TWD 8x05 "The Big Scary U" episode discussion... **SPOILERS*

[MinionZombie]

Please keep all talk of episode 8x05 "The Big Scary U" specifically inside this thread.

If you have a theory for a following episode, please use the "spoiler tags" (visit the HPOTD FAQ to find out how to use them if you don't already know).

Similarly, if you're going to discuss plot points from the comic book, please use "spoiler tags" - not everyone is up-to-date on them, and some people don't read them at all.

Enjoy!

Directed by: Michael E. Satrazemis
Written by: Story by : Scott M. Gimple & David Leslie Johnson & Angela Kang, Teleplay by : David Leslie Johnson & Angela Kang

https://dailydead.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/TWD-805-02.jpg


With war raging all around him, we get a close look at Negan and the lives of the Saviors during the conflict through a familiar set of eyes.

[facestabber]

Well heck I enjoyed that one. Anyone notice detail on desk that Negan sat at? Minor detail but it showed Negans constant Lucille strikes to the top.

[MinionZombie]

A rather good episode there, I feel. Lot's going on - Gabriel/Negan, Rick/Daryl, the 'crumbling Soviet regime' style troubles going on inside the Sanctuary (workers/government, paranoia, wavering allegiance), and Eugene's cottoning on to Dwight.

Plus - has Gabriel been bitten? He's all feverish in cell #2, but we've not seen a bite. With all the talk of a 'purposeful death', I'm wondering if he'll be getting snuffed out on the show.
COMICS SPOILER:
It'd certainly be a better death than he got in the comics - half-falling off a ladder and getting munched by a walker herd? Talk about a let down!

So yeah, quite a satisfying episode, this one. Loads of stuff to chew on and with a few different strands going on here and there it kept the pace going nicely. I see it was also 10 minutes longer than the past couple of episodes. Lots of meat on the bones in this one.


Well heck I enjoyed that one. Anyone notice detail on desk that Negan sat at? Minor detail but it showed Negans constant Lucille strikes to the top.

Aye, I saw that. Nifty detail. Clearly they've had a few of these discussions around the big table and he's had to law down the law.

[JDP]

Gabriel should have shot Negan right after his "confession", when he handed the gun back to him. Another golden opportunity to deliver a devastating blow to the Saviors wasted.

[MinionZombie]

Plenty going on in this episode - such as Simon vs Negan - and we saw exactly how the leadership of the Sanctuary works, and quite importantly, the scary side of Negan. In fact, we saw several sides of Negan - the charming rogue, the dangerous villain, and shades of who he once was during his confessional moments with Gabriel. We also got to see his thinking on the other side of the face-off. The cover issue for Negan still exists (a few tweaks previously mentioned in the 8x01 thread would have helped solidify it), but both sides were just there to talk (mostly).

Interesting detail - the one Lieutenant (forget his name) who mumbles "Jesus" on the way out the door to meet Rick said the same thing when exiting to meet the workers. Scuppered from all sides! :lol: There's a potential ally in that dude, perhaps ... but will he survive?


Gabriel should have shot Negan right after his "confession", when he handed the gun back to him. Another golden opportunity to deliver a devastating blow to the Saviors wasted.

:rolleyes:

He did try and kill Negan ... but then they had to work together after their confessional revealed themselves to each other. There's more to Negan than just being a baddie. I guess Gabriel wasn't so ready to die after all, but now he's seemingly got a mission in mind to get the Doctor back to the Hilltop for Maggie.

...

TWD 8x05 Memes:


https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-NNF8h5sjoKs/WhMM3v4LGPI/AAAAAAAAFf8/3X6W4m97sIoST7Nzqh5-xRXSBud5B7WoACLcBGAs/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_8_Meme_Gregory_Saviors_Dic k_Rhetoric_8x05_DeadShed_sm.jpg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xL1aBRr-KeI/WhMM00XiLZI/AAAAAAAAFf4/xC_guQ9dLPEoKA_X9NI5IeSwZkQol0zgACLcBGAs/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_8_Meme_Eugene_Pun_Intended _8x05_DeadShed.jpg



:)

[JDP]

:rolleyes:

He did try and kill Negan ...

:rolleyes:

The more reason for him to do it again, and this time he would not have missed, as Negan wasn't doing anything to stop him. After killing Negan all he had to do is hide until someone came to clear up the zombie horde, or hide long enough for the zombies to "thin out" a bit for him to make a run for it, or just use the "guts & blood" camouflage trick. He did not really need Negan to escape from there. Now Negan is still alive and he is a prisoner.

