TWD 8x02 "The Damned" episode discussion... **SPOILERS*

[MinionZombie]

Please keep all talk of episode 8x02 "The Damned" specifically inside this thread.

If you have a theory for a following episode, please use the "spoiler tags" (visit the HPOTD FAQ to find out how to use them if you don't already know).

Similarly, if you're going to discuss plot points from the comic book, please use "spoiler tags" - not everyone is up-to-date on them, and some people don't read them at all.

Enjoy!

Directed by: Rosemary Rodriguez
Written by: Matthew Negrete & Channing Powell


"The plan involving Alexandrians, Kingdommers and Hilltoppers unfolds. As Rick continues to fight, he encounters a familiar face."

[facestabber]

Well I had quite a narrative type and an error occurred. Energy depleted so I will simply leave it as TWD are lucky to have two actors of Lennie James and Andrew Lincoln. Very interesting to see the duality of war. It's never black and white.

[JDP]

Oh no, now Morgan is "bulletproof" too! It seems to have become a trend in this show that all a character needs in order to overcome huge odds against him and become practically invincible is to get very pissed off. Rick did it when Carl lost his eye, going into "God Mode" against a huge mass of zombies that otherwise should quickly have overwhelmed him and munched him down. Negan did it in the previous episode, openly exposing himself to hostile fire without any care in the world, as if there was nothing there right in front of him. Now Morgan goes on a killing rampage without making the least attempt at covering against enemy fire. I hope this Rambo-like trend stops.

Morales apparently has "gone bad". Did not expect that one.

The in-between-commercials mini episodes (they started in the previous episode) about how the red machete, the one that was used to kill creepy cannibal Gareth, got to Rick's hands are pretty cool and unusual. Never thought we would see a backstory for a weapon.

[kidgloves]

Enjoyed this much better than last week's amateur hour effort with the flash forward/sideways whatever.
This was a much more coherent way of telling the story. Could have done without the lingering full head shots though. Feels like they're just padding out the runtime

[MinionZombie]

People are capable of incredible feats when push comes to shove, that or extreme cowardice. We get the rough, but we also get the smooth - Morgan's rampage is part of the (relative) smooth, and had narrative purpose. I see no issue with it.

As previously mentioned, the duality of war theme in this episode was strong - Rick discovering he's just orphaned an infant was powerful stuff - and HOLY SHIT! MORALES! I'd wondered if they'd ever bring him back and here we are - looks like he's been through unspeakable things. Did any of his family survive? How did he hook up with the Saviours? Will Rick have to kill him? Can Morales come back from the brink and leave the Saviours? He needs to have a sit down with Carl, Daryl, and Carol (the other remaining survivors of season one). :D Although, seeing as he's the one who has tipped off all the other Saviours it's a slim chance for redemption for Morales. :shifty:

Plenty of action in this one. The organised sweeping of the radar outpost was good stuff, I enjoyed the Ezekiel/Carol stuff about the difference between enjoying it and simply having your game face on.

But man ... I can't wait for next week's episode with all this Morales stuff going on. :hyper: This could be a really interesting plotline - two former (albeit brief) allies from the very beginning meeting up again on opposing sides of a war after they've each been through some serious shit. It just goes to show that many of the Saviours are normal people like everyone else, they're merely conscripts. Would have been nice if Morgan had snuffed out that long-haired Saviour asshole, though ... that dude's nothing but bad news ... the other prisoners (the lead surrender guy in particular) seem more reasonable.

I wonder if Rick will mention that Negan bashed Glenn's head in with Lucille? Morales knew Glenn right at the start.

Concerning the preview scene for next week's episode:
Interesting, too, that in a preview of next week he refers to "The King" and "The Widow" (Ezekiel and Maggie) - now, Morales doesn't know Maggie, but he sure as hell knew Glenn. The nicknames (rather than actual names) is a subtle step towards 'dehumanising your enemy' as well. You see it in politics, too, a way to justify your (oftentimes extreme) outlook, and of course in times of war to get go some way to getting you through a dreadful circumstance.

