TWD 7x07 "Sing Me a Song" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN*

[MinionZombie]

Please keep all talk of episode 7x07 "Sing Me a Song" specifically inside this thread.

If you have a theory for a following episode, please use the "spoiler tags" (visit the HPOTD FAQ to find out how to use them if you don't already know).

Similarly, if you're going to discuss plot points from the comic book, please use "spoiler tags" - not everyone is up-to-date on them, and some people don't read them at all.

Enjoy!

Directed by: Rosemary Rodriguez
Written by: Angela Kang & Corey Reed


"A further peek into the Sanctuary."

http://dailydead.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/TWD-707-02-768x540.jpg

[Moon Knight]

Finally, I've been waiting for this one.

[facestabber]

I'm sorry but was Carl basically on an assassination mission regardless of his own death if need be? Negan walked directly across the path of Carl's rifle. There was no cover or obstruction to prevent Carl from unleashing the vengeance he was after. And that includes sending rounds through the red coat savior Negan walked behind. I know this episode is big for the comic universe but some of the stuff is just rediculous.

There were some cool scenes but the dumb just bothers me.

- - - Updated - - -

[JDP]

I'm sorry but was Carl basically on an assassination mission regardless of his own death if need be? Negan walked directly across the path of Carl's rifle. There was no cover or obstruction to prevent Carl from unleashing the vengeance he was after. And that includes sending rounds through the red coat savior Negan walked behind. I know this episode is big for the comic universe but some of the stuff is just rediculous.

There were some cool scenes but the dumb just bothers me.

- - - Updated - - -

Also Negan just casually goes to Alexandria, a place where he knows he is much hated, apparently only taking a couple or so of his men with him. In the real world this guy would already have been either killed or captured and turned into a hostage by his very own enemies, who would not so casually allow him to pull this kind of absurdly defiant bravado.

[facestabber]

Also Negan just casually goes to Alexandria, a place where he knows he is much hated, apparently only taking a couple or so of his men with him. In the real world this guy would already have been either killed or captured and turned into a hostage by his very own enemies, who would not so casually allow him to pull this kind of absurdly defiant bravado.

I hate to say it but the Negan arc peaked at 07-01. It was a fantastic and brutal start. This is just over the top silly. His henchman dont look like they are having the time of their life. They all look down right terrified. Opportunities galore to kill him. I dont see why Carl didnt take Lucille to Negans skull when he went to pick up Judith. Has Carl quickly forgotten the horror he forced himself to observe when Abe and Glenn were slaughtered?

Funny side note I believe I saw. After Dwight tackles Carl and puts the rifle to him, look at how Dwight holds the rifle. Specifically the hand that is supposed to be on the pistol grip/trigger area.....Unless I saw it wrong, there was zero threat of Dwight shooting him there.

[MinionZombie]

Great stuff between Carl and Negan - nice to see a comics highlight play out on the screen. That said, a little tweaking would have been nice at times - as said earlier, the horrors of Abraham and Glenn's death etc drift easily into the background a bit. Although when Negan picks up Judith you can see the sense of imprisonment that Carl feels.

The methods of Negan to belittle Carl and then switch to praise is all about messing with people's heads and sense of self-worth. His game is all about manipulation - with Carl, Negan is kind of trying to seduce him and tempt him. Like they said on Talking Dead - Negan's way seems to be working just fine for him, while Rick's way has been very up and down and, at the moment anyway, crumbled. Interesting to see him with Judith, and interacting with his wives - there's clearly a moral code going on there (albeit a seriously screwed up one) and even a softer side.

The iron scene was grim (most effective just seeing the reaction shots), and it was interesting how he was playing with the public's viewpoint - he's wielding fear, but the man who was punished got it because he abandoned his duty of clearing away walkers (for everyone's safety).

He didn't turn up at Alexandria with a 'couple of guys' though - there were at least three vehicles parked up there. As for the rest of The Saviours - yeah, some of them are having a bad time of it, but others are very happy with where they are. It's not always convincing how its written, but at the same time it's very easy to consider yourself the ultimate badass from the comfort of your living room in a world that hasn't suffered a zombie apocalypse. Screwed up or not, Negan has created himself an army of willing followers. The cost of dissention has been made painfully loud and clear - running in like an idiot isn't the greatest idea. How many times has a dictator or tyrant been bloodily deposed only for the society to fall into chaos and continued violence afterwards? Deposing them isn't wrong ultimately, but the consequences and troubles afterwards can be brutal if there isn't a clear plan and a willing populace. Some of the (many) Saviours that Team Rick killed would have been husbands, fathers, brothers of other Saviours - Team Rick aren't "the good guys" from their perspective.

