TWD 7x01 "The Day Will Come When You Won't" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN*

[Neil]

Please keep all talk of this episode specifically inside this thread.

If you have a theory for a following episode, please use the "spoiler tags" (visit the HPOTD FAQ to find out how to use them if you don't already know).

Similarly, if you're going to discuss plot points from the comic book, please use "spoiler tags" - not everyone is up-to-date on them, and some people don't read them at all.

Enjoy!

Directed by: Greg Nicotero
Written by: Scott M. Gimple

And off we go again :)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/6d/Walking_Dead_S7_Poster.jpg/220px-Walking_Dead_S7_Poster.jpg

[facestabber]

Sundays are great again. Cant wait.

[kidgloves]

This is being aired at 2.30am this morning on Fox in the UK and Ireland straight after the US.

[AcesandEights]

Wow, Mary Sues never die, they just fade into boring.

[Wyldwraith]

Wow,
Yeah that does it for me. I think I'm just gonna keep tabs on the show via Wiki plot synopsis until this arc is done. The mustache-twirling was too much for me. Rick would've died, but he easily could've killed Neegan seven distinct times I counted. The whole "Grab the axe" and Rick gets held off by getting an assault rifle pulled on him one-handed was cringe-worthy. For once the accusations my words are completely negative are right. I'm disgusted. I really, truly, completely am. I'll be back when the word Neegan has disappeared from being commonly referenced. Take care all. That was heartbreaking for me, and it shredded the last of my tolerance.

Peace :)

[rongravy]

Dang, Glen's eyeball hanging out. I knew he was going to get it, because Negan mentioned killing everyone who was left earlier in the episode. I took it to mean he offed more than just Eugene. I enjoyed it.

.

[Harleydude666]

Wow,
Yeah that does it for me. I think I'm just gonna keep tabs on the show via Wiki plot synopsis until this arc is done. The mustache-twirling was too much for me. Rick would've died, but he easily could've killed Neegan seven distinct times I counted. The whole "Grab the axe" and Rick gets held off by getting an assault rifle pulled on him one-handed was cringe-worthy. For once the accusations my words are completely negative are right. I'm disgusted. I really, truly, completely am. I'll be back when the word Neegan has disappeared from being commonly referenced. Take care all. That was heartbreaking for me, and it shredded the last of my tolerance.

Peace :)

Give me a break dude, who are you kidding, you're not going anywhere, nice try. Anyway it's fiction, get over it, I've seen so much worse. This episode broke new ground but unfortunately for TWD it can never be topped. It's almost as if they brought a top notch movie director in to direct this episode. It just felt too different than anything TWD has done

[babomb]

unfortunately for TWD it can never be topped. It's almost as if they brought a top notch movie director in to direct this episode. It just felt too different than anything TWD has doneI agree. I enjoyed it but it did feel a little bit over the top at times. They risk killing it if they plan to try to keep outdoing themselves. Talking dead also had a really strange vibe to it. The way the cast came out in weird outfits, and the whole "live" event thing. Personally I would've just preferred it to be like every other season, without the grandstanding that started with last seasons finale.

[Wyldwraith]

I'm not given to simple QQ-ing of the moment,
I mean what I said. Neegan reminds me of Dick Dastardly. All that was missing was Muttley snicker-wheezing. Kinda bummed the season finale of The Strain is next week. Least it hasn't done so well their writers have fallen into Can Do No Wrong Mode.

The Zombie Apocalypse would be a horribly shitty place to live. I have a hard time anyone who'd seen light at the end of the tunnel, only to be suddenly thrust into abject slavery would be so in love with breathing they'd put up with it. I mean for God's sake, the scene from the next episode has Neegan himself knocking on Alexandria's gate with his lame-ass bat. Shoot the fucker and let the Saviors self-destruct fighting over whose in charge (which, in reality is EXACTLY what would happen if Neegan went poof. The Saviors aren't a company of elite black ops guys.)

It felt like the showrunners were sorry they were on basic cable, because they so clearly wanted to have Neegan pumping his bare cock in between quips and mindless savagery.

My one bit of cockles-warming satisfaction is that the critics are eviscerating the show for killing Glenn off after the fake Glenn death of the previous season, and doing it with zero dignity. I'd like to see the show drop a hair short of cancellation. Something to throw a scare into the showrunner and writers. The whole thing would've had me giggling it was so over the top, if it wasn't so damned sad.

I have the same problem the show is demonstrating in some flawed RPGs I've played. The ones where every bit of new content you explore has the difficulty of the monsters perfectly rising to meet your level increase, so you never have the sense of making any progress. Frankly the Governor blasting the hell out of the Prison played the overwhelming ruin brought on by invading psychos card. Alexandria is a better setup, so of course lets bring in an antagonist of unbelievably implausible might, and then...Just to make sure they go right over the top, let's have the leader of said overwhelming force be a hardon-stroking sadist with the mentality of a six year old that likes to pull the wings off flies...because of COURSE *THIS* is JUST the kind of guy to gain the unwavering loyalty of hundreds of devoted psychopaths.

I've seen much worse myself. That's the problem. I didn't want to see TWD go down the Direct-to-DVD sewer. Since I've been apprised Neegan's a long-running villain, I am over it. There are actual forms of entertainment to be indulged in unless/until TWD gets its head out of its ass.

Like I said, The Strain is rocking it. Game of Thrones is finally getting really serious. I've got no beef if others find Neegan's antics entertaining. It's your Sunday night hour, after all. Personally, I got enough of Neegan in high school. I locked mine in a dumpster in late April Florida sunlight with a wasp's nest...and to top off my crime, managed to net HIM a felony conviction and myself a pat on the back from the police and I have the court documents to prove it.

I know real viciousness. I went to a high school that had paramedics called to rush the victims of the football team's varsity members about two or three times a month, with said victims facing suspensions when they got back for supposedly starting fights with said psycho jocks. Trust me, real sadism doesn't come with giggling quips. It comes with flat dead eyes, from people externalizing their own pain and thereby trying to diminish it by foisting it off on others.

I say Neegan is so over the top there's no horror in what he does. Just the splatter of urine and feces on what at its high point was dystopian art. Your mileage may, as always, vary.

[DayoftheZ]

Never fails to amaze me how after watching an episode in which I spent most of my time on the edge of my seat or punching the air in celebration I come on here and people are moaning about ‘another poor episode’. I think I can count the number or ‘poor episodes’ on one hand and to be fair it is in my opinion a long time since there has been one. In fact I saw people giving FTWD better write ups than the main show and I gave up on that one in season 2A.

This weeks was exactly what I want in an episode of The Walking Dead, it was first and foremost as tense as hell and the payoff was off the charts. I was a bit sad that Abe’s death lost some of its magic because Glenn’s was way more brutal.

This is the point in the comic books where I started to lose interest in the story but In the TV show I couldn’t be anymore exited to see where we go. TV Negan is way more believable and much cooler than the comic book, and his sense of power over Rick is intriguing.

I hope we don’t lose Daryl in the mix as without Glenn, Abe and Daryl realistically Team Rick and Hilltop have zero chance of beating Negan.

[Moon Knight]

People on here just love bashing the show no matter what. That was a poor episode? Ok, just stay away it's not hard. This dude Wyld is on another level he takes it way too serious. Goodbye, dude.

Anyways, great emotional roller coaster. Andrew Lincoln deserves an award already.

I'll have more to say tomorrow. Peace.

[DayoftheZ]

People on here just love bashing the show no matter what. That was a poor episode? Ok, just stay away it's not hard. This dude Wyld is on another level he takes it way too serious. Goodbye, dude.

I know.

Sometimes I think back to Maggie when they first storm the prison and she says with a broad smile “you see that!!” I wonder if some of the posters on here would respond to her “yes it was rubbish, you could have put on a pair of gloves first or at the very least had a health and safety meeting”

The zombie apocalypse is not real like, people in the zombie apocalypse do not play by the same rules as us, and in a Zombie apocalypse all of the decisions in this episode seem plausible.

If this was Fear the Walking Dead, Rick would have fallen from that bridge been covered in the walker’s guts and walked back to the RV.

Also

Just reading reviews of the episode and I spotted this little fact which I thought was pretty nice.

………………………..“The title is a callback to the Season One finale, wherein Edwin Jenner answered Rick's insistence that he was "grateful" to the CDC scientist for helping him survive by saying … well, y'know. So this is apparently that day, when Rick will wish that Jenner had just kept him and his friends locked inside a building that was rigged to explode”…………………..

[Neil]

This is being aired at 2.30am this morning on Fox in the UK and Ireland straight after the US.

Yeh, I was awake about 3am in the morning, and couldn't sleep, was recording it, so got up and watched it :)

Thought it was a pretty good episode, and the fact it seemed to pass by so quickly for me backs that up...

Very very tense at times, and that final scene of the zombie chowing down on left over brain mush? Eeek!

- - - Updated - - -

Tell you what... I hope we get a Negan back story episode to find out what he was, and what made him become this!

