TWD 8x08 "How It's Gotta Be" episode discussion... **SPOILERS*

[MinionZombie]

Please keep all talk of episode 8x08 "How It's Gotta Be" specifically inside this thread.

If you have a theory for a following episode, please use the "spoiler tags" (visit the HPOTD FAQ to find out how to use them if you don't already know).

Similarly, if you're going to discuss plot points from the comic book, please use "spoiler tags" - not everyone is up-to-date on them, and some people don't read them at all.

Enjoy!

Directed by: Michael E. Satrazemis
Written by: David Leslie Johnson & Angela Kang


Every story and battle from the first half of the season comes crashing together in this action-packed, emotional Mid-Season finale.

https://dailydead.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/TWD-808-02.jpg

[Neil]

Extra long episode is it not?

[MinionZombie]

Extra long episode is it not?

Aye, a "90 minute" episode, as they say on Talking Dead etc ... of course, that's including adverts. So it's more like 65 minutes of actual telly. Still, though, looking forward to it. They're touting some 'big event' this episode (character death, a twist?), so we'll see, eh? Hopefully it lives up to the (albeit moderate) hype. *starts biting nails, seeks to evade spoilers* :D

[Moon Knight]

I really hope they end the war now but I doubt it.

[shootemindehead]

Aye, a "90 minute" episode, as they say on Talking Dead etc ... of course, that's including adverts. So it's more like 65 minutes of actual telly.

Jesus, I don't know how anybody can watch anything like that.

[MinionZombie]

I really hope they end the war now but I doubt it.

I'd be a smidge surprised if it ended already. There's not really been enough of the Saviours out there battling yet - so unless 8x08 is filled with that then I'd imagine the climax of AOW would go into the next half-season and then we'd get to see what comes after as the main crux of 8B.


Jesus, I don't know how anybody can watch anything like that.

The volume (and frequency) and ads in America boggles my mind. Three ad slots inside a half hour programme like Impractical Jokers, meanwhile here in the UK - one - although ours are longer, so at least you can make a drink or have a slash during them, and you get a good chunk of programming under your belt before the next one. It does mean, though, that the placement of ads on British TV in American shows is all out-of-step with the peaks & troughs of how US shows are written, which is annoying.

But yeah, I'd go barmy watching anything live over there. They should shake up how they do ads - fewer breaks that run a bit longer - and mercifully we have a law in the UK limiting the number of ads inside any given time slot. We've also got very strict rules about advertising during a programme, so product placement (e.g. food stuffs seen on shelves or on the breakfast table in soap operas or 'continuing dramas' as they're now called, where it can be prominent but also makes sense in the context) can be put in, but we don't have those dreadful banner ads consuming the bottom third of the screen during the actual bloody show you're watching!!! How those are even legal in the US is beyond me. They're so grotesque and distracting.

[Moon Knight]

Netflix and HBO has spoiled me. Commercials really ruin the format and story structure.

- - - Updated - - -

Would be really nice if it wraps up midway through 8B. I’m just really tired of this Saviors story and don’t want another day stretched across an entire half. Not that I’m not enjoying it but it’s been since 6B. Time for a change.

[facestabber]

Wish US had strict laws about ads. The volume kills the vibe and flow. I have a feeling tonight will be dark which I'm hopeful. Last thing I want are ads about pills which may cause explosive diarrhea breaking up pivotal moments.

[beat_truck]

Yeah, the commercial breaks are absolutely RIDICULOUS here in the US. I've been glancing at the clock during TWD, and many times there have been 5 minutes, and a few times it seems even less, of actual show and then 2 or 3 minutes of commercials.:rolleyes:

I was watching another show one day and was already annoyed by all the commercials. The current break ended, an the show came back on. About 15 seconds later, an icon advertising Pizza Hut or some shit came on over the show. I literally yelled out loud, "Really, you guys aren't making enough fucking money from commercials that you have to advertise DURING the show?" Grrrrr.:mad:

And don't even get me started on how they make some older TV shows COMPLETELY unwatchable by speeding them up so they can cram another commercial or two in the time slot. As one person on another forum said "The Waltons end up looking more like The Keystone Cops." Ugh.:mad:

[JDP]

Yeah, the commercial breaks are absolutely RIDICULOUS here in the US. I've been glancing at the clock during TWD, and many times there have been 5 minutes, and a few times it seems even less, of actual show and then 2 or 3 minutes of commercials.:rolleyes:

I was watching another show one day and was already annoyed by all the commercials. The current break ended, an the show came back on. About 15 seconds later, an icon advertising Pizza Hut or some shit came on over the show. I literally yelled out loud, "Really, you guys aren't making enough fucking money from commercials that you have to advertise DURING the show?" Grrrrr.:mad:

And don't even get me started on how they make some older TV shows COMPLETELY unwatchable by speeding them up so they can cram another commercial or two in the time slot. As one person on another forum said "The Waltons end up looking more like The Keystone Cops." Ugh.:mad:

Many channels also cut substantial portions of older shows and movies so that they can cram more commercials. They also often start the next show/movie while the credits of the one that is ending are still rolling on the screen! To these TV executives time is literally money. They will try to cram as much commercials as possible, even if it means having to sacrifice some of the content of the very shows/movies they are showing.

[beat_truck]

Many channels also cut substantial portions of older shows and movies so that they can cram more commercials. They also often start the next show/movie while the credits of the one that is ending are still rolling on the screen! To these TV executives time is literally money. They will try to cram as much commercials as possible, even if it means having to sacrifice some of the content of the very shows/movies they are showing.

