TWD 8x06 "The King, the Widow, and Rick" episode discussion... **SPOILERS*

[MinionZombie]

Please keep all talk of episode 8x06 "The King, the Widow, and Rick" specifically inside this thread.

If you have a theory for a following episode, please use the "spoiler tags" (visit the HPOTD FAQ to find out how to use them if you don't already know).

Similarly, if you're going to discuss plot points from the comic book, please use "spoiler tags" - not everyone is up-to-date on them, and some people don't read them at all.

Enjoy!

Directed by: John Polson
Written by: Angela Kang & Corey Reed


With things looking up for Rick and the group, an argument breaks out at the Hilltop; the consequences of the decision are life versus death.

https://dailydead.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/TWD-806-03.jpg

[Harleydude666]

I’ll start it off without any spoilers. Seriously???? That whole Carl story line???? He’s now gonna put his life at stake for a guy he just met because his mother felt it was the right thing to do????? For something so menial, and while he’s in the middle of fighting a war???? Good God the writing is really pathetic and picking up steam by the episode.

I’m losing hope really fast now. How does Gimple and Nicotero not see what’s happening here? I can’t believe they can’t see it or even be on board with this

[facestabber]

This episode is a set up for the future. Not special but it was fun to watch. Up until the point they took Fukn Morgan off TWD to fear!!!!! Get the absolute fuck the hell outta hear. I haven't watched fear since 2-3. Morgan needs to be with Rick. GD it all to hell. I don't like this at all.

[Moon Knight]

This episode is a set up for the future. Not special but it was fun to watch. Up until the point they took Fukn Morgan off TWD to fear!!!!! Get the absolute fuck the hell outta hear. I haven't watched fear since 2-3. Morgan needs to be with Rick. GD it all to hell. I don't like this at all.

Not much story left with Morgan anyway. He’s lived way past his expiration date and it’s finally time.

Now, with that said, I’m very curious on how they plan on explaining this because it doesn’t really make any sense.

- - - Updated - - -


I’ll start it off without any spoilers. Seriously???? That whole Carl story line???? He’s now gonna put his life at stake for a guy he just met because his mother felt it was the right thing to do????? For something so menial, and while he’s in the middle of fighting a war???? Good God the writing is really pathetic and picking up steam by the episode.

I’m losing hope really fast now. How does Gimple and Nicotero not see what’s happening here? I can’t believe they can’t see it or even be on board with this

It wasn’t that bad. Last season did worse.

[MinionZombie]

Yeah, kind of a setup episode for what's to come - getting chess pieces into new places to continue forward. Gregory is always a good time, him snivelling while getting thrown into the makeshift prison was good. Not sure what to think of the new chatty Saviour guy who knocked the rock out of that long-haired asshole's hands ... the long haired one needs snuffing out. Looking forward to that happening some time. :elol:

What's with the naked sculpture work? As if the Heapsters couldn't get any weirder. :p

The dump truck crash was too convenient for my taste. How come Daryl and Tara ended up in the same place, with a dump truck, and hit it at the exact right moment? I liked the idea of the speaker truck - but being that it's been taken out of the running, it's ultimately filler. However, it's not like TWD is the first show in history to have filler, is it?

On the plus side, I'm really enjoying all the Maggie/Gregory stuff.

Am I correct in remembering that they mentioned a while back that they'd be introducing a Muslim character to the show? I assume that'll be Sadiq, then? There'll be plenty of good people out there in the ZA still, so it makes sense to approach possible allies from time-to-time. Not really sure why Carl's chosen this point in time to go yomping off for this mission when he could be at Alexandria helping to hold down the fort just in case.

...

So Morgan is the crossover character? Eh? So we're losing a favourite character from the main show to go over to the weak spin-off?! I don't understand how this is gonna work. Is there gonna be a dramatic time jump in FTWD with a major move cross-country to boot? I've felt more and more that Fear is a drain on TWD - sapping the attention of producers (and while Gimple is only tangentially involved, one single minute spent working on Fear is to the detriment of the main show). I think that Fear is also adding an element of 'zombie fatigue' to AMC - especially when the show Fear just before premiering TWD.