[JDP]

Killing Negan at this point would be a big mistake. Sure, you could try to go "kamikaze" and take him out even if it means you will die too. Rick could have done this on several occasions while he was inside the RV with Negan, but he realized that this would only mean death for the rest of the captured group. And now Negan has taken Daryl as a hostage to make sure the Alexandrians remain "in line" and do as they are told. So, realistically speaking, the only tactic left for them if they don't want Daryl to be executed is to try to capture someone important among the ranks of the Saviors and then negotiate an exchange of hostages. Negan would be the most ideal target for capture. This guy so far seems exceedingly cocky and lets his guard down since he thinks that having hostages will prevent any retaliation. In the sneak-peeks of this season that we have seen so far, we see one scene where Negan is knocking on Alexandria's door in person. That would be a great opportunity to capture this dude. Set a trap when he comes in to collect his "tribute". Once he becomes a hostage himself, the Saviors are given the ultimatum of either cooperate and release Daryl or their leader dies (and he will die a horrible death, like being beaten to death with his very own bat, for poetic justice.)

[MinionZombie]

Bugger - I forgot to put the thread up! :lol: Thanks for putting it up, Neil - and even more so for keeping up the style guide. :D

...

WOW! That was an emotional wringer of an episode.

My guess was correct - Abraham and Glenn - but even still, seeing it play out in live action was a gut punch. I do agree that Abraham's death was a little affected, but you do have to have escalation ... still awesome that he went out with one final Abrahamism. As soon as I saw Abraham square up to Negan in 6x16 I knew he was for the chop - Negan would see that as a clear and present threat and nip that in the bud sharpish.

Seeing Glenn, with his eye all popped out, and struggling to call after Maggie was heartbreaking (compounded all the more with that dream-like shot of them all eating dinner together and playing happy families) ... jesus ... what a punch in the gut, but stunningly executed (no pun intended). Did anyone also notice towards the end the Saviour taking a photograph of Glenn's splattered head? Remember when Glenn was looking at similar photos when they raided that Saviour outpost?

Now ... thinking about the cliffhanger of it all now ... yes, at the time it seriously pissed me off, and I did wonder how this episode was really going to play out, but looking at it objectively ... ... I can kind of see their point about it making more sense to do it this way. To be fair, it's not like they're the only show to have ever done a cliffhanger, and binge-watching culture's faults (aside from the fun of binge watching) are down to we the viewer in terms of impatient viewing ... ... structurally speaking this was definitely the right call. I was a bit peeved I didn't find out who got Lucille'd straight away, but seeing it all play out through Rick - at Negan's behest in order to recondition him into a subservient underling - made sense.

The one thing that I wasn't expecting was the whole scene with the hatchet. The preview scene at NYCC (with Negan dragged Rick and his hatchet into the RV) made me think Negan was going to cut off one of Rick's hands - and then that didn't happen - and then, holy shit, I really believed he was going to make Rick do it ... but of course, that was the key thing to breaking Rick - Rick was going to do it. In that moment, the Ricktatorship was broken ... damn ... a hell of a moment. Bravo Nicotero & Co!


Never fails to amaze me how after watching an episode in which I spent most of my time on the edge of my seat or punching the air in celebration I come on here and people are moaning about ‘another poor episode’. I think I can count the number or ‘poor episodes’ on one hand and to be fair it is in my opinion a long time since there has been one. In fact I saw people giving FTWD better write ups than the main show and I gave up on that one in season 2A.

This weeks was exactly what I want in an episode of The Walking Dead, it was first and foremost as tense as hell and the payoff was off the charts.

Agreed - that was a bloody good episode and a real bruiser, too. Sometimes I wonder if some folks are so against the show, why don't they just pack it in already? To me, at least, it seems like viewing it in such a way is just an exercise in seeking out disappointment. I seriously don't know what some people want, it baffles me ... to each their own.

For me though? Loved it. I'm glad I managed to make it the six and a half months without it being spoiled, it was a risky move, but I'm not one for seeking out spoilers.

I do wonder if maybe they could have split the deaths across two episodes, though - so have Abraham killed in 6x16, and then make people think that was it and then bam - 7x01 - Glenn gets it as well. However ... structuring it that way would also be a headache for 7x01's structure, so it's not so easy to move things around. These writers are professionals, this is their job, they know structure well and how to pace an episode - so even if it pissed me off at the time to have to wait so long, it's worked out in the end for me and all is forgiven on that front. Seeing 7x01 I'm convinced it was the right call, fan aggro aside, as it made much more sense for story structure and getting Season 7 off on the right foot - just like Negan said himself - a whole new story from this point on.


People on here just love bashing the show no matter what. That was a poor episode? Ok, just stay away it's not hard. This dude Wyld is on another level he takes it way too serious. Goodbye, dude.

Anyways, great emotional roller coaster. Andrew Lincoln deserves an award already.

I'll have more to say tomorrow. Peace.

Yeah, Lincoln nailed this. The interplay between Rick and Negan was excellent - it was all about Negan reconditioning Rick from a leader into a servant. Negan doesn't want to slaughter everyone, and he needs people who are strong enough, but he needs to break their will at the same time. He needs people to do his bidding and bring him food and supplies etc - killing everyone would be pointless - killing Abraham was tactical, killing Glenn was punishment for Daryl's pot shot (that's going to tear Daryl up inside - by lashing out, Daryl condemned Glenn to death ... it was a random selection, but the link to someone dying is still there). It's going to be fascinating to see how this plays out.


I know.

Sometimes I think back to Maggie when they first storm the prison and she says with a broad smile “you see that!!” I wonder if some of the posters on here would respond to her “yes it was rubbish, you could have put on a pair of gloves first or at the very least had a health and safety meeting”

The zombie apocalypse is not real like, people in the zombie apocalypse do not play by the same rules as us, and in a Zombie apocalypse all of the decisions in this episode seem plausible.

If this was Fear the Walking Dead, Rick would have fallen from that bridge been covered in the walker’s guts and walked back to the RV.

Also

Just reading reviews of the episode and I spotted this little fact which I thought was pretty nice.

………………………..“The title is a callback to the Season One finale, wherein Edwin Jenner answered Rick's insistence that he was "grateful" to the CDC scientist for helping him survive by saying … well, y'know. So this is apparently that day, when Rick will wish that Jenner had just kept him and his friends locked inside a building that was rigged to explode”…………………..

:lol::lol::lol:

Also - ooh, didn't notice the title before - fantastic call back! It makes the episode even more chilling than before! :shifty:


Yeh, I was awake about 3am in the morning, and couldn't sleep, was recording it, so got up and watched it :)

Thought it was a pretty good episode, and the fact it seemed to pass by so quickly for me backs that up...

Very very tense at times, and that final scene of the zombie chowing down on left over brain mush? Eeek!

- - - Updated - - -

Tell you what... I hope we get a Negan back story episode to find out what he was, and what made him become this!

Yeah, the walker going for the remnants of brain matter was a gruesome touch ... a hell of a thing ... it'll be interesting to see how/if they provide Negan's backstory. There'll be a fine line to tread between mystique and explaining just enough to put a little more shading into him for detail.

...

So, yeah, a big thumbs up from me ... ... I'll have to go off and have a ponder for more discussion points ... welcome back TWD, you heartbreakin' bastard! :D

[Harleydude666]

I'm not given to simple QQ-ing of the moment,
I mean what I said. Neegan reminds me of Dick Dastardly. All that was missing was Muttley snicker-wheezing. Kinda bummed the season finale of The Strain is next week. Least it hasn't done so well their writers have fallen into Can Do No Wrong Mode.

The Zombie Apocalypse would be a horribly shitty place to live. I have a hard time anyone who'd seen light at the end of the tunnel, only to be suddenly thrust into abject slavery would be so in love with breathing they'd put up with it. I mean for God's sake, the scene from the next episode has Neegan himself knocking on Alexandria's gate with his lame-ass bat. Shoot the fucker and let the Saviors self-destruct fighting over whose in charge (which, in reality is EXACTLY what would happen if Neegan went poof. The Saviors aren't a company of elite black ops guys.)

It felt like the showrunners were sorry they were on basic cable, because they so clearly wanted to have Neegan pumping his bare cock in between quips and mindless savagery.

My one bit of cockles-warming satisfaction is that the critics are eviscerating the show for killing Glenn off after the fake Glenn death of the previous season, and doing it with zero dignity. I'd like to see the show drop a hair short of cancellation. https://t.co/JFSL4Oq2rV to throw a scare into the showrunner and writers. The whole thing would've had me giggling it was so over the top, if it wasn't so damned sad.

I have the same problem the show is demonstrating in some flawed RPGs I've played. The ones where every bit of new content you explore has the difficulty of the monsters perfectly rising to meet your level increase, so you never have the sense of making any progress. Frankly the Governor blasting the hell out of the Prison played the overwhelming ruin brought on by invading psychos card. Alexandria is a better setup, so of course lets bring in an antagonist of unbelievably implausible might, and then...Just to make sure they go right over the top, let's have the leader of said overwhelming force be a hardon-stroking sadist with the mentality of a six year old that likes to pull the wings off flies...because of COURSE *THIS* is JUST the kind of guy to gain the unwavering loyalty of hundreds of devoted psychopaths.