Also revealing in this episode: from the behavior of the trapped Savior elite, we can now plainly see how devastating for them would be to lose Negan's leadership. There is internal strife, not only among the Savior elite but also among them and the "workers". Negan's death would send all these factions into turmoil, a sort of Savior "civil war".

[MinionZombie]

Also revealing in this episode: from the behavior of the trapped Savior elite, we can now plainly see how devastating for them would be to lose Negan's leadership. There is internal strife, not only among the Savior elite but also among them and the "workers". Negan's death would send all these factions into turmoil, a sort of Savior "civil war".

If anything it shows exactly why Negan is needed. He said it himself, the previous 'leader' of the Sanctuary had nothing under control and it was a free for all. He brought order to their little group - brutal order, but order nonetheless. Civil war inside the Sanctuary is a major gamble for everyone, you could just as easily lose as gain. Tipping over the edge from relative order in the society of the Sanctuary (where it's that or desperately surviving in the outside world on your own) isn't a decision that'd be taken lightly by anyone. The Lieutenants most of all would want to keep Negan in power as the status quo remains, they don't risk being executed amidst the chaos, and relative calm within the Sanctuary reigns (All Out War aside, of course :lol: ). Plus, we saw how quickly the irate workers cow-towed once Negan showed up - God bless you, Negan, they said.

- - - Updated - - -

They seem to be dropping in various little nods and winks to season 1 so far this season - there was another one in this episode that I missed until just now: the choke hold line. In Season 1 Rick gets Daryl into a choke hold and Daryl complains that they're illegal - in this episode it was the other way around. :cool:

[Moon Knight]

Solid episode.

Negan’s backstory but this early was a bit surprising. Really enjoyed his convo with Gabriel.

Glad to see they brought Arat back. I was beginning to think they dropped the character. I had totally forgot about Laura though haha.

Loved the extended cold open.

[Neil]

If anything it shows exactly why Negan is needed. He said it himself, the previous 'leader' of the Sanctuary had nothing under control and it was a free for all. He brought order to their little group - brutal order, but order nonetheless.
Yes... The script was working well there! The fact the brutal regime imposed by Negan almost makes sense when you look at it in the right way? And the lovely touch when someone shouted "God bless you Negan..."

Now that was a good episode!


ps: I had to duck out of the room for a second... Did I miss a revelation about Negan's (first) wife?

[MinionZombie]

Another couple of things from this episode - the mention from Negan about Simon and "sliding back" (I wonder if there's some juicy backstory there that we'll get more of - was Simon the previous leader of The Sanctuary?) ... and, of course, what's up with the helicopter, and who is the person spying on Rick from far away?


ps: I had to duck out of the room for a second... Did I miss a revelation about Negan's (first) wife?

Can't you just pause the episode? :p

She had cancer IIRC, and he was cheating on her during that time. Then the apocalypse came along - while she was still sick - she died and reanimated, but he couldn't put her down.

[Neil]

Another couple of things from this episode - the mention from Negan about Simon and "sliding back" (I wonder if there's some juicy backstory there that we'll get more of - was Simon the previous leader of The Sanctuary?) ... and, of course, what's up with the helicopter, and who is the person spying on Rick from far away?



Can't you just pause the episode? :p

She had cancer IIRC, and he was cheating on her during that time. Then the apocalypse came along - while she was still sick - she died and reanimated, but he couldn't put her down.

I actually re-watched the scene just now :) Yes, it was that he couldn't "put here down" :)

[MinionZombie]

I actually re-watched the scene just now :) Yes, it was that he couldn't "put here down" :)

Interesting link to Morgan there, too, as he also couldn't put his wife down. Goes to show that even villains are human and not necessarily too far adrift of you and your allies. As Rick has been saying, in this episode specifically, they'll have to work with these people once the war is over. They can't create an enemy out of them and they have to be better than the Saviours' leadership/government.

All Out War is like a mini mirror to the wars of the pre-ZA. The communities are like countries, and the Sanctuary/Saviours are like a rogue state under authoritarian rule with an innocent populace crushed under the boot of a government that represents all they've ever known. The parallels drawn in this episode were really fun to watch.

The fact that Negan "worked with kids" explains some of his presentation, too. The playful tone, the things he says, the jibes and such - makes a lot of sense. I wonder if we'll get an explanation for the Heapsters "up up up" bullshit, though? Perhaps they're a group of Beyond Thunderdome superfans who were on their way to a Mad Max convention when the ZA broke out? :elol:

[Moon Knight]

Negan’s backstory really paints him in a different light. I really hope we get the actual story that just came out via a flashback episode written by Gimple; like he did for Morgan. Not anytime soon, though.