The better thing would have been to do the spin off after the main show had completed its run, so the focus wouldn't be split both behind the camera and on the sofas in viewers' homes. My issues with Fear have been aired before here on HPOTD. After initially enjoying it, they squandered the entire purpose of the show to simply become 'a poor man's TWD in another location'. :( There were so many opportunities to do something different with Fear, but they've utterly wasted that chance. Now it's sucking away Morgan? Jog on. :mad:


I’m losing hope really fast now. How does Gimple and Nicotero not see what’s happening here? I can’t believe they can’t see it or even be on board with this

And what is happening? Sure, there's a few iffy bits here and there - as there have been in previous seasons (and, indeed, all shows have their iffy bits - some certainly more than others - but TWD gets far more right than wrong). I'm really struggling to understand many of the complaints of those who seem so keen on hating the show at the moment, the reasons seem kinda vague ... general fatigue? :confused: Might it be more an individual's response more than the show itself?

I feel that Season 8 has so far been stronger than Season 7. It's not perfect, I'm not saying that, and some wobbles could have so easily been side-stepped, but over-the-piece it's going well, I think.

[Harleydude666]

Yeah, kind of a setup episode for what's to come - getting chess pieces into new places to continue forward. Gregory is always a good time, him snivelling while getting thrown into the makeshift prison was good. Not sure what to think of the new chatty Saviour guy who knocked the rock out of that long-haired asshole's hands ... the long haired one needs snuffing out. Looking forward to that happening some time. :elol:

What's with the naked sculpture work? As if the Heapsters couldn't get any weirder. :p

The dump truck crash was too convenient for my taste. How come Daryl and Tara ended up in the same place, with a dump truck, and hit it at the exact right moment? I liked the idea of the speaker truck - but being that it's been taken out of the running, it's ultimately filler. However, it's not like TWD is the first show in history to have filler, is it?

On the plus side, I'm really enjoying all the Maggie/Gregory stuff.

Am I correct in remembering that they mentioned a while back that they'd be introducing a Muslim character to the show? I assume that'll be Sadiq, then? There'll be plenty of good people out there in the ZA still, so it makes sense to approach possible allies from time-to-time. Not really sure why Carl's chosen this point in time to go yomping off for this mission when he could be at Alexandria helping to hold down the fort just in case.

...

So Morgan is the crossover character? Eh? So we're losing a favourite character from the main show to go over to the weak spin-off?! I don't understand how this is gonna work. Is there gonna be a dramatic time jump in FTWD with a major move cross-country to boot? I've felt more and more that Fear is a drain on TWD - sapping the attention of producers (and while Gimple is only tangentially involved, one single minute spent working on Fear is to the detriment of the main show). I think that Fear is also adding an element of 'zombie fatigue' to AMC - especially when the show Fear just before premiering TWD.

The better thing would have been to do the spin off after the main show had completed its run, so the focus wouldn't be split both behind the camera and on the sofas in viewers' homes. My issues with Fear have been aired before here on HPOTD. After initially enjoying it, they squandered the entire purpose of the show to simply become 'a poor man's TWD in another location'. :( There were so many opportunities to do something different with Fear, but they've utterly wasted that chance. Now it's sucking away Morgan? Jog on. :mad:



And what is happening? Sure, there's a few iffy bits here and there - as there have been in previous seasons (and, indeed, all shows have their iffy bits - some certainly more than others - but TWD gets far more right than wrong). I'm really struggling to understand many of the complaints of those who seem so keen on hating the show at the moment, the reasons seem kinda vague ... general fatigue? :confused: Might it be more an individual's response more than the show itself?

I feel that Season 8 has so far been stronger than Season 7. It's not perfect, I'm not saying that, and some wobbles could have so easily been side-stepped, but over-the-piece it's going well, I think.