I've seen much worse myself. That's the problem. I didn't want to see TWD go down the Direct-to-DVD sewer. Since I've been apprised Neegan's a long-running villain, I am over it. There are actual forms of entertainment to be indulged in unless/until TWD gets its head out of its ass.

Like I said, The Strain is rocking it. Game of Thrones is finally getting really serious. I've got no beef if others find Neegan's antics entertaining. It's your Sunday night hour, after all. Personally, I got enough of Neegan in high school. I locked mine in a dumpster in late April Florida sunlight with a wasp's nest...and to top off my crime, managed to net HIM a felony conviction and myself a pat on the back from the police and I have the court documents to prove it.

I know real viciousness. I went to a high school that had paramedics called to rush the victims of the football team's varsity members about two or three times a month, with said victims facing suspensions when they got back for supposedly starting fights with said psycho jocks. Trust me, real sadism doesn't come with giggling quips. It comes with flat dead eyes, from people externalizing their own pain and thereby trying to diminish it by foisting it off on others.

I say Neegan is so over the top there's no horror in what he does. Just the splatter of urine and feces on what at its high point was dystopian art. Your mileage may, as always, vary.

Well I'll tell ya what, critics SUCK, so I feel bad for ya if you're going to follow what the critics, like, don't like, agree, or not agree with. Glen's death was awesome. Finally a death where the characters don't get to gather around and hold a vigil for their comrade, just a quick shocking brutal death where no one gets to think about except for the horror of it. I'm tired of main characters getting a noble death, this worked for me! Good luck dude

[DayoftheZ]

Bit of an obvious one but Glenn is the first Atlanta campsite victim since Andrea in Season three, ironically killed indirectly by the last big TWD villain The governor. It takes a special kind of killer to take out Atlanta camp lot there days!!

All that is left from the Atlanta camp is Rick, Carl, Carol and Daryl, that is unless Morales and his family turn up. I guess we should include Morgan in the Atlanta crew but at this moment in time only Rick and Carl are in Alexandria.

So in addition to this the only pre-Alexandria survivors in Team Rick are:-

Rick, Carl, Carol, Daryl, Morgan, Maggie, Judith, Michonne, Sasha, Tara, Eugene, Rosita and Father Gabriel.

[Neil]

Bugger - I forgot to put the thread up! :lol: Thanks for putting it up, Neil - and even more so for keeping up the style guide. :DI'm like your RIght Hand Man... Now where have I heard that recently? :)


Did anyone also notice towards the end the Saviour taking a photograph of Glenn's splattered head? Remember when Glenn was looking at similar photos when they raided that Saviour outpost?Very nice touch that!


I'm sure there will be a Negan back story episode... Just seems too much of an opportunity to miss!

[facestabber]

Did Maggie's level of badass not just rise exponentially? WAR Maggie Greene

[JDP]

Did anyone also notice towards the end the Saviour taking a photograph of Glenn's splattered head? Remember when Glenn was looking at similar photos when they raided that Saviour outpost?

The Omen:

http://forum.homepageofthedead.com/showthread.php?t=23488&p=314451&viewfull=1#post314451

Now Glenn hangs in the Savior's version of The Louvre as one the "masterpieces".

[Neil]

The Omen:

http://forum.homepageofthedead.com/showthread.php?t=23488&p=314451&viewfull=1#post314451

Now Glenn hangs in the Savior's version of The Louvre as one the "masterpieces".

Yep, a nice story thread!

[facestabber]

There is much to discuss and I look forward to all of it. I would like to see people's thoughts on the Rick/Negan comparisons.
Prior to this episode I have seen many compare the two saying they are the same(social media wide)I think after experiencing Negan in his full glory, that the comparisons are surface deep. Thoughts?

[MinionZombie]

Okay - some thoughts...

The moment when Rick dived off the RV and grabbed onto the hanged walker was awesome. A very cool scene, very tense and dangerous as well.

Also, the bit where Rick's hand got stuck into that one walker's bile-filled inflammation underneath their jaw was super gross. :lol:

Glenn's last, stumbled words were heartbreaking. I was prepared for it coming, having predicted it'd be a twofer of Abraham and Glenn, but even still - it was a tough scene to watch. That pizza boy has been through a hell of a journey, and for it all to end in such a hideous manner is a kick in the gut. I'm gonna love to hate Negan.

Where's a dumpster to hide under when you need one?! :(

I've already said how good Lincoln was in this episode, but let's not forget about Jeffrey Dean Morgan - holy crap - the dude is absolutely nailing Negan. I saw in an interview with him that he said one of the keys to the vibe of the character was a shot in the comic of Negan kind of arched backwards and laughing. He's got the physical mannerisms and swagger, that sense of showmanship, spot on. He's so compelling to watch - he's going to be a lot of fun to watch as an actor, and a lot of fun to hate as a character.

TWD 7x01 Memes:


https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-SIcy_9Yievc/WA4z45rjv7I/AAAAAAAAE8A/Z41Tf-disRoxvLiYkBsY2fVu0cBkL9ZiwCLcB/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_7_Meme_Eugene_Watching_Pre miere_Like_7x01_DeadShed.jpg

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-jbygKlG884s/WA4zzzwTpcI/AAAAAAAAE74/yQs2FiqCj80m7jNK-S8dwRo8fbxgeY6jgCEw/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_7_Meme_Devastated_Snot_Tea rs_Must_Be_Watching_TWD_7x01_DeadShed.jpg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-x3T4gsyFncA/WA4z4OkOlqI/AAAAAAAAE78/I4cOH-bNwUcI4jVFHrJSzar1dfyhFb-lQCEw/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_7_Meme_Rick_Walker_Hanging _Know_Who_Negan_Killed_lol_No_7x01_DeadShed.jpg

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-B39_PFrpCWo/WA4z6v7M1FI/AAAAAAAAE8E/kIlNHj23TV8IxtyIiUgR-fNA_hMsGbf5gCEw/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_7_Meme_That_TWD_Negan_Feel ing_7x01_DeadShed.jpg



:)

...


I'm like your Right Hand Man... Now where have I heard that recently? :)

I'm sure there will be a Negan back story episode... Just seems too much of an opportunity to miss!

So does that make you Simon or Abraham? :elol: Speaking of Simon - played by Steven Ogg (most widely known as Trevor from GTA V), I'm really looking forward to seeing more from him. I didn't know if he'd be a small part or a big part, so hearing Negan call him his right hand man made me happy - we should be seeing a good amount of him (hopefully!).

I don't know which fate would be worse, getting Lucille'd, or living on after someone you love has been Lucille'd.


Did Maggie's level of badass not just rise exponentially? WAR Maggie Greene

Maggie, last of the Greenes, is strong like nobody's business. Seeing her be the first one to stand up ... oof, the struggle of it all.

Now here's a question - did anyone else take it that Maggie was wanting to commit suicide when she said for them all to leave her be, that she could make it to the Hilltop on her own? Interesting that Sasha was the one who said she'd go with Maggie - considering Sasha's previous story in Season 5 after the deaths of Bob and Tyreese, I think Sasha recognised that was what was really going on.


The Omen:

http://forum.homepageofthedead.com/showthread.php?t=23488&p=314451&viewfull=1#post314451

Now Glenn hangs in the Savior's version of The Louvre as one the "masterpieces".

*shudders*

I wonder if someone from Team Rick will see that polaroid at some point in the future?


There is much to discuss and I look forward to all of it. I would like to see people's thoughts on the Rick/Negan comparisons.
Prior to this episode I have seen many compare the two saying they are the same(social media wide)I think after experiencing Negan in his full glory, that the comparisons are surface deep. Thoughts?

Rick/Negan? On the surface the comparison is curious, but we've only just encountered Negan in this context. There will no doubt be some shades in the future as events unfold - in Seasons 2 and 3 we didn't entertain too many comparisons between Rick & Shane or Rick & The Governor - but we've had numerous times now in which Rick has done exactly the sort of thing Shane was calling for in Season 2, or even had visual and aural references to The Governor when Rick goes full 'tatorship mode.

[UndeadHippo]

i must admit i was expecting Abe, but Glenn caught me right in the gut. good call on the showrunners part to include everyone in the opening credits too, and for having all those split-second Lucille-meets-the-cast moments, really helped to contain any leaks (having seen a couple of youtube suggestions claiming that it was Maggie who got the bat). nice bit of misdirection.

really enjoyed the episode overall, and it's got me wanting to watch next week.

The elephant in the room for me is Negan's lack of colourful language. while in the comics it goes a long way to defining the type of guy he is, i think Jeffery Dean Morgan manages perfectly well without it. I do wonder if the less "Advertiser friendly" language was also recorded and if it will be a DVD extra kind of thing, and if it will really make that much of a difference. I'm well past the age of being shocked at the odd F-bomb, but i think in a post-apocalyptic zombie-infested hellhole, the vast majority of people aren't going to be so particular about minding thier p's and q's, so Abe telling Negan to "suck my balls" just made me think of cartman from south park.

threatening to cut off a teenage boy's hand is just cruel. do you have any idea what that would do to his sex life??? lucky for Carl that negan is not *quite* that sadistic. :D

[MinionZombie]

Another thing I dug was seeing a bit of the eenie meenie scene from Rick's POV, you really felt powerless in that moment and it gave you a chillingly immersive glimpse at being in that situation. The whole thing was beautifully shot, too, with the car lights and mist and the silhouettes ... and that smoke-clogged RV scene was very atmospheric. Nicotero did a fantastic job!


