TWD 7x08 "Hearts Still Beating" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN*

[MinionZombie]

Please keep all talk of episode 7x08 "Hearts Still Beating" specifically inside this thread.

If you have a theory for a following episode, please use the "spoiler tags" (visit the HPOTD FAQ to find out how to use them if you don't already know).

Similarly, if you're going to discuss plot points from the comic book, please use "spoiler tags" - not everyone is up-to-date on them, and some people don't read them at all.

Enjoy!

Directed by: Michael E. Satrazemis
Written by: Matthew Negrete & Channing Powell

So! The mid-season finale is upon us and it looks like everyone's getting a look-in this episode!


Alexandria receives an unexpected visit.

http://dailydead.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/TWD-708-01.jpg

Yes, I know this is going up early, but I'm busy over the next few days and I might forget to put it up otherwise. :)

[Moon Knight]

Will someone die this episode?
Will Daryl get rescued and by who?
What is Michonne gonna get into?
What is Maggie looking at in the above pic? ^
How will The Kingdom get involved?
Will Rosita take a shot at Negan?
Will Rick continue to be a bitch to Negan?

Lots going on in this extended mid season finale.

[facestabber]

Every time my faith starts getting rattled the show produces a gem. I think this will be it.

[facestabber]

Thank God. Enjoyed that. The Daryl/Rick hug was satisfying. The level of respect those two have for each other is evident.

So Moon how much did you panic when Rosita appeared in harms way?

[JDP]

OK, so Daryl is free at last, but now Eugene has become a hostage. Back to square one :)

[Moon Knight]

So Moon how much did you panic when Rosita appeared in harms way?

Maaaaaaan, during that commercial break I went and got a drink because there was no way she was gonna hit Negan haha. Thought it was a wrap.

- - - Updated - - -


OK, so Daryl is free at last, but now Eugene has become a hostage. Back to square one :)

I believe Negan will treat Eugene differently than he did Daryl.

[MinionZombie]

I had reckoned this episode would see a 'fight back decision' made and a sort of rebuilding of the team (but in exactly what manner I wasn't sure), so I'm very happy with this episode. Sometimes the 8/8 split can work really well, but at the same time you still have to meet that mid-season finale point exactly where it is - in episode eight - so as a result we've had a bit too much circling about (e.g. 7x06 - 49 minutes of Tara and Oceanside was one bottle episode too many, even if there were various parts of it that were very enjoyable - e.g. all the bridge stuff).

Anyway - loved Negan in the kitchen, loved Spencer trying his hand at post apocalyptic politics, loved the whole Negan showdown outside Rick's house (which really confirmed his power as an individual - the violent unpredictability combined with intelligence make him a dangerous foe).

In past threads for Season 7A some folks have said they'd like to see members of Negan's team who are evidently loyal and not just in servitude by force - we got that loud and clear in this episode - the tattoo lady is clearly having a ball (trying to nail Spencer, to boot), as is her male cohort (who shook Spencer's hand) who seemed very happy in his middle management position, and the lady (forget the name, couldn't quite hear it right in the episode) who shot Olivia is evidently chock-full o' Cool Aid for the whole "We Are Negan" thing.

Likewise we saw with "Fat Joey" (if I'm remembering his name in the show correctly) we saw another example of why people follow Negan - he's clearly a weak individual who lucked out early in the apocalypse to a community under a capable leader that managed to protect him and provide safety and shelter. He probably got there very early on with the majority of the others who are clearly well used to kneeling to Negan - at their weakest and most scared moment they bowed to a tyrant and have remained in that position whether they like it or not. So "Fat Joey" is just happy to have shelter and food and, especially if he had he found a better group early on, not that bad of a guy - but he needs Negan and cannot defect to another camp (it'd mean his death or punishment), so he's trapped. He's not necessarily having a good time, but he's not have a terrible time either.

Look at the others we saw in this episode - a bunch of dudes player poker, laughing and joking - and working for Negan they've got themselves some pretty tidy digs to live in (remember the room that Negan was offering Daryl in 7x03 - not too shabby at all, especially so in the apocalypse). However, on the other hand we saw that red haired lady in the truck who was clearly sick of it all (either of being a servant, or out of disgust from what she's allowed herself to do under Negan's leadership). That was a great scene - her telling Michonne about the silencer.

Back to "Fat Joey" though - the one thing I really didn't see coming at all was Daryl smashing his head in a la Negan and Lucille. Holy shit! :stunned: And in front of Jesus, too (which confirms it was Jesus who left the note ... speaking of which, nice to see a little detail with the card keeping the lock on the door at bay, thus allowed Daryl's exit into the bike yard). That scene was brutal - I wonder how Negan's gonna react to that (and Daryl's escape). To be fair, his own people let him down on that front ... might that iron be getting roasted up?