I believe Simon and Negan do have a bit of interesting history that hasn’t been told yet. That “back sliding” line wasn’t thrown out for no reason.

[MinionZombie]

Negan’s backstory really paints him in a different light. I really hope we get the actual story that just came out via a flashback episode written by Gimple; like he did for Morgan. Not anytime soon, though.

I believe Simon and Negan do have a bit of interesting history that hasn’t been told yet. That “back sliding” line wasn’t thrown out for no reason.

Hmmm ... now that Negan has told us a bunch of stuff, I'm not so sure a Negan backstory episode would necessarily happen. But, maybe you could have an episode that showed flashbacks to the Sanctuary during that chaos and how it came to be - perhaps Simon was in charge back then, and we'd get to see how the power shift happened. Or maybe not and we just crack on.

[Moon Knight]

Hmmm ... now that Negan has told us a bunch of stuff, I'm not so sure a Negan backstory episode would necessarily happen. But, maybe you could have an episode that showed flashbacks to the Sanctuary during that chaos and how it came to be - perhaps Simon was in charge back then, and we'd get to see how the power shift happened. Or maybe not and we just crack on.

This did this same “confession” scene in the comic and still released a proper backstory. They gave us hints this past episode but there is still lots of interesting character development that hasn’t been fully revealed yet.

Also, the way they are spreading this one day across a single half season tells me they would definitely fill out a season with a single Negan backstory episode.

[MinionZombie]

This did this same “confession” scene in the comic and still released a proper backstory. They gave us hints this past episode but there is still lots of interesting character development that hasn’t been fully revealed yet.

Also, the way they are spreading this one day across a single half season tells me they would definitely fill out a season with a single Negan backstory episode.

Fair points. Hmmm... *scratches chin* :shifty: As always, I guess, time will tell.

[Moon Knight]

Fair points. Hmmm... *scratches chin* :shifty: As always, I guess, time will tell.

I believe you were asking who the person was that was watching Rick at the end? That should be a heapster. Definitely looked like a watch out for Jadis.

A very interesting theory about Simon “backsliding” I watched online. No spoilers but I know some don’t like reading theory’s in case they come true.

When the Oceanside claimed that Negan killed all the boys and men, the belief is that it was Simon that murdererd everyone and not Negan himself. Considering Simon’s remark about taking a flyer this past episode and murdeing everyone in the Hilltop, makes sense he would do something like that. Negan’s response further strengthens that theory. I always thought that Oceanside story didn’t really fit into Negan’s character, he wouldn’t just mass kill like that; that never sat right with me and I hope this is the case! Makes sense.

[MinionZombie]

A very interesting theory about Simon “backsliding” I watched online. No spoilers but I know some don’t like reading theory’s in case they come true.

When the Oceanside claimed that Negan killed all the boys and men, the belief is that it was Simon that murdererd everyone and not Negan himself. Considering Simon’s remark about taking a flyer this past episode and murdeing everyone in the Hilltop, makes sense he would do something like that. Negan’s response further strengthens that theory. I always thought that Oceanside story didn’t really fit into Negan’s character, he wouldn’t just mass kill like that; that never sat right with me and I hope this is the case! Makes sense.

Ooh!!! That's a great theory! I hope that's the case. Your comments regarding it make total sense, too, and I agree something always felt a bit 'off' about the 'kill all the men' aspect of Oceanside. Considering that "we're all Negan", then Oceanside could easily be talking about a different man ... I can't recall if they ever namechecked "Negan" or just the Saviours generally, though, but either way it's entirely possible that it was Simon in charge of that operation.

With Simon's "thick & veiny" proposal as well as Negan's clear statement of people being a valuable resource, this theory makes total sense! I hope something like this comes into play. Might we see a flashback or the 'backsliding' event? Sometimes it'd be nice to get a 'cold open flashback' before the opening credits roll, you know? Just a glimpse of something, not a whole episode, but just a taste of past events - the fallout from which is then felt during the rest of the episode. :)

As for the lookout being a Heapster - makes sense. I think they're back next week. Hopefully they won't be as irritating as they were in Season 7B (episode nine or ten, IIRC, with all that "up up up" bullshit.)

[Moon Knight]

Ooh!!! That's a great theory! I hope that's the case. Your comments regarding it make total sense, too, and I agree something always felt a bit 'off' about the 'kill all the men' aspect of Oceanside. Considering that "we're all Negan", then Oceanside could easily be talking about a different man ... I can't recall if they ever namechecked "Negan" or just the Saviours generally, though, but either way it's entirely possible that it was Simon in charge of that operation.