I’m not a hater, still wanna love the show. I even thought the episode was good and a change of pace but Carl is just way too smart for that bullshit and it ruined it for me. Smart characters doing dumb things seems to be the mantra this season

[JDP]

Was it smart of Rick to go in person to try to cut a new deal with the Garbage Gang? First, Rick & company know well by now how treacherous this bunch are. They can't be trusted. Second, even if Rick has some sort of "master plan" involving these scoundrels, why not send someone else as representative for the negotiations? Rick must have known that they would very likely pull some dirty trick again, like capturing him. Rick is too important for the alliance and has a price on his head (Negan wants him, "alive, if possible; if not, wasted!", to quote Masai from the Gramercy Riffs.) Too risky for him to go pay a visit to these scumbags.

[Harleydude666]

Was it smart of Rick to go in person to try to cut a new deal with the Garbage Gang? First, Rick & company know well by now how treacherous this bunch are. They can't be trusted. Second, even if Rick has some sort of "master plan" involving these scoundrels, why not send someone else as representative for the negotiations? Rick must have known that they would very likely pull some dirty trick again, like capturing him. Rick is too important for the alliance and has a price on his head (Negan wants him, "alive, if possible; if not, wasted!", to quote Masai from the Gramercy Riffs.) Too risky for him to go pay a visit to these scumbags.

Another terrible writing plot, smart characters now doing stupid things seem to be the theme of the show now

[Moon Knight]

It’s quite clear Carl isn’t the same character from the comics, they been changed directions. Him helping out a starving stranger isn’t out of character. He even quoted what Lori said she wanted of him before she died.

Now, Rick’s plan is very questionable. I’m gonna reserve judgement until I see how this “master plan” unfolds. Even Norman Reedus said that Rick’s plan is too convoluted and overly complicated. Daryl’s character is showing frustration with it and others are starting to do their own thing. Again, it’s what I like. I really dislike super perfect characters. Rick does a lot of stupid shit and even he would admit he’s not the best leader.

[MinionZombie]

Rick does a lot of stupid shit and even he would admit he’s not the best leader.

Think back to him in the first episode - a Sheriff, so some responsibility, but with no aspirations to any other role with more power/control/responsibility - who is struggling to keep his marriage together. A partially successful man, you could say, who is thrust into an extraordinary situation where he is forced to take control and do his best.

Yeah - will hold judgment on the Heapsters part of the plan until it all unfolds. I figure he must have communicated it through the letters etc?

Seeing the dark side of Daryl come forth is entertaining, too. Now we've got two favourites who are away from supervision going into dark territory for revenge over the same casualty on their side.

Rosita was a smidge pouty in this episode, you know, a bit petulant. I'd like her to regain some of her cool and react out of emotion a bit less.

[Moon Knight]

Think back to him in the first episode - a Sheriff, so some responsibility, but with no aspirations to any other role with more power/control/responsibility - who is struggling to keep his marriage together. A partially successful man, you could say, who is thrust into an extraordinary situation where he is forced to take control and do his best.

Yeah - will hold judgment on the Heapsters part of the plan until it all unfolds. I figure he must have communicated it through the letters etc?

Seeing the dark side of Daryl come forth is entertaining, too. Now we've got two favourites who are away from supervision going into dark territory for revenge over the same casualty on their side.

Rosita was a smidge pouty in this episode, you know, a bit petulant. I'd like her to regain some of her cool and react out of emotion a bit less.

I’ll follow Rick anytime. No leader is perfect.

Trying to get the trash people on his side again is a bad move but I trust his instincts. Although, this is a time when they should just illuminate them instead of trying to recruit them again. Is it weird I find Jadis sexy, though?

Daryl’s group of rogues is really interesting but I’m gonna guess they won’t go all the way through with whatever careless plan the four come up with? Will all of them follow through? Hmm.

Rosita is still mad because she just got shot. My favorite Latina gets a pass but dropping the gun was stupid. C’mon now.

[shootemindehead]

FFS, did Rick just get himself captured by the garbage pail kids again? WTF? Just massacre those shit talking pricks and be done with it.

Plus I want to smack Michonne. Stupid clown. That was some thicko nonsense. Cop on.