I always knew movies were chopped for time (and content) obviously because it was stated before they aired them. I didn't realize that TV shows were sometimes cut down until years ago when I used to watch reruns of The Dukes of Hazzard. It aired on TNN for a while and when they stopped, CMT started running it. When episodes came on CMT that I had already seen, I kept thinking to myself, Hmmm I don't remember seeing that part before.:rolleyes:

[JDP]

I always knew movies were chopped for time (and content) obviously because it was stated before they aired them. I didn't realize that TV shows were sometimes cut down until years ago when I used to watch reruns of The Dukes of Hazzard. It aired on TNN for a while and when they stopped, CMT started running it. When episodes came on CMT that I had already seen, I kept thinking to myself, Hmmm I don't remember seeing that part before.:rolleyes:

Yes, they do that to a lot of the older TV shows. I watched many of these shows, like The Dukes of Hazzard and Three's Company, back when they were new and I can easily tell that some of the scenes have been cut in these more recent reruns. This is obviously done to cram more commercials.

[facestabber]

Guess Chandlers move to LA was for a reason. Haha. Kudos to him because he did a great job tonight. That episode was tense. Seeing Rick and Michonnes reaction was a horrible gut punch. So much for the comics huh.

[bassman]

The core of TWD, both comics and series, has always been about Rick and Carl. Fangirl delight Daryl is still alive but they're taking out Carl? Stupid.

I'd already been losing interest in the series, this surely isn't going to help that...

[MinionZombie]

Guess Chandlers move to LA was for a reason. Haha. Kudos to him because he did a great job tonight. That episode was tense. Seeing Rick and Michonnes reaction was a horrible gut punch. So much for the comics huh.

Well, they promised a big event - and they delivered - a bit of a twist that one! Judith died in the comics, Carl lived on - now on the show it's been flipped. There were rumours going around that he'd been killed off the show because he'd finally got a hair cut, but there had been many such rumours for a few seasons now, so it wasn't a sure thing (they could have written in a hair cut to the show) ... but, well, this time the rumour was right. Farewell Carl ... I'm not entirely sure how I feel about this one as it's a major departure from the comics (and another Season 1 O.G. cast member being bumped off the show), mainly because the comics have, for me, at their heart been a story about a father shepherding his child (Carl) through the zombie apocalypse during the boy's formative years ... I guess with Riggs growing up so much we've already seen a lot of that stuff happen (Carl handling the evacuation plan of Alexandria while the likes of Michonne stood paralysed in fear was mightily impressive) ... but I suppose it'll make a lot of sense for reasons. :shifty:

Considering the scene earlier in the episode where Carl and Rick talk about the guy in the woods - where Carl fights for something more, something better than just slaughtering everyone, thinking beyond All Out War - I think it'll play a major role in Rick's approach and add some necessary gravitas and reasoning to his decisions over the next chunk of episodes (perhaps beyond that, even).

I guess now we know what the context of those 'Rick looking rather strung out' shots in 8x01 were about - I imagine that is, in the order of the narrative, the morning after discovering Carl has been bitten or after Carl has died. We're still yet to see him die, of course.

...

Some good stuff in this episode - they addressed the bugger up of the dump truck incident, although I think they would have still been in a better place without that. The Saviours alluded to Eugene helping them out (a new truck with music blaring from it, as we heard in the Simon/Maggie scene), but would they have come up with that plan (or been able to execute it) if the walker herd had still been surrounding the Sanctuary? Hmmm...

Good to see the Saviours unleashed a bit - great stuff with Negan and Carl (the heart-to-heart stuff was genuinely beginning to cut through to Negan - who, as we learned, had a history of working with kids pre-ZA), and the Rick/Negan scene was generally good (I know that the "JUST KILL NEGAN!" rabble will continue to whine and piss and moan - well, tough :elol: ). Neither of these men is going to go out like a flacid loser, so strap in.

The bombing of Alexandria was quite something - it'll be interesting to see how they handle that from a production standpoint in the next half (seeing as that area is actually residential with real families living in some of those buildings during production). Visual effects and choice angles/framing will help.

Suffice it to say, we've certainly got a hook to pull us into 8B. The loss of Carl is going to have a major impact on Rick and Michonne (of course), but it's going to have a major impact on the other regulars who have known him for so long (Maggie, Daryl, etc). It's a major character killed off - proving that they still can and will make those choices - but it's good to use such moments wisely and rarely for maximum impact. Now we just need to build up some other supporting players so their deaths (should they occur) come with more impact.

One gripe - Edith shooting the grandma lady from Oceanside - felt a bit iffy the way she shot so readily, especially as they were there specifically to wait for the Oceanside crew. I imagine it must be something to do with the actress who played that part. Was she not available any more? Was it a different person filling in? Was the face different in that one shot we saw of her lying dead on the ground? I'm assuming she's dead, of course, and not just badly injured ... so maybe I'm way off and didn't read it quite right - thoughts?


And don't even get me started on how they make some older TV shows COMPLETELY unwatchable by speeding them up so they can cram another commercial or two in the time slot. As one person on another forum said "The Waltons end up looking more like The Keystone Cops." Ugh.:mad:

Eh?! Speeding them up?! I'm stunned that they're even allowed to do that. Here in the UK we sometimes get the credits sped up (or trimmed considerable) for feature films (so you get the big credits, the cast list, and then the logos and MPAA number etc at the very end) - you know, truncated like - or the entire credits reel airs but at a sped-up rate (sometimes quite noticeable, occasionally ramping up as footage is still playing in the fade out moments) ... but never during the actual body of the show or film! :stunned:


I always knew movies were chopped for time (and content) obviously because it was stated before they aired them. I didn't realize that TV shows were sometimes cut down until years ago when I used to watch reruns of The Dukes of Hazzard. It aired on TNN for a while and when they stopped, CMT started running it. When episodes came on CMT that I had already seen, I kept thinking to myself, Hmmm I don't remember seeing that part before.:rolleyes:

I recall there being some films that were show in the late 1990s here in the UK, on ITV if I remember correctly, that were show inside two hour time slots (9pm to 11pm) - and ITV has adverts (unlike the BBC) - and many of the films they were showing ran longer than the available time for programming within that slot (the rest taken up with the legal maximum of advertisements), or indeed, the films were sometimes one which ran over two hours in themselves. So what they did was literally cut entire chunks out of films. I particularly remember Last Action Hero having numerous scenes slashed out of it and I didn't quite realise it at the time but was aware something was wrong - the scene where Robert Patrick makes a T-1000 cameo? Gone. The bit were Arnie looks at a T-2 cardboard display but Stallone is in his place? Gone. Various other scenes were excised or trimmed. That happened for all the films they showed in that 'season' of films in that time slot - but I never saw that happen again.

The main issue with missing stuff on TV over here comes to censorship of swearing or violence or sexual violence. It's much rarer now than it was back in the day (e.g. T2 had all the F-words and various snippets of violence trimmed out of it when it aired in the 1990s - the biker on the hot stove, for instance, or the knife slamming into another biker's shoulder as another example, rendering "pull it out" utterly baffling to the audience), but it depends on the watershed and when things air usually. Now they're better about finding the right slot and even right channel to air various films ... my one remaining peeve, though, is cropping the aspect ratio of 2.35:1 films down to 16x9 so it fills the average person's telly. It ruins the look of the film and winds me up something awful! :rolleyes:

Anyway - U.S. commercials - the volume and frequency, by the sounds of it, would drive me absolutely apoplectic with frustration! :stunned:

- - - Updated - - -


The core of TWD, both comics and series, has always been about Rick and Carl. Fangirl delight Daryl is still alive but they're taking out Carl? Stupid.

I'd already been losing interest in the series, this surely isn't going to help that...

While I agree with you on the Rick/Carl dynamic being at the core of the comics, and being pleased that Daryl lives to fight another day, I think Carl's death will be put to use in future episodes as a key event which will help define the steps taken by the communities in the wake of All Out War. Such a major departure won't have been taken lightly and I have a feeling it's got some real purpose behind it. Much of Carl's growth into a good young man has been completed in the show, making him basically on-par or entirely level with his comic book counterpart (whose transformation took longer - the kid was even younger at the start, too).

[JDP]

Very strange that Simon allowed Maggie to go back to The Hilltop instead of capturing her and taking her to Negan. Alongside Rick and Ezekiel, she is wanted for the purpose of an "exemplary" public execution.

[MinionZombie]

I went back to 8x01 and there's a moment right at the end where Rick - in those moments we saw him in a bit of a shellshocked state - where he says "my mercy prevails over my wrath". I strongly think this is going to tie-in with the loss of Carl and will be crucially important for the future of Alexandria, The Hilltop, The Kingdom, Oceanside, and perhaps even The Sanctuary.

Oh, and the Heapsters are still assholes, scarpering as they did at the first sign of trouble. Mind you, to be fair to them, the scene they were presented with wasn't anything like the pictures Rick showed them. So in their point of view Rick's not exactly reliable/trustworthy (and means not a whole bunch to them in the grand scheme of things anyway).


Very strange that Simon allowed Maggie to go back to The Hilltop instead of capturing her and taking her to Negan. Alongside Rick and Ezekiel, she is wanted for the purpose of an "exemplary" public execution.

They'd basically hammered out an impromptu deal, though, at least for the time being - a placeholder, if you will. A bunch of them were off securing the Kingdom, and the main contingent was busy at Alexandria. Are they aware that Maggie is pregnant? I think so, so it wouldn't do their 'cause' much good to execute a pregnant woman. I wonder if their plans for Maggie is more about bringing her to heel, rather than outright violence.

Clearly they weren't aware of the Hilltop having dozens of Saviours as POWs.

...


https://deadshed.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/moment-edition-walking-dead-8x08-meme.html
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-7OWfsscBci0/Wi67nS7JyLI/AAAAAAAAFgw/NKOfHJEg3NshCE_OChlrELV79QQGDggNgCLcBGAs/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_8_Meme_Carl_Negan_Thought_ Having_Moment_Scorched_Earth_8x08_DeadShed_sm.jpg


:)

[Moon Knight]

Very strange that Simon allowed Maggie to go back to The Hilltop instead of capturing her and taking her to Negan. Alongside Rick and Ezekiel, she is wanted for the purpose of an "exemplary" public execution.

I noticed that too.

Man, I didn’t want Carl to go but I’m very curious on how things go from here on out. Carl just isn’t the same character he is in the comics because he outgrew the role so fast. Chandler improved a lot so I’m not blaming the actor. Kids grow fast, you can’t help that.

Now it’s Rick and Judith and what intrigues me is that Judith has no idea what the world was like before the Dead walked the earth.

Sucks they decided to take Chandler off he show though. Kinda messed up.

[JDP]

Oh, and the Heapsters are still assholes, scarpering as they did at the first sign of trouble. Mind you, to be fair to them, the scene they were presented with wasn't anything like the pictures Rick showed them. So in their point of view Rick's not exactly reliable/trustworthy (and means not a whole bunch to them in the grand scheme of things anyway).

That was to be expected. They have no loyalty whatsoever to anyone but their own. They were just about to betray their agreement with the Saviors too. There's no way anyone can possibly trust this treacherous bunch.