Clearly there is a better life out there (I rather enjoyed Negan roaming around Rick's home - bare feet in the carpet, the wonder of water on tap), but the foundation of The Sanctuary would have come at a time when all these Saviours were in dire need of help - homeless, fearful, hungry, desperate - now its their home and the downsides don't come at once like a big sledgehammer, they drip-drip-drip away at you and your surroundings. You let one thing pass, you'll let another pass, and then you find yourself like Dwight - hugely compromised (but you can see the continued resentment bubbling under the surface). The society they're living in isn't great, but they've got food and shelter and protection - otherwise it's out on your arse and a likely quick death by being eaten alive. The Sanctuary preys on weak souls, and the strong ones are made to yield and pledge allegiance.

The walker in the tree (both arms get cut off) was pretty rad - but I presume it hit its head on the way down (a bit more blood on the head would have helped clarify that).

The reveal at the end of that crazy guy's supplies hidden on a house boat sort of thing in the middle of a walker infested lake was awesome - tingled all my 'what if' bones. It felt like bringing to life some of the things we've talked about here on the forum. :)

The pacing of this episode was much better than last week's - and this week's was longer. I liked that we got to skip back and forth across different stories, maintaining the importance of the main one (Carl and Negan), but also seeing little bits elsewhere (Rosita and Eugene's bullet-making sojourn, Father Gabriel dissing Spencer, etc). I enjoyed Michonne's roadblock of walkers, too. Seems there's a growing dissent in Team Rick - but the haphazard nature of it is dangerous. Will someone's actions (e.g. Rosita attempts an assassination) cause a death next week ... we shall see.

...

TWD 7x07 Meme:

http://deadshed.blogspot.co.uk/2016/12/father-burn-edition-walking-dead-7x07.html

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-hFfDTz5FXow/WEWhAcpIbPI/AAAAAAAAFAs/FI7DgOF4HWAruH8-1WDJ7HrmCFeXod_IwCLcB/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_7_Meme_Father_Gabriel_Spen cer_Saying_Sinner_Tremendous_7x07_DeadShed.jpg



:)

[Moon Knight]

I loved this episode! The comic brought to life. I don't think they left anything out. Negan is so entertaining to watch and the way he messes with people is interesting because there is always a rhyme to his reason. The pacing was perfect too, they didn't waste any time with scenes and just got to it. This is how the whole first have should have been.

[MinionZombie]

I loved this episode! The comic brought to life. I don't think they left anything out. Negan is so entertaining to watch and the way he messes with people is interesting because there is always a rhyme to his reason. The pacing was perfect too, they didn't waste any time with scenes and just got to it. This is how the whole first have should have been.

Agreed. The pacing has been rather up and down in 7A - the likes of 7x01 and 7x07 have been spot on, while the likes of 7x06 have been too slow.

Negan is definitely one of those 'love to hate' characters. Loved it when Olivia slapped the shit out of him, and couldn't help but giggle at the line about baseball bats not having pussies. :D

Did anyone notice that Carl briefly leaned in to Daryl's ear when Negan's back was turned, distracted by his harem? I wonder if we'll see more of this sort of thing, or some kind of 'this was going on the whole time' reveal that there's been little messages going on - might this provide more credence to the 'morse code blinking' seen when Daryl was dragged along to Alexandria?

[Moon Knight]

Agreed. The pacing has been rather up and down in 7A - the likes of 7x01 and 7x07 have been spot on, while the likes of 7x06 have been too slow.

Negan is definitely one of those 'love to hate' characters. Loved it when Olivia slapped the shit out of him, and couldn't help but giggle at the line about baseball bats not having pussies. :D

Did anyone notice that Carl briefly leaned in to Daryl's ear when Negan's back was turned, distracted by his harem? I wonder if we'll see more of this sort of thing, or some kind of 'this was going on the whole time' reveal that there's been little messages going on - might this provide more credence to the 'morse code blinking' seen when Daryl was dragged along to Alexandria?

I didn't notice the Carl/Daryl exchange but I wouldn't be surprised. I won't lie, I got pretty excited when Jesus snuck into the Sanctuary, that's my dude right there haha.