I didn't get to see the post-credits scene (will try and see that tonight) - but who do you think the guy in the boots is? The one we saw by the lakeside (loved that one improved oar said "I am dead" and the other said "asshole" as they were twatting those walkers in the lake. :lol:

It was great to see the band get back together again - you could see it in all their faces - that strength of togetherness (we clearly saw the weakness in lone wolf actions from Rosita). It was interesting, I think had Spencer not been killed she would have done as Father Gabriel said in the church scene (another great bit of character interaction in this episode). Yeah, loved everyone hugging it out, Rick getting his mojo back, his hug with Daryl - and getting his Python back! Fudge yeah - you could see the Rick Grimes sheriff swagger hit back as he slung it in its holster.

So yeah - very pleased with this episode. :) :thumbsup: :)


I believe Negan will treat Eugene differently than he did Daryl.

Oh hell yeah. Eugene will be a servant, but a respected one because of his clear and present value as a munitions maker.

...

TWD 7x08 Memes:



https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-03dwevngGD8/WE7nr-tDxcI/AAAAAAAAFA8/1s7xEGrcYUcUBO4blhjU7SfKDdUy8_kUgCLcB/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_7_Meme_Spencer_Eugene_Savi our_Like_Watching_Haircut_Yes_No_7x08_DeadShed.jpg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LIs7glhJZrc/WE7n6XSD-CI/AAAAAAAAFBA/t2xYbjUoKCwu7WGquDR_hNrrxtVfwRazQCLcB/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_7_Meme_Rick_Carl_Negan_Spa ghetti_Tuesday_7x08_DeadShed.jpg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-b9APjBherso/WE7oHXJvxiI/AAAAAAAAFBE/D6QUp8D9cuIfb7ovF2nGbNMN74gHQYxOgCLcB/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_7_Meme_Rick_Daryl_Hug_Hill top_Reunite_Happy_Cry_7x08_DeadShed.jpg



:)

[Moon Knight]

I had reckoned this episode would see a 'fight back decision' made and a sort of rebuilding of the team (but in exactly what manner I wasn't sure), so I'm very happy with this episode. Sometimes the 8/8 split can work really well, but at the same time you still have to meet that mid-season finale point exactly where it is - in episode eight - so as a result we've had a bit too much circling about (e.g. 7x06 - 49 minutes of Tara and Oceanside was one bottle episode too many, even if there were various parts of it that were very enjoyable - e.g. all the bridge stuff).

Anyway - loved Negan in the kitchen, loved Spencer trying his hand at post apocalyptic politics, loved the whole Negan showdown outside Rick's house (which really confirmed his power as an individual - the violent unpredictability combined with intelligence make him a dangerous foe).

In past threads for Season 7A some folks have said they'd like to see members of Negan's team who are evidently loyal and not just in servitude by force - we got that loud and clear in this episode - the tattoo lady is clearly having a ball (trying to nail Spencer, to boot), as is her male cohort (who shook Spencer's hand) who seemed very happy in his middle management position, and the lady (forget the name, couldn't quite hear it right in the episode) who shot Olivia is evidently chock-full o' Cool Aid for the whole "We Are Negan" thing.

Likewise we saw with "Fat Joey" (if I'm remembering his name in the show correctly) we saw another example of why people follow Negan - he's clearly a weak individual who lucked out early in the apocalypse to a community under a capable leader that managed to protect him and provide safety and shelter. He probably got there very early on with the majority of the others who are clearly well used to kneeling to Negan - at their weakest and most scared moment they bowed to a tyrant and have remained in that position whether they like it or not. So "Fat Joey" is just happy to have shelter and food and, especially if he had he found a better group early on, not that bad of a guy - but he needs Negan and cannot defect to another camp (it'd mean his death or punishment), so he's trapped. He's not necessarily having a good time, but he's not have a terrible time either.

Look at the others we saw in this episode - a bunch of dudes player poker, laughing and joking - and working for Negan they've got themselves some pretty tidy digs to live in (remember the room that Negan was offering Daryl in 7x03 - not too shabby at all, especially so in the apocalypse). However, on the other hand we saw that red haired lady in the truck who was clearly sick of it all (either of being a servant, or out of disgust from what she's allowed herself to do under Negan's leadership). That was a great scene - her telling Michonne about the silencer.

Back to "Fat Joey" though - the one thing I really didn't see coming at all was Daryl smashing his head in a la Negan and Lucille. Holy shit! :stunned: And in front of Jesus, too (which confirms it was Jesus who left the note ... speaking of which, nice to see a little detail with the card keeping the lock on the door at bay, thus allowed Daryl's exit into the bike yard). That scene was brutal - I wonder how Negan's gonna react to that (and Daryl's escape). To be fair, his own people let him down on that front ... might that iron be getting roasted up?

I didn't get to see the post-credits scene (will try and see that tonight) - but who do you think the guy in the boots is? The one we saw by the lakeside (loved that one improved oar said "I am dead" and the other said "asshole" as they were twatting those walkers in the lake. :lol:

It was great to see the band get back together again - you could see it in all their faces - that strength of togetherness (we clearly saw the weakness in lone wolf actions from Rosita). It was interesting, I think had Spencer not been killed she would have done as Father Gabriel said in the church scene (another great bit of character interaction in this episode). Yeah, loved everyone hugging it out, Rick getting his mojo back, his hug with Daryl - and getting his Python back! Fudge yeah - you could see the Rick Grimes sheriff swagger hit back as he slung it in its holster.