The elephant in the room for me is Negan's lack of colourful language. while in the comics it goes a long way to defining the type of guy he is, i think Jeffery Dean Morgan manages perfectly well without it. I do wonder if the less "Advertiser friendly" language was also recorded and if it will be a DVD extra kind of thing, and if it will really make that much of a difference. I'm well past the age of being shocked at the odd F-bomb, but i think in a post-apocalyptic zombie-infested hellhole, the vast majority of people aren't going to be so particular about minding thier p's and q's, so Abe telling Negan to "suck my balls" just made me think of cartman from south park.

threatening to cut off a teenage boy's hand is just cruel. do you have any idea what that would do to his sex life??? lucky for Carl that negan is not *quite* that sadistic. :D

I listened to a Nerdist podcast with Gale Anne Hurd (one of the producers of TWD) and she said they are filming 'sweary alternatives' of Negan's monologues specifically for the DVD and Blu-Ray releases. The season 6 finale has alternate dialogue, but as you say, JDM has embodied the character without the swearing - so I'm fine either way - but yes, in the comics Negan's foul language is part of his shtick.

America really needs to grow up about the F-word on cable television at the very least. I mean, really, come on. Like Chris Hardwick said on Talking Dead (I enjoyed the 'Hollywood Forever Cemetery' special, nice to have a change of pace for the big return - make an event out of it, you know?) you've just seen people have their heads smashed in, so if you're offended by the F-word then GTFO. :lol:

To be fair, Negan did ask Carl if he was a south paw - which he wasn't - so his love life wouldn't be too affected. :lol: That said, no chance of 'the stranger' ... ... lucky for him though it was a psych out ... ... although I was convinced they were going to do it. The sheer sadism of that moment was astonishing - the sheer drama of it all - no wonder the cast have been saying these episodes have been rough on them emotionally.

[babomb]

Killing Negan at this point would be a big mistake. Sure, you could try to go "kamikaze" and take him out even if it means you will die too. Rick could have done this on several occasions while he was inside the RV with Negan, but he realized that this would only mean death for the rest of the captured group. I don't see why though. This is the way Negan deals with people. In the clip from upcoming episodes you see people kneeling when he walks by. His death would be celebrated. Even by his Generals.

[JDP]

I don't see why though. This is the way Negan deals with people. In the clip from upcoming episodes you see people kneeling when he walks by. His death would be celebrated. Even by his Generals.


Apparently not, seeing as how loyal to him most of his men seem to be. Some are even willingly ready to take a bullet for him (like that Savior that Rick incorrectly thought might be Negan, who gladly assumed his identity and took a shot in the head for it.) If there was a high level of discontent among his men, we would expect many of them deserting the Saviors and joining Negan's enemies. So far we have only seen 3 people trying to leave the Saviors, one of them is dead (killed by zombies), one we don't know what happened to her, and the other one is already back in their ranks.

In any event, the big mistake in killing Negan at this point would be from the Alexandrians' point of view. If that happens, Daryl is a dead man too.

[Trin]

I thought it was a good episode.

Cons:
- There was way too much rehash and build-up. Several times I screamed in pure Monty Python style, "Get on with it!" If there had been one more flashback I was gonna Lucille myself with the TV remote.
- It was implausible. Given what Team Rick has done to the Saviors to this point I expect they know capture is a death sentence (at best). I don't see them handing over their guns without it turning into a bloodbath. I don't see them kneeling there putting up with the atrocities. They should be acting like caged animals. And had I been Rick in that RV I'd have killed Negan or died trying. It was their best and only hope of regaining the advantage in an otherwise no win situation. It all just lacked a bit of believability for me.
- Maggie should be dead. The stress of what she witnessed would've pushed her body over the edge. Miscarriage and mother's death, no saving throw.
- I thought the entire RV scene and the "get my ax" thing was goofy. I think they wanted to portray that Negan had total control of the situation but it didn't really work for me. There was just a little too much opportunity for things to go awry for Negan, or for Rick to do something unexpected.

Pros:
- All criticisms aside, the episode really only needed to do one thing to succeed - it needed to convince me how Negan could release the group (Rick and surviving members) without fear of reprisal. I think it did that. Rick was truly defeated (something that for me was VERY hard to sell). And the Saviors have a hostage as backup. Okay, I can buy it! They nailed this with good writing and good acting!
- Killing Abraham was the best move possible, strategy-wise, for Negan. He was the big military looking guy with the defiant stare. It went a long ways to neuter the group. But it wasn't demoralizing. Abraham was a military guy with few emotional ties. By itself it wasn't enough.
- Killing a second member was good for the show, both on screen and off. On screen it made sense for the story given the situation and it was good character development for Negan. Glenn was a civilian, husband and father to be. Thus it had huge emotional impact and thus emotional devastation for the group. Off screen it reinforced that the show would not pussyfoot around with fan favorites. But, again, even on top of Abraham's death it wasn't enough!
- The Rick/Carl ax/hand thing was well done. Combined with the two deaths it was the crucial breaking point. I think the idea of a parent inflicting suffering on a child had more devastation than seeing someone die.
- The Glenn death was good horror. It was quick, unexpected (to the extent it wasn't 1000% spoiled), and needless. It was well executed. The shots of his head caved in with him still trying to talk are haunting. And given how it will affect Daryl - wow, well done!
- I like Negan. I didn't expect to. He's a stupid caricature of a character. But his lines are awesome, in a cheesy B-movie kinda way. And the acting is superb. He's like the Ash of TWD. "Hail to the King, baby."

As to Glenn appearing to be killed, I am disturbed they'd resort to this stunt again. I only hope they don't wait too long before they bring him back. He's one of my favorites. As one of the few retarded individuals that thought he actually died at the dumpster, not realizing it was camera trickery and TWD douchey misdirection, I am not amused. Do they think I will fall for this again? Did they think we wouldn't notice Glenn and Abraham at the picnic table? Insulting.

[shootemindehead]

Well, that was one hell of an opener.

While I thought it was going to be either Abe or Mullet boy who'd get the bat at the end of the last series, I never figured on two home runs. I kind of reckoned that once Abe was done, that the producers would pussy out and leave it at that, so Glenn's baseball act was a genuine surprise to me. My wife, who'd seen the episode last night laughed at my reaction.

As a comic reader, it was nice to see the cross over between the two media.

And yeh, Andrew Lincoln (who's prone to a bit of overacting on the show, if I'm honest) was fantastic in this episode. He really looked like a broken man. That kind of thing is not easy to achieve. It takes some reaching to get to that level of utter despair convincingly.

On another note:

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2016/10/25/walking-dead-premiere-slammed-by-parents-television-council.html

/\

I wish people like this would just fuck off. :rolleyes:

[Wyldwraith]

Why not just *leave*?
Yes, losing Daryl will suck...but consigning everyone else to slavery sucks worse. If they don't want to fight, blow town. Neegan isn't going to piss away manpower and resources trying to track down seven or eight people with a multiple day head start. You lose one person, get everyone else still alive you give a shit about out of trouble. Problem solved. Yes, being back on the road sucks...but being the bitch of a psychopath sucks more. Who in their right mind would sit around for that?

There's a reason they call it Fight or Flight. Not Fight, Flight, Capitulate. Rational human beings don't risk their entire family group for the sake of one. If it was a post-apocalyptic environment and someone grabbed my mother...if I failed to evac the family and dithered around keeping them in a high-danger environment trying to get her back I'd best just pack it in. Even if I succeeded she'd literally beat me to death for risking my siblings, their offspring and my father/grandmother. It'd be the same if it was me...grabbed, I'd slit my wrists or bite through my tongue because no one would be coming.

Family bonds are tight, but they WILL snap when your choice is endangering EVERYONE or sacrificing the one. So they've decided they can't fight...Fair enough, there are a lot of Saviors. Then bug out. Alexandria is not the only game remaining in America. Yes, Team Rick has gotten a wee bit attached to the place and its community...But enough to endure slavery just for Daryl and what remains of the Alexandrians?

For that matter, why doesn't ANY community oppressed by such as the Saviors pick up and bail? It all comes back to Fight or Flight. National oppression like say, North Korea exists because the oppressors have the manpower, resources and sheer geographical control to keep people shackled. Four or five hundred people with a few dozen vehicles does not a thorough net of oppression make. The Saviors are relying on the Mongol Horde strategy. A thorough study of history demonstrates plenty of groups, after being bloodied by Genghis or Attila bugged out to live another day. If a population can flee nomadic raiders whose entire infrastructure is highly mobile, it's easily possible to flee a few hundred guys who have to worry about limited fuel, dividing manpower to continue collections from those who haven't fled, and keeping enough manpower available to strategically float in case of insurrection.

Yes, deciding where to go would be a challenge..but not an insurmountable one. Rick and Co. made it on the road for months, months and MORE months post-Prison. They could do so again.

