Terminator 2 (film) - 3D

[Neil]

I might give this a go actually. It's a nigh on perfect scifi flick, and such a perfectly scripted sequel to the first!

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[JDP]

I might give this a go actually. It's a nigh on perfect scifi flick, and such a perfectly scripted sequel to the first!

The "mercury" android was too difficult to swallow. It looked more like something out of a fantasy movie rather than a sci-fi movie. The first movie was more "realistic", it remains the best in the franchise.

[shootemindehead]

Agreed.

I could never get with that liquid robot nonsense.

[Neil]

The "mercury" android was too difficult to swallow. It looked more like something out of a fantasy movie rather than a sci-fi movie. The first movie was more "realistic", it remains the best in the franchise.

Agreed.

I could never get with that liquid robot nonsense.

Strange, I find it easier to believe micro/nano technology can create what appears to be liquid metal, than dead bodies rising up from the ground?

ie: If I and to suggest one could happen...?

And if that one request of some suspension of disbelief is all that is required to otherwise enjoy a bloody amazing solid sequel to the first? Too much to ask?

[EvilNed]

The liquid metal robot makes sense to me. It seems like the logical next step in technology.

[JDP]

Strange, I find it easier to believe micro/nano technology can create what appears to be liquid metal, than dead bodies rising up from the ground?

ie: If I and to suggest one could happen...?

And if that one request of some suspension of disbelief is all that is required to otherwise enjoy a bloody amazing solid sequel to the first? Too much to ask?

Building a machine that does what was shown in that movie (viz: morphing into virtually any shape without losing its CPU, circuitry, data/memory-banks, etc.) would be practically impossible, at least certainly not possible at around the point in time that the first Terminator came from. The technology shown in the first movie is way more realistic and believable, it would not surprise me if mankind in fact one day manages to build androids similar to those of the first movie at some point in the future.

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The liquid metal robot makes sense to me. It seems like the logical next step in technology.

The problem is that this was not "the logical next step in technology" but a humongous, gigantic leap in technology that it just is too difficult to believe. It does not look like anything we could actually build. We are talking about a technology that to us is totally alien, unlike the technology of the first Terminator, which is very easy and logical to see as the progression of our current robotics and computers. The machines took over and continued to develop OUR technology, not that of some alien civilization that no one had ever seen before.

[shootemindehead]

Yeh, what he said /\ :)

The problem is the silly morphing into anything it wished. Nano tech is fine and all that, but there has to be a line drawn somewhere.

The film just crosses into absurdity too often. It's also noisy, irritating and it makes me miss the gritty nature of the first one.

[MinionZombie]

The liquid metal robot makes sense to me. It seems like the logical next step in technology.

Aye, I really don't see a problem with the T-1000 at all. As for morphing into other things - it just resembles other people and samples their voices (perhaps even has some kind of DNA reader capability when it kills someone). It's copying them and analysing their voice, that's it - but you can also see the limits of the technology (e.g. the dog name trick - "Wolfie" rather than "Max", the gun getting stuck in the bars, the freeze/melt climax causing serious damage and corrupting it). I can't understand how it's too 'out-there' (in a sci-fi movie, no less! :lol: ).

I love T2. I don't find it noisy or anything, in fact I feel it's like a symphony of sorts. The editing - visual and aural - is so pin sharp that action scenes play out like a piece of music. The edits are precise and the sound effects are spot on to provide maximum impact and pace, and not once does it become an incomprehensible blur like all these Transformers-type movies we get these days.

As for T2 in 3D ... come on JC, give it up, 3D's a gimmick. I know he does it best, but it's still a gimmick as a piece of technology. He did it well with Avatar (which benefitted from the novelty factor, and it being most people's introduction to the technology), but it quickly became pointless or poorly executed afterwards. The only film that used it well was Jackass 3D.

[EvilNed]

The problem is that this was not "the logical next step in technology" but a humongous, gigantic leap in technology that it just is too difficult to believe. It does not look like anything we could actually build. We are talking about a technology that to us is totally alien, unlike the technology of the first Terminator, which is very easy and logical to see as the progression of our current robotics and computers. The machines took over and continued to develop OUR technology, not that of some alien civilization that no one had ever seen before.