So yeah - very pleased with this episode. :) :thumbsup: :)



Oh hell yeah. Eugene will be a servant, but a respected one because of his clear and present value as a munitions maker.

...

TWD 7x08 Memes:



https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-03dwevngGD8/WE7nr-tDxcI/AAAAAAAAFA8/1s7xEGrcYUcUBO4blhjU7SfKDdUy8_kUgCLcB/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_7_Meme_Spencer_Eugene_Savi our_Like_Watching_Haircut_Yes_No_7x08_DeadShed.jpg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LIs7glhJZrc/WE7n6XSD-CI/AAAAAAAAFBA/t2xYbjUoKCwu7WGquDR_hNrrxtVfwRazQCLcB/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_7_Meme_Rick_Carl_Negan_Spa ghetti_Tuesday_7x08_DeadShed.jpg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-b9APjBherso/WE7oHXJvxiI/AAAAAAAAFBE/D6QUp8D9cuIfb7ovF2nGbNMN74gHQYxOgCLcB/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_7_Meme_Rick_Daryl_Hug_Hill top_Reunite_Happy_Cry_7x08_DeadShed.jpg



:)

Well said, brother.

That last meme- Yeah, that was me. Real talk haha.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, the girl that cut my wife and killed Olivia is called Arat.

[facestabber]

Well said, brother.

That last meme- Yeah, that was me. Real talk haha.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, the girl that cut my wife and killed Olivia is called Arat.

Your wife cut herself. hmmmm Arat is Tara backwards. Is she the anti Tara?

[Moon Knight]

Your wife cut herself. hmmmm Arat is Tara backwards. Is she the anti Tara?

Good thing I dig scars, man.

[facestabber]

Good thing I dig scars, man.

Its nice to see Rosita getting some story. Gals with battle scars are downright sexy. Great seeing Maggie smile after seeing her family.

[Moon Knight]

Its nice to see Rosita getting some story. Gals with battle scars are downright sexy. Great seeing Maggie smile after seeing her family.

Damn right! It only took 3 and a half seasons; but I'll take it.

Was it really Jesus who left Daryl the note and keys? I didn't see it as Jesus being behind that, it was too elaborate for someone who doesn't even know about the bike and keys.

My theory.

I think it was Dwight. Once the group goes to visit Ezekiel they also find Dwight there and then he drops the bomb on Daryl that he can be trusted cause he's the one that set him free. I kinda hope it plays this way. Comic readers will understand.

[facestabber]

Damn right! It only took 3 and a half seasons; but I'll take it.

Was it really Jesus who left Daryl the note and keys? I didn't see it as Jesus being behind that, it was too elaborate for someone who doesn't even know about the bike and keys.

My theory.

I think it was Dwight. Once the group goes to visit Ezekiel they also find Dwight there and then he drops the bomb on Daryl that he can be trusted cause he's the one that set him free. I kinda hope it plays this way. Comic readers will understand.

I read the scene as other than Jesus. If it was Jesus why wouldn't he just open the cell door with the key and say let's go Daryl. I'd guess Sherri. She sees the potential in Daryl.

[Moon Knight]

I read the scene as other than Jesus. If it was Jesus why wouldn't he just open the cell door with the key and say let's go Daryl. I'd guess Sherri. She sees the potential in Daryl.

My issue with the Sherry theory is that the footsteps at the doorsteps seemed rather strong for a woman. Of course I could be wrong.

[MinionZombie]

Yeah ... it could be Dwight still ... I'd just got it into my head that it was Jesus because Daryl had seen him on top of that truck (and not be on top anymore once it drove away), and when Jesus rounded the corner into the bike yard it was as if he was expecting Daryl. Seems like the kind of guy who likes to keep on the move in a hostile environment, rather than stick around. Maybe he had some kind of thought process that Daryl needed to make the decision himself to leave, given the chance.

But yeah, it could just as easily be Dwight (or even Sherri).

Damn it was awesome when Daryl gave Rick his gun back and he turned round in that hero shot - the Ricktatorship is back! :D It was great to get the family back together, but it was absolutely right that it had to be taken away at the beginning of the season - I'm glad they didn't wait any longer than the mid-season finale to get them back on track. You couldn't do it sooner as you need to save that for the mid-season finale to provide a hook for February, but in-turn we've had to have too much 'bottling up' of the story to pass the time - not that there hasn't been some really good stuff along the way, but the overall pacing was off. I feel we'll have a better sense of propulsion in 7B now, though. :)

[Moon Knight]

The ending was great. It's funny, looking around online most of the negativity from angered fans kind of died down once that scene came together. Worth it.