Of course that won't happen because it isn't the direction the writers want to go...But, rationally speaking...What parent who very nearly had to cut off their kid's arm would keep that kid available to the madman who nearly precipitated it? If they won't just grab Neegan and show the Saviors how real torture is done (I imagine it would make an excellent bit of demoralization to haul out a blinded torso with four cauterized stumps a tongue and ears begging for death. You punctuate the show with a bit of castration and cauterization and then blow his goddamned brains out. Bullies break when you out-savage them, every time. All it takes is balling up your humanity tight and putting it away for later.)

But, this isn't HBO...so only the bad guys get to go that far. Again, leaving flight.

[MinionZombie]

I thought the entire RV scene and the "get my ax" thing was goofy. I think they wanted to portray that Negan had total control of the situation but it didn't really work for me. There was just a little too much opportunity for things to go awry for Negan, or for Rick to do something unexpected.

Did they think we wouldn't notice Glenn and Abraham at the picnic table? Insulting.

1) Rick had two choices - kill Negan, or don't kill Negan. That's it. If he killed Negan, what would he do then? He doesn't have an army at his disposal, Negan put a timer on when he would return (with a warning that if they don't return on time to kill them all), and if Rick returned with Negan dead what's he gonna do? Pop off a few shots busting out of the RV and lose several more of his family (or all of them) in the inevitable crossfire which would also kill him ... plus the Saviours would see it wasn't Negan at the wheel. Rick had absolutely no options - it was all about Negan's power trip, dangling it in front of Rick, tempting him to see if he'd be stupid enough to do it.

2) Erm, that was a fantasy - a dream of what could have been - we're inside Rick's head for a lot of this episode. We're seeing what he saw, and what he thinks could happen if he doesn't choose his actions very carefully (e.g. seeing all the others get battered).

Abraham and Glenn both have their heads smashed to smithereens - there's no chance either could survive that beyond a few minutes and on a simple biological level.

Glenn's convulsions were harrowing - his hands twitching, his final breaths etc. Glenn might have stood a chance after one single swing - if he'd had access to top tier medical treatment and years of therapy, he might come away with a semblance of who he once was ... but he was beaten repeatedly to a pulp, just like Abraham.


And yeh, Andrew Lincoln (who's prone to a bit of overacting on the show, if I'm honest) was fantastic in this episode. He really looked like a broken man. That kind of thing is not easy to achieve. It takes some reaching to get to that level of utter despair convincingly.

On another note:

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2016/10/25/walking-dead-premiere-slammed-by-parents-television-council.html

/\

I wish people like this would just fuck off. :rolleyes:

1) That moment when Rick has finally broken - that hysteria Lincoln got himself into is crazy, that breathing ... the cast all did a wonderful job of going to a very dark place. It must have been extraordinarily draining to shoot all that stuff for eight days.

2) Yeah, whining losers like that should piss right off. They seemed to have forgotten this is The Walking Dead ... did they forget about the innumerable scenes of zombies eviscerating screaming human victims? How about Rick biting the throat out of Joe the Claimer? What about the season 5 premiere with geysers of blood bursting out of throats? Or any of the other harrowing scenes we've had? Hell, the first kill in the show is a little girl zombie - blasted right in the noggin. Bicycle Girl is one of the most grotesque visions we've seen, but there have been many horrific walkers on the show.

The head-smashing was a notch or two above the usual level of violence on the show - compounded moreso by the bleak tone and sadistic attitude of Negan (e.g. the hatchet scene) - but these parents groups need to stop getting in the way of other people's grown up entertainment and do some parenting of their own snotty sprogs. Parental Guidance - the clue is in the terminology!

I wouldn't be showing TWD to kids, personally. I'm always stunned when I see some parents bring their little 5-10 year old kids to Comic-Con in costume etc (for shows like TWD or Ash vs Evil Dead in particular), because the gore can be exceptional at times. It's weird though, because when it comes to swearing and especially sex, TWD is relatively mild on the lingo and all-but-non-existant on the flesh peddling. It's the violence that takes centre stage.

...

I've seen a few people online whine about the violence (What show did they think they were watching? Did they forget they'd be seeing someone's head smashed in with a bat? Did they miss all the bat-based advertising? Are they certifiable morons?), but it's the same brand of bullshit we saw after that episode of Game of Thrones which featured Sansa's wedding night (ironically you saw very little on-screen in that instance), in that there's a lot of "waaaah, I'm not watching this anymore!" or "waaaah, it was too mean!" but they keep watching after they've calmed the fudge down.

Nicotero responded to that sort of talk and said that it's good to react strongly - you've cared for these characters (i.e. the show makers have done their job correctly). If you didn't care they've not done their job correctly. But, also, I think a lot of this sort of PTC type talk is a load of hot air - a handful of complainers shouting very loudly because they're actually in the extreme minority.

7x01 marks the "Before Negan" and "After Negan" dividing line. It had to be shocking, but 7x01 is out of the ordinary, not the standard, in terms of violence and bleakness.

[UndeadHippo]

stray observation after a re-watch:

Just before he gets pulped Abe shoots a glance and throws up the peace sign to Sasha, a final farewell.

if this lump in my throat gets any bigger Rick'll get his hand stuck in it. :/

[Wyldwraith]

Yes, killing Neegan in the RV probably would've gotten a lot of people dead.
What about when he shows up at Alexandria's gate knocking with his bat though? There seems to be this assumption of the Saviors being fanatically loyal to Neegan. Why is that? We haven't seen anything to indicate the Saviors are anymore devoted to Neegan than the minions of any of the other TWD villains were to their bosses. So far, the Governor remains the only villain with any exposition or visuals indicating actual loyalty that might persist after his demise.

Isn't it reasonable to assume his man Simon would simply shrug and try to assume full control if Neegan bought it? Or that there'd be a multiple-way struggle for power between the most dominant subordinates of Neegan's in the wake of his death? Why isn't it just as likely that the Savior who ultimately assumed control of the warband post-Neegan would be indifferent at worst to his slayer(s), if not a wee bit grateful to them for landing him control of the Saviors?

Incredibly sadistic men are NOT known for inspiring sincere loyalty and devotion in others. It's certain that Neegan has treated various Saviors in the same way he's treated Rick & Co. Why wouldn't said Saviors be nursing a hate for the man that as yet they've been unable, or lacked the nerve, to act on?

It just seems to me that a lot of people who genuinely like Neegan as a villain accept his position of power as being greater than logic would lead one to conclude it actually is. In other words, a villain who tortures and executes as a default method of gaining vassals has tortured and/or executed many others in getting to his current position. Therefore, since torture and the execution of people others care about breeds hatred, isn't it far more likely he's so far managed to keep a lid on a bunch of people who'd like to do unto him as he did unto Abe and Glenn, rather than be some charismatic dictator ruling by the acclaim of the Saviors?

If I'm wrong, what's the reasoning for believing otherwise?

[bassman]

Of course I'll have to reevaluate after some time has passed, but as of right now I'm placing this episode right next to Darabont's pilot as one of very, very few that I feel completely nail the world and tone of Kirkman's comic. Very few episodes make me feel the exact same way I did while reading the comic, but this one is now among those few...

[facestabber]

stray observation after a re-watch:

Just before he gets pulped Abe shoots a glance and throws up the peace sign to Sasha, a final farewell.

if this lump in my throat gets any bigger Rick'll get his hand stuck in it. :/

I noticed that. I feel horrible for TF.

Wylde, I agree that Rick could have killed Negan in the RV. I hope Ricks hesitation to carry out the attack was him realizing that the rest of his family would be slaughtered. And if his hesitation was solely Negans one arm rifle sling, well I'm just gonna pretend it was the prior not the latter.

Re killing Negan at the gate, I would assume that some of them will absolutely like to do that but they will contemplate this under the guise of cooperating. Negan has Daryl and that will hesitate this family. I'm guessing they will recon everything Savior before making that strike.

[MinionZombie]

As long as the Saviours have Daryl in their possession, Team Rick will bide their time.

Daryl is their family, two seasons ago Rick called him his brother - the bond is strong - so they're not going to cast aside one of their own as if they're a piece of meat or a stranger. These people have lived together, survived together, lost loved ones together, fought side by side and succeeded together.

[babomb]

Yes, killing Neegan in the RV probably would've gotten a lot of people dead.
What about when he shows up at Alexandria's gate knocking with his bat though? There seems to be this assumption of the Saviors being fanatically loyal to Neegan. Why is that? We haven't seen anything to indicate the Saviors are anymore devoted to Neegan than the minions of any of the other TWD villains were to their bosses. So far, the Governor remains the only villain with any exposition or visuals indicating actual loyalty that might persist after his demise.

Isn't it reasonable to assume his man Simon would simply shrug and try to assume full control if Neegan bought it? Or that there'd be a multiple-way struggle for power between the most dominant subordinates of Neegan's in the wake of his death? Why isn't it just as likely that the Savior who ultimately assumed control of the warband post-Neegan would be indifferent at worst to his slayer(s), if not a wee bit grateful to them for landing him control of the Saviors?