On the + side, the Maggory scenes were pretty good, but why Greg is still breathing is beyond me. Even more seriously, that long haired prisoner needs to be off'd. If he escapes later to cause trouble further down the road, it'll just be another nail in this show's coffin. It's hard to be supportive of dumb situations like that.


Is it weird I find Jadis sexy, though?

No.

But why is she named after the white witch?

[Moon Knight]

FFS, did Rick just get himself captured by the garbage pail kids again? WTF? Just massacre those shit talking pricks and be done with it.

Plus I want to smack Michonne. Stupid clown. That was some thicko nonsense. Cop on.

On the + side, the Maggory scenes were pretty good, but why Greg is still breathing is beyond me. Even more seriously, that long haired prisoner needs to be off'd. If he escapes later to cause trouble further down the road, it'll just be another nail in this show's coffin. It's hard to be supportive of dumb situations like that.



No.

But why is she named after the white witch?

Good call didn’t even notice that.

As far as Michonne, they wanted to make her weak due to her beating so they wrote her as a clumsy mess. The sloppy fight was cool with me but most of those scenes just felt a bit off.

[MinionZombie]

Rosita is still mad because she just got shot. My favorite Latina gets a pass but dropping the gun was stupid. C’mon now.


As far as Michonne, they wanted to make her weak due to her beating so they wrote her as a clumsy mess. The sloppy fight was cool with me but most of those scenes just felt a bit off.

1) Yeah, dropping the gun? Come on. However - the RPG kill redeemed her. :elol:

2) Likewise. The 'fat lady' subplot felt a bit off to me as well in this episode. Didn't really go anywhere ... if the fat lady had got away it would have been more purposeful, but it didn't, so it was all wrapped up pretty damn quick. The convenient rubbish truck arrival of Daryl & Tara was too much a flight of fancy, as well. It's as if a subplot like this is compromised by the schedules of some of the actors involved. You've got some actors who are heavily dedicated to TWD, and others who have got a big opportunity in a movie somewhere and so off they go to that - but that means they are only available in certain blocks of time for TWD, and as such the story has to be worked around that, and so you can easily end up with a 'add-on' chunk of story that doesn't sit well enough with the main throughline of the plot. Thoughts?

Perhaps some of these 'going rogue' moments are troublesome because they come from a place that's too emotional for personal reasons (this is very much the case with Rosita, I feel), rather than from an emotional place that is based in the community at large - being stuck on the sidelines is going to be frustrating and you'll want to chip in, especially if you feel things aren't going quite as planned (the loss of The Kingdom), but it would sell better on screen if there was less selfishness involved. We've seen that a few times and it does grate sometimes. You've made it this far into the ZA, you should act smarter than this (and they've often shown that they are capable of being smarter than this). Now, sometimes it makes sense to show some hubris - e.g. Season 6B with Rick & Co arrogantly taking on The Saviours without a real plan. They made an assumption about who The Saviours were and paid a dear price ... but, as such, Rick waltzing in to the Heapster village alone (especially after their previous encounters not going particularly well) was questionable at best.

Let's see where it goes from here, if there really is a bigger plan at hand that we've not privy to just yet.

I'm generally okay with Carl going off to get Siddiq as it is a part of his character and the lessons from Lori etc ... my only issue is that he's supposed to be overseeing Alexandria. The timing of the two doesn't quite work strictly speaking, but oh well.

[Moon Knight]

That’s a problem with having such a big cast of characters. Both Negan and Michonne suffered this season because of movie roles. (The characters not the actors, good on them on getting work.) It’s pretty damn slick of them to come up with a entire first half only taking place in a couple days so it works. I see fans upset about this but honestly, I rather have 8 good episodes than one amazing premier followed by six episodes of filler.

I rather they gave Michonne and Rosita a story at Alexandria than forcing out into the world against Rick’s wishes. In the narrative, every time they leave like this NOTHING good ever comes from it; yet they keep doing it. Insanity.

That also goes to them penciling in Rosita dropping her gun so they can give her the RPG. Did she really need to drop her gun to get to that? Rosita of all people? Haha.

