TWD 8x03 "Monsters" episode discussion... **SPOILERS*

[MinionZombie]

Please keep all talk of episode 8x03 "Monsters" specifically inside this thread.

If you have a theory for a following episode, please use the "spoiler tags" (visit the HPOTD FAQ to find out how to use them if you don't already know).

Similarly, if you're going to discuss plot points from the comic book, please use "spoiler tags" - not everyone is up-to-date on them, and some people don't read them at all.

Enjoy!

Directed by: Greg Nicotero
Written by: Matthew Negrete & Channing Powell


Conflict with the Saviors leads to unintended consequences for the Hilltop, the Kingdom, and Alexandria; morality proves tricky in wartime.

https://dailydead.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/TWD-803-03.jpg

[facestabber]

The whistling Saviours are back to open this episode. That spells serious trouble for the Kingdomers. A wall of SAVIOUR machine guns and...........nevermind plot armour again.

[JDP]

Well, "Evil Morales" did not last long! Unfortunately we did not get a bit more info regarding what exactly happened to his family.

Daryl is turning into "Morgan 2".

LOL @ Gregory having the nerve to show up at the Hilltop again, after all the crap he has done.

[MinionZombie]

Really enjoyed that episode! :)

Aaron returning to find nothing but a bloody tree - and then the sight of Eric as a walker shambling off to join the herd was wonderfully done and packed real emotional weight. We don't get the chance for that sort of thing when someone turns into a walker on this show, so it's nice to get it from time to time. We've lost three familiar supporting players so far - I'd imagine we'll lose a big name or two by the time All Out War comes to a conclusion. We're escalating. :shifty:

The Rick/Morales scene was great, as was seeing Daryl going full Shane - the Rick/Daryl brotherhood is in trouble. Enjoyed the Morgan/Jesus throw down (really looking forward to that long haired Saviour getting snuffed out some time). Hubris challenged once again at the climax, too - another episode ends leaving me eager to see the next episode. :hyper:

I'm rather enjoying this! :thumbsup:

TWD 8x03 Memes:

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-k3nDj4rLRis/WgCW3eu526I/AAAAAAAAFeQ/58uEvTZwvco4jQ-A0QnIhywlgVCYUU5FgCLcBGAs/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_8_Meme_Gregory_2020_Maggie _Cal_Pancakes_Sanity_Diplomacy_8x03_DeadShed_sm.jp g
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-y9byciDqzCE/WgCW2HihRyI/AAAAAAAAFeM/OvJdj9mtDjExBgEH8E_Z_s4yCxMqKAvWgCEwYBhgL/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_8_Meme_Rick_Daryl_Savior_F ull_Shane_8x03_DeadShed_sm.jpg

:)


The whistling Saviours are back to open this episode. That spells serious trouble for the Kingdomers. A wall of SAVIOUR machine guns and...........nevermind plot armour again.

Plenty of people within leaping distance of Ezekiel, and they're got a 'protect the King' mindset (as we saw last week IIRC with Gerry). Nothing there that's hard to swallow IMHO.


Daryl is turning into "Morgan 2".

LOL @ Gregory having the nerve to show up at the Hilltop again, after all the crap he has done.

Morgan 2? More like Shane MkII, if you ask me - acting ruthlessly and without question. Daryl's takedown of Morales was unexpected and helped show a schism between these two new brothers from another mother - first it was Rick/Shane, now it's Rick/Daryl. Hopefully Daryl can pull back from the edge, though, unlike Shane who was clouded by envy and greed and an unstable mind.

Speaking of Morales, I think they covered it enough in the episode - a simple line was all they really needed - Morales lost his family, he was waiting to die, then the Saviours found him. The sort of stuff he would have encountered would have been very similar to what Rick & Co experienced.

Gregory at the hilltop was hilarious - what a great scene - and Xander Berkeley is doing a fantastic job portraying the character, who was as much of a scheming weasel in the comics, but there's a few more shades to this incarnation, which makes for a very entertaining character to behold. :cool:

[Moon Knight]

The scene where Aaron watches an undead Eric slowly shamble towards the looming Walker herd from a close distance was haunting and sad. Ross killed it. I felt really bad for him.