They'd basically hammered out an impromptu deal, though, at least for the time being - a placeholder, if you will. A bunch of them were off securing the Kingdom, and the main contingent was busy at Alexandria. Are they aware that Maggie is pregnant? I think so, so it wouldn't do their 'cause' much good to execute a pregnant woman. I wonder if their plans for Maggie is more about bringing her to heel, rather than outright violence.

If you remember from the episode where Ezekiel almost got captured by that "Revenge of the Nerds" Savior, he clearly said that Rick, Ezekiel and "The Widow" (i.e. Maggie) are wanted, preferably alive, by Negan in order to make a public example out of them. We should expect Simon to have not allowed Maggie to go back to The Hilltop and captured her right then & there and taken her back to the Sanctuary. She is one of Negan's "Most Wanted".


Clearly they weren't aware of the Hilltop having dozens of Saviours as POWs.

I think that during the confrontation with Simon none of the Hilltoppers revealed to the Saviors that there's many Savior prisoners back at the Hilltop. The most likely action that revelation would have prompted is the immediate capture of all present Hilltoppers. The Saviors would then have a bargaining chip when they go pay a visit to the Hilltop: your prisoners in exchange for ours. By keeping the existence of the Savior prisoners a secret for the moment, Maggie must have insured that none of the Hilltoppers would be taken captive in retaliation. But still, Simon should not have allowed Maggie to go back so casually just like that. She should have been captured right then and there and sent back to the Sanctuary. All the Saviors know that she demoted Gregory and took over leadership of the Hilltop and joined them in the anti-Savior alliance, thus why she is on Negan's "Most Wanted" list.

[Moon Knight]

Simon should have definitely caltured Maggie.

[MinionZombie]

I noticed that too.

Man, I didn’t want Carl to go but I’m very curious on how things go from here on out. Carl just isn’t the same character he is in the comics because he outgrew the role so fast. Chandler improved a lot so I’m not blaming the actor. Kids grow fast, you can’t help that.

Now it’s Rick and Judith and what intrigues me is that Judith has no idea what the world was like before the Dead walked the earth.

Sucks they decided to take Chandler off he show though. Kinda messed up.

In regards to Judith - it does keep alive the overarching theme of 'a father raising his kid in the apocalypse', and as you say, a kid who will never know the pre-ZA world. Arguably they'd covered all the 'Carl growing up' stuff to present day times in the comics (aside from popping his cherry, poor Carl can't get no luck in the ZA :lol: ), turning him into a man essentially, and I think this episode distilled that quite well: ideologically confronting his father (and, I'd guess, changing his father's mind), thinking ahead to the future as a new generation coming up (a change of hands beginning to happen, almost), and of course Carl's handling of the evacuation plan while all those around him lost their heads.

I don't know if there were other factors (e.g. Riggs wanting to go to college and live a 'normal' life for a while, or whatever) that played into it, but the more I think about it, the more it makes sense as a turning point for the society they're trying to build.

That said, the utter hopelessness on Michonne - and, most of all, Rick's - faces was just heartbreaking. It doesn't bear thinking about - a father being confronted with the imminent death of his child. Wonderful acting all around - Guirira, Lincoln, and Riggs: they all nailed it. Good to see the show can still pluck on your heart strings and toss in a shock twist or two, even into its eighth season.

I'm fascinated to see where things develop from here in 8B! :hyper:

[beat_truck]

Eh?! Speeding them up?! I'm stunned that they're even allowed to do that. Here in the UK we sometimes get the credits sped up (or trimmed considerable) for feature films (so you get the big credits, the cast list, and then the logos and MPAA number etc at the very end) - you know, truncated like - or the entire credits reel airs but at a sped-up rate (sometimes quite noticeable, occasionally ramping up as footage is still playing in the fade out moments) ... but never during the actual body of the show or film! :stunned:


Unfortunately it's true. It seems like networks here can do pretty much whatever they damn well please, as long as they don't show a bare breast or let the F word slip.:rolleyes:

This was one of the better episodes of the series IMO, almost making up for some of the earlier episodes this season, which were honestly pretty rough at times. I hate to see Carl go, but I had a suspicion that it was going to happen. They were spending more time focusing on him and historically whenever there is a lot of character development and talk about morals and the future, it's usually the kiss of death for that character. It was still a ballsy move of the writers, though. I wonder where they are going with this in 8B because they said on Talking Dead that they are not quite done with Carl's character yet.

[facestabber]

I enjoyed this episode. Chandler specifically sought out two people I follow and respectfully asked them not to spoil this episode. For the first time ever they with held the info and chandler has came back and thanked them today. Even though I knew Carl's demise was very probable, it wasn't confirmed so this episode was much more tense. I cussed at each commercial as they become more annoying when I don't know exactly what's coming. As mentioned Danai, Andrew and Chandler acted the hell outta this episode. Major kudos.

As much as I liked when Gimple took over for Mazarra, I think his time is up. Season 3 was a mess and Gimple righted the ship for seasons 4 and 5. But his decision to off Carl is a mistake. Especially since Gimple as said it was done so Rick could find mercy for Negan!!!! Gtfo. Carl has never been my favorite actor or character but I respected what he meant to this show. I'm sure 08-09 will be heart wrenching but I'm nervous with Gimple at the helm. He is AMC puppet and IMO AMC are a bunch of ungrateful pricks with how they have handled this show starting with cutting the budget from season 1 and 2. Rant over.

[MinionZombie]

Going forward I would like to see the stories done in such a way that it spreads things out a bit more - the timeline of events. Now, of course All Out War has to take place in a condensed period of time, because stretching it out over days or weeks simply wouldn't make any sense at all, but I would like to see more stories in the future that aren't told within a short period of in-show time.