As far as them secretly communicating, Carl went to the Sanctuary to kill Negan, not to rescue or communicate with Daryl as far as my understanding. I doubt Rick would have sent Carl there on his own and he has no idea Jesus tagged along.

[kidgloves]

Loved it as well. Good to see JDM isn't just playing Negan as one note. The laughing, sucking of teeth and body acting would get old very quickly if it was all the time. Instead it's something he switches on for effect a bit like Ezekiel does in the kingdom.

[AcesandEights]

Funny side note I believe I saw. After Dwight tackles Carl and puts the rifle to him, look at how Dwight holds the rifle. Specifically the hand that is supposed to be on the pistol grip/trigger area.....Unless I saw it wrong, there was zero threat of Dwight shooting him there.

No, I clearly saw it as well. I assumed this was more of Dwight not wanting to actually kill certain characters...or a misstep on the actors part.

[Moon Knight]

No, I clearly saw it as well. I assumed this was more of Dwight not wanting to actually kill certain characters...or a misstep on the actors part.

Nah, Dwight isn't a killer like the rest of the Savior's. I mean, sure he'll kill for Negan, but not a kid.

[MinionZombie]

Wasn't meaning Carl being sent to communicate, was more talking in general - in this episode it was done off-the-cuff.

Yeah, Jesus getting into the compound rocked - and Daryl knows he's on the inside - I just hope that note really was from him (but who else, realistically?) - there was a match on it and something else, but what was the something else? Anyone make it out?

[shootemindehead]

I'm sorry but was Carl basically on an assassination mission regardless of his own death if need be? Negan walked directly across the path of Carl's rifle. There was no cover or obstruction to prevent Carl from unleashing the vengeance he was after. And that includes sending rounds through the red coat savior Negan walked behind. I know this episode is big for the comic universe but some of the stuff is just rediculous.

There were some cool scenes but the dumb just bothers me.

Yeh, that was very badly handled. At least do a gun jam or something, while he takes a shot at Negan, then have him toppled by Dwight? FFS, make an effort.

Negan later hands him Lucille at the ironing rally and Karl does nothing? What?

I know we're to see that Negan keeps control by fear, etc, but the producers are asking a bit much here.

[Ed]

There was a match on it and something else, but what was the something else? Anyone make it out?

It looked like a key, maybe to a vehicle/motorbike.

[Moon Knight]

It looked like a key, maybe to a vehicle/motorbike.

Yep, it was the key to his motorcycle. My guess is Dwight or Sherry.

[MinionZombie]

Yep, it was the key to his motorcycle. My guess is Dwight or Sherry.

Ah, a key to his bike - that makes sense. I'd wondered if it was something like that.

I'd assumed it was Jesus that did that, but then again how would he know where Daryl was being kept? Super ninja stealth to follow him all the way back after Negan had said for Daryl to be locked up again as punishment for threatening Negan? So yeah, maybe it was Dwight - he looked like a rather unhappy camper during the ironing scene, so it may well be.

...

Agreed on Carl's gunfight attack - a little tweak (like the gun jamming) would have been nice to have just to make the scene work a little better and make a smidge more sense. The writers and directors need to catch these little things a bit more. They may be very small touches, but they all add to the logic.

[AcesandEights]

a little tweak (like the gun jamming) would have been nice to have just to make the scene work a little better and make a smidge more sense.

:thumbsup: Exactly! It doesn't take much, I guess they are off in writer's lala land or a deadline was looming or...who knows.

[Moon Knight]

Carl shoots Negan then he just gets lit up by the rest of the Saviors. Carl tried having the situation in his control but of course he failed. Could it have been done better? Sure! I'm just playing devil's advocate here. :)

[shootemindehead]

So far though, the show has done an extremely poor job at showing that the "rest of the Saviors" give a crap whether Negan is taken out or not. In fact, it looks like a substantial amount of them would be happy for somebody to do the deed, as it were.

There are large logic holes happening in TWD this year that are really grating on me. Pity. It started off with one of the best episodes of the show, but has settled into a bit of a quagmire at the moment, especially around the Saviors. They need to show why the Saviors are indebted to Negan, otherwise it's just coming across as a bit silly. Negan offers nothing, or at least hasn't been shown to offer anything. At least the Gov was a lynchpin in Woodbury. People believed in him. Negan is just a psycho with a bat and everyone is just terrified of him. But, he's not even truly surrounded by loyal henchmen. It's simply not being written convincingly enough. They have to show why people are willing to trust in him, despite his methods. At present, he's just a monster.