With that said, I am not a fan of bottled episodes with the exception of "Clear" and "The Grove". They just did it way too much this first half and the ratings suffered for it. It wasn't the story that frustrated me, it was the pacing. We shouldn't have to wait weeks just to continue a story that was started episodes back.

Let's hope the second half changes all that.

[MinionZombie]

Although with episodes like "Clear" and "The Grove", they actually had a lot of story in them ("The Grove" especially) - whereas, for example, 7x06 simply didn't have enough material for 49 minutes of programming. It desperately needed a second story to go along with it, and was all the more 'slow' in its pacing because it was coming on the back of a few other 'slower build up' episodes.

I think we'll see much more momentum in 7B - the gang's back together and they've got some serious shit to be getting on with. I do think, though, that - possibly - any major confrontation could spill over across seasons ... just a theory, a thought, but it's possible.

[Moon Knight]

Another bottle episode that worked for me was "Self Help" as it moved and concluded the Abraham, Eugene, and Rosita storyline. Actually, I really did enjoy the Governor episodes a whole lot too. I think the main issue is the timing and the actual content. You're right, that episode was pretty flat and underwhelming as a whole. Not really needed as it was presented. I must also say, "Here's not Here" was also great but a victim of bad timing and placement as usual.

I agree with your thoughts on the upcoming second half. I'm ready.

[facestabber]

The tara/heath episode was the boiling point for me. Those 2 characters are not interesting enough. Or rather do not deserve that much spotlight.

Minion, regarding the passing of the .357 I read that as Daryl handing Ricks balls back. Like hey brother let's go do our thing.

Regarding the key deliverer. Was Daryls cell door locked with a key? If so even more would I think it wasn't Jesus. Dwight would have a key though. And again why wouldn't Jesus just open the door and say let's go.

[Moon Knight]

The tara/heath episode was the boiling point for me. Those 2 characters are not interesting enough. Or rather do not deserve that much spotlight.

Minion, regarding the passing of the .357 I read that as Daryl handing Ricks balls back. Like hey brother let's go do our thing.


Regarding the key deliverer. Was Daryls cell door locked with a key? If so even more would I think it wasn't Jesus. Dwight would have a key though. And again why wouldn't Jesus just open the door and say let's go.

I agree. Heath really wasn't in it much so I consider it more of a Tara episode. Bad choice and they knew it.

Regarding the Cell- Darl's Cell door was left unlocked. I know Jesus is ninja-like, but if it was him that set all that up so quickly I can't buy it. Dwight makes most sense to me. I figured Jesus heard Fat Joey pleading with Daryl and that caught his attention; or perhaps he was already following Fat Joey. I'm sure we'll get a proper explanation.

[kidgloves]

I wouldn't be surprised if the "bottle" episodes were some sort of production programming cheat shot at the same time as the bigger episodes. These episodes seem to be poorly written, edited and shot by the "b" directors. Some of the character choices don't make sense either as if they were written out of sequence.

[Moon Knight]

I wouldn't be surprised if the "bottle" episodes were some sort of production programming cheat shot at the same time as the bigger episodes. These episodes seem to be poorly written, edited and shot by the "b" directors. Some of the character choices don't make sense either as if they were written out of sequence.

I can see that.

[MinionZombie]

Another bottle episode that worked for me was "Self Help" as it moved and concluded the Abraham, Eugene, and Rosita storyline. Actually, I really did enjoy the Governor episodes a whole lot too. I think the main issue is the timing and the actual content. You're right, that episode was pretty flat and underwhelming as a whole. Not really needed as it was presented. I must also say, "Here's not Here" was also great but a victim of bad timing and placement as usual.

I agree with your thoughts on the upcoming second half. I'm ready.

Yeah, "bottle" episodes aren't bad as such - it's the placement and frequency of them that was the issue with 7A - but as you say in the ones I've mentioned and you've mentioned (particularly in the case of "Here's Not Here"), there was some real story being chewed through, a lot of character stuff. The trouble with 7x06 was that it didn't offer up much in the way of story content. Heath has barely been in the show in general, and he was barely in that episode either. I like Tara, but she didn't have a huge amount to do in this episode despite being the protagonist - and giving us yet another community (having only just been introduced to Hilltop late last season and The Kingdom in 7x02) was a lot to swallow. Oceanside is an intriguing place, but I would have preferred that it would have been one of multiple plots being covered in a single episode, rather than the only plot.

With "Here's Not Here" (6x04) it's an interesting case. It was part of the big tease over Glenn and The Dumpster (we didn't get an answer until 6x07 or 6x08 IIRC after his apparent death in 6x03), but on the other hand we'd not seen Morgan's backstory - which was worth telling - because the last time we'd seen him before Alexandria he was a murder mad nutjob, and now he was a zenned-out stick fighter. It needed to be longer to cool the audience off after the sheer intensity of 6x01 through 6x03, and it had to be long enough to make Morgan's personal transition from one point to another convincing. There's a lot of really good stuff in that episode and I dig it.