Season 7 took place over a few weeks ultimately, with large chunks of it taking place in short periods with some gaps between. Season 6 had a huge chunk that took place over 24-48 hours. It'd be nice to get some breathing room inbetween episodes. Fortunately they listened to the fans regarding Season 7's dodgy pacing/structure and have rectified a lot of that here in 8A. They occasionally still try to get a bit too clever with the structure at times (I liked the flash forwards in 8x01 a lot, but would have liked to see a little more of that in further episodes so it didn't feel so disjointed from the rest of the half-season, if that makes sense?) ... some of these structural decisions will work much better in a binge-viewing context rather than a week-by-week context, but being that the latter is how the show initially airs, you've gotta make sure it works first and foremost for that method of transmission.

There's a few sloppy bits here and there that need to be tightened up (e.g. Negan needed more cover in 8x01, as we've discussed ad nauseum in that particular thread, and it'd be nice if some characters didn't act so selfishly at this point in their development and time spent with Team Rick), but overall it was good.

Anyway ... onto other things. So it seems that Grandma Oceanside is indeed dead, kaput, no more as confirmed by Talking Dead. Does anyone have any info about that - did the actress need to leave, did she die, what happened?

And what of Alexandria? They said it had "fallen" on Talking Dead - but permanently? The flash forward showed a house that looked like one from Alexandria, but outside there was a stone building (a new build?). I wonder if the production has had to move away from the location where they currently film (has the popularity of the show pushed up house prices and so people are wanting the show to move on from there now? Who knows?) ... but might they, with half of Alexandria blown up, seek to rebuild various Alexandria-like houses in a new location with various new buildings (according to the flash forward) so it's the 'new' Alexandria?

At the moment, though, it seems the fight is going to move to The Hilltop.

Oh - and if you rewind to episode 8x06, you can see the moment where Carl realises he's been bitten. Siddiq is talking to him and Carl is very still and quiet - the realisation is sinking in - then he snaps back into the need of the moment and cracks on. The transformation from boy to man is complete.

Thinking about it, too, some people complain "ooh, all these walker attacks and nobody gets bitten, even when they're on top of you" - well there you go. Shit does happen from time-to-time.

UPDATE: Seems there was some behind the scenes issues:
http://www.savedslayer.com/2017/12/chandler-riggs-and-his-father-comment.html

Still don't know the whole story, to be fair, but apparently there was talk of wanting Riggs for three more seasons, but then he gets dropped from the show just before his 18th birthday. :(


https://deadshed.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/moment-edition-walking-dead-8x08-meme.html
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-KyMuWJTG4zc/Wi-vsp-gW1I/AAAAAAAAFhA/LQ8W7KDiUZIIxYP67mdXbcUN5VuzWlcNgCLcBGAs/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_8_Meme_Rick_Carl_Popular_F art_Elevator_8x08_DeadShed_sm.jpg


:)

- - - Updated - - -

Interview with Riggs for THR:
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/walking-dead-is-carl-going-die-chandler-riggs-exit-interview-1066031?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=THR%20Breaking%20News_now_2017-12-10%2019:29:24_lgoldberg&utm_term=hollywoodreporter_breakingnews

Interview with Gimple for THR:
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/walking-dead-carls-death-explained-by-scott-gimple-andrew-lincoln-season-9-status-1066075

Hmmm ... feeling a bit nervous about the future of the story! I'd forgotten that the flash forward features Carl. So that's probably akin to the 'happy lunchtime' vision we saw last season (with Glenn and Abraham and everyone else enjoying a lovely meal outside on a long table).

I suppose we should remember that there are significant death changes from the comics that we've seen before - losing Andrea in 3x16 and keeping Carol. Mazzara ended up squandering Andrea, but at least we've handled her loss with Michonne, and Carol was kinda naff in the comics, but she's awesome on the show.

Reading these interviews you hear talk of an "end game" being discussed, as would be wise generally. Are they eyeing Season 10 as the end of the show? The comics have been kinda choppy since a little after AOW (i.e. The Whisperers), and I do feel that even the comics need to be wrapped up sooner rather than later as it just feels ready for it ... hmmm.

...

I'm really in two minds about killing off Carl. :confused: I see Gimple's getting a shedload of flack on Twitter regarding it.

[JDP]

Going forward I would like to see the stories done in such a way that it spreads things out a bit more - the timeline of events. Now, of course All Out War has to take place in a condensed period of time, because stretching it out over days or weeks simply wouldn't make any sense at all, but I would like to see more stories in the future that aren't told within a short period of in-show time.

Season 7 took place over a few weeks ultimately, with large chunks of it taking place in short periods with some gaps between. Season 6 had a huge chunk that took place over 24-48 hours. It'd be nice to get some breathing room inbetween episodes. Fortunately they listened to the fans regarding Season 7's dodgy pacing/structure and have rectified a lot of that here in 8A. They occasionally still try to get a bit too clever with the structure at times (I liked the flash forwards in 8x01 a lot, but would have liked to see a little more of that in further episodes so it didn't feel so disjointed from the rest of the half-season, if that makes sense?) ... some of these structural decisions will work much better in a binge-viewing context rather than a week-by-week context, but being that the latter is how the show initially airs, you've gotta make sure it works first and foremost for that method of transmission.

There's a few sloppy bits here and there that need to be tightened up (e.g. Negan needed more cover in 8x01, as we've discussed ad nauseum in that particular thread, and it'd be nice if some characters didn't act so selfishly at this point in their development and time spent with Team Rick), but overall it was good.

Anyway ... onto other things. So it seems that Grandma Oceanside is indeed dead, kaput, no more as confirmed by Talking Dead. Does anyone have any info about that - did the actress need to leave, did she die, what happened?

