TWD 7x02 "The Well" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN*

[MinionZombie]

Please keep all talk of episode 7x02 "The Well" specifically inside this thread.

If you have a theory for a following episode, please use the "spoiler tags" (visit the HPOTD FAQ to find out how to use them if you don't already know).

Similarly, if you're going to discuss plot points from the comic book, please use "spoiler tags" - not everyone is up-to-date on them, and some people don't read them at all.

Enjoy!

Directed by: Greg Nicotero
Written by: Matthew Negrete

Getting this one up nice and early so I don't forget this time around! :p

[Buzzbomb]

What with Rick & Co. now supplying the Saviours with food... I'm hoping they hit upon a large stash of laxatives, or perhaps something that will cause large scale sickness in the Saviour camp!

[MinionZombie]

What with Rick & Co. now supplying the Saviours with food... I'm hoping they hit upon a large stash of laxatives, or perhaps something that will cause large scale sickness in the Saviour camp!

:lol::lol::lol:

They could lace some whiskey with Ex-Lax and some food with Immodium and get their digestion all messed up so they don't know whether they're coming or going ... then Team Rick could sneak into their compound and kill them all on the toilet. :elol:

[AcesandEights]

Well, after being disappointed by them missing a golden opportunity to get rid of boring ol' Daryl last week, I was pleasantly surprised we didn't have to spend all (or even any!) of tonight watching the group whinge, cry and grapple with their losses.

So I got that going for me.

[Moon Knight]

I like Ezekiel already. :)

[MinionZombie]

They handled this one quite well, I think.

The whole King Ezekiel - with a ruddy tiger by his side - is an out there concept. I'm glad they undercut all the bluster towards the end with that big scene between him and Carol, and it grounded his whole shtick quite well. A zoo keeper and community theatre player - using what he's got to get by.

It was also nice to have a breather after last week's harrowing events, they were wise to do that and have a bit of levity in there and deal with some leftover business from the end of season 6 with Carol and Morgan. So, yeah, I think they did a good job with this episode.

Some very creepy walker designs in this one (e.g. the one covered in cobwebs), and the walker that got the front of its head sliced off was pretty cool, too. I enjoyed the herding of the pigs as well - just a little bit of survivalist business sprinkled in now and then is good.

Next week's preview:
Looks like we'll probably get another episode that just sticks to one area - the Saviour's hangout - and deal with Daryl's incarceration and what they do with him. Probably won't be a favourite episode for any of the folks who whinge about Daryl ... but personally I'm looking forward to it. We should get a good scene or two between Reedus and JDM, as well.

[JDP]

What with Rick & Co. now supplying the Saviours with food... I'm hoping they hit upon a large stash of laxatives, or perhaps something that will cause large scale sickness in the Saviour camp!

It looks like the Kingdomers are way ahead in this game: they are already trying germ warfare on the Saviors with those zombie-fed pigs they give them as "tribute" :elol: If any of the diseases the zombies carry are passed through to the pigs, and from the pig meat to the humans that consume it, then this could turn out to be a useful weapon to strike back at the Saviors.

[facestabber]

Best part of the show was the connection between Morgan and Carol. I found it hysterical when Morgan wheeled her away from King E and he knew he had a scolding coming from her.

[Moon Knight]

Best part of the show was the connection between Morgan and Carol. I found it hysterical when Morgan wheeled her away from King E and he knew he had a scolding coming from her.

Lol yeah that was great.

- - - Updated - - -


They handled this one quite well, I think.

The whole King Ezekiel - with a ruddy tiger by his side - is an out there concept. I'm glad they undercut all the bluster towards the end with that big scene between him and Carol, and it grounded his whole shtick quite well. A zoo keeper and community theatre player - using what he's got to get by.

It was also nice to have a breather after last week's harrowing events, they were wise to do that and have a bit of levity in there and deal with some leftover business from the end of season 6 with Carol and Morgan. So, yeah, I think they did a good job with this episode.