Again, with "Self Help" you had a collection of major players - Glenn, Maggie, Abraham, Rosita, Eugene, and Tara. We got to know these newer characters a little deeper, we discovered the truth about Eugene's "mission", we started towards the desperate times that paid off handsomely in 5B, and we got some awesome sequences (the fire engine hose kills, the herd of walkers in the distance, and of course Eugene's predilection for voyeurism :lol: ).


Minion, regarding the passing of the .357 I read that as Daryl handing Ricks balls back. Like hey brother let's go do our thing.

In some ways that scene was quite bromantic, wasn't it? But yeah, that scene was really nice - brothers reunited, Rick re-armed (like a knight receiving his sword), and a coming together of the team who'd been so displaced and shellshocked by recent events.

And I'm sure there'll be college lecturers who like to make anything mucky-minded (Disney films, the lot) who'll be talking about the 'phallic imagery of the Python - another name for a male member' etc etc etc. :rolleyes:

[Moon Knight]

Rick definitely got his balls back.

The last five minutes of this episode was a series highlight for me. Loved the music and the subtle looks everyone gave each other. No dialogue needed.

[MinionZombie]

Rick definitely got his balls back.

The last five minutes of this episode was a series highlight for me. Loved the music and the subtle looks everyone gave each other. No dialogue needed.

One of the benefits of having characters you've watching for years on end. You can say so much with just a look and some context to go on. It's great to have the regulars back together.

I think part of the issue with 7A was introducing so many newbies (or relative newbies like Dwight and Sherri) - Oceanside in particular (which, apart from Tara and Heath, felt more like FTWD than TWD) - because you were missing your favourites. Now, though, I think we've pretty much got our communities established, we know some of these people a bit now (e.g. it was excellent that we got the full shake down on King Ezekiel in 7x02 with no farting about saving a reveal for later), so I'm reckoning 7B is going to feel more ... ... 'connected', for lack of a better word.

...

Oh, and here's a video with theories about who the person in the boots could be - SOME COMICS SPOILERS FROM FUTURE PLOT LINES!!!

Hox9VhXyDGg

[Moon Knight]

I think the mysterious boots we've seen belong to a whole new character we haven't been introduced to yet. Everything this season so far as been pulled from the comics as far as main story beats go so I'm gonna assume they are gonna throw a monkey wrench into the mix to freshen things up a bit.

[Neil]

Enjoyable episode...

Thing, is Negan, will get back, find Darryl is gone, and gome straight back out surely looking for him? So the scooby gang have surely just got hours available?


And I foun the bullet in the bat a bit of an eye roll...

[MinionZombie]

And I found the bullet in the bat a bit of an eye roll...

I was wondering how long it'd be until someone whinged about that. :lol:

Shit luck on Rosita's part and good luck on Negan's. Stranger things have happened, albeit with scant odds (e.g. the two bullets that hit each other bang on during WWI and became intertwined - in Belgium IIRC, because I saw them on a school trip) - the most interesting bit about that moment, though, was Negan losing his temper over it. He's done terrible things and dished out awful violence in response to a show of strength (e.g. killing Glenn after Daryl punched him), but he was always pretty cool about the whole thing - he was in control - whereas Rosita's defiance (and the bullet lodging in his beloved Lucille) made him flip his lid. We've not seen that from Negan until now.

[JDP]

I was wondering how long it'd be until someone whinged about that. :lol:

Shit luck on Rosita's part and good luck on Negan's. Stranger things have happened, albeit with scant odds (e.g. the two bullets that hit each other bang on during WWI and became intertwined - in Belgium IIRC, because I saw them on a school trip) - the most interesting bit about that moment, though, was Negan losing his temper over it. He's done terrible things and dished out awful violence in response to a show of strength (e.g. killing Glenn after Daryl punched him), but he was always pretty cool about the whole thing - he was in control - whereas Rosita's defiance (and the bullet lodging in his beloved Lucille) made him flip his lid. We've not seen that from Negan until now.

Apparently Rosita has never seen the movie Silver Bullet and learnt from the potentially fatal mistake that could have happened. When fighting a "monster" it makes much more sense to make TWO bullets, not one, just in case something goes wrong. Had she had another bullet in that gun Negan's luck would have not saved him.

[Moon Knight]

Lucille eating the bullet was done better in the comics but hey, it gave Rosita something to do so I ain't saying anything haha.

Also, Silver Bullet is awesome.

[facestabber]

Apparently Rosita has never seen the movie Silver Bullet and learnt from the potentially fatal mistake that could have happened. When fighting a "monster" it makes much more sense to make TWO bullets, not one, just in case something goes wrong. Had she had another bullet in that gun Negan's luck would have not saved him.

Lol. Carl and Rosita are poor Assasins. And I love Silver Bullet. The fog scene was down right badass.