With Simon's "thick & veiny" proposal as well as Negan's clear statement of people being a valuable resource, this theory makes total sense! I hope something like this comes into play. Might we see a flashback or the 'backsliding' event? Sometimes it'd be nice to get a 'cold open flashback' before the opening credits roll, you know? Just a glimpse of something, not a whole episode, but just a taste of past events - the fallout from which is then felt during the rest of the episode. :)

As for the lookout being a Heapster - makes sense. I think they're back next week. Hopefully they won't be as irritating as they were in Season 7B (episode nine or ten, IIRC, with all that "up up up" bullshit.)

Yeah, man, I agree. A cold open would be great. The Saviors all being Negan will give a good reason for the Oceanside not knowing who Negan truly is. The Hilltop was working for Negan for a while too and Jesus didn’t even know who Negan really was.

I’m not a fan of that group either but I must admit, I kinda dig Jadis.

[shootemindehead]

One of the better episodes no doubt. Putting some meat on the bones of a few characters. We need more episodes like this.

So Negan couldn't put his wife down and used to work with kids (or so he says). He's still a complete sociopath that needs to be put down himself. However, as the episode clearly showed, simply whacking him will lead to more antagonism from the "workers" who live under the Saviours "protection". It's a more delicate matter. I know what goes down for Negan in the comic and I think that the show will go that way too. But, I expect the journey to be a little different.

I still hate that fucking zombie guts "get outta jail card", though. :mad: The Saviours meeting is mulling over how to get some people past the horde to get help from the outposts and in the next scene Negan and Gabe start wiping magic zombie shit all over them and walk straight through. Just dumb.

[Moon Knight]

Man, I hate that zombie gut trick too. No bueno.

[MinionZombie]

...and in the next scene Negan and Gabe start wiping magic zombie shit all over them and walk straight through. Just dumb.

It didn't go according to plan though, did it? They got spotted by the walkers and attacked.

Also, the thing that Gabriel mentioned about the putrid smell and sheer awfulness of what they were doing (simply: how utterly repulsive it was) was a good way of suggesting why they don't just do it all the time. Would you want to be covered in rotting flesh and zombie turds - which could seriously harm your constitution - if you didn't have to be? We saw in 1x02 how gross it was (Glenn vomited), but I would have liked a bit more of that in future uses of it.

Thankfully TWD is far more rare in its use of this mechanic - the same cannot be said of FTWD where Nick is constantly slathering that shit all over himself with barely the blink of an eye! It's a conceit that has some problems, but other conceits in the franchise have their issues too. It can't be perfect, unfortunately, there's always going to be a logic hole somewhere in anything you come up with.

[shootemindehead]

It didn't go according to plan though, did it? They got spotted by the walkers and attached.

Sure. But the point is that at the meeting, the group are at an impasse, even suggesting that they sacrifice some "workers" in an effort to get people through to the outposts! With Eugene saying how that would fail.

Yet, in the next scene - zombie gut magic...

Terrible stuff altogether. Just a real lack of foresight and a really poor device that should have been quietly dropped a long time ago.

It's a dreadful mechanic that simply wasn't smoke tested and I know I go on about all the time here, but it doesn't half bug the arse off of me. It basically rendered a good "debate" scene for this episode into a farce in one fell swoop.


Thankfully TWD is far more rare in its use of this mechanic - the same cannot be said of FTWD where Nick is constantly slathering that shit all over himself with barely the blink of an eye! It's a conceit that has some problems, but other conceits in the franchise have their issues too. It can't be perfect, unfortunately, there's always going to be a logic hole somewhere in anything you come up with.

It's one of the reasons why I don't watch 'Fear the Walking Dead' any more.

When you introduce something like that to a long running story, you need to stop and think about the impact it's going to have in possible future scenarios, where your characters are facing a desperate situation. If you have a "get outta jail" card work like that once, then you HAVE to have all of the time, otherwise people will, quite rightly, call your story out on it. Kirkman never did this and neither did the producers of the shows.

Sure, it's disgusting (I've smelt rotting flesh up close - it ain't pretty). But it's been shown to work in previous episodes with no side effects (Although maybe Gabe's fever is going to alter that). So in order to avoid being zombie nosh, people would be readily doing it all of the time to get out of tight situations, without mulling over other options. They'd easily risk nausea, sickness, disgust every single time, as opposed to being dinner just the once.

But, aside from that, it's just dumb. The idea that a rotting zombie, that doesn't even breathe, can "smell" a human (which is the inference, although this hasn't been fully established) is something so thick, it's like a 5 year old's idea.