Some very creepy walker designs in this one (e.g. the one covered in cobwebs), and the walker that got the front of its head sliced off was pretty cool, too. I enjoyed the herding of the pigs as well - just a little bit of survivalist business sprinkled in now and then is good.

Next week's preview:
Looks like we'll probably get another episode that just sticks to one area - the Saviour's hangout - and deal with Daryl's incarceration and what they do with him. Probably won't be a favourite episode for any of the folks who whinge about Daryl ... but personally I'm looking forward to it. We should get a good scene or two between Reedus and JDM, as well.

You're right, they handled him and the Kingdom quite well. Giving away his origin pretty early was also a smart move.

Next week looks really interesting!

[facestabber]

Lol yeah that was great.

- - - Updated - - -



You're right, they handled him and the Kingdom quite well. Giving away his origin pretty early was also a smart move.

Next week looks really interesting!

As Minion said, the origin reveal was the right thing to do. Because I was watching and probably making faces like Carol. A king with antics and tongue from a long ago era seemed goofy. Goofy as it was I would have stayed in the Kingdom as movies and food would be a better way to spend a shortened lifetime than in misery.

[MinionZombie]

Regarding germ warfare with the pigs ... it'll be interesting to see how this plays out. Will it result in people dying and turning? Will it only affect some? Will it just give them a bit of bangalore belly? It's a tricky one, thinking about it, because - for example - Team Rick ate wild dogs. They suffered no ill effects - but surely those dogs would have eaten a zombie or two in their time?

...

TWD 7x02 Memes:

http://deadshed.blogspot.co.uk/2016/10/shiva-edition-walking-dead-7x02-memes.html

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-t6LzPQmGjwQ/WBdz6URpKdI/AAAAAAAAE8s/TOBvKlz6af4OkCBhAXMkC4YZzk-i8llbwCLcB/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_7_Meme_Carol_Ezekiel_Shiva _Don%2527t_Know_Going_On_Most_Wonderful_Way_7x02_D eadShed.jpg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3u89bEY2HHU/WBd3dor0PpI/AAAAAAAAE88/IZeED1tHDR8WiZ2dBN3fxIiHh9kJK6XIACLcB/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_7_Meme_Carol_Ezekiel_Shiva _Knock_Knock_Well_That_Escalated_Quickly_7x02_Dead Shed.png

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-JnZPLc0lQMI/WBdz5OiXyfI/AAAAAAAAE8o/_Zv1-1bFJuAHwXnqaS74ae6nqr9W4qaRwCEw/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_7_Meme_Carol_Ezekiel_Shiva _Knock_Knock_Thereisno_No_Way_Expecting_Tiger_Door _7x02_DeadShed.jpg




Goofy as it was I would have stayed in the Kingdom as movies and food would be a better way to spend a shortened lifetime than in misery.

Movie night alone would have been chilling at the Kingdom. :D

[JDP]

Regarding germ warfare with the pigs ... it'll be interesting to see how this plays out. Will it result in people dying and turning? Will it only affect some? Will it just give them a bit of bangalore belly? It's a tricky one, thinking about it, because - for example - Team Rick ate wild dogs. They suffered no ill effects - but surely those dogs would have eaten a zombie or two in their time?

We don't know for sure if those dogs ate any zombies, but since very early on the show has been teasing us with the general concept of "tainted meat" possibly not fit for human consumption for fear that something bad may happen to those who dare take the risk. Remember when we first meet Daryl how he gets pissed off at the zombie that was eating the deer he was hunting? He briefly entertains the idea of just cutting off the area of the deer's body that the zombie had been munching, but then decides it is not worth the risk. Later on the same issue came to the surface when the Terminus cannibals get scared that they have been eating "tainted meat" after Bob reveals that he has been bitten by a zombie. Gareth tries to calm them down by saying that they had thoroughly cooked Bob's flesh and therefore they will be alright. Unfortunately, none of the Terminus people lived long enough after that to see whether they would have caught some sort of infection or disease because of it. So the show has remained ambiguous about this possibility.