Incredibly sadistic men are NOT known for inspiring sincere loyalty and devotion in others. It's certain that Neegan has treated various Saviors in the same way he's treated Rick & Co. Why wouldn't said Saviors be nursing a hate for the man that as yet they've been unable, or lacked the nerve, to act on?

It just seems to me that a lot of people who genuinely like Neegan as a villain accept his position of power as being greater than logic would lead one to conclude it actually is. In other words, a villain who tortures and executes as a default method of gaining vassals has tortured and/or executed many others in getting to his current position. Therefore, since torture and the execution of people others care about breeds hatred, isn't it far more likely he's so far managed to keep a lid on a bunch of people who'd like to do unto him as he did unto Abe and Glenn, rather than be some charismatic dictator ruling by the acclaim of the Saviors?

If I'm wrong, what's the reasoning for believing otherwise? That's what I'm thinking too. We already know that there are Saviors that want to break free. We see the common folk kneel when he walks by. All he has is supremacy, which is fickle and fleeting by nature. I'm hoping for a proxy war between King Ezekiel and the Saviors.
Something I wonder, Neegans operation is not new. It's well established. And he's everywhere, so he says. But he wasn't at Woodbury, no sign of him at the prison, he's not terrorizing Ezekiels domain. He wasn't anywhere around Terminus despite that they had signs everywhere and Dwight and a few saviors were all over the tracks. So it's either a major plot oversight by the writers or neegan over-estimates his reach. A plot hole like that isn't something you absorb into the narrative so it's gotta be the latter.
You'd expect that Rick's group would be immediately planning the coup. Not giving a speech about how Neegan is now in charge. We'll have to wait and see.

[JDP]

That's what I'm thinking too. We already know that there are Saviors that want to break free. We see the common folk kneel when he walks by. All he has is supremacy, which is fickle and fleeting by nature. I'm hoping for a proxy war between King Ezekiel and the Saviors.

We have only seen three people trying to leave the Saviors, and one of them is already back with them. There doesn't seem to be any high level of desertion among these people. If that was so, then we should expect to see much more of these defectors all over the place. This suggests that Negan's men feel powerful and secure being part of his racket.


Something I wonder, Neegans operation is not new. It's well established. And he's everywhere, so he says. But he wasn't at Woodbury, no sign of him at the prison, he's not terrorizing Ezekiels domain. He wasn't anywhere around Terminus despite that they had signs everywhere and Dwight and a few saviors were all over the tracks. So it's either a major plot oversight by the writers or neegan over-estimates his reach. A plot hole like that isn't something you absorb into the narrative so it's gotta be the latter.
You'd expect that Rick's group would be immediately planning the coup. Not giving a speech about how Neegan is now in charge. We'll have to wait and see.

We don't know what territories was Negan "conquering" during those events. He and his men could have been elsewhere at the time those events happened and then gradually expanded their domain to the areas where Rick and the group now are. The claim that he is "everywhere" is obviously an exaggeration to intimidate others, but he is in the process of expanding his "empire" as much as possible.

[shootemindehead]

Woodbury is a good distance away at this stage though isn't it?

A bigger worry plot hole wise is the fact that he's never been to Alexandria before. :/

[JDP]

I noticed that. I feel horrible for TF.

Wylde, I agree that Rick could have killed Negan in the RV. I hope Ricks hesitation to carry out the attack was him realizing that the rest of his family would be slaughtered. And if his hesitation was solely Negans one arm rifle sling, well I'm just gonna pretend it was the prior not the latter.

Re killing Negan at the gate, I would assume that some of them will absolutely like to do that but they will contemplate this under the guise of cooperating. Negan has Daryl and that will hesitate this family. I'm guessing they will recon everything Savior before making that strike.

We can see that Rick slowly realized that killing Negan at that point would have been a big mistake. It would have ended up with the rest of the captives being executed. Notice that when Rick is fighting with the zombies outside the RV we get to see the "visions" that are going through his mind, of all members of the group getting their heads smashed with Negan's bat. Notice also that Negan told him things like "I want you to think about what happened, and what can STILL happen". The insinuation is very clear here: you kill me now and the rest of your captive friends are dead. Even before Negan shoves Rick inside the RV he also tells his men that "we'll be right back, maybe Rick will be with me, if not, well, we can just turn these people inside out". This command to his men obviously includes the following possible outcome of the situation: if Rick manages to kill me while I am with him in the RV, kill the rest of the group.

This cockiness and excessive confidence in the power over others that having hostages can give you, by the way, sooner or later could be Negan's mistake. It's what makes this guy let his guard down. Apparently he even shows up in person at Alexandria to collect his "tribute" (that's what those brief sneak peeks of this season seem to suggest.) Showing up at your enemy's very doorstep? This is playing with fire here. The best thing the Alexandrians could do if they don't want to sacrifice Daryl is set a trap to capture Negan alive and use him and whatever other Saviors they manage to capture along with him as hostages themselves. Then negotiate an exchange of hostages to get Daryl back.

[sandrock74]

Woodbury and the prison are down in Georgia. Negan and Alexandria ( and the Hilltop, the Kingdom, etc.) are in Virginia, outside of Washington DC. Rick and the gang did LOTS of walking along the train tracks! Like, a couple of states worth of walking.

Despite Negan's boasts, his level of power doesn't extend over several states. At best, just the region he is in...and even that is obviously not absolute, since they've only just discovered Alexandria and don't seemingly know of the Kingdom yet.

The easy thing to do would be to just pack up and move away, somewhere beyond the sphere of influence of Negan. However, leaving people like him unchecked is a bad idea! He needs to be nipped in the bud and have his operation broken up before it could expand too much.

[MinionZombie]

Woodbury and the prison are down in Georgia. Negan and Alexandria ( and the Hilltop, the Kingdom, etc.) are in Virginia, outside of Washington DC. Rick and the gang did LOTS of walking along the train tracks! Like, a couple of states worth of walking.

Despite Negan's boasts, his level of power doesn't extend over several states. At best, just the region he is in...and even that is obviously not absolute, since they've only just discovered Alexandria and don't seemingly know of the Kingdom yet.

The easy thing to do would be to just pack up and move away, somewhere beyond the sphere of influence of Negan. However, leaving people like him unchecked is a bad idea! He needs to be nipped in the bud and have his operation broken up before it could expand too much.

1) Yep - different states - they still film the show in the same state, but the story is set in another state entirely.

The Wolves were 50 miles or thereabouts away from Alexandria - so had absolutely no idea about the place until Aaron accidentally left his pack there at the arse end of season 5. Similarly, there's a good distance between some of these settlements.

Mild Comics Spoilers, if you can even call it a spoiler.
In the comics the journeys between these communities is usually taken by horse, and the journey tends to last for several hours or even from dawn to dusk.

Point being, there's a fair amount of distance between these locations, and from your own stronghold you've got 360 degrees of world out there to explore.

2) Easy thing? It wouldn't be easy at all - we saw just how hellishly hard it was out there for Rick and the gang between Season 2 and 3, then again after the fall of the prison, and then again in season 5 before Aaron found them. They were practically dead at that point. Likewise there'll be plenty of people in Alexandria who wouldn't want to go at all - are you going to, in all good conscience, leave them to deal with it? Team Rick might not be super tight with them, but they count them as friends now after the weeks/few months they have lived in Alexandria. Indeed, there's some there that have never been beyond their walls, so they'd be useless out there.

Plus - what's to say you wouldn't encounter other groups just as bad, if not worse, than Negan's? Better to lay down roots, fortify, and deal with threats appropriately as-and-when they come. They're all going to have to take a bite out of the giant shit sandwich they've all been presented with, but turning tail ain't an option. Rick & Co said themselves, when they turned up at Alexandria - they'd almost been out there too long when they were found by Aaron.

If there's nothing worth fighting for, what's the point in continuing to live in that hellish world?

[babomb]

1) If there's nothing worth fighting for, what's the point in continuing to live in that hellish world?You really don't have another option. Unless someone is the type that can off themselves. If anyone in the group was that type they wouldn't have made it this far though.

[Wyldwraith]

That's what I'm saying:
You capture Neegan at the gates, and you cut bits off him every hour until they bring you Daryl. They give you Daryl, then you go on ahead with the cutting. You don't negotiate, you demand. The Saviors would panic watching you toss fingers off Alexandria's wall. This whole "Neegan's in charge" thing is ABSURD! Yes, I get Rick buckling DURING the whole Cut Carl's Arm Off thing. But people routinely bounce back from much worse. A man whose butchered his enemies without remorse isn't...shouldn't be, so easily cowed.

It should be over almost before it began. A blip of tragedy that ends with a dramatic overestimation of his ability to control others by another in a long-line of would-be Post Apocalyptic Warlords. I literally could not believe my eyes when I saw that scene with Neegan showing up at the gate. I was like "Fuck me, he just put himself within reach of people who hate him."

I mean you can't have it both ways. Either A) The Saviors are devoted enough to Neegan to react punitively to someone who killed him...in which case they're devoted enough to be held at bay by the threat of his murder by the people who are tossing bits of him to the Saviors until the Saviors meet their demands...or B) The Saviors AREN'T devoted to Neegan, in which case you can simply kill him at the gate and the Saviors will shrug and go on with things.