[Moon Knight]

Well, my wife only had one empty shell, geez give her a break. ;)

[MinionZombie]

Well, my wife only had one empty shell, geez give her a break. ;)

Interesting, really, isn't it? They didn't have the means to make their own bullets - so saving the spent cases was never something they did - now they have that ability, but all their weapons had been taken away, and finding a spent shell (that also matches the weapon she found in the woods) would be a tall order. She might never have found any spent cases, so finding one was probably about as good as it would get (plus it's more dramatic for storytelling purposes).

Freak things happen all the time - people have been skewered through the head by steel poles and survived with no lasting complications, or anything you see in those Russian dash cam videos - and in a show that features zombies, a tractor crushing an armoured car, a tank battle, zombies crashing through the ceiling of a supermarket, and a katana-wielding arse kicker etc, it's not as if Lucille taking the bullet is an 'out there' concept within this context. :)

[facestabber]

Interesting, really, isn't it? They didn't have the means to make their own bullets - so saving the spent cases was never something they did - now they have that ability, but all their weapons had been taken away, and finding a spent shell (that also matches the weapon she found in the woods) would be a tall order. She might never have found any spent cases, so finding one was probably about as good as it would get (plus it's more dramatic for storytelling purposes).

Freak things happen all the time - people have been skewered through the head by steel poles and survived with no lasting complications, or anything you see in those Russian dash cam videos - and in a show that features zombies, a tractor crushing an armoured car, a tank battle, zombies crashing through the ceiling of a supermarket, and a katana-wielding arse kicker etc, it's not as if Lucille taking the bullet is an 'out there' concept within this context. :)

The irony is they started off in small town Georgia. Pick a farm house, look in shop/barn and reloading equipment would be found regularly. Don't get me wrong, this part of the story doesn't bother me much at all. For the most part, guns and anmo have come easy. Granted ammo manufacturers are out of business, but the amount of brass, primers and bullets in the U.S are beyond plentiful.

[Moon Knight]

The bullet was also modified a bit so it could be compatible with the pistol that Rosita had aquired so maybe the performance was hindered a bit. You guys think those empty shells Heath and Tara found will ever come into play?

I also remember watching a report about someone getting their head impaled on a spike and living so anything is truly possible haha.

[facestabber]

The bullet was also modified a bit so it could be compatible with the pistol that Rosita had aquired so maybe the performance was hindered a bit. You guys think those empty shells Heath and Tara found will ever come into play?

I also remember watching a report about someone getting their head impaled on a spike and living so anything is truly possible haha.

I think there is no doubt the performance was hindered. Can't say I have ever shot a bat but I've hit enough 2x4 to see that the bullets went through. iIrc it appeared she had a 9mm which I wanna say is 1100 fps depending on many different Bullet/powder mixes. Even under powered at that range and the way the bat stopped the bullet I'd say the bat should have bounced off Negans skull. Not fatally but that's a lot of energy to just stop

[Moon Knight]

I think there is no doubt the performance was hindered. Can't say I have ever shot a bat but I've hit enough 2x4 to see that the bullets went through. iIrc it appeared she had a 9mm which I wanna say is 1100 fps depending on many different Bullet/powder mixes. Even under powered at that range and the way the bat stopped the bullet I'd say the bat should have bounced off Negans skull. Not fatally but that's a lot of energy to just stop

Not really a spoiler but in the comics the bullet chipped away at Lucille as the shot went past the target from much further away. My only real gripe about the show version but I guess we can file that in the department of disbelief.

[JDP]

Interesting, really, isn't it? They didn't have the means to make their own bullets - so saving the spent cases was never something they did - now they have that ability, but all their weapons had been taken away, and finding a spent shell (that also matches the weapon she found in the woods) would be a tall order. She might never have found any spent cases, so finding one was probably about as good as it would get (plus it's more dramatic for storytelling purposes).

I'm not buying that one. Spent bullet casings would be all over the place, not hard to find at all. In the case of the gun she found, it belonged to one of the dead Saviors, which must have been used in the shoot-out they had with them by the railroad tracks. There must be several spent bullet casings from that gun in that area. Plus the gun might in fact be of the very common 9mm caliber, so bullet casings for that gun would be very easy to find elsewhere as well. She could have had Eugene make several bullets instead of just one. Too risky to rely on only one bullet for an assassination, unless you are The Man with the Golden Gun, who supposedly never misses (but 007 proved him wrong.)

[kidgloves]

Well that's a good sign.
I've just become aware that TWD ISN'T on tonight and I'm absolutely gutted.

[Moon Knight]

Well that's a good sign.
I've just become aware that TWD ISN'T on tonight and I'm absolutely gutted.

The first Sunday is always the worst.

[facestabber]

The first Sunday is always the worst.

It certainly is. With Christmas, NFL playoffs and Superbowl, AMC avoids competing with them. Frankly I'd take TWD over all that shit.

[Trin]

My nag isn't about the bullet hitting the bat. For some reason that doesn't bother me. My problem was that Rosita trusted the one bullet they made would work. I don't know a thing about making bullets, but there's no way I trust that some lying mullet headed voyeur with a recipe book can manufacture a working bullet on the first try. I'd want to test at least a half dozen of them from behind a ballistics shield before trusting that gun is going to fire when I need it to.

