourite song, I recall reading). You can certainly pick up on a considerable emotional weight that runs behind this film, one which is quite well reflected with Martha and Lois' grieving of Clark. That additional personal investment, having arrived through a terrible tragedy, has undoubtedly elevated this new version of the movie.

[shootemindehead]

The 4:3 format made me think I had a hardware/TV issue for a while...

Why in the name christ was it released in that ratio?

[bassman]

The aspect ratio is because of it’s intended original release for IMAX theaters. Of course that’s lost on home screens, so that’s why there is a title card saying it’s to “retain Snyder’s original vision”. There’s also been talk of a black and white version coming down the pike, which is probably the one thing Warner Brothers wouldn’t allow for the initial HBOMax release.

As MZ said, this film stomps all over Whedon’s patch job. That being said, it still has its issues. Like BvS, there are certain scenes that work beautifully, then there are also some head scratchers. One of my biggest issues was that almost everything in the Epilogue chapter was filmed recently and tacked onto the end of the flick like a credits blooper reel.

While I understand the urge to get Batfleck and Leto’s Joker together at least one time in the snyderverse, which could now be over, it just wreaks of fan service and stands out as having been filmed recently. Almost every shot is a face close up to avoid the obvious green screen void the actors were in. But at least the Leto Joker wasn’t a Juggalo anymore, I guess? The introduction of another key League Member is also very forced.

Now here’s the question of the day: will the snyderverse continue? Normally I would say absolutely not, but with this Snyder cut resulting in an epic steaming event that’s getting better reviews....will WB get Snyder back? We’ll be getting into the multiverse soon with The Flash, so theoretically Snyder’s story could continue while the main DC films go into another direction.

[Neil]

I watched it in three sittings (two mini doses covered the first hour earlier yesterday, then I bashed out the remainder last night).I love watching long movies like that.

The LOTR extended version(s) I will watch in say hr long spells over a good couple of weeks...

[MinionZombie]

The CGI looked good - except when it comes to physics - so the textures and whatnot generally all looked pretty good (except for the odd shot here or there, such as one low angle shot of Wonder Woman doing a backwards flip where her face/head looked rather weird), but yeah, the physics were still an issue. Oftentimes there's a lack of weight (e.g. Steppenwolf would weigh an awful lot, just look at the size of that bastard, but the way he moves or interacts with the world feels like it's lacking that weight), and many jumps or landings also look 'off'.

It's not a huge deal, but sometimes those brief moments will just look dodgy because the characters' sense of momentum and weight doesn't feel at all real.

Naturally, anyone who spat on BvS will find plenty of things they hate ... but I dug it.


I love watching long movies like that.

The LOTR extended version(s) I will watch in say hr long spells over a good couple of weeks...

Eh? That's a bit too drawn out, don't you think? :lol:

[shootemindehead]

The aspect ratio is because of it’s intended original release for IMAX theaters. Of course that’s lost on home screens, so that’s why there is a title card saying it’s to “retain Snyder’s original vision”. There’s also been talk of a black and white version coming down the pike, which is probably the one thing Warner Brothers wouldn’t allow for the initial HBOMax release.

It wasn't shot on IMAX cameras though. As far as I know there isn't a single piece of footage that wasn't shot on 35mm film and would have to be blown up anyway for projection. So that excuse rings a little hollow. Plus, looking at Snyder's justification last night, I see that his "reason" is that superheroes spend more time upright than horizonal, i.e. flying. Well, doesn't everyone?

The reasoning for 1.33:1 is just so poor for a film of this type. It's a silly comic book superhero movie, not an intimate drama requiring multiple facial close ups, which is the only thing that that AP does better than 1.85 or 2.35 and even then it's a poor justification.

It merely comes across as pretentious twaddle on behalf of Snyder and I invoke the P word here because I think it fits perfectly. There is zero reason to use such an uncomfortable AP for this movie, when 1.85:1 would have suited it better. A film like this gains absolutely nothing from being played out in a box and the fact that the bulk of its life was always going to be as a home release, irrespective of COVID, meant that a release as close to 16:9 would have been a far more sensible option.

It's a remarkable decision for all the wrong reasons.

As for a B+W version...LOL.

[bassman]

I understand the frustration now that it’s a streaming release only, but he of course originally set out for a theatrical release and he preferred the full-screen IMAX on BvS, so he was going to do it for Justice League. It doesn’t necessarily have to be shot on IMAX(I believe Avengers Endgame is the only full-iMAX film thus far, due to the difficulties associated with the massive cameras and limited shot length), it would just prevent the screen from changing back and forth from 2.35 to 4:3

I agree that it probably should have been adjusted once this was scheduled for streaming only, but he does have his reasoning behind it, at least. Much like the violence and unnecessary language, I imagine he wanted to do it his own way once WB brought him back.

If your TV allows it, using the zoom feature will display it at full screen and the images seem to be framed in such a way for a home video release. I tried it this way yesterday for a few scenes and it seemed to work fine, everything was framed perfectly in 16x9. It’s basically just extra information on top and bottom for those expected iMAX releases. But yeah, I get that it’s weird for a streaming only release.