Rick and Co. fucked up by going beyond their walls without extensive recon of their target. They paid for it...they should've learned. The reason I have so much trouble with all this capitulation is its such a terrible, unrealistic position in an Apocalypse. If sentiment will cloud your judgment enough to sacrifice the many for the one, do your loved ones a mercy and shoot them all now, because your sentiment WILL lead them to a much worse end.

Ironically, Daryl is the very one that'd be telling Rick as much if he wasn't in a cage. Daryl would slap Rick silly for giving in to Neegan just to save Daryl's skin.

FURTHERMORE: Even obeying Neegan for now is just a slow slide until the execution of Rick and Co. Neegan's demands are all about getting others to gather tribute for him. There is only so much to be salvaged a reasonable distance to travel from Alexandria. What do you think Neegan will do when the month INEVITABLY comes that Rick and Co. can't provide a satisfactory amount of scavenged goods for Neegan and the Saviors? Neegan won't go "Hmm, I understand salvaged goods have gotten too difficult to find. I guess I'll give you and yours a pass on providing for me and mine from now on." He'll assume they're holding out on him and start killing.

So obedience leads to torture and death. That only leaves fight or flight. How is this not beyond obvious? Trying to spring Daryl is a lost cause. Bolt, or grab Neegan and start making demands. Pick one and go.

Edit: And if you don't like that plan as-is: How about this? Torture the infrastructure info on the Saviors out of Neegan, and then tell his loyalists to start killing their own or Neegan gets the axe. It won't fly with the Saviors, but it'll cause more discord. The absence of police and penal institutions offers so many practical ways of dealing with one's adversaries so long as you have the stomach to leave people in bloody tatters.

[kidgloves]

Very satisfied with the deaths although I can't help but think how good last seasons finale would have been had it ended like this. Was about to throw a strop after Abe got it but when Negan twatted Glen out of the blue I punched the air.
JDM is absolutely killing it as Negan. Fantastic

[facestabber]

That's what I'm saying:
You capture Neegan at the gates, and you cut bits off him every hour until they bring you Daryl. They give you Daryl, then you go on ahead with the cutting. You don't negotiate, you demand. The Saviors would panic watching you toss fingers off Alexandria's wall. This whole "Neegan's in charge" thing is ABSURD! Yes, I get Rick buckling DURING the whole Cut Carl's Arm Off thing. But people routinely bounce back from much worse. A man whose butchered his enemies without remorse isn't...shouldn't be, so easily cowed.

It should be over almost before it began. A blip of tragedy that ends with a dramatic overestimation of his ability to control others by another in a long-line of would-be Post Apocalyptic Warlords. I literally could not believe my eyes when I saw that scene with Neegan showing up at the gate. I was like "Fuck me, he just put himself within reach of people who hate him."

I mean you can't have it both ways. Either A) The Saviors are devoted enough to Neegan to react punitively to someone who killed him...in which case they're devoted enough to be held at bay by the threat of his murder by the people who are tossing bits of him to the Saviors until the Saviors meet their demands...or B) The Saviors AREN'T devoted to Neegan, in which case you can simply kill him at the gate and the Saviors will shrug and go on with things.

Rick and Co. fucked up by going beyond their walls without extensive recon of their target. They paid for it...they should've learned. The reason I have so much trouble with all this capitulation is its such a terrible, unrealistic position in an Apocalypse. If sentiment will cloud your judgment enough to sacrifice the many for the one, do your loved ones a mercy and shoot them all now, because your sentiment WILL lead them to a much worse end.

Ironically, Daryl is the very one that'd be telling Rick as much if he wasn't in a cage. Daryl would slap Rick silly for giving in to Neegan just to save Daryl's skin.

FURTHERMORE: Even obeying Neegan for now is just a slow slide until the execution of Rick and Co. Neegan's demands are all about getting others to gather tribute for him. There is only so much to be salvaged a reasonable distance to travel from Alexandria. What do you think Neegan will do when the month INEVITABLY comes that Rick and Co. can't provide a satisfactory amount of scavenged goods for Neegan and the Saviors? Neegan won't go "Hmm, I understand salvaged goods have gotten too difficult to find. I guess I'll give you and yours a pass on providing for me and mine from now on." He'll assume they're holding out on him and start killing.

So obedience leads to torture and death. That only leaves fight or flight. How is this not beyond obvious? Trying to spring Daryl is a lost cause. Bolt, or grab Neegan and start making demands. Pick one and go.

Edit: And if you don't like that plan as-is: How about this? Torture the infrastructure info on the Saviors out of Neegan, and then tell his loyalists to start killing their own or Neegan gets the axe. It won't fly with the Saviors, but it'll cause more discord. The absence of police and penal institutions offers so many practical ways of dealing with one's adversaries so long as you have the stomach to leave people in bloody tatters.

Negan won't be by himself. I don't think his capture this early will be possible. The Saviors have the numbers and firepower to wreck Alexandria. At this point why not create the illusion to Negan that you are completely following Negans way. This was quick response as I only read first paragraph....dad duties.

[shootemindehead]

Very satisfied with the deaths although I can't help but think how good last seasons finale would have been had it ended like this. Was about to throw a strop after Abe got it but when Negan twatted Glen out of the blue I punched the air.
JDM is absolutely killing it as Negan. Fantastic

Before I saw the episode and at the end of the last series I would have said the same thing. but, now, I'm glad that AMC dicked us about with that S6 ending. Because the S7 opener was great.

[MinionZombie]

Before I saw the episode and at the end of the last series I would have said the same thing. but, now, I'm glad that AMC dicked us about with that S6 ending. Because the S7 opener was great.

Agreed.

At the time I was pissed off, but it's not like a major show hasn't done a major cliffhanger between seasons before - it's not unprecedented, we're just spoiled as viewers these days with so much instant gratification as a result of binge-viewing culture.

Seeing how the structure of this first episode's story was played out it made total sense why it was broken up that way, and it did create a real event out of the premiere, which was nice to have, especially this far into the show's lifespan.

About the most you could have done would to have killed Abraham in 6x16 and then killed Glenn in 7x01 ... however, that would create as many (if not more) problems than it would potentially 'solve' (if you could even argue the way it was done was truly problematic - my opinion has changed compared to six months ago when I was all pissed off, lol). If they'd done it this other way you'd sap a lot (or all) of the anticipation of the season 7 premiere, and in-turn would probably suck a bit of the gut punch of Glenn's death. It might have thrown people off the scent, but it would have also screwed around with the pacing of this episode and compromised the season opening. Considering the whole 'before Negan/after Negan' approach to this episode, doing it this way definitely makes the most sense when all is said and done. :)

[JDP]

Negan won't be by himself. I don't think his capture this early will be possible. The Saviors have the numbers and firepower to wreck Alexandria. At this point why not create the illusion to Negan that you are completely following Negans way. This was quick response as I only read first paragraph....dad duties.

That depends on how many men Negan brings with him whenever he tries to collect his "tribute" from the people he oppresses. If he brings a whole army each time, then the capture is going to be complicated to pull since the Alexandrians are outnumbered, but if he only brings a handful of his men then it is perfectly possible for the Alexandrians to trap this guy within Alexandria. That place has basically been turned into a fortress, not easy to get in or out without guards spotting you. His men out there can scream and shout all they want, now their very own leader and whoever else is captured alongside him have guns to their heads ready to be fired. It is time to negotiate getting Daryl back or your leader and his captured henchmen bite the dust, Mr. Saviors.

PS: Wyldwraith's tactic of periodically cutting pieces of the captured Saviors and tossing them out the walls might not work because the enemy still has Daryl in their power. There is no telling if this bunch of cruel thugs won't do the exact same thing to Daryl as retaliation. It is much better to negotiate a fair exchange of hostages: you give us Daryl intact, and you get your men intact too. After that happens, then the Alexandrians either move to greener pastures where Negan's mafia-style racket has not reached yet or they better get ready for a very imminent all out war with the Saviors, but at least now the Saviors won't have a hostage to keep them "in line". Now the Alexandrians can be as brutal and lethal as they want to be with their enemies.

[babomb]

If Neegan offers protection to the common folk in his territories, and delivers on it, that's a tough situation. Alexandria would definitely be seen as an external threat if they tried anything on Neegan, and we're back to the same situation as season 3 when the Gov had his people thinking the group were terrorists. There's been no indication of this as of yet though. It seems like he rules with an iron fist and there's little-to-no benefit to those he rules over.

[MinionZombie]

Plus, looking at Team Rick from The Saviours POV - Team Rick snuck into their compound and slaughtered a bunch of them, then they killed more when Carol and Maggie (?) got kidnapped, and then Carol killed some more when she ran away, and Daryl blew a bunch of them up with an RPG, and a few others got snuffed out besides ... ... so if that's not a chance to band together and say "FUDGE YOU, BUDDY!" as a group towards a common threat, I don't know what else is.

Negan taking it to Team Rick in such an organised way, if anything, strengthened his position as a leader out for revenge for the murder of his own people.