Aside from that, I’m pretty happy with this season so far. Episode six is usually always set up for the mid season finale and this episode as a whole worked for me. Not the best but I wasn’t expecting it to be.

Also, I agree about Carl. Good material but bad placement.

[MinionZombie]

The thing I like most about Carl is having to navigate through his formative years during this extraordinary (and extreme) scenario. We saw how easily it could go wrong - when he shot that teen boy from Woodbury while he was with Hershel in Season 3's finale, and we've seen how it can go well - his interaction with Edith, and realising there's more of a balance to be struck when dealing with problems in the ZA.

Rosita - they could have had it that the gun was shot out of her hand. I know it's a very close call, but it would have been better over all. In terms of 'in-show' time passing Rosita hasn't been out of the fight for long at all (a matter of days at most), so to sloppily lose her gun like that is a bit of a stretch. A near miss - perhaps even a graze to her hand/arm from a richochet bullet after it hits her gun - would have been better IMO. I did love the RPG kill - it's one of those moments when you're thinking "can they really?", but then they actually do and it's a hell of a lot of fun. :elol:

Also, Moon, I agree with you on the story structure vs cast availability. Makes much more sense to do the episodes over a very condensed time period so it's more sensible to not see certain characters for a few episodes at a time. It also gives the chance to insert other characters (such as Aaron) a bit more. But yes, the cast is vast, most definitely. Hopefully we can whittle it down to a more manageable 'big number' by the time All Out War is done and dusted. Getting a bit more juice out of lesser-seen supporting characters would help fill in some gaps while other players are away on other projects.

I see Jadis is wearing Rick's boots. Looking forward to seeing him take them back.

And where the hell is Heath? :lol: That character has really been a casualty of two things - the huge cast and the actor's film career success (good on him for that, btw). Kind of all came together to go against Heath ... now, what do you think should be done? Recast the role, or kill the character off?

[JDP]

I did love the RPG kill - it's one of those moments when you're thinking "can they really?", but then they actually do and it's a hell of a lot of fun. :elol:

The producers obviously have watched the cool & over-the-top final death scenes of Death Wish III and Death Wish IV:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQyrWf7wNT0


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L38d8P6Y8rU

[beat_truck]

A week or two ago, I was about to ask if I had missed something as I wasn't sure what happened to Heath. Did he just drive off into the sunset after the fight on the bridge near Oceanside?:rockbrow:

[kidgloves]

I see the Romulans were back.
Literally garbage.
I'm gonna hang on in there but it's becoming a chore to watch.
I think it needs a refresh, overhaul, something.

[Neil]

The dump truck crash was too convenient for my taste. How come Daryl and Tara ended up in the same place, with a dump truck, and hit it at the exact right moment? I liked the idea of the speaker truck - but being that it's been taken out of the running, it's ultimately filler.

Yeh, I rolled my eyes at that bit...

Would have prefered to have seen the girls fumbling over trying to get another grenade in the launcher, and just firing it off in time or something?

[MinionZombie]

I'm gonna hang on in there but it's becoming a chore to watch.

I just don't understand this whatsoever, personally. :confused:


Yeh, I rolled my eyes at that bit...

Would have prefered to have seen the girls fumbling over trying to get another grenade in the launcher, and just firing it off in time or something?

Yeah, that would have worked better - and then Michonne and Rosita could be assessing either the wreckage or the lock-up for supplies, then they hear an engine - scramble to defend themselves, but it turns out it's Daryl and Tara who happened to be somewhere nearby when they heard the explosion. That would have worked better. You don't get a cool crash out of it, but it would just be more believable.

But we shouldn't let small slip-ups like that detract from the overall, which is still good.

[DayoftheZ]

you're thinking "can they really?", but then they actually do and it's a hell of a lot of fun. :elol:

I love stuff like that because it appeals to the immature part of my personality and if you let go of that part of you, it's a sad day. I had the same reaction to the RPG kill than I did the tiger attack on Negan last year , I cheered, I punched the air and swore!!!