I expect that anywhere you find a dead guy and an empty gun there are casings around.

I do, however, love Rosita. She is one of the few characters channeling my rage into action. She is doing exactly what I'd be doing in the same situation. Actually, in the same situation, that's what I'd WANT to be doing. But I'd likely be more the Eugene type. Sadly.

I do see lots of evidence that there are loyal Negan followers amongst the Saviors. And that's good. The storyline needed to inject some plausibility around the Saviors. Negan is a really enjoyable character. That said, I still have not seen anyone in the Saviors that I think could replace Negan and keep control if someone took him out. Thus I maintain my position from the first episode of the season - take out Negan and the Saviors fall into disarray. The infighting and power struggle would either fracture them or at least buy you enough time to establish your own group's safety.

Not a bad last few episodes, though. I like the gritty way the action is playing out.

[Moon Knight]

My nag isn't about the bullet hitting the bat. For some reason that doesn't bother me. My problem was that Rosita trusted the one bullet they made would work. I don't know a thing about making bullets, but there's no way I trust that some lying mullet headed voyeur with a recipe book can manufacture a working bullet on the first try. I'd want to test at least a half dozen of them from behind a ballistics shield before trusting that gun is going to fire when I need it to.

I expect that anywhere you find a dead guy and an empty gun there are casings around.

I do, however, love Rosita. She is one of the few characters channeling my rage into action. She is doing exactly what I'd be doing in the same situation. Actually, in the same situation, that's what I'd WANT to be doing. But I'd likely be more the Eugene type. Sadly.

I do see lots of evidence that there are loyal Negan followers amongst the Saviors. And that's good. The storyline needed to inject some plausibility around the Saviors. Negan is a really enjoyable character. That said, I still have not seen anyone in the Saviors that I think could replace Negan and keep control if someone took him out. Thus I maintain my position from the first episode of the season - take out Negan and the Saviors fall into disarray. The infighting and power struggle would either fracture them or at least buy you enough time to establish your own group's safety.

Not a bad last few episodes, though. I like the gritty way the action is playing out.

Simon is pretty strong number 2. I believe people would follow him without question. Fun fact, Steven Ogg (Simon) originally auditioned for the role of Negan. ;)

Also, Rosita is life. :D

[JDP]

My nag isn't about the bullet hitting the bat. For some reason that doesn't bother me. My problem was that Rosita trusted the one bullet they made would work. I don't know a thing about making bullets, but there's no way I trust that some lying mullet headed voyeur with a recipe book can manufacture a working bullet on the first try. I'd want to test at least a half dozen of them from behind a ballistics shield before trusting that gun is going to fire when I need it to.

Perhaps it had already been tested that Eugene can in fact produce working bullets. Otherwise it would be hard to explain why it seems that the rest of the group is confident in Eugene's ability to do this.

[Wyldwraith]

Stating Simon could easily replace Negan if Negan was killed ignores the lessons of history,
Just in the last 30-ish years, when Reagan got shot and his VP was VERY TEMPORARILY unreachable, you already had the Secretary of State making a power-grab that came within centimeters of clusterfucking the entire continuity of government. That was with force of law behind the VP, and a bunch of people sitting safe as houses in one of the most secure structures on Earth during peacetime.

To say Simon could just "step in" if Negan went down also ignores the fact that Negan is many types of leader to different personality-types within the Saviors. To some the Dread Tyrant, to others the touchstone of their safety and stability, to still others the Mad Hatter Enabler of their Depravity Fun-Ride. There's zero evidence Simon has the kind of flexibility (and in-built savagery/depravity) to just step into all those roles Negan fills. Life as the Competent Lieutenant does NOT prepare one for a sudden by-surprise promotion to the Big Chair. There's also the distinct possibility Negan has in his time used Simon as a proxy-enforcer...and there may well be currents of Simon-hatred running through the Saviors that Simon, unlike Negan, hasn't had the license to brutalize and intimidate out of potential axe-grinders.

Trin is right. The Saviors will shatter like glass when the day of Negan's fall arrives. Natural human tendency to fall into disarray when the tribe leader falls + Inability of any Negan-subordinates to effectively and in a timely manner emulate his multi-aspect style of dominance-based leadership = Broken Saviors. Some not-insignificant groups may well split into different factions however. Much like the situation which arose after Alexander the Great's demise.

[Moon Knight]

Stating Simon could easily replace Negan if Negan was killed ignores the lessons of history,
Just in the last 30-ish years, when Reagan got shot and his VP was VERY TEMPORARILY unreachable, you already had the Secretary of State making a power-grab that came within centimeters of clusterfucking the entire continuity of government. That was with force of law behind the VP, and a bunch of people sitting safe as houses in one of the most secure structures on Earth during peacetime.