[sandrock74]

I had assumed the purpose of feeding the pigs (or were the boars?) the zombies was as a sort of F you to the Saviors. It costs the Kingdom nothing as far as feeding them, which is beneficial for them. If it happens to make the Saviors sick in the process, that's awesome.

Personally, if I were the Saviors, I'd be VERY wary of accepting food from any group I was oppressing and/or constantly talking down to and threatening.

[rongravy]

I had assumed the purpose of feeding the pigs (or were the boars?) the zombies was as a sort of F you to the Saviors. It costs the Kingdom nothing as far as feeding them, which is beneficial for them. If it happens to make the Saviors sick in the process, that's awesome.

Personally, if I were the Saviors, I'd be VERY wary of accepting food from any group I was oppressing and/or constantly talking down to and threatening.

I guess maybe it'd be a good idea for Negan, like the kings of old, to procure a "royal taster" from each settlement he receives tribute from. This would ensure, hopefully, no hanky panky on their part.

[shootemindehead]

Yeh, Negan needs one of these lads.

gA4pbt38y34

Decent episode over all, but I'm getting a bit fed up with Carol's runaway Rhonda act. Was a bit rolleyes with Ezekiel at the start, but the decision to have him fess up to Carol was a very wise one and after the episode ended, came to the conclusion that the actor playing the part had pulled off what was one of the most difficult to convince characters from the comic.

Some CGI on the tiger too, although it's obviously CGI. That would have been a difficult enough job.

[MinionZombie]

I thought Shiva looked pretty good. From Talking Dead it seems that they did a combination of CGI and practical effects (they've got a fancy tiger puppet that they can use), and I wonder if there's real footage of a tiger (against a green screen, say) that has been inserted digitally into certain scenes ... so a combination of things ... but I think it worked quite well. I loved that scene at the door to Carol's new home - hey, it's me and my tiger popping by with some fruit as a house warming gift. :lol:

I think Ezekiel's got the hots for Carol. That whole "don't bullshit a bullshitter" scene showed that he'd found a bit of a kindred spirit, I feel.

Comics Spoiler regarding Ezekiel's love life:
Seeing as Rick is with Michonne now on the TV show, that means they can't have Ezekiel with Michonne like in the comics, but Carol never made it anywhere near this far in the comics so we've got a new opportunity here to tweak the existing story.

Oh - and Jerry rocked. It's nice to have a cheery soul in the mix. :D

[Moon Knight]

Shiva looked better than I would have thought. The true test is if they actually have her get physical with walkers or humans. Ezekiel and Shiva both look great in the show.

Someone had mentioned earlier how they were tired of Carol's runaway theme and I agree. It's time they dead that and having her bond with Ezekiel seems to be the remedy for that. "You can go but don't go." Something along those lines, was a good attempt by the King to get through to Carol, and hey, it worked lol. As you can see in that very cool ending when Zeke and Shiva show up with fruit in hand.

Jerry. Haha.

[Neil]

Well, what a perfect episode given last weeks depressing head mash fest!

The final scene with Carol wondering who was at the door, and then hearing a tiger roar... Classic!

[shootemindehead]

I think they had to go that way for this episode. You couldn't have 45 minutes of Rick and co whinging back in Alexandria and theh running time is just too limited to do scenes there and with Morgan and Carol at the Kingdom. Plus, that episode needed the reveal of Zeke being a con artist, otherwise it just wouldn't have worked for too many people.

Next week, we'll probably get a montage of whaaaa in Alexandria and then get on with it.

[MinionZombie]

As to the 'runaway Carol act' ... it wasn't running for that long, though. It was basically played out for the most part in Season 6B.

In season four she was ousted by Rick, but she was soon back in the arms of the group. From then on she was all in there. It wasn't until Season 6 that things started to go a bit pear shaped, and even then it was a gradual thing - and all the better for it, too - she saw what her life was once like (barring the abusive husband, but you know, all the homemaker stuff and normal life and community stuff), and what she'd had to do to get there. The creeping doubt sets in - has she gone too far? Is there anything of her left? Was the whole Alexandria life an act for her? Combined with the battle with Morgan it all came to a head. She made her move in the season six finale and we've had it resolved in her first episode back. Just because there's a six month gap in-between episodes, doesn't mean it was dragged out. :rockbrow:

So it wasn't a subplot that was running for that long, guys. But it was good for them to get it sorted by the end of this episode, mind.