[facestabber]

Rick and Morales knew each other when they were both full of humanity. I think their conversation would be very interesting. Morales even stood up for Rick when Glenn brought him to group. Andrea had the gun in ricks face and Morales told her to knock it off. We all know Rick has mercy left and even though he has changed from Quary Rick I think his internal good far outweighs his lesser qualities. The question will be is how far gone is Morales? And let's not forget Daryl is nearby and he isn't let Rick be threatened. To add to that I wonder what Morales with think about Daryl and Rick together. The Daryl Morales knew wasn't the most trusting image as a tandem with Merle.

[Moon Knight]

Remember, Morgan doesn’t die, he said so way back in “Clear” during season 3.

I can’t beleive they brought back Morales. Dude even became an internet meme and now his character resurrection is a reality. Came out of nowhere.

That baby Gracie scene with Rick was pretty sad. Damn.

[MinionZombie]

I wonder what Morales with think about Daryl and Rick together. The Daryl Morales knew wasn't the most trusting image as a tandem with Merle.

I was thinking that very same thing. Daryl was pretty much an asshole they had to tolerate back then - but his character was purely based on Merle's dominance. Daryl's come a long way since then, as has - evidently - Morales. This is some juicy stuff to dig into and I'm psyched for it! :)

Totally didn't see it coming, either. A nice little surprise.


That baby Gracie scene with Rick was pretty sad. Damn.

Maybe he could adopt her. Then he can have two kids that aren't his. ;)

[Moon Knight]

Rick doesn’t need more kids haha.

Another thing, I just love watching Ezekiel and Jerry together. Dude always puts a smile on my face.

[MinionZombie]

Another thing, I just love watching Ezekiel and Jerry together. Dude always puts a smile on my face.

Gotta love Gerry! It's nice to have a character or two in the mix who provide a bit of comic relief (for lack of a better term). Eugene and Tara have both skewed a smidge towards the darker side in recent episodes, although they still retain their lighter side (e.g. Tara in sunglasses and chewing red vines in last week's episode). It's nice to see Gerry as this big friendly giant with a huge double-headed axe - dude's deadly when he has to be with that thing!

[Moon Knight]

Gotta love Gerry! It's nice to have a character or two in the mix who provide a bit of comic relief (for lack of a better term). Eugene and Tara have both skewed a smidge towards the darker side in recent episodes, although they still retain their lighter side (e.g. Tara in sunglasses and chewing red vines in last week's episode). It's nice to see Gerry as this big friendly giant with a huge double-headed axe - dude's deadly when he has to be with that thing!

Is that what they call Twizzlers in the UK? :D

I thought red vines is what they call them in America? I'm not sure what we call them here, I've never really been a fan of liquorice.

- - - Updated - - -

They are called Twizzlers here. Stuff is gross not a fan.

Theory about the Velveteen Rabbit in baby Gracie’s crib. It’s the same Rabbit Rick’s daughter was holding in the flash forward.

[beat_truck]

I know this is TWD and all, but it's an UNBELIEVABLE coincidence for Rick to meet up with Morales again. They originally met in Atlanta. Morales' family split from Rick's group and headed for Birmingham, AL or some crap. Now Rick's group is just outside of DC. What are the chances two people would meet again, a couple hundred miles away from where they started, especially in a world that far gone and hard to get around in?:rockbrow:

[facestabber]

So is the little girl in Ricks future visions Gracie and not Judith?

[Neil]

Anyone else think that episode just seemed a bit messy as regards editing? And yet more needless over the top plans?

[shootemindehead]

I'm drunk.

But does someone want to tell me what the hell is going on?

[JDP]

I'm drunk.

But does someone want to tell me what the hell is going on?

Basically this: for some reason Rick & company are making things over-complicated. They had Negan & his top henchmen cornered at their headquarters and directly in front of them within range of their guns, a great chance to end the war right then and there before it had truly even started, but instead decided to go about it the really hard way and take on the Saviors one outpost at a time. It makes for great action and tension and what not, which is obviously what the producers of the show want to keep us hooked every week, but logistically for the characters in the story it makes less sense. Anyone can see they are going to end up losing a lot of people by doing things the hard way.

[Neil]

I'm drunk.

But does someone want to tell me what the hell is going on?