And what of Alexandria? They said it had "fallen" on Talking Dead - but permanently? The flash forward showed a house that looked like one from Alexandria, but outside there was a stone building (a new build?). I wonder if the production has had to move away from the location where they currently film (has the popularity of the show pushed up house prices and so people are wanting the show to move on from there now? Who knows?) ... but might they, with half of Alexandria blown up, seek to rebuild various Alexandria-like houses in a new location with various new buildings (according to the flash forward) so it's the 'new' Alexandria?

At the moment, though, it seems the fight is going to move to The Hilltop.

Oh - and if you rewind to episode 8x06, you can see the moment where Carl realises he's been bitten. Siddiq is talking to him and Carl is very still and quiet - the realisation is sinking in - then he snaps back into the need of the moment and cracks on. The transformation from boy to man is complete.

Thinking about it, too, some people complain "ooh, all these walker attacks and nobody gets bitten, even when they're on top of you" - well there you go. Shit does happen from time-to-time.

UPDATE: Seems there was some behind the scenes issues:
http://www.savedslayer.com/2017/12/chandler-riggs-and-his-father-comment.html

Still don't know the whole story, to be fair, but apparently there was talk of wanting Riggs for three more seasons, but then he gets dropped from the show just before his 18th birthday. :(


https://deadshed.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/moment-edition-walking-dead-8x08-meme.html
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-KyMuWJTG4zc/Wi-vsp-gW1I/AAAAAAAAFhA/LQ8W7KDiUZIIxYP67mdXbcUN5VuzWlcNgCLcBGAs/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_8_Meme_Rick_Carl_Popular_F art_Elevator_8x08_DeadShed_sm.jpg


:)

- - - Updated - - -

Interview with Riggs for THR:
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/walking-dead-is-carl-going-die-chandler-riggs-exit-interview-1066031?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=THR%20Breaking%20News_now_2017-12-10%2019:29:24_lgoldberg&utm_term=hollywoodreporter_breakingnews

Interview with Gimple for THR:
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/walking-dead-carls-death-explained-by-scott-gimple-andrew-lincoln-season-9-status-1066075

Hmmm ... feeling a bit nervous about the future of the story! I'd forgotten that the flash forward features Carl. So that's probably akin to the 'happy lunchtime' vision we saw last season (with Glenn and Abraham and everyone else enjoying a lovely meal outside on a long table).

I suppose we should remember that there are significant death changes from the comics that we've seen before - losing Andrea in 3x16 and keeping Carol. Mazzara ended up squandering Andrea, but at least we've handled her loss with Michonne, and Carol was kinda naff in the comics, but she's awesome on the show.

Reading these interviews you hear talk of an "end game" being discussed, as would be wise generally. Are they eyeing Season 10 as the end of the show? The comics have been kinda choppy since a little after AOW (i.e. The Whisperers), and I do feel that even the comics need to be wrapped up sooner rather than later as it just feels ready for it ... hmmm.

...

I'm really in two minds about killing off Carl. :confused: I see Gimple's getting a shedload of flack on Twitter regarding it.

I think those are probably just visions/illusions in Rick's mind. The whole thing has its root in what Negan told Rick when he took him to that bridge area with the bunch of zombies, to give him the dangerous task of retrieving the hatchet from the roof of the RV. While Rick was struggling to survive out there and get the hatchet, Negan taunted him with something along the lines of "you thought everything was going to be fine with everyone sitting at the dinner table like one big happy family, but it's not like that, Rick." Those words and the shocking events associated with them must have had a deep psychological impact on Rick.

Regarding when Carl got bit: you can see it now in retrospective, but at the time the episode first aired it was difficult to conclude whether Carl had really gotten bit or not. Now we can plainly deduce that it was the first zombie that was on top of him trying to bite him, which he pushed to the side, then another zombie fell on top of him. While Carl is in the process of taking his gun out to shoot this second zombie, the first one comes back and his head goes off screen right around the area where we later see that Carl got bit.

Let's hope that Rick does not get so pissed off that he wants to place the blame for this on Siddiq. It was not his fault. He was minding his own business. Carl did everything out of his own will, Siddiq did not force him to fight the zombies, in fact quite the contrary, he told him that he probably should not be doing any of what he's doing for him.

[Moon Knight]

Alexandria is pretty much done currently. Looks like the remaining battle will settle in the Hilltop. The Saviors have The Kingdom and Alexandria is in flames.

Oceanside leader Natania is toast. That was really weird how they went about her demise. To me it was a time issue. So much story to fit into one episode and their desire to devote an entire episode to Eugene didn’t help. Anyway, she was the only factor holding Oceanside back from the fight so that’s that.

Carl being bitten randomly was fine, we need the Walkers to be more of a threat. All that fighting and surviving just to get bit by a Walker. Sad. I felt the same way when Glenn was first killed by Negan in the comic. It can happen to anyone. It’s also a way so the character can get a final goodbye with his family.

Also, Chandler’s Dad should keep his feelings off social media. Bad move.

[MinionZombie]

You make some good points, Moon. I'm all over the shop on the Carl issue. There's 'theories' going around online (fuelled by Lincoln and Reedus' contracts having not been sorted out yet - but, to be fair, that's not unusual in the biz and simple business problems can suddenly take on far more significance from the fiction being depicted on screen) that could this big departure from the comics mean that Rick will get killed off ... I really hope they don't go that way, that'd be way too far and not make enough sense. We entered this world with Rick, and we need to leave this world with Rick - i.e. when the show ends it needs to end with Rick (either looking out over a new world as it begins, or dying at the very end of the whole TV show).