Likewise revealing Ezekiel's backstory and grounding his character straight away. He's such an out there character that leaving a week (or more, as I can't imagine we'll be seeing much - or any - of them Kingdom next week) for audiences to think "well, he's a bit silly, isn't it?" would have been the wrong way to go. I did enjoy the Morgan/Carol interplay regarding Ezekiel - before and afterwards. :D

[shootemindehead]

It's not the length, but the silliness of the idea that's the problem. Where the bloody hell does she think she's running to?

As for Ezekiel, yeh, the interwebzone would have been in meltdown if that was left without the "I'm a bullshitter" coda.

[MinionZombie]

It's not the length, but the silliness of the idea that's the problem. Where the bloody hell does she think she's running to?

Well she probably sees herself as a bit of a monster now. She sees how (relatively) easily - and honestly - the others in the group have returned to a normal suburban lifestyle (albeit in the zombie apocalypse and in a walled-off community), but she feels a fraud with her Susie homemaker act. It was true once upon a time, but that part of her is lost and what's left? A killer, a hardened survivor, and it's all become too much. It would be daft to think that she wouldn't eventually crumble under the weight of that now that she doesn't have to do those things that she did in order to survive in far more hellish conditions.

She just wants to be alone and retreat, she feels disconnected and lost. Getting away is as much about finding something as it is about running away, for Carol.

[facestabber]

Go Cubs go!!! TWD rules too

[Moon Knight]

Carol had been through some tough crap including murdering children. Her mindset and intentions no mater how silly or questionable they can be, will never make sense because we haven't been in those shoes.

[JDP]

Carol had been through some tough crap including murdering children. Her mindset and intentions no mater how silly or questionable they can be, will never make sense because we haven't been in those shoes.

It looks to me that she is being unnecessarily tough on herself. She has been a victim of circumstances just like everyone else, and she did what it had to be done in order for her and her group to survive. There should be no guilt on her part. All she has done so far -except this current weird guilt trip- has been the right thing to do.

[Moon Knight]

It looks to me that she is being unnecessarily tough on herself. She has been a victim of circumstances just like everyone else, and she did what it had to be done in order for her and her group to survive. There should be no guilt on her part. All she has done so far -except this current weird guilt trip- has been the right thing to do.

Yeah I agree on that. I just think that not everyone takes it the same way.

[MinionZombie]

I just think that not everyone takes it the same way.

Indeed.

It's very easy, having not experienced the things Carol has experienced - nor living for a single second in a zombie apocalypse ourselves (from a position of 20/20 hindsight analysis, sensory disconnection, and objectivity) - to say "oh, buck up, kiddo". Carol's had to do things that none of the others have had to do (or see). The Lizzie situation alone is messed up in the extreme - Carol had to witness her failure to sort Lizzie out (but the kid was rotten, so it wasn't Carol's fault - but she doesn't see it that was, especially not as she was considering Lizzie (and Micah, too) a surrogate daughter). She comes back and finds Lizzie's slaughtered her sister, and then Carol has to execute a living, breathing, human child! That's pretty messed up - even more so for a mother, I'd assume.

Carol has also lost her daughter, who was no doubt extremely close to her because of their pre-apocalypse life. Carol was probably very contained in her home and Sophia was likely her one source of joy in the world - and then she loses her, searches for her, and then sees her zombified corpse staggering out of the barn ... and then put down. Again, that's pretty messed up.

Then there's the Karen & David situation. She was trying to do the right thing - but she did murder living humans - and there might have been a chance for one or both of them to survive as there was a remedy (although, to be honest, K&D would have likely died as they got it early).

She's lived out there in the apocalypse, she's been exiled and then brought back into the fold, she's had to kill to survive ... that's a heavy load to put on anyone, and everyone's going to have a different breaking point.