My friend said exactly the same thing to me. He's confused about it to. Hence my question about the overall editing/story line of that episode! And of course it even goes back to the idea of not simply shooting Negan instead of blowing the piss out of an innocent window.

[shootemindehead]

Cheers lads.

I may have to watch that episode again without the benefit of a belly full of Guinness, but I'm really not at ease with how this is proceeding at the moment. The course of events didn't make sense to me last night at all.

Was that a flash back, flash forward, flash sideways? Has 'The Walking Dead' become 'Lost'?

Or, did the events in Ep2 just directly follow Ep1?

If that's the case, why did Rick bother with his "only Negan has to die" guff, when they're killing nearly everybody left right and centre? Except for a few odd souls here and there and especially one long haired fella, who you just know is going to be trouble in a few weeks time.

[MinionZombie]

No idea how anyone couldn't follow that episode. It was pretty linear in the plotting. There was nothing confusing about it. :rockbrow:

The overall plan? Is there some tidying up it could use as an overall arc? Sure. Was episode two hard to follow? No ... I'm frankly baffled by some of the comments here. Last week's flashbacks/forwards - again - not hard to follow, it's not like TWD is the first show to do 'flash-wherevers'. Do I know exactly what's going on? No, but neither should I - the peeling back of those particular layers has only just started. You don't tell a joke punchline-first and ditch the set-up. Novels don't run for 10 pages and then they're done. :rolleyes: There's intrigue and mystery there to be gradually explored - how is this hard to understand?! :stunned:

Meanwhile the likes of Game of Thrones and Westworld (both great shows ... albeit one moreso than the other) have extremely complex narratives (possibly the most complex on telly at the moment), and nobody moans about it.

...

Anyway ... Moon: the rabbit thing? Ooh, I didn't notice that! Perhaps Rick adopts the kid?

[Neil]

No idea how anyone couldn't follow that episode. It was pretty linear in the plotting. There was nothing confusing about it. :rockbrow:

The overall plan? Is there some tidying up it could use as an overall arc? Sure. Was episode two hard to follow? No ... I'm frankly baffled by some of the comments here. Last week's flashbacks/forwards - again - not hard to follow, it's not like TWD is the first show to do 'flash-wherevers'. Do I know exactly what's going on? No, but neither should I - the peeling back of those particular layers has only just started. You don't tell a joke punchline-first and ditch the set-up. Novels don't run for 10 pages and then they're done. :rolleyes: There's intrigue and mystery there to be gradually explored - how is this hard to understand?! :stunned:

Meanwhile the likes of Game of Thrones and Westworld (both great shows ... albeit one moreso than the other) have extremely complex narratives (possibly the most complex on telly at the moment), and nobody moans about it.

...

Anyway ... Moon: the rabbit thing? Ooh, I didn't notice that! Perhaps Rick adopts the kid?

My take is they are attacking two locations at the same time, shooting as much ammunition as possible, trying to hit the least number of people and most windows? With Rick looking for weapons too... and... Oh I don't know...

And then Morgan and his two mates at the door! So they open it, shoot a saviour, and then three more come around the corner. All three of them have their guns pointed in the right direction, at the saviours... And they do what? Pull the triggers their fingers are already on? No, the do nothing and even have time to look at each other instead, before getting shot. Couldn't they just have envisaged the three new saviours were a window?

It just seems when there's characters wondering around at locations, and you're not quite sure where/why, something's not ideal :)



I am intrigued by Morales saying, “It’s over, Rick. I called the Saviors back, and they’re coming.”

[JDP]

There shouldn't be a reason to be confused about the order of events. Episode 2 is obviously happening after what we saw in episode 1, for several reasons:

1- Rick and Daryl are searching for the location of the Saviors' heavy weapons so that they can't get to the Sanctuary and attempt to cut through the horde of zombies that have blockaded it.

2- The Savior posing as a worker who gets captured by Jesus and Tara asks if the families at the Sanctuary are OK, so he seems to know that it has been under attack.

3- People who died (the two guys accompanying Morgan in the raid of the Savior compound) or got badly injured (Eric) in this episode were seen alive and well at the siege of the Sanctuary in the previous episode.