The behind the scenes situation is undoubtedly a bit confused to us outsiders and there's no real way to understand it all fairly or completely. I wish these sorts of things didn't happen as it really leaves a sour/confused taste in the mouth (e.g. the way Darabont was shafted way back when). It must be hard for the "TWD Family" - all the creative minds on either side of the camera (i.e. not the corporate folk) - having to deal with these sorts of punches.

Some people have talked about the Carl stuff associated with The Whisperers storyline from the comics, but to be honest, that quality of that storyline has been all over the place - to me at least. It wasn't as interesting in the wake of All Out War and felt a bit too weird (like Heapster weird). With the comics continuing for the foreseeable future and the show dozens and dozens of issues behind, I think it might be wise to re-write the Whisperer stuff entirely for a custom-built 'end game' designed specifically for the TV show, which could still cherry pick the best parts of the comics post-AOW.

JDP - yeah, the lunchtime dream was clearly a dream ... I was just saying that now we know that Carl is about to die that the apparent 'flash forward' was instead a similar style of 'dream' ... although we still really need to see 'Old Man Rick' for the final seasons with Judith more grown up. We could have Judith as the new face of the future for the TWD universe, especially as someone who never knew the 'old world'. It'd be nice to see Judith grow into a young adult (which, in the ZA world with all its harsh realities, is akin to being a full blown adult in the pre-ZA world) who has a vision for the future, through a series of time jumps and a generally faster progression of time across the constituent episodes of each remaining season.

[facestabber]

You make some good points, Moon. I'm all over the shop on the Carl issue. There's 'theories' going around online (fuelled by Lincoln and Reedus' contracts having not been sorted out yet - but, to be fair, that's not unusual in the biz and simple business problems can suddenly take on far more significance from the fiction being depicted on screen) that could this big departure from the comics mean that Rick will get killed off ... I really hope they don't go that way, that'd be way too far and not make enough sense. We entered this world with Rick, and we need to leave this world with Rick - i.e. when the show ends it needs to end with Rick (either looking out over a new world as it begins, or dying at the very end of the whole TV show).

The behind the scenes situation is undoubtedly a bit confused to us outsiders and there's no real way to understand it all fairly or completely. I wish these sorts of things didn't happen as it really leaves a sour/confused taste in the mouth (e.g. the way Darabont was shafted way back when). It must be hard for the "TWD Family" - all the creative minds on either side of the camera (i.e. not the corporate folk) - having to deal with these sorts of punches.

Some people have talked about the Carl stuff associated with The Whisperers storyline from the comics, but to be honest, that quality of that storyline has been all over the place - to me at least. It wasn't as interesting in the wake of All Out War and felt a bit too weird (like Heapster weird). With the comics continuing for the foreseeable future and the show dozens and dozens of issues behind, I think it might be wise to re-write the Whisperer stuff entirely for a custom-built 'end game' designed specifically for the TV show, which could still cherry pick the best parts of the comics post-AOW.

JDP - yeah, the lunchtime dream was clearly a dream ... I was just saying that now we know that Carl is about to die that the apparent 'flash forward' was instead a similar style of 'dream' ... although we still really need to see 'Old Man Rick' for the final seasons with Judith more grown up. We could have Judith as the new face of the future for the TWD universe, especially as someone who never knew the 'old world'. It'd be nice to see Judith grow into a young adult (which, in the ZA world with all its harsh realities, is akin to being a full blown adult in the pre-ZA world) who has a vision for the future, through a series of time jumps and a generally faster progression of time across the constituent episodes of each remaining season.

I recently read that viewership was down 25% for this mid season episode compared to last year. The GA are starting to walk away. I have friends that are no longer invested. I love the show and always have. But it doesnt have that magic vibe it once held for me. The behind the scene turmoil does not bode well. I think AMC is a giant pain in the ass. I read Gale Ann Hurd is involved in this current lawsuit with AMC. Thats bad news. I am fearful that AMC will just allow the show to disintegrate and milk as much cash as possible during the process. To me it feels like AMC has always been about the bottom dollar. Carl dying is a wake up call to the cast that Gimple is more interested in shock value and the "no one is safe" mantra. Some characters have to die and I understand that. But killing too many main characters, and more importantly fan favorites, and the show will collapse. I would rather see the show go out on its on terms even a year or two too early than just fall apart. AS Minion eluded to, we started this journey with Rick Grimes and I need it to end with Rick. Preferably not dying but rather he and Carl surviving the ZA and making it to a new and rebuilt world of the living. Carl's gone so I hope Judith can make it. And if they are feeling kind I would love to see Maggie and baby, Michonne and Daryl.

Hey Moon Im sure you're happy with Rosita's brain clicking back on to level headed.

[MinionZombie]

AS Minion eluded to, we started this journey with Rick Grimes and I need it to end with Rick. Preferably not dying but rather he and Carl surviving the ZA and making it to a new and rebuilt world of the living. Carl's gone so I hope Judith can make it. And if they are feeling kind I would love to see Maggie and baby, Michonne and Daryl.

Don't forget Carol, too. We're now down to the "Atlanta three" (Rick, Daryl, Carol). I'd like to see all three of them make it, personally, or maybe lose one of them at the very end of the whole shebang.

It's interesting looking at the reactions on social media, and even just reading those THR articles, it's very easy to feel down on the show just by surrounding yourself with negative stories or general complaining. In some ways it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, where if you have some viewers who are so focused on the problems then it's all they can see.