Makes sense for Daryl to go rogue like that considering everything he’s been through with the Saviors; and let’s face it, it’s totally in character. He ain’t taking no prisoners.

Morales was brought back simply to sway Rick away from turning into a senseless monster. Morales brought up some interesting points about him and Rick. Wish he stuck around a bit longer but I’m not mad he’s gone. He served his purpose.

Lol @ Gregory.

[facestabber]

Minion I wasn't referring to the ambush at the end. Which was flawed as well. In the opening Ezekiel and his merry band end up facing 20-30 Saviours with machine guns pointed at them. Then Carol has an ambush set to a flank. Ok fine, nice tactic but not one SAVIOUR got off rounds and took down Kingdomers.

I know Ezekiel was beloved in the comics but his speeches are cringe worthy. Maybe I'm wrong but based off Carols expressions, I think she's put off by his Kingesque speeches.

I can't quit on Rick Grimes but my interest in this show is fading fast. It's a shell of what it was and repetitive

[Moon Knight]

What do you mean no one got hit? You mean Ezekiel himself? Because I’m sure plenty of them got him including two of his main Kingdom members, who shielded Ezekiel.

I don’t mind Ezekiel, his speeches are over the top for a reason, the payoff just has to be done well. Im not a fan of his in the comic but his show version as usual is just more likeable. My opinion of course. I can see why folks consider him cringeworthy. I dig him though.

[facestabber]

What do you mean no one got hit? You mean Ezekiel himself? Because I’m sure plenty of them got him including two of his main Kingdom members, who shielded Ezekiel.

I don’t mind Ezekiel, his speeches are over the top for a reason, the payoff just has to be done well. Im not a fan of his in the comic but his show version as usual is just more likeable. My opinion of course. I can see why folks consider him cringeworthy. I dig him though.

Is this the Twilight zone or have I lost my mind. The very first engagement we see Ezekiel get into, to start the episode. After which he constantly reminded everyone that no Kingdomers were lost etc etc. Not one kingdome person went down while standing in the open to a large group of Saviours with weapons ready. This shit is just inconsistent. We either see a well organized and lethal group of Saviours or we get completely and utterly incompetent. But since there is so much confusion I'm questioning my sanity and will have to rewatch the beggining again.

[Moon Knight]

Is this the Twilight zone or have I lost my mind. The very first engagement we see Ezekiel get into, to start the episode. After which he constantly reminded everyone that no Kingdomers were lost etc etc. Not one kingdome person went down while standing in the open to a large group of Saviours with weapons ready. This shit is just inconsistent. We either see a well organized and lethal group of Saviours or we get completely and utterly incompetent. But since there is so much confusion I'm questioning my sanity and will have to rewatch the beggining again.

Noooooo, your sanity is fine! Lol I just realized I read your statement wrong. You wrote “wasn’t referring” and I read it as “was referring”. My bad, bro.

As far as the Saviors not opening fire in the beginning, don’t forget they want the King alive. Remember what Morales said to Rick? That close they probably wanted a surrender instead of a firefight. Maybe a little inconsistent when compared to the final scene but I’m not losing sleep over it.

[facestabber]

Noooooo, your sanity is fine! Lol I just realized I read your statement wrong. You wrote “wasn’t referring” and I read it as “was referring”. My bad, bro.

As far as the Saviors not opening fire in the beginning, don’t forget they want the King alive. Remember what Morales said to Rick? That close they probably wanted a surrender instead of a firefight. Maybe a little inconsistent when compared to the final scene but I’m not losing sleep over it.

Haha ok. I thought I was losing it. Negans no kill list was cool. I hope the 'widow' makes him eternally regret Glenn's death with his own.

[Moon Knight]

Haha ok. I thought I was losing it. Negans no kill list was cool. I hope the 'widow' makes him eternally regret Glenn's death with his own.

Yeah, man, I’m loving Maggie’s evolution.

Another thing, I heard people mentioning Gregory said something about a mole within the Survivors group, I’m assuming I missed that? I never miss important beats like that but I guess I automatically assumed he was talking about Jadis. I’ll need to watch that scene again.

[facestabber]

Yeah, man, I’m loving Maggie’s evolution.