I don't see this as ridiculous at all. In fact, as I said, seems like the logical next step. It's not at all a gigantic leap - especially not for an AI which could calculate and develop ideas much MUCH faster than we could.

[JDP]

Aye, I really don't see a problem with the T-1000 at all. As for morphing into other things - it just resembles other people and samples their voices (perhaps even has some kind of DNA reader capability when it kills someone). It's copying them and analysing their voice, that's it - but you can also see the limits of the technology (e.g. the dog name trick - "Wolfie" rather than "Max", the gun getting stuck in the bars, the freeze/melt climax causing serious damage and corrupting it). I can't understand how it's too 'out-there' (in a sci-fi movie, no less! :lol: )

You just mentioned many of the things that are wrong with it yourself. Building a machine that can do such things, specially at the time period involved, it's just too implausible to be believable. And it is not just humans this thing can morph into and perfectly mimic. The thing can even spread out its mass so thinly across a surface that it can imitate the very floor you walk on and you don't notice a thing! Nanotechnology or not, the things we saw that android do just went overboard. It's things that would be more at home in a fantasy movie (where "magical" elements are allowed and you can more easily accept such "weird" things since no explanations of any kind are required as to how the seemingly "impossible" can work) than a sci-fi movie.

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I don't see this as ridiculous at all. In fact, as I said, seems like the logical next step. It's not at all a gigantic leap - especially not for an AI which could calculate and develop ideas much MUCH faster than we could.

But it hardly is "the logical next step". If it was, our own computer and robotics engineers would already be contemplating the possibility of building such a far-fetched thing. They are not. However, the possibility of building robots/androids very similar to the ones in the first Terminator is quite likely to happen. I don't think any computer/robotics engineer would question it.

[EvilNed]

But it hardly is "the logical next step". If it was, our own computer and robotics engineers would already be contemplating the possibility of building such a far-fetched thing. They are not. However, the possibility of building robots/androids very similar to the ones in the first Terminator is quite likely to happen. I don't think any computer/robotics engineer would question it.

This is simply not true. Nanotechnology is widely discussed and researched today.

[JDP]

This is simply not true. Nanotechnology is widely discussed and researched today.

Nanotechnology can't do what the liquid android in the second movie did. But robotics and computers as we know them today are heading to similar levels as the machines we saw in the first movie.

[MinionZombie]

Nanotechnology can't do what the liquid android in the second movie did. But robotics and computers as we know them today are heading to similar levels as the machines we saw in the first movie.

Films with fictional narratives can proffer a world that is different to our own in numerous ways - technological advancements included.

[shootemindehead]

Films with fictional narratives can proffer a world that is different to our own in numerous ways - technological advancements included.

True. But sometimes they cross a line and destroy their own world.

While 'Terminator 2' is an ok, knockabout sequel to 'The Terminator' and both films are pure fantasy, T2's antagonist performs feats that are just plain silly and do a lot to draw the viewer out of the experience. Too often, it was simply a case of having a fancy graphic morph into something on the screen.

I can believe in the T-800. The T-1000 is ridiculous.

[EvilNed]

Nanotechnology can't do what the liquid android in the second movie did. But robotics and computers as we know them today are heading to similar levels as the machines we saw in the first movie.

Nanotechnology works on the atomic or subatomic level. It absolutely can do what the android in the second movie does!

It's a sci-fi film about a self-aware AI that can calculate things at an unprecedented speed at which we can only imagine and speculate. There's no way you can say "this is unrealistic within this timeframe" because an AI could develop ideas at a speed much faster than ours. Much, much faster.

[JDP]

Nanotechnology works on the atomic or subatomic level. It absolutely can do what the android in the second movie does!

It's a sci-fi film about a self-aware AI that can calculate things at an unprecedented speed at which we can only imagine and speculate. There's no way you can say "this is unrealistic within this timeframe" because an AI could develop ideas at a speed much faster than ours. Much, much faster.

Just because nanotechnology manipulates tiny things does not mean that it can actually perform miracles. Building a machine that is capable of doing what we saw that android do is practically impossible. Nanotechnology or not. Also, the time-frame that terminator came from could not have been so advanced as to be able to produce such a thing. Despite their self-awareness and capability to further develop our technology, the machines of those times still had not even been able to solve the "human problem". They were in the midst of a war with us that they were in fact starting to lose. They even resorted to the very ancient practice of slavery, for crying out loud! Needless to say they had no capability to have made anything remotely like the liquid android we saw in the second movie. Like Shootem said, I can believe in the T-800; not so the T-1000. We have machines even in our current times that are starting to gradually resemble more and more the T-800. There is nothing remotely like the T-1000.