As someone else said, in real life Negan would be fragged already.

[MinionZombie]

Well, we've seen men loyal to Negan - to an almost cultish degree - on the show this season and last, but I do agree that it'd be nice to see more of the why behind their loyalty. There are numerous members of the Saviours who are totally into their role, while others (such as Dwight) have bowed their heads shamefully.

[shootemindehead]

What the show needs is a cadre that are always around Negan and benefit from being completely loyal to him. In a world such as this sef preservation will come to the fore and people will turn a blind eye to the excesses of a Negan like character, if they are to reap the rewards for their loyality. We've seen vague elements of that, but we see - too often - that Negan simply bullies the people in the camp. That alone is simply not enough.

I know we've seen Trevor from GTA5 (where'd he go?) and some randomers, but their needs to be an inner circle type gang. That would make more sense than what we're being shown at the moment, which is largely just terrified people kow-towing. That kind of thing wouldn't last, especially with Negan being so unprotected all the time.

Maybe it'll be written into the show in later episodes, but so far, it isn't working 100%.

[Moon Knight]

If you serve Negan you get a pretty decent life. Your own room, food, booze, entertainment, you don't work for points, safety, ect. Those that don't live a pretty shitty life; Daryl for example. I believe there are people out in the world that are real life scumbags, criminals, killers, ect, that would follow someone like Negan if it would keep them out of the danger and survival lifestyle away from the Sanctuary. I agree the show can do a bit more to demonstrate this but I understood after 7x3.

Negan works better in comic form but I love the book so I'm gonna be biased a bit. People who don't like him I understand. Me personally, I'm enjoying the character. The season though so far.... Eh could be better. Hopefully it improves.

[facestabber]

What the show needs is a cadre that are always around Negan and benefit from being completely loyal to him. In a world such as this sef preservation will come to the fore and people will turn a blind eye to the excesses of a Negan like character, if they are to reap the rewards for their loyality. We've seen vague elements of that, but we see - too often - that Negan simply bullies the people in the camp. That alone is simply not enough.

I know we've seen Trevor from GTA5 (where'd he go?) and some randomers, but their needs to be an inner circle type gang. That would make more sense than what we're being shown at the moment, which is largely just terrified people kow-towing. That kind of thing wouldn't last, especially with Negan being so unprotected all the time.

Maybe it'll be written into the show in later episodes, but so far, it isn't working 100%.

I think this would help. Negan is far too exposed and the story displayed doesn't support his survival. And it appears Walkers are once again a nuisance and not a threat.

[Neil]

I'm sorry but was Carl basically on an assassination mission regardless of his own death if need be? Negan walked directly across the path of Carl's rifle. There was no cover or obstruction to prevent Carl from unleashing the vengeance he was after. And that includes sending rounds through the red coat savior Negan walked behind. I know this episode is big for the comic universe but some of the stuff is just rediculous.

There were some cool scenes but the dumb just bothers me.

Yeh! Was clunky wasn't it!

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Agreed on Carl's gunfight attack - a little tweak (like the gun jamming) would have been nice to have just to make the scene work a little better and make a smidge more sense. The writers and directors need to catch these little things a bit more. They may be very small touches, but they all add to the logic.
Yep!!

[Moon Knight]

I'm gonna have to agree with the gunfight scene. Everyone made extremely valid points on that one. The actor said that Carl was indeed on a suicide mission. Well, why not just spray and pray?

Then there's Negan just gracefully walking into the way of Carl's "badass gun". I've changed my opinion on this scene after learning of Carl's true intent.

[Wyldwraith]

That's the thing though,
The Writers are committed now. They can't allow anything real-world-like trifling concerns like someone so intent on killing the Big Bad they're willing to DIE to do it. (Ask any Secret Service Agent, and they'll tell you the Assassin they fear the most when protecting a high-value asset like PotUS is one without an exit plan. Without the assistance of blind, stupid LUCK it is all but impossible for agents trained to the peak of human perfection to keep a high-value asset alive versus a committed killer on a one-way death mission.)

But hey, the Saviors have the Secret Service and all their counterparts worldwide beat, yes? ::cue sarcasm set on maximum, rolling of eyes::