[Moon Knight]

I'm drunk.

But does someone want to tell me what the hell is going on?

The Hilltop and Kingdon groups are crippling Negan’s forces by removing the various outpost.

Rick and Daryl are looking for the Saviors heavy weaponry stash that Dwight had provided intell on.

Rick killed a man who he thought was protecting the weapons but it turned out he was just protecting his child.

Rick undstands what he just did and is blindsided by Morales who left the original Atlanta group in season 1. Apparently he’s a Savior now.

[shootemindehead]

No idea how anyone couldn't follow that episode. It was pretty linear in the plotting. There was nothing confusing about it. :rockbrow:

https://www.guinness.com/media/1538/guinness_draught_spritzr06bg1_resized_1600-h.jpg?anchor=center&mode=crop&quality=75&width=750

[Moon Knight]

Sorry, Shoot, didn’t realize you got your answer on a different page. And yeah, watching drunk can do that to you haha.

[shootemindehead]

No worries moon.

I might have to have a rerun of that episode later, or just leave the whole thing til half time and watch 7 in a row.

[Harleydude666]

So wait a sec. I’m supposed to believe that Rick and Morales meet up again 6years later when one of them was heading in the opposite direction in the middle of the apocalypse??? Talk about thin writing. Why does every loose end need to be tied up? I like always wondering what happened to Morales and his family. And I wished we never found out what happened to Beth. Some things need to be a mystery and keep the audience unsettled.

[MinionZombie]

But then think about it another way. There's only so many places to go to in the zombie apocalypse. Various routes will be impassable (e.g. freeways clogged up with cars abandoned near the beginning), and various locations will either be decimated or picked clean (so no point sticking around there). Morales' intention was to head where he was going, but that intention could have changed very quickly according to some kind of circumstance and they had to jet in another direction. With the Saviours having various groups out and about, it's 50/50 whether you'll bump into them. It's a dangerous world, so freely exploring isn't an option (you could lose your life just going for a stroll ... actually, Hershel's monologue from Season 4 suits this point :) ). Some of the Saviour's 'communities in servitude' will be specifically targeted, while others will have been stumbled upon. There are people from all communities who scavenge - sooner or later you're going to trip over each other as you're all scoping out the same dwindling number of potentially useful locations (see how Jesus entered the show).

[Harleydude666]

But then think about it another way. There's only so many places to go to in the zombie apocalypse. Various routes will be impassable (e.g. freeways clogged up with cars abandoned near the beginning), and various locations will either be decimated or picked clean (so no point sticking around there). Morales' intention was to head where he was going, but that intention could have changed very quickly according to some kind of circumstance and they had to jet in another direction. With the Saviours having various groups out and about, it's 50/50 whether you'll bump into them. It's a dangerous world, so freely exploring isn't an option (you could lose your life just going for a stroll ... actually, Hershel's monologue from Season 4 suits this point :) ). Some of the Saviour's 'communities in servitude' will be specifically targeted, while others will have been stumbled upon. There are people from all communities who scavenge - sooner or later you're going to trip over each other as you're all scoping out the same dwindling number of potentially useful locations (see how Jesus entered the show).

I wish I could go with that logic but it’s way too thin, it’s a very big country out there. I think the show runners know the ratings are taking a big hit and now just trying to pull out all the tricks

[facestabber]

I wish I could go with that logic but it’s way too thin, it’s a very big country out there. I think the show runners know the ratings are taking a big hit and now just trying to pull out all the tricks

How far off is it from Rick finding Lori and Coral after a horse ride, tank visit and the timing of a Glenn supply raid. As far as Morales goes, it doesn't bother me. I don't imagine things will end well as Daryl is in there somewhere and he won't be happy seeing Rick threatened. Morales is a story but I doubt they expected a ratings boost of significance because of it.

[Moon Knight]

I wish I could go with that logic but it’s way too thin, it’s a very big country out there. I think the show runners know the ratings are taking a big hit and now just trying to pull out all the tricks

Haha Morales wasn’t brought back for ratings, barely anyone remembered who he was, so nah, I don’t think so.

Big country yeah but not impossible to happen. If there is one thing that was thin it was Jeus and Tara going tit for tat about killing again. I’m so done with that argument.