Another thing, I heard people mentioning Gregory said something about a mole within the Survivors group, I’m assuming I missed that? I never miss important beats like that but I guess I automatically assumed he was talking about Jadis. I’ll need to watch that scene again.

Interesting I missed the mole statement. I loved the pancake exchange. That was exceptionally delivered and funny.

[MinionZombie]

In the opening Ezekiel and his merry band end up facing 20-30 Saviours with machine guns pointed at them. Then Carol has an ambush set to a flank. Ok fine, nice tactic but not one SAVIOUR got off rounds and took down Kingdomers.


As far as the Saviors not opening fire in the beginning, don’t forget they want the King alive. Remember what Morales said to Rick? That close they probably wanted a surrender instead of a firefight.

^^^
What Moon said. Rick, Maggie, and Ezekiel are all high prize targets to be taken alive - they are the leaders of the group - indeed, this mirrors (somewhat) the need to take Negan down in a manner that isn't chaotic (to avoid a power vacuum).


I can't quit on Rick Grimes but my interest in this show is fading fast. It's a shell of what it was and repetitive

This just doesn't make a lick of sense to me at all. :confused:

I find it odd how some folks are going on about "repetitive" - yet at no point in the show's run have we had a whole collection of linked-up communities going to war with each other, and knowing what's in store all I'll say is that the conclusion of All Out War is not a 'rinse and repeat' of what has come before. The "repetitive" thing makes even less sense to me considering we're now beyond the whole 'just surviving in the wild' thing - we're now into a phase of re-establishing a working society, birthing a new one out of the fog of war.

I'm not meaning you, facestabber, more the IGN type crowd, who seem to be hellbent on making themselves not enjoy the show by looking to inflate "problems" beyond all proportion (as well as crucifying TWD for issues they let other shows get away with), as if it's now 'cool to hate' on TWD. Frankly, I'm feeling that the other show - Fear The Walking Dead - is partly to blame, especially when it's aired right before TWD's new season. It sates the zombie appetite in some of the audience (despite being a clearly inferior show) and negatively impacts on TWD itself.

[Wyldwraith]

As promised, I return with the significant shedding of Savior blood:
Things have been interesting so far, but my biggest problem so far isn't even something that happened in the show itself. During Talking Dead, one of the questions directed Gimple's way was "Why didn't Rick & Co take the fight to Neegan and his lieutenants once it became obvious they weren't going to surrender?" Gimple's answer, that "Rick & Co don't want to be responsible for slaughtering all the non-combatants inside the Sanctuary" rung more than a little hollow in light of the fact Team Anti-Savior Coalition (T.A.S.C for short) lead several thousand Walkers to surround the building. Even IF the Walkers can't eventually get in (and that's a BIG IF when it comes to a gathered Walker horde surrounding a bastion of the living) they're condemning those people to a slower death as supplies run out, waste increases, and a few hundred people remain in close contact with each other in cramped quarters to encourage the spread of disease.

It's not a deal-breaker, but I would've loved to have even a general idea how many Savior combatants there are. Quite a few times in three episodes we've seen ten to twenty Saviors gunned down in short order, plus a group of fifteen or so taken captive. I don't think an estimate of 120+ downed/dead Savior combatants would be overly generous. Just how many guys and gals does Neegan have? Without even a vague number, these skirmishes of ten or eleven Saviors and 1-2 Coalition members dead, plus a few wounded on each side can go on and on, without we viewers having much sense of how much or how little progress is being made in toppling Neegan.

I'm not accusing the writers of the following yet, but I'm developing a sinking suspicion that they're keeping the number of Savior combatants so amorphous so they can just keep having more bundles of 15-20 Saviors pop up at this or that locale for as long as they like. Which won't dry up until Neegan is confronted and dealt with. Anyone else feeling a similar vibe?

[MinionZombie]

When it comes to numbers of 'background extras' and 'bit parts' in a whole bunch of TV series there's always going to be an element of convenience for the writers and production crew. These aren't your lead characters, but they inhabit the world. There are various Alexandrians who are background figures in shots, and we've had plenty of people from their ranks get bumped off along the way. It'd be a logistical and practical nightmare trying to wrangle all of them accurately across multiple seasons. This is just something we have to let go and suspend disbelief over as it affects many TV shows of this nature. It's why in films like John Wick you have a lot of goons wearing similar clothes or - more importantly - masks to cover their faces. The reason being that the stunt crew is made up of only so many people, so you've got to disguise that fact.