There is a great scene in the first Terminator movie that "subliminally" touches on this subject: when the "defleshed" T-800 endoskeleton enters the late 20th century factory and intently looks at all the robotic arms and automated computer-controlled machines operating. Sort of like a "hello grandpa/grandma!" moment! What a great sci-fi flick the first Terminator movie was, it even had a very interesting "social commentary" to make. It's like the Dawn of the Dead of the machines-gone-bad movies. The second Terminator movie was just an entertaining action romp, but not as good and well-thought-out as the first one.

[Neil]

I have to question people's reluctance to accept nano technology which appears to be liquid metal, while embracing time travel, which furthermore will send flesh but not metal?

[JDP]

I have to question people's reluctance to accept nano technology which appears to be liquid metal, while embracing time travel, which furthermore will send flesh but not metal?

Time-travel is theoretically possible, but admittedly extremely difficult to try to achieve. But the first movie did a great job of being vague about how the time-travel worked. Our only source of information about the future are Kyle and the Terminator, and this last one is obviously not going to be cooperative with 20th century humans at all, so we cannot expect anything positive from it. So that only leaves Kyle as our only possible source of information, and he very clearly admits his ignorance of this subject ("I didn't build the fucking thing!") Even at that the first movie was very clever. We cannot demand too much in this department. We have to be content with Kyle's self-admitted ignorance of the topic. We just can't tell how the machines were able to accomplish time-travel. But the liquid android that can retain all its crucial component parts intact despite all the bizarre shape-changes (it can even perfectly imitate a flat floor!), including its data-banks, memory, circuitry, CPU, etc.??? Come on! This thing, even if we admitted its remote possibility via nanotechnology or whatever, would be light years ahead in robotics & computer technology to anything us or the machines ever had. The machines apparently went from building the very realistic and possible T-800, and the other machines we see in Kyle's glimpses of the future, directly to something that has hardly any resemblance to any technology that we have. Did they learn this from aliens??? Quite unlikely, since Kyle does not know about any such third group of "players" in that future drama he comes from. It is only us vs. the machines. And the machines obviously got their technology from us, they just kept on pushing it forward.

[EvilNed]

Just because nanotechnology manipulates tiny things does not mean that it can actually perform miracles.

Nobody mentioned anything about miracles. The technology displays in T2 is within perfectly reasonable parameters for what a self-aware AI could develop within what would seem to us like a very short amount of time. And nanotechnology, the technology of rearranging atoms and particles on a subatomic level, could absolutely perform the feats displayed in the second film. There's nothing unreasonable about it.

[MinionZombie]

The T-800 endoskeleton in the factory in the first film was looking around the factory because Kyle had turned on all the machines to confuse the T-800's various censors and whatnot (to cover his and Sarah's movements).

[shootemindehead]

I have to question people's reluctance to accept nano technology which appears to be liquid metal, while embracing time travel, which furthermore will send flesh but not metal?

It all comes down to what the viewer is willing to buy into. That's the case with all fantasy films. For instance, I can buy into the "fact" that the dead can come back to life and want to feast on the living in Romero's films. However, I absolutely draw the line at them having the ability to run the 100 yard dash in under a minute, al la 'Dawn of the Dead' 2004.

As I said earlier, a film or story can go too far and destroy it's own reality. For me, JDP and many others, the "liquid robot" of 'Terminator 2' just goes too far.

Incidentally, T2 breaks its own universe rules too, in the fact that Robert Patrick's liquid robot wouldn't be able to be transported because it has no flesh.

At the end of the day, for me - and I've this before - 'Terminator 2' is just the younger, louder, brother of your mate 'The Terminator'. Voluminous, brash and while being entertaining at first, quickly grows to irritate you, while reminding you why you prefer the company of his more intelligent older brother.

[EvilNed]

Hmm. Interesting. I've never ever heard anyone not buying into the Liquid nanorobot of T2. It's within the realm of possibilities, so I don't know why it's a problem...