I didn't really mind the dumper truck think that much but it was as you say a bit clunky in its execution but it would IMO have been less believable that Rosita and Michonne would allow her to get back to the sanctuary.

I loved the whole releasing the spirits thing with Carl's new pal. We need more "they are us, and we are them" type moments in the show. In fact we have had way too few moments like Eric, Mearle or Amy rising to punch you in the heart in the whole run of the show.

Please kill all of the Garbage Gang asap, they add zero to the show and they are not believable as characters. Who would talk like that after only a couple of years, seriously.

[Moon Knight]

I just don't understand this whatsoever, personally. :confused:



Yeah, that would have worked better - and then Michonne and Rosita could be assessing either the wreckage or the lock-up for supplies, then they hear an engine - scramble to defend themselves, but it turns out it's Daryl and Tara who happened to be somewhere nearby when they heard the explosion. That would have worked better. You don't get a cool crash out of it, but it would just be more believable.

But we shouldn't let small slip-ups like that detract from the overall, which is still good.

I will never understand that.

[Neil]

I just don't understand this whatsoever, personally. :confused:



Yeah, that would have worked better - and then Michonne and Rosita could be assessing either the wreckage or the lock-up for supplies, then they hear an engine - scramble to defend themselves, but it turns out it's Daryl and Tara who happened to be somewhere nearby when they heard the explosion. That would have worked better. You don't get a cool crash out of it, but it would just be more believable.

But we shouldn't let small slip-ups like that detract from the overall, which is still good.

Other annoyance is - as with every episode they appear in - People who funny talk, as evolved backward they have, two years just after apocalyse...

Very very tossy IMHO :)

[MinionZombie]

I love stuff like that because it appeals to the immature part of my personality and if you let go of that part of you, it's a sad day. I had the same reaction to the RPG kill than I did the tiger attack on Negan last year , I cheered, I punched the air and swore!!!

I loved the whole releasing the spirits thing with Carl's new pal. We need more "they are us, and we are them" type moments in the show. In fact we have had way too few moments like Eric, Mearle or Amy rising to punch you in the heart in the whole run of the show.

Please kill all of the Garbage Gang asap, they add zero to the show and they are not believable as characters. Who would talk like that after only a couple of years, seriously.

1) Aye, fair play, I do love such moments - I had a similar reaction to Shiva in 7x16. Sometimes it's nice to just go 'fudge yeah' at your telly screen. :)

2) Agreed - it gives an added bit of cultural flavour and a different type of backstory to a character on the show. I loved the stuff with Eric turning - the sight of him walking off to join the walker herd was heartbreaking - and we do need more of those moments, just a little bit more, not to over do it, but just to inject a smidge of humanity into the walkers. Obviously they're not Romero style in that they don't recall their past lives in any way, they don't try and call up their Aunt Alicia, and don't operate weaponry (albeit haphazardly), but the times when they do flag up the tragedy of losing someone to the walkers on this show is always good. A smidge more would be welcome.

3) Yeah ... my short-hand for them is "Beyond Thunderdome". They feel too movie-like, plucked from some kind of fantasy, rather than the grounded vibe of TWD's pilot, which should remain as a guided light for the tone, I feel. The Heapsters' "say only what you need to say" thing is a bit silly. I can understand the development of a cult in the ZA, but this isn't that, so it doesn't really work.


I will never understand that.

Me not understanding his 'chore' outlook, or you likewise not understanding the 'chore' outlook? :p

[kidgloves]

It's a chore because there is much, much better written, produced and acted tv out there and I'm watching TWD out of habit and some sense of loyalty. It looks cheap. They are repeating themes over and over again.

[Moon Knight]

MZ, I agree with you haha.

[MinionZombie]

MZ, I agree with you haha.

MK & MZ, MZ & MK ... we need our own TWD reality/talk show. :lol:

[Moon Knight]

mk & mz, mz & mk ... We need our own twd reality/talk show. :lol:

Ratings!

[MinionZombie]

Ratings!