To say Simon could just "step in" if Negan went down also ignores the fact that Negan is many types of leader to different personality-types within the Saviors. To some the Dread Tyrant, to others the touchstone of their safety and stability, to still others the Mad Hatter Enabler of their Depravity Fun-Ride. There's zero evidence Simon has the kind of flexibility (and in-built savagery/depravity) to just step into all those roles Negan fills. Life as the Competent Lieutenant does NOT prepare one for a sudden by-surprise promotion to the Big Chair. There's also the distinct possibility Negan has in his time used Simon as a proxy-enforcer...and there may well be currents of Simon-hatred running through the Saviors that Simon, unlike Negan, hasn't had the license to brutalize and intimidate out of potential axe-grinders.

Trin is right. The Saviors will shatter like glass when the day of Negan's fall arrives. Natural human tendency to fall into disarray when the tribe leader falls + Inability of any Negan-subordinates to effectively and in a timely manner emulate his multi-aspect style of dominance-based leadership = Broken Saviors. Some not-insignificant groups may well split into different factions however. Much like the situation which arose after Alexander the Great's demise.

You could be right. *shrugs*

[Wyldwraith]

Or we can skip the narrative and common sense,
Just looking at TWD in a meta sense, the scriptwriters have never had any use for a group of villains after their leader falls. Just like with the Governor or the Terminians, the minions are only a threat because of the evil guiding hand at the helm. Strip that away and they're just rabid animals with guns.

[facestabber]

Or we can skip the narrative and common sense,
Just looking at TWD in a meta sense, the scriptwriters have never had any use for a group of villains after their leader falls. Just like with the Governor or the Terminians, the minions are only a threat because of the evil guiding hand at the helm. Strip that away and they're just rabid animals with guns.

Can't argue this.

[MinionZombie]

Or we can skip the narrative and common sense,
Just looking at TWD in a meta sense, the scriptwriters have never had any use for a group of villains after their leader falls. Just like with the Governor or the Terminians, the minions are only a threat because of the evil guiding hand at the helm. Strip that away and they're just rabid animals with guns.

Hmmm ... I wouldn't be so quick to say that'll happen this time around.

[facestabber]

Hmmm ... I wouldn't be so quick to say that'll happen this time around.

Steven Ogg just promoted series regular perhaps or you thinking something else.

[MinionZombie]

Steven Ogg just promoted series regular perhaps or you thinking something else.

I wasn't aware that Steven Ogg was bumped up to a regular - although that makes me happy as I enjoy his character and performance in the show. :)

[Moon Knight]

I wasn't aware that Steven Ogg was bumped up to a regular - although that makes me happy as I enjoy his character and performance in the show. :)

Damn right, man, Simon is awesome.

[Wyldwraith]

When dissecting probabilities one can only be informed by preexisting trends. There are other factors (such as the likelihood or not of the writers breaking their own established convention)...but, end of the day, if you're going predictive you can go with what you know, and maybe put a little intuitive english on your read. All else is speculation. Data-bits we get access to otherwise "in vacuum" often don't mean what we think they mean. Hell, look at the theory-crafting that's gone one with GoT. Exactly how many times did the different factions talk themselves blue, until they were defending the opposite position they began defending concerning John Snow?

Blindsides are a thing, but I believe in the new and groundbreaking when I see it as a rule.

[Wyldwraith]

Bit of thread necromancy,
I'm OK with Negan having a "miraculous escape" like Rosita's shot going astray...but IMHO Negan has long since exhausted his share of improbable close shaves. He faces down a Rick armed with a hatchet at close range with a low-caliber automatic weapon completely lacking the stopping power required to prevent Rick burying that hatchet in Negan's head before Rick went down. Carl took a shot, and managed to utterly flub his assassination attempt despite his target being less than ten feet away. THEN Rosita's shot went astray.

To say that Negan has been living a charmed existence is the understatement of understatements. It really feels contrived to me. As I've said many times before, Negan puts himself out there without significant Savior support on a regular basis. An edged weapon drenched in Walker viscera would be the end of him with a mere scratch. The front of the Savior compound has Walkers all over it. We've seen there ARE individuals amongst the Saviors who despise Negan, and he tends to give cleanup jobs to people on his shit list. It frankly beggars belief that no one has pushed a shiv into a Walker, then taken a stab at Negan with it.

The thing about successful tyrants is they create situations where people lose hope, often for good. Someone with nothing to lose and a belly full of hate is very, very dangerous. Yet Negan's casual, ever at ease manner is completely at odds with the reality of how fragile the man really is. He allows people to walk within arm's reach regularly...if even 1% of the Saviors want Negan dead badly enough to not care what happens after they've brought him down, statistics say there would have been such attempts. Even if those attempts happened in the past and all failed, we'd see some sign of Negan being conscious of his mortality by the exhibition of reasonable caution on his part. We don't see any sign of such.

Negan is different than the other chief villains TWD has showcased in that at no time does he ever seem personally vulnerable in a meaningful way. That creates something of a caricature IMHO.

[Moon Knight]

Negan is awesome. ;)