By contrast, Rick is a Sheriff, he did lose his wife (and suffered the mental consequences keenly), but he did regain Judith in the Season 5 premiere and has kept Carl alive through all of this (albeit not completely intact :elol:). Rick's job will have steeled him better for the position of a leader in this world and to do the things he has done - but he's still suffered along the way, so it's not like Carol's the only one suffering ... but Carol has seen and done things that no other has seen or done (although Tyreese was present for the Lizzie situation).

[shootemindehead]

Again though...where the hell does she think she's going to go?

My gripe with Carol (one of the best characters in the show AFAIC) is not that she's suffering from what she's done or seen, it's the silly nature of her suffering. If she wants to end it all, then just do that. It would be very easy with all the guns lying around.

It just strikes me as the writers feeling the need to try and give Carol something to do, rather than playing out any real grief response. Or perhaps having a vague idea for her to do something, but failing to think it through.

In any case, it seems she's given up trying to run away (quite miraculously) and settled in to a new gaff for a bit.

[Moon Knight]

She didn't give up running away, she actually found a home to call her own. I believe that's all that she wanted. However, I do believe Ezekiel got to her in a way no one else could. So, in the end, she did leave, just not far enough and that was no coincident.

Dammit, Shoot, whenever I read your post I read it in Capt. Rhodes's voice haha.

[MinionZombie]

Carol's religious, though (or at least she was, and is at the core of her character) ... so quite possibly she doesn't dig the idea of suicide, even in the zombie apocalypse. She's kind of at war with herself and her natural instinct to survive. She can do a big 'harsh practicalities' game, but deep down in the core of her character I think there's still some deep religious roots.

[facestabber]

Indeed.

It's very easy, having not experienced the things Carol has experienced - nor living for a single second in a zombie apocalypse ourselves (from a position of 20/20 hindsight analysis, sensory disconnection, and objectivity) - to say "oh, buck up, kiddo". Carol's had to do things that none of the others have had to do (or see). The Lizzie situation alone is messed up in the extreme - Carol had to witness her failure to sort Lizzie out (but the kid was rotten, so it wasn't Carol's fault - but she doesn't see it that was, especially not as she was considering Lizzie (and Micah, too) a surrogate daughter). She comes back and finds Lizzie's slaughtered her sister, and then Carol has to execute a living, breathing, human child! That's pretty messed up - even more so for a mother, I'd assume.

Carol has also lost her daughter, who was no doubt extremely close to her because of their pre-apocalypse life. Carol was probably very contained in her home and Sophia was likely her one source of joy in the world - and then she loses her, searches for her, and then sees her zombified corpse staggering out of the barn ... and then put down. Again, that's pretty messed up.

Then there's the Karen & David situation. She was trying to do the right thing - but she did murder living humans - and there might have been a chance for one or both of them to survive as there was a remedy (although, to be honest, K&D would have likely died as they got it early).

She's lived out there in the apocalypse, she's been exiled and then brought back into the fold, she's had to kill to survive ... that's a heavy load to put on anyone, and everyone's going to have a different breaking point.

By contrast, Rick is a Sheriff, he did lose his wife (and suffered the mental consequences keenly), but he did regain Judith in the Season 5 premiere and has kept Carl alive through all of this (albeit not completely intact :elol:). Rick's job will have steeled him better for the position of a leader in this world and to do the things he has done - but he's still suffered along the way, so it's not like Carol's the only one suffering ... but Carol has seen and done things that no other has seen or done (although Tyreese was present for the Lizzie situation).

Add that Lizzie and Mika's dad asked Carol to protect his girls right before Carol stabbed his brain. I mis 05-01 Carol and I think so does everyone else. People want her badass again. That's why the complaints are coming. I do understand why she is fucked in the head though. We all have our breaking points.

[shootemindehead]

Dammit, Shoot, whenever I read your post I read it in Capt. Rhodes's voice haha.

Oh dear...

[Moon Knight]

Carol breaking down isn't something that the writers just decided to drop in; the signs were always there. The cracks were starting once she lost Sophia and in 4x3 "Isolation", she definitely was in a moral fight with her actions after a brief discussion with Tyreese.