[MinionZombie]

Haha Morales wasn’t brought back for ratings, barely anyone remembered who he was, so nah, I don’t think so.

Big country yeah but not impossible to happen. If there is one thing that was thin it was Jeus and Tara going tit for tat about killing again. I’m so done with that argument.

1) And Morgan found Rick again, albeit with a bit of help from coincidence more than 50 miles away from Alexandria (when he helped out Aaron and Daryl).

2) Welllll ... I wouldn't say it's done. They're in a war now - and what do you do if you have people surrendering? As we saw with Rick, the man wasn't protecting guns but was protecting his baby daughter (the father believing Rick to be a monstrous murderer hellbent on destruction ... kind of like how many of Team Rick view the Saviours as a whole). Killing someone who is trying to kill you in the moment is one thing, murdering someone who is unarmed and surrendering is another thing entirely. The context has changed and become more complicated - the argument is still valid to have. We're not in a Season 2 landscape anymore, dealing with a potential threat from one person over a single farm and a handful of people - it's literally a war - but just because it's the ZA, doesn't mean Team Rick aren't risking committing war crimes.

They have to be better than Negan et al. Slaughtering everyone regardless isn't being better.

[Moon Knight]

I agree with everything you stated. I just don’t want another arc about killing vs not killing. I just hope they don’t dwell on it but I have a feeling it’s gonna be an important story beat for the next few episodes. I guess I just don’t buy Tara as a stone cold killer; even after losing Denise. She lost her sister and niece and didn’t go off looking for blood.

[Harleydude666]

Haha Morales wasn’t brought back for ratings, barely anyone remembered who he was, so nah, I don’t think so.

Big country yeah but not impossible to happen. If there is one thing that was thin it was Jeus and Tara going tit for tat about killing again. I’m so done with that argument.

Agreed with the Tara and Jesus bullshit, I was cringing through the whole scene. I can’t believe some writer brought that retarded shit back into the fold again ugh

[shootemindehead]

I'm agreeing with moon here again, that kill/don't kill thing is bloody old. I understand the hesitancy of particular situations and all, but that scene as played out in ep2 was awful. I was just wishing that Tara pulled the flippin trigger.

Even after the sucker turn around by Jesus, she still didn't just walk up and cap that dick head? Who, frankly, has already proven himself to be a seriously dodgy geezer.

[Harleydude666]

I'm agreeing with moon here again, that kill/don't kill thing is bloody old. I understand the hesitancy of particular situations and all, but that scene as played out in ep2 was awful. I was just wishing that Tara pulled the flippin trigger.

Even after the sucker turn around by Jesus, she still didn't just walk up and cap that dick head? Who, frankly, has already proven himself to be a seriously dodgy geezer.

And if they wanna save face after that debacle of a story line, Rick finds out and says what the fuck, grabs a machine gun walks right up to all the prisoners and mows em down in cold blood and then does a mic drop.

[Moon Knight]

And if they wanna save face after that debacle of a story line, Rick finds out and says what the fuck, grabs a machine gun walks right up to all the prisoners and mows em down in cold blood and then does a mic drop.

As much as I love badass take no prisoners Rick, I think they added the scene where he killed Baby Gracie’s father so they can soften him up a bit. Rick understood at that moment the man he just killed wasn’t fighting for the guns, he was fighting to protect his child. Rick looks into the mirror and see’s what he’s become. Tara even said something along the lines of “We’ll just wait and see what Rick thinks about this.” Paraphrasing of course.

I get what MZ was getting at. We can’t have everyone go terminator Morgan on everyone and in time of war I’m sure similar situations concerning POW’s has happened. I just felt like we’ve seen this too many times already.

Randal, Tyreese, Morgan, the Wolf, all examples of to kill or not to kill.

I do like what they did with Rick though. Great freaking scene. Gave me a Last of Us vibe.

[shootemindehead]

And if they wanna save face after that debacle of a story line, Rick finds out and says what the fuck, grabs a machine gun walks right up to all the prisoners and mows em down in cold blood and then does a mic drop.

Rick going full Randy Watson.