Another example, in this very episode of TWD in fact, is when the walkers roll down the hill - as seen on Talking Dead they used a handful of the same performers, but redressed them for different camera set ups to make it look like more walkers were tumbling down.

As for the Saviours' numbers, there's an element of us the viewers being kept in the dark so we get a little bit of the Team Rick experience of not knowing for sure. With a network of outposts spreading far and wide, they'll have a good number. I, too, have wondered about their numbers in certain scenes were lots of them are getting dealt with - but I'm willing to suspend disbelief for the above reasons.

That's my take, anyway.

...

The walker herd being led to the Sanctuary? I considered it more of a 'siege' idea - you basically contain the main base by surrounding it with walkers. The base gets locked down - nobody in, nobody out. The outer fence at the front has been breached by the RV bomb, but the general integrity of the building is very solid and defendable.

Of course, it would help if they communicated a few of these decisions a little better in the script so the internal logic was more clear to viewers.

[Moon Knight]

That same thought crossed my mind about the Saviors numbers. It’s almost comical at this moment. It’s like how a video game constantly spawns enemies so the player can grind some experience levels. It is what it is but I’m just suspending disbelief and putting faith into the numerous outpost containing pockets of Saviors.

[JDP]

That same thought crossed my mind about the Saviors numbers. It’s almost comical at this moment. It’s like how a video game constantly spawns enemies so the player can grind some experience levels. It is what it is but I’m just suspending disbelief and putting faith into the numerous outpost containing pockets of Saviors.

My impression from the episodes since the Saviors were introduced in the show is that they have a very sizable army, distributed around several areas. Certainly the largest group of people we have seen in the show so far. The "numbers" issue has been brought up a couple of times in the show, the latest one being when Negan boasted that Rick does not have the numbers for this fight, implying his "piss patrol" will eventually lose. Also, if those garbage people are still upholding their agreement with Negan, that further inflates the ranks of the Saviors as well.

[MinionZombie]

My impression from the episodes since the Saviors were introduced in the show is that they have a very sizable army, distributed around several areas. Certainly the largest group of people we have seen in the show so far. The "numbers" issue has been brought up a couple of times in the show, the latest one being when Negan boasted that Rick does not have the numbers for this fight, implying his "piss patrol" will eventually lose. Also, if those garbage people are still upholding their agreement with Negan, that further inflates the ranks of the Saviors as well.

And similarly with the trash heap wankers - do we know how many they've got. We saw a bunch of them form the circle around our gang, but we don't know if that was them all or not (I'd imagine there'd be more of them hidden within the trash piles or out scavenging).

Ultimately there is the practicalities of production - you can only afford to pay a certain number of extras in any given episode, more for some, less for others, depending on the other demands of the script.

There is an inherent issue with the sheer size of the cast now. We've got some good additions from other groups - e.g. Gregory, Jesus, Ezekiel, Jerry, Negan, Simon - as additional big names, and there's a few familiar faces (e.g. the lady with the bow & arrow for the Kingdom), who I would like a little bit more characterisation afforded in little fits and starts generally - but, again, the constraints of an episode's structure does battle with this sort of thing. If they had time to improv certain things you could flesh out some of the supporting players a bit more effectively BUT with them having to do feature film scale set pieces plus all the story stuff inside 8 production days, it's a tough ask to filter in little bits of this and that. It would be nice to work some of these bit players into the orbits of the bigger characters a bit more (like they did with Morgan and the blonde haired young guy with the little brother), but to also manage a bit more of it outside of the episode in which they did. :D