Money! and...

http://images.memes.com/meme/tile/685076

:D

[Moon Knight]

Money! and...

http://images.memes.com/meme/tile/685076

:D

Welp. Life would be complete.

[Wyldwraith]

Just gonna throw this out there,
EVERY, not most, not half, not a significant minority: EVERY group with the skills, manpower and equipment that's been encountered by Team Rick without the onus of a super-powerful antagonist faction acting as a common antagonist to them all, has had to be either beaten back or annihilated with lethal force...all the way back to Season 1.

I get how people like Jesus could still have a "Taking and holding prisoners is more moral than slaughtering a couple dozen defenseless enemies" mindset. It utterly boggles my mind how any of the originals could think forcing the Saviors into surrendering, and simply eliminating Neegan and maybe his lieutenants can end this.

Much like African child-soldiers, people can come to accept what we in the civilized world consider "barbarism"...IF those barbaric acts are at the behest of their Authority Figures. Even the Savior-workers are tainted to a significant extent.

I get that surrender has to still be on the table to fend off the question "Why hasn't the Coalition just cracked the Sanctuary and let the Walkers finish this?" That, and of course the Saviors had to be given time for the siege to go wrong. (Just a prediction at this point...but I consider it inevitable.) If the siege doesn't go away, somehow the ending of it will prolong the Savior/Coalition conflict.

My chief beef with TWD has always been that it seems like the same characters constantly have to learn and re-learn the same hard moral lessons. That isn't realistic, IMO.

ALL that said, I feel Season 8 HAS been stronger than Season 7.

[MinionZombie]

Just gonna throw this out there,
EVERY, not most, not half, not a significant minority: EVERY group with the skills, manpower and equipment that's been encountered by Team Rick without the onus of a super-powerful antagonist faction acting as a common antagonist to them all, has had to be either beaten back or annihilated with lethal force...all the way back to Season 1.

I get how people like Jesus could still have a "Taking and holding prisoners is more moral than slaughtering a couple dozen defenseless enemies" mindset. It utterly boggles my mind how any of the originals could think forcing the Saviors into surrendering, and simply eliminating Neegan and maybe his lieutenants can end this.

Much like African child-soldiers, people can come to accept what we in the civilized world consider "barbarism"...IF those barbaric acts are at the behest of their Authority Figures. Even the Savior-workers are tainted to a significant extent.

ALL that said, I feel Season 8 HAS been stronger than Season 7.

The groups they've faced in the past have either been out-right evil (Terminus), or small gaggles of freakshows (The Claimers) - or - there was the case of Woodbury, where the Governor was a secret tyrant with a close cadre of lieutenants who were doing his evil bidding. All the civilians of Woodbury were innocent - and Team Rick took them into the prison at the end of Season 3, proving the point that not everyone in these communities is actively involved in the potential 'evil machinations' of their runnings.

Much like with The Sanctuary, they have the ruling class (Negan and his lieutenants), a sort of military class (the ones beneath the lieutenants who do all the dirty work), and the civilian class (the workers who stay within the walls of the Sanctuary and toil away on growing food, organising supplies, building things etc). The workers are innocent as you can reasonably expect in this context, and many have suffered (those above the workers get better accomodation and rewards for their direct dealings with/for Negan - while the workers get a shitty factory floor to scruff about in, as we saw when Eugene toured the place for the first time in season 7).

So Rick is quite right to try and protect the workers who haven't done anything to anyone. It's Negan, his lieutenants, and the military class who the beef is with. Otherwise it'd be like saying that in any real-life war that the civilians are guilty of the actions taken by their government. You may vote them in, but governments can act on their own accord despite great protest.

All Out War is different as we're not just dealing with one rabble against another, this is now a ZA society that is being formed with allied communities in multiple locations working together - not mere day-to-day, hand-to-mouth survival - they're building something far bigger here, and so it's important to keep the workers (and pliable lieutenants) on-side for what comes after, as what comes after is the real prize here.

I do agree though, that Season 8 has been generally stronger - and certainly more consistent and better paced - than Season 7.