[shootemindehead]

Sure Moon. I just don't feel it's been done too successfully and its resolution is a bit flat. Assuming this has been resolved that is.

What I mean by unsure writing, is that the writers just seem to have brain farted something for Carol at the end of S06 and they don't seem to want to see it through in S07?

At least that's the way it seems after I watched the last series in preparation for this year's.

In any way, we'll see how things pan out over the next few weeks.

[Moon Knight]

I understand. I agree that it does feel a tad irritating but the way I saw it was a way to get her to the Kingdom. I guess they are multiple ways to have done that with the same or more success. I hope that arc is over as well.

[Trin]

I have to say it ... I'm sick of Carol. Her screentime is just cringe-worthy at this point. Her goofy little tactic of playing the inept and simpering woman is overdone. And I don't really care about her character development.

I like Ezekiel. The scene of him calling Carol on her BS was very well done. I recognize that some of Carol's annoying behavior was to setup this scene, and Carol was good in this scene, but I think they could have set it up more effectively. On the whole the scene was worth it though. And I agree with all previous posters that clearing up his backstory early made a great deal of sense. Had they not it would've prompted some serious WTF issues.

I also liked Morgan in this episode. I like his self-reflection and I like how he handles himself.

I was dismayed to find that Ezekiel and group was under the thumb of the Saviors. I knew the character was going to be introduced from the buzz around here, but I had somehow convinced myself that he and his group would be a stronger force, capable of tipping the balance between Team Rick and the Saviors. Don't get me wrong, I think it is a better storyline the way it is. I like the character a lot how they portrayed him. And the situation it portrayed was depressing and bleak, setting good mood for the story.

Regarding feeding the pigs walkers before turning them over to the Saviors - I have to think this is just being pragmatic that the pigs don't consume group resources, with a bit of nose-thumbing at the Saviors (like a waiter spitting in the food of a rude customer). I don't think they are trying to make the Saviors sick. If we concede that animals will eat walkers (something I find hard to stomach - hahaha) then we have to concede that animals have no ill effects from doing so, and furthermore that humans who then eat those animals also have no ill effects. Walkers would be the most prevalent food source around and you have to expect that a vast percent of the animal population (bird, squirrel, rabbit, etc.) that the group has caught and eaten has previously fed off of a walker at some point. To contend that people get ill after eating animals that consumed walkers raises too many questions.

So, not a bad episode at all. I enjoyed it.

[JDP]

Regarding feeding the pigs walkers before turning them over to the Saviors - I have to think this is just being pragmatic that the pigs don't consume group resources, with a bit of nose-thumbing at the Saviors (like a waiter spitting in the food of a rude customer). I don't think they are trying to make the Saviors sick. If we concede that animals will eat walkers (something I find hard to stomach - hahaha) then we have to concede that animals have no ill effects from doing so, and furthermore that humans who then eat those animals also have no ill effects. Walkers would be the most prevalent food source around and you have to expect that a vast percent of the animal population (bird, squirrel, rabbit, etc.) that the group has caught and eaten has previously fed off of a walker at some point. To contend that people get ill after eating animals that consumed walkers raises too many questions.

Since nobody knows exactly why the whole zombie thing is happening but whatever it is seems to be contagious, eating something that you know has been in such "intimate" contact with zombies as digesting their infected flesh is a HUGE risk that most people would not willingly want to take. Simply assuming that because pigs seem willing to eat zombies it means the pigs themselves will not get some disease/infection is not a safe approach. If the pigs are hungry they will eat almost anything (they even resort to cannibalism), and they are not doctors, they won't know whether the zombies they eat are going to introduce a disease/infection in their system. As for the intentions of the Kingdomers when they feed zombies to the pigs, I think it goes beyond just a "prank" or practicality. If they did not hate the Saviors and this was just another friendly group they were bartering with, I suspect they would not feed zombies to the pigs reserved for trading. The possibility of spreading infection and disease on the other group is one possible outcome that must have occurred to them. It is not something you would risk doing to your own people or friends.