Affording Eric and Aaron some good screen time at the tree - which ultimately paid of handsomely with that wonderful scene of Eric as a walker shambling off to join the herd in the distance - was in itself not a problem. The problem was that Eric hadn't been given enough screen time generally. However, compare it to supporting players like Denise and some of them get a good bit of integration ... however, circling back to the sheer size of the cast, I certainly don't envy the writers having to juggle all those intersecting characters across sixteen episodes per season with some arcs coming and going across seasons, with further plots dipping in and out of several seasons. It'll be a complex undertaking ... circling back to the 'Negan needed some cover to hide behind' issue of 8x01, the TWD writing staff could use someone whose sole job was to specifically look for all the 'small issues and moments', who would make very minor tweaks to resolve slip ups that can distract the audience to a disproportionate degree, and would suggest small character beats for the supporting players using brief and effective bits of characterisation to give you a sense of someone while not necessarily giving them a load of screen time (which would take away from our beloved leads). A great example of giving a supporting player plenty of on-screen value and memorable moments is Gerry. :)

[kidgloves]

Enjoyed this episode as well. Balls on Gregory. Actors doing a fine job. Not missing Negan strangely.

[Moon Knight]

Enjoyed this episode as well. Balls on Gregory. Actors doing a fine job. Not missing Negan strangely.

Negan, Dwight, Simon, Eugene, Michonne, Rosita, Gabriel, and Carl all barely had screen time. Most dude to real life commitments.

We haven’t even seen Jadis and her people yet.

I also don’t mind but I fear bottle episodes coming soon.

Like I said before, Xander Berkeley is doing Gregory some amazing justice. He’s so hateable but really enjoyable.

[MinionZombie]

Negan, Dwight, Simon, Eugene, Michonne, Rosita, Gabriel, and Carl all barely had screen time. Most dude to real life commitments.

We haven’t even seen Jadis and her people yet.

I also don’t mind but I fear bottle episodes coming soon.

Like I said before, Xander Berkeley is doing Gregory some amazing justice. He’s so hateable but really enjoyable.

1) The trouble with having such a vast cast of characters, and when you've got so many it's unfair to hold them 'hostage' to just your show when they're not in every episode. It's one of those awkward practical things, unfortunately.

2) No bad thing. :elol::elol::elol:

3) Hmmm ... both Gimple and Nicotero have stated that the structure of this season was going to be different to previous seasons, so I'd hope that the volume of "bottle" episodes particularly exhibited in Season 7 won't be returning. "Bottle" episodes aren't bad in and of themselves, but when they're overused (which is very easy to do) they become a problem. I'd be fine with a Negan origin story episode, for instance.

4) Berkeley is nailing the role, absolutely agreed on that, and he's so entertaining to watch as Gregory. The Gregory/Maggie stuff in the comics is one of my favourite plotlines, so I'm stoked about seeing it all play out on screen.

[Moon Knight]

Some of the best episodes were bottle episodes, heck, I believe Morgan was in all of them with the exception of “The Grove”.
It becomes an issue with me when they put together a structure like season 7. Big episode then bottle episodes until the last couple episodes. F that.

I believe when the story shifts back to the Sanctuary the story will stay there the entire episode.

[shootemindehead]

Better episode over all this one. Some nice action and the poor old gay lads having to deal with some awfulness stole the show. The scene where Eric is walking off to his new buddies was quite well done I thought. Plus, did he say that it was Aaron that shot him? :(

Not too sure about the 'They Live' style scrap between Morgan and Jesus though. But, Jesus hase some moves.

Well...after all, he IS Jesus.

Amen.

[MinionZombie]

Better episode over all this one. Some nice action and the poor old gay lads having to deal with some awfulness stole the show. The scene where Eric is walking off to his new buddies was quite well done I thought. Plus, did he say that it was Aaron that shot him? :(

No, Aaron was saying sorry because he convinced Eric to join the war effort. Eric had previously been more of a 'hang back and let the others get on with it' mindset, but eventually the need to take on the Saviours became too great and Aaron convinced him of that - so, to Aaron, he is the reason Eric got shot even though he didn't actually do it himself.

[shootemindehead]

Ah right.

You must take notes when you watch this stuff. :p

[MinionZombie]

Ah right.

You must take notes when you watch this stuff. :p

hehe, nope ... I miss plenty of things first time around as my mind has a general habit of wandering. Talking Dead helps solidify certain things, but I'd remembered that Aaron/Eric thing from beforehand. :)