[MinionZombie]

I wonder why they didn't attempt a bit more of the 'Sin City' way of filming for the Batman and Joker scene - shoot the two actors separately to allow for schedules and social distancing, give them eyelines that are coordinated between the two separate shots, then stitch them together digitally. In Sin City you had various scenes - dialogue scenes - between actors who never actually worked together on-set.

[Neil]

Eh? That's a bit too drawn out, don't you think? :lol:

I think I've watched the LOTR extended cuts about 3-4 times now... Love them.

As I said, typically watching them 1-2hrs at a time, over a good week or two :)

[shootemindehead]

I understand the frustration now that it’s a streaming release only, but he of course originally set out for a theatrical release and he preferred the full-screen IMAX on BvS, so he was going to do it for Justice League. It doesn’t necessarily have to be shot on IMAX(I believe Avengers Endgame is the only full-iMAX film thus far, due to the difficulties associated with the massive cameras and limited shot length), it would just prevent the screen from changing back and forth from 2.35 to 4:3

I agree that it probably should have been adjusted once this was scheduled for streaming only, but he does have his reasoning behind it, at least. Much like the violence and unnecessary language, I imagine he wanted to do it his own way once WB brought him back.

If your TV allows it, using the zoom feature will display it at full screen and the images seem to be framed in such a way for a home video release. I tried it this way yesterday for a few scenes and it seemed to work fine, everything was framed perfectly in 16x9. It’s basically just extra information on top and bottom for those expected iMAX releases. But yeah, I get that it’s weird for a streaming only release.

It'll be a travesty for purists I'm sure, but I'll probably end up doing that and zooming into 1.78 if the 1:33 becomes too much of an eyesore. AFAIR, most of the footage will be suited to that ratio anyway.

With regards to IMAX, it's still a bizarre thing to shoot for, considering that there are only about 1500 IMAX screens in the entire world. And a lot of those aren't actually IMAX screens at all. But I am unsure whether this was ever going to get a theatrical release in any case, irrespective of COVID. It just strikes me as a real baloney decision all round and I would suspect that the Blu will have a "widescreen" version upon release.

In any way, for prep :D ,I rewatched both 'Man of Steel' and 'Batman vs Superman' last night and my opinion of them hasn't changed, despite the fact that I could barely recall anything of them from before apart from my overall reaction which was that they are average, ok, superhero movies. Neither worthy of the outrageous praise or the meltdowns that occurred in some quarters. They're certainly flawed, but not boring, and in a number of ways I prefer Snyder's super serious approach than the MCU quip like nothing matters shtick. The gods amongst men angle works well enough, even though the christ thing got a little too on the nose at times in 'Man of Steel' and 'Batman vs Superman' is a rather messy affair no matter what version it's in.

I think I will end up breaking this thing into chapters though. 4 hours seems a bit much. Although I did just do 5 last night. :lol:

[bassman]

^ the film itself is divided into six or so chapters, so you could watch a chapter or two at a time. That was my original intent, maybe split it in half, but it pulled me in more than I expected, so I rode it out.

- - - Updated - - -


I wonder why they didn't attempt a bit more of the 'Sin City' way of filming for the Batman and Joker scene - shoot the two actors separately to allow for schedules and social distancing, give them eyelines that are coordinated between the two separate shots, then stitch them together digitally. In Sin City you had various scenes - dialogue scenes - between actors who never actually worked together on-set.

I’m so torn on this scene. It’s obviously a new addition and done on the cheap, so it has it’s issues, but I love the idea behind it. It’s also great to see Leto get another chance without the bling, and Affleck friggin roars as the bat. I’m excited we get to see more of him in The Flash, should it ever make it to production.

Speaking of Affleck....the epilogue scene on the yacht. It was originally meant to directly set up Affleck’s solo Batman flick that was later replaced by Matt Reeves’ idea. So, was this restored just to keep the original presentation intact, or is there a possibility that Affleck will still get another shot? Although the movies have divided reactions, most people seem to dig the Batfleck.

[shootemindehead]

^ the film itself is divided into six or so chapters, so you could watch a chapter or two at a time. That was my original intent, maybe split it in half, but it pulled me in more than I expected, so I rode it out.

I'm about two and half hours into at the moment Bassy. But I might leave the last couple of chapters for tomorrow night. It's alright I suppose. Pretty much on par with the previous two movies in that it's a mildly entertaining superhero movie.

I did end up just cropping the picture and it's lost nothing as far as I can see. So far the entire thing has been pretty comfortable to watch and I have only noticed about three instances so far where the cropping has blatantly interfered with the framing of the picture.

[MinionZombie]

I’m so torn on this scene. It’s obviously a new addition and done on the cheap, so it has it’s issues, but I love the idea behind it. It’s also great to see Leto get another chance without the bling, and Affleck friggin roars as the bat. I’m excited we get to see more of him in The Flash, should it ever make it to production.

Speaking of Affleck....the epilogue scene on the yacht. It was originally meant to directly set up Affleck’s solo Batman flick that was later replaced by Matt Reeves’ idea. So, was this restored just to keep the original presentation intact, or is there a possibility that Affleck will still get another shot? Although the movies have divided reactions, most people seem to dig the Batfleck.