Ummm...can't see that happening there Harley. :D

- - - Updated - - -


As much as I love badass take no prisoners Rick, I think they added the scene where he killed Baby Gracie’s father so they can soften him up a bit. Rick understood at that moment the man he just killed wasn’t fighting for the guns, he was fighting to protect his child. Rick looks into the mirror and see’s what he’s become. Tara even said something along the lines of “We’ll just wait and see what Rick thinks about this.” Paraphrasing of course.

I get what MZ was getting at. We can’t have everyone go terminator Morgan on everyone and in time of war I’m sure similar situations concerning POW’s has happened. I just felt like we’ve seen this too many times already.

Randal, Tyreese, Morgan, the Wolf, all examples of to kill or not to kill.

I do like what they did with Rick though. Great freaking scene. Gave me a Last of Us vibe.

In fairness to Rick, the guy came out fists flying, so Ricky boy was just fighting for his own life. Gracie didn't really come into the equation. Although the "what have I become" face in the mirror was handled well enough.

I just feel, as others do, that "Oh noes...I'm a killer now" schtick is done at this stage.

[MinionZombie]

I agree with everything you stated. I just don’t want another arc about killing vs not killing. I just hope they don’t dwell on it but I have a feeling it’s gonna be an important story beat for the next few episodes. I guess I just don’t buy Tara as a stone cold killer; even after losing Denise. She lost her sister and niece and didn’t go off looking for blood.

Because those 'responsible' (i.e. The Governor) were already dead. She was also pretty sheltered at that point, having lived in that apartment block for such a long time without much need to go out into the world. So she was in shock after all that until Glenn brought her along with him. Then, after that point, she had various trials to go through which threw a lot of grime on her, so she's having to wrestle with some of this stuff for the first time in many ways.


Even after the sucker turn around by Jesus, she still didn't just walk up and cap that dick head? Who, frankly, has already proven himself to be a seriously dodgy geezer.

I think that would have been an interesting alteration to the scene and provide a bit more Tara/Jesus head bashing. Incidentally, did anyone see them on Talking Dead? They're a good double act. :lol:

[Moon Knight]

The killing trope has been done to death, they really need to move away from that. This far into the apocalypse you would think people would be willing to do what needs to be done already.

I wasn’t blaming Rick at all for killing that Savior, he did what he had to do. I believe he was thinking to himself that he’s no better than they are at this point. He just has to accept that and move on. Although, I believe there still is a pretty significant difference between the two camps.

Tara and Jesus were pretty fun together on Talking Dead. :D

[MinionZombie]

The killing trope has been done to death, they really need to move away from that. This far into the apocalypse you would think people would be willing to do what needs to be done already.

Tara and Jesus were pretty fun together on Talking Dead. :D

1) There's still the need to not turn into a monster though, and I think facing a whole raft of surrendered conscripts needs addressing, at least for the sake of the morality of Team Rick. Tara didn't need to kill that man necessarily, she wanted to kill him - and that's the key difference. Jesus was up for the mission, but he saw a difference between immediate combat and fellow human beings.

2) We need more Tara/Jesus banter. They should do a regular 'skype-in' on Talking Dead with a pair of actors who get on really well on-set. It was fun - I'd prefer much more of that than the shite Twitter comments and that Subway Fresh garbage segment.

[Moon Knight]

1) There's still the need to not turn into a monster though, and I think facing a whole raft of surrendered conscripts needs addressing, at least for the sake of the morality of Team Rick. Tara didn't need to kill that man necessarily, she wanted to kill him - and that's the key difference. Jesus was up for the mission, but he saw a difference between immediate combat and fellow human beings.

2) We need more Tara/Jesus banter. They should do a regular 'skype-in' on Talking Dead with a pair of actors who get on really well on-set. It was fun - I'd prefer much more of that than the shite Twitter comments and that Subway Fresh garbage segment.

Every time I begin doubting something you have to make sense and make me feel better about it, geez thanks. :D

As long as it’s not a half season arc I’m good with it.

I hate anything twitter related haha.

[MinionZombie]

Every time I begin doubting something you have to make sense and make me feel better about it, geez thanks. :D

:kiss::kiss::kiss:

:D