[JDP]

The T-800 endoskeleton in the factory in the first film was looking around the factory because Kyle had turned on all the machines to confuse the T-800's various censors and whatnot (to cover his and Sarah's movements).

Yes, but look at the way the Terminator looks at his "ancestors" at work. Then he moves on to continue looking for his prey. Kyle's tactic did not work, BTW. He found them all the same, noise or no noise, activity or no activity.

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Nobody mentioned anything about miracles. The technology displays in T2 is within perfectly reasonable parameters for what a self-aware AI could develop within what would seem to us like a very short amount of time. And nanotechnology, the technology of rearranging atoms and particles on a subatomic level, could absolutely perform the feats displayed in the second film. There's nothing unreasonable about it.

Nanotechnology can't do what that liquid terminator did, like becoming thin and flat as the floor and then somehow magically manage to morph back as it was before, no loss of any of its memory, circuitry and AI capabilities during all these bizarre transformations. This goes beyond the realm of science fiction and into pure fantasy. And even if we admitted such things were possible, we would be talking about a whole different fanciful technology here that seemingly popped out of nowhere, nothing remotely like the one in the future we saw in Kyle's reminiscences in the first movie, where the machines we saw look like the natural, logical progression of our own robotics and computers, not something radically different from them.

[EvilNed]

Nanotechnology can't do what that liquid terminator did, like becoming thin and flat as the floor and then somehow magically manage to morph back as it was before, no loss of any of its memory, circuitry and AI capabilities during all these bizarre transformations. This goes beyond the realm of science fiction and into pure fantasy. And even if we admitted such things were possible, we would be talking about a whole different fanciful technology here that seemingly popped out of nowhere, nothing remotely like the one in the future we saw in Kyle's reminiscences in the first movie, where the machines we saw look like the natural, logical progression of our own robotics and computers, not something radically different from them.

This is simply not true. A memory is not even today a physical thing. Memory can be stored virtually, which means that a morphing shape could derive it's memory from a personal cloud. As for circuitry or calculating power, again this would not be a hindrance to a nanotechnological being seeing as it works on a subatomic level and anything that's just a milimeter high (or thin) would be enough for it to store loads of information.

[MinionZombie]

Yes, but look at the way the Terminator looks at his "ancestors" at work. Then he moves on to continue looking for his prey. Kyle's tactic did not work, BTW. He found them all the same, noise or no noise, activity or no activity.

It blatantly slowed him down. The T-800 was always gonna get him (otherwise you've got no third act show down) - there's limited floor space to explore, for one thing. The T-800 would have just found them quicker without the interference. You can read the "ancestors" thing into it if you like, but really the T-800 is doing a visual scan of the area.

[JDP]

This is simply not true. A memory is not even today a physical thing. Memory can be stored virtually, which means that a morphing shape could derive it's memory from a personal cloud. As for circuitry or calculating power, again this would not be a hindrance to a nanotechnological being seeing as it works on a subatomic level and anything that's just a milimeter high (or thin) would be enough for it to store loads of information.

There is no such thing as a memory that is not stored physically somewhere. You are talking about "miracles" here, nothing to do with computers as we know them and understand them. And this liquid "miracle" in fact happens to have traveled back in time, so it would have no access to any "personal cloud" located somewhere else to retrieve any information whenever it needed it. Very much like the realistic and quite possible T-800, it has to have brought with it everything necessary for its functioning, since once it's back in time it is totally cut-off from the future it came from and is 100% on its own from now on.

Plus on top of all that has been already pointed out, the purely fantastic liquid android can also take all kinds of punishment with virtually no damage at all. Even a high explosive charge going off in the midst of its mass does not affect this thing! Pure fantasy, plain and simple. This thing defies all kinds of logic and common sense, unlike the T-800. Anyone who cannot see what is plainly wrong with this picture must obviously have a very unrealistic view of what robots and computers can and cannot actually do. There are limitations to all fields. They are not exceptions.

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It blatantly slowed him down. The T-800 was always gonna get him (otherwise you've got no third act show down) - there's limited floor space to explore, for one thing. The T-800 would have just found them quicker without the interference. You can read the "ancestors" thing into it if you like, but really the T-800 is doing a visual scan of the area.