Yeah, Affleck rocked as Batman. I never understood the flack he got from certain quarters (although it seems a regular thing for a new Batman actor to get grief and have to prove himself), he did a great job. Also, yeah, nice to see a less 'iffy' Joker. All those tatts and bling was overkill, even though I did enjoy Suicide Squad (flaws and all).

It does tease the audience quite a bit, that epilogue sequence, but hey, if it helps get WB to bring Snyder back to finish off his Justice League story then that's okay with me.

The yacht scene - I believe it was restored to this original version to just be true to what it was intended to be. I suppose, if they did a follow-up JL movie now, you could have a version of what was intended for the Batfleck solo movie considering some of the epilogue - so that could work nicely for a subplot.

I really would quite like to see a follow-up JL movie now. There seems to be a lot of fans saying the same thing.

[shootemindehead]

So I ended up finishing it out last night and come away thinking that it's a bloated mess, but not one that's without its entertainment value. But there's just too much and there's a feeling that it's droning on and on at times. It's certainly feels better than what I can recall of the theatrical release which is something I suppose. But it's not the second coming either like some would have you believe.

In the end, Batfleck was probably the best thing about it and The Flash was well done by Ezra Miller. I'd like very much to see Alfeck reprise the role in a more focused Batman movie series. But one without stupid alien/god shite, cos that really kills things for me I have to say. Keep things more earthbound like Nolan's trilogy, which is still the high water mark for all superhero movies. Frankly, it's probably only the Batman dynamic that kept my interest in the whole thing.

But WTF is going on in that ridiculous epilogue future scene? That was just awful and so, so, unnecessary.

[MinionZombie]

But WTF is going on in that ridiculous epilogue future scene? That was just awful and so, so, unnecessary.

It's the second 'Knightmare' - following on from the one we saw in BvS.

It's setting up things to come (or not, depending on what WB do from this point forward). It is Bruce Wayne's nightmarish vision of what could come to pass (and what would likely happen in a sequel or sequels) ... an apocalyptic superhero situation.

[shootemindehead]

It's the second 'Knightmare' - following on from the one we saw in BvS.

It's setting up things to come (or not, depending on what WB do from this point forward). It is Bruce Wayne's nightmarish vision of what could come to pass (and what would likely happen in a sequel or sequels) ... an apocalyptic superhero situation.

Well sure. But it just feels so extraneous here.

[MinionZombie]

Well sure. But it just feels so extraneous here.

I wouldn't say that.

Perhaps it feels a bit odd as it is part of an epilogue - the climax of the movie has passed and this is other stuff bolted onto the end, so instinctually it feels out of place.

However, it also feels like a bit of a pitch, in a way - but a pitch that is public and there to garner audience response. I feel there's a game afoot, not a nefarious one, but a Hollywood game where the studio are the mark instead. The Snyder Cut proves that the 2 hour Whedon cut was a total blunder, and I wonder if the epilogue is partly a way of Snyder presenting where he wants/wanted to go, directly to the audience, so that WB will take note.

[bassman]

Because Warner Brothers is serious about making HBOMax a real streaming contender, I could see a situation where they let Snyder continue his story in some fashion. Of course the high production costs would be an issue, but if his Justice League and upcoming Army of the Dead prove to be profitable streamers, they could probably work something out. In a world where Marvel has it’s major players on TV, I could see the Snyderverse getting a more appropriate ending.

Given how JL plays as episodic and leans into Snyder’s more adult ideas, I feel like giving him some room to breathe on HBOmax would be a winning scenario for all parties. After all, just a year or so ago Warner Brothers were saying there was no way we’d ever see the Snyder Cut of Justice League, yet here it is. Throw him some episodic money and it’s guaranteed streaming subscriptions.

I wouldn’t mind a Justice League: Knightmares type of mini series. Episodic adventures set in Snyder’s universe, done relatively cheap, giving his trilogy more closure, while also keeping it entirely separated from theatrical releases that are going in more traditional directions.

[EvilNed]

Given how JL plays as episodic and leans into Snyder’s more adult ideas, I feel like giving him some room to breathe on HBOmax would be a winning scenario for all parties.

As an audience member, this line reminds of the tagline for Alien vs. Predator:

Whoever wins... we lose.

[bassman]

As an audience member, this line reminds of the tagline for Alien vs. Predator:

Whoever wins... we lose.

:lol: Good one! To each his own, but it may very well happen. We live in a world where Helen Mirren has just signed on to play the villain in Shazam 2, so I wouldn’t be surprised if Snyder is able to finish his story in some fashion.

[paranoid101]

Watched it today and it's fine, way better than the Joss Whedon one, I'm pretty much in agreement with the Red Letter media guys review.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNp3Q0AfXRg&ab_channel=RedLetterMedia

As they pointed out the wonder Woman theme evertime she does something really does stand out.

[MinionZombie]

2sqOBaw5CQM

VFX comparison study between the Whedon and Snyder cuts.