Their methods and such are questionable, but we have seen different types of people - most/all of them compromised one way or another, but so are 99.9% of people living in the world of TWD.

[facestabber]

That depends on how many men Negan brings with him whenever he tries to collect his "tribute" from the people he oppresses. If he brings a whole army each time, then the capture is going to be complicated to pull since the Alexandrians are outnumbered, but if he only brings a handful of his men then it is perfectly possible for the Alexandrians to trap this guy within Alexandria. That place has basically been turned into a fortress, not easy to get in or out without guards spotting you. His men out there can scream and shout all they want, now their very own leader and whoever else is captured alongside him have guns to their heads ready to be fired. It is time to negotiate getting Daryl back or your leader and his captured henchmen bite the dust, Mr. Saviors.

PS: Wyldwraith's tactic of periodically cutting pieces of the captured Saviors and tossing them out the walls might not work because the enemy still has Daryl in their power. There is no telling if this bunch of cruel thugs won't do the exact same thing to Daryl as retaliation. It is much better to negotiate a fair exchange of hostages: you give us Daryl intact, and you get your men intact too. After that happens, then the Alexandrians either move to greener pastures where Negan's mafia-style racket has not reached yet or they better get ready for a very imminent all out war with the Saviors, but at least now the Saviors won't have a hostage to keep them "in line". Now the Alexandrians can be as brutal and lethal as they want to be with their enemies.

I agree his numbers make the difference in action. My gut says TF backs off a bit as the weight of loss is too fresh. Let's face it folks Team Rick won't lay down for long. They will bring a fight I just think they will be more calculated and prepared this round.

[Wyldwraith]

Neegan was very clearly at the gate. Even if every Savior he has was ringing Alexandria you could draw on him and if he moves, he dies. As I said before, you can't have it both ways. Neegan is currently riding on the scare he just put into them. He's looking to reinforce that by demonstrating he can walk into their stronghold and out again with impunity. Rick is absolutely going to let him do just that because the writers are entranced with their villain. Not disputing that. Just saying that in reality a person who butchers people someone cared for doesn't survive placing himself in a position where said people can lash out at him. In essence, Neegan would half-undo his own work by showing up like that.

Here's something else to consider: The more inevitable Neegan's rule seems..the more convinced people became they aren't getting out of this situation without a bloodbath, the more easily a violent solution to the problem, even one that comes with potentially horrifying consequences, would come to them. As I said before: Look at how stunned Rick was to find that stash at the building with Sorghum on the door. Alexandria was already scavenging before Rick & Co. came along.

Anyone who has bothered to consider the problem would quickly realize the goods available to be scavenged in a widening radius surrounding Alexandria will be RAPIDLY depleted if they have to find enough both for themselves and to satisfy the Saviors. A rational person wouldn't allow the clock to tick down on them, knowing a mass-punitive action was coming WHEN, not if, they fail to deliver tribute. They'd be plotting their way out of the situation from jump one. I literally cringe every time I see that preview of Lincoln saying Neegan's in charge. Shit like that is why I'm following the show by plot synopsis for the immediate future.

It all comes down to what people are willing to endure for the sake of one person they care about. I could see Neegan's hostage-taking being significantly restrictive and compelling if Neegan had loaded up everyone who was on their knees but Rick and sent Rick on back to mind the store with the rest of the Alexandrian civilians, but instead the writers will inflate the amount of goods available in the world to collect to allow the subjugation of Alexandria to play out for this season. It's fairly easy to see where they're going with this. Alexandria under Neegan's bootheel for Season 7, while they switch PoVs now and then to Carol/Morgan and the others in Ezekiel's domain. To me it's an uninteresting holding pattern to wait out. It's all by-fiat plot mechanics, unsupported by reason.

[Trin]

We can speculate on whether Rick should or should not have taken a shot at killing Negan in the RV, but my position remains I would've. And it has nothing to do with logic or strategy or minimizing deaths. In his position, knowing how many of them we've slaughtered, I'm scared sh*tless at being captured. I figure I'm already a dead man, and so is everyone that came with me. I have next to zero options to save myself or any of them. I'm enraged and running on anxiety, fear and adrenaline. AKA, I have a huge bias for action.

And who knows what happens if Rick drives back in the RV and dumps Negan's body out onto the ground? The entire situation is up in the air at that point. The Saviors may act stunned/paralyzed, they may start shooting Team Rick and the RV, or they may start a fire-fight amongst themselves. It's just impossible to predict. I'm pretty sure Negan's final orders wouldn't matter. And I'm pretty sure that without Negan they'd not act quickly or organized. I figure that with their leader's dead body, an assault rifle pointed at them, and a reasonable bit of cover within the RV I have at least a chance of backing them down.

I'm not saying it ends well. But at least my fate is in my hands and not that of a psycho.

[MinionZombie]

I'm not saying it ends well. But at least my fate is in my hands and not that of a psycho.

Yours and everyone else's that you're deciding for them with such a move. :rockbrow:

A mere punch, lashed out in anger, resulted in Glenn's death.

Even if The Saviours eventually were able to lead themselves, in the moment of losing their leader - who has given them shelter and supplies and community (albeit a messed up one that they've chosen to remain a part of) - they would slaughter Team Rick in knee jerk retaliation. Just one person needs to start shooting and others will join in. Hell, it could just be one single person going down the line popping off shots. If any of Team Rick tried to run they'd get gunned down as well.

Killing Negan at this point in time, when you're in such a precarious position, would be foolish in the extreme in my view.

[JDP]

We can speculate on whether Rick should or should not have taken a shot at killing Negan in the RV, but my position remains I would've. And it has nothing to do with logic or strategy or minimizing deaths. In his position, knowing how many of them we've slaughtered, I'm scared sh*tless at being captured. I figure I'm already a dead man, and so is everyone that came with me. I have next to zero options to save myself or any of them. I'm enraged and running on anxiety, fear and adrenaline. AKA, I have a huge bias for action.

And who knows what happens if Rick drives back in the RV and dumps Negan's body out onto the ground? The entire situation is up in the air at that point. The Saviors may act stunned/paralyzed, they may start shooting Team Rick and the RV, or they may start a fire-fight amongst themselves. It's just impossible to predict. I'm pretty sure Negan's final orders wouldn't matter. And I'm pretty sure that without Negan they'd not act quickly or organized. I figure that with their leader's dead body, an assault rifle pointed at them, and a reasonable bit of cover within the RV I have at least a chance of backing them down.

I'm not saying it ends well. But at least my fate is in my hands and not that of a psycho.

The most likely outcome of such a decision is that Negan's next in command henchmen would take over leadership of the group and continue their very profitable racket. Pretty much nothing would change. You and your companions would still be dead meat, because after seeing that you dispatched Negan despite the threat of killing the hostages they sure as heck are not going to give you or anyone else from your group a chance to do the same to them. You no longer would be useful to these people, you are obviously not docile enough to be "tamed" into basically being their obedient servant, so they might as well get rid of you before you cause any more trouble for them.

[shootemindehead]

Plus, looking at Team Rick from The Saviours POV - Team Rick snuck into their compound and slaughtered a bunch of them, then they killed more when Carol and Maggie (?) got kidnapped, and then Carol killed some more when she ran away, and Daryl blew a bunch of them up with an RPG, and a few others got snuffed out besides ... ... so if that's not a chance to band together and say "FUDGE YOU, BUDDY!" as a group towards a common threat, I don't know what else is.

Negan taking it to Team Rick in such an organised way, if anything, strengthened his position as a leader out for revenge for the murder of his own people.

Their methods and such are questionable, but we have seen different types of people - most/all of them compromised one way or another, but so are 99.9% of people living in the world of TWD.

Yeah. As I said somewhere earlier, to Negan's group (or at least the neutrals therein) Rick and Co. are a bunch of murdering psychos, who sneak into compounds in the night and kill willy nilly. Negan (off camera) has probably used that exercise to the fullest as a propaganda tool and galvanised support for his dubious methods.

In a situation that's presented in this particular world of the Living Dead, "us or them" would be very strong and wouldn't need that much stoking to get some pretty fiery support.

We don't know the make up of Negan's group yet to any real degree. The three girls Carol and Mags encountered didn't seem to be that bad. They're just rougher around the edges by the circumstances that they're faced. There's possibly more like them where the Saviours are stationed. But, for sure, there are some real unsavory saviours knocking around too. Even so, it would be hard for anyone to see reason with Rick's group after their stunt at the outpost.

Com'on Sunday! FFS!!!

- - - Updated - - -


We can speculate on whether Rick should or should not have taken a shot at killing Negan in the RV, but my position remains I would've.

There's a 99% chance that such a move gets everyone killed. Your son, your infant daughter, your mates and all the people back in Alexandria.

Sometimes, wait and see is actually the best option. Bide the time, hold out for a better opportunity for a better outcome.

- - - Updated - - -


The most likely outcome of such a decision is that Negan's next in command henchmen would take over leadership of the group and continue their very profitable racket. Pretty much nothing would change.

That would be my take on it too.

Trevor from GTA5 looks ready to step in and fill Negan's shoes quite readily.

Killing Negan at that juncture simply changes heads and everyone you've been surviving with is dead.