There is a good reason why the filmmaker chose an automated complex factory, showing robotic arms and computer controlled machinery, instead of a more conventional factory with less complex machinery, which would have served the same purpose if merely a simple distraction was meant in this scene and nothing else implied. I cannot help you if you cannot see how obvious the message is when the Terminator intently looks at all these complex electronic machines operating. Obviously a coming face-to-face with its remote predecessors, our own current technology that was responsible for eventually spawning the very future computer-controlled machines that will attempt to exterminate us. It is not that difficult to see it.

Plus Kyle's tactic was hardly effective. It did not stop the Terminator from eventually finding them. All the noises and activity did not fool it. Any seeming delay in finding them was more due to how big and full of places to hide the factory is than the activity really distracting the Terminator much.

[EvilNed]

There is no such thing as a memory that is not stored physically somewhere.

Absolutely, but the amount of physical space needed would be miniscule. Nanotechnology Miniscule. A reasonable assumption would be that any memory is stored on it's own network, not necessarily hooked up to anything else. There's iphone gadgets that can project their own network these days. The same goes for all other aspects of the T1000...

Silly argument really.

[MinionZombie]

It is not that difficult to see it.

Plus Kyle's tactic was hardly effective. It did not stop the Terminator from eventually finding them. All the noises and activity did not fool it. Any seeming delay in finding them was more due to how big and full of places to hide the factory is than the activity really distracting the Terminator much.

1) I can see it, but I'm talking literally about the T-800. The T-800 isn't in that moment actually thinking "gosh, look at my ancestors" - it's thinking "where is my objective?" - that's the point I'm making, not disagreeing with JC's filmmaker intentions for the scene.

2) As I said in my previous post it was never going to stop the T-800 from finding them because you wouldn't have your third act showdown, but it did slow it down. Similarly, the pipe bomb didn't stop the T-800, but it sure as shit made it less effective in achieving it's mission and gave Sarah a fighting chance.

[Neil]

Well saw this last night. Nice to see the cinema almost full too!

I have to say I was surprised how well the 3D conversion worked! It's amazing tech and most of the time it looked great.

That said, for some reason there's was obvious overscan. ie: What was shown on our cinema screen was a crop of the overall image, so at times you lost stuff that you should have been seeing. eg: There's a close up of a video screen showing "John Conner" and you see "ohn Conner"...

Not sure if this was down to the 3D processing, a choice recrop the film for better effect, or very unlikely an issue at our screen.


The film has clearly aged, and you can feel its 25yrs old at times, but christ so much of it is so well written and filmed, it's hard not to be impressed overall at the film!

And the effects and stunt work is all the more impressive for the meagre use of CGI.

note1: I think the classic couple of shots where you can see its a stuntman rather than Arni (eg: on the bike) have been addressed, as I was looking out for them, and couldn't see them!

note2: Surprisingly, given 'note1' the truck jumping off the bridge resulting in wheels pointing in different directions, and then a second later, looking perfect, wasn't addressed :)

[MinionZombie]

I saw an interview with Cameron and he said he fixed the glass falling out of the truck's window frame (as it appears in-place in the next shot). Interesting that he didn't fix the wheels. Although, to be fair, if I've ever noticed those continuity hiccups before I mustn't have been that fussed. :lol:

Maybe the slight re-cropping is so you can have some movement with the layers of the film without it looking weird at the edge of frame in order for the 3-D to work. That said, I really don't like any kind of cropping of a feature film's image.

[Neil]

Maybe the slight re-cropping is so you can have some movement with the layers of the film without it looking weird at the edge of frame in order for the 3-D to work. That said, I really don't like any kind of cropping of a feature film's image.That was my take on the crop... BUT, in some of the scenes when you're viewing monitors or seeing the terminators video feed, the crop was not necessary (at least for 3D issues/reasons) and simply cropped all important text damaging the scene TBH...

[Neil]

I took my brother along to that 3D showing of T2... I didn't tell him what we were going to see.

Before, while grabbing a bite to eat, he asked for clues of what we were going to see. So I gave him a couple, hinting about the film and Arni, so he pulled out his phone and asked, "Is it him?"

There was a picture of Arni with one of my brother's mates.

Transpires his mate's daughter got married last year, and Arni was the best man at her wedding!

How cool was that!

[MinionZombie]

Ha! Small world, eh?! Like a six degrees of Kevin Bacon deeley.