It is fair to say the show doesn't have quite the same power as it once did when it was at its peak, but there's still the opportunity to go out strong and correct mistakes that have been made (well, within reason - Carl will definitely die as that's how the bites work). All shows eventually lose their big, shining glow (after their initial rise to greatness). They've definitely lost some viewers outright (but might those have been more casual fans?), while some have chosen to move their viewership over to 'time shift' viewing (e.g. last week's episode got a 3.3m bump in the +3 ratings).

I think it'd be wise to move into the 'final phase' period of the show now, like how Game of Thrones opted to not drag things out unnecessarily (even cutting three episodes from each of the final two seasons). Two more seasons of TWD at a reduced schedule of 12 (i.e. 6 and 6) would work well, I think. You have enough time to sort everything out, but you also don't drag it into embarrassment. In the meantime there's still plenty to look forward to, despite some wobbles we've had recently. We need to acknowledge the bad, of course, but we also need to focus on the good as well. :)

[Moon Knight]

Facestabber, I’m very happy with Rosita now. I loved that she had Carl’s back.

The show is over 8 years old now. It’s bound to happen. I knew once it peaked during season 5 it was only a matter of time. The GA isn’t like the passionate fan base. They lose interest quick when a shiny new toy is tossed their way. Netflix really did change how shows are consumed now.

People complain about the show having more commercials now than ever. (It doesn’t.) They complain when things drag or when an episode ends with a cliffhanger, if it’s too slow, too much action, ect. I wonder if TWD was released as a whole instead of weekly will people think different of it? Maybe.

It’s all good though I’m still enjoying it but because the show is still huge all the negative stuff makes the headlines; almost as if it’s the only show that has imperfections behind and in front of the cameras.

The Whisperers has a chance to change the pace and feel of the show in a good way but I will say this, the writers have to drop the moral compass storylines already. Please.

[MinionZombie]

People complain about the show having more commercials now than ever. (It doesn’t.) They complain when things drag or when an episode ends with a cliffhanger, if it’s too slow, too much action, ect. I wonder if TWD was released as a whole instead of weekly will people think different of it? Maybe.

It’s all good though I’m still enjoying it but because the show is still huge all the negative stuff makes the headlines; almost as if it’s the only show that has imperfections behind and in front of the cameras.

The Whisperers has a chance to change the pace and feel of the show in a good way but I will say this, the writers have to drop the moral compass storylines already. Please.

Yeah, sometimes the complaints make absolutely zero sense, or are thrown up onto Twitter with such pissyness or exaggeration that they have no credence to them. There are certainly legitimate criticisms to be made, but some of the things you read on social media are eye-rollingly dunderheaded or, as you say, damn TWD for failings that occur (sometimes to far greater degrees) on a whole host of other shows.

There's a meme out there that breaks down the structure of an episode, with large portions marked 'nothing happens' or 'boring' or whatever, which is another exaggeration. It's bizarre what some people will say about any given episode, especially when they write it off as 'nothing happened' when the episode was utterly chock-full of stuff happening. The complainers whined that there wasn't enough action in Season 7, now in Season 8 there's too much.

Certainly there's still a pacing issue in-so-far as the overall plot needs to be moving faster than it currently is simply because the week-to-week viewing format makes everything feel slower. Hours for the characters translates into weeks for us viewers, so that balance needs to be struck better. However, when watched in a binge session in your own time frame these episodes often play out better because you don't have to wait. Netflix and binge-watching in general have spoiled us viewers somewhat, but each method has their own respective strengths and weaknesses.

Anyway, I've written as many of my thoughts about where TWD currently is at, trying to cover as many aspects from different angles as reasonable as possible over here:
https://deadshed.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/the-walking-dead-room-for-improvement.html
:)

[Neil]

Sorry, I'm just finding this show more and more contrived. ie: People doing odd things which just come across as poor writing/directing for me :(

The number of times people don't shoot other people when given the chance for example!? eg: The chance for a sniper taking out Negan over and over!


I can feel my enjoyment of the show significantly reducing TBH! Indeed, if the next half of the season is like the first, I can imagine myself losing the will. Yes, the writing/directing is grating on me that much now!

[Moon Knight]

Sorry, I'm just finding this show more and more contrived. ie: People doing odd things which just come across as poor writing/directing for me :(

The number of times people don't shoot other people when given the chance for example!? eg: The chance for a sniper taking out Negan over and over!


I can feel my enjoyment of the show significantly reducing TBH! Indeed, if the next half of the season is like the first, I can imagine myself losing the will. Yes, the writing/directing is grating on me that much now!

Yeah, that’s a fair criticism. They writers really paint themselves into that corner.

I just want the show to make some tweaks and improve on that structure. They have at least five areas that need addressing but as a fan I want to support it and stick around for the ride. Only way I see myself dropping TWD is if they kill Rick. It’s his story.

[shootemindehead]

Yeh. Not sure what to make of that midway ending. Carl getting bit raised an eyebrow, but I don't really care?

Other stuff going down was ok, but I dunno. I've no real reaction at the moment?

Over all, it was a decent 8 episodes I spose, despite the dodgy start. But, yep, there needs to be some more gritty realism injected into the show as a whole. The plot armour for some folk is bloody awful.

[Neil]

The plot armour for some folk is bloody awful.LOL! Classic phrase!

I was watching the Family Guy Star Wars episode, and in the section where the Millenium Falcon was flying through the asteroid field and Leia was suggesting the ship might blow up at any second. Han's reply was, there's four major cast members on this ship, we'll be fine!

[Moon Knight]

They lost viewers when Abe and Glenn were killed off and now Carl’s death has every single clickbait site spreading negativity like the plague. I’ve had tons of family and friends sending me the reports constantly- “Hey, is this true? Is The Walking Dead dying?” I’m like “”No, they just killed off a character and people got mad.”

Because of this Daryl is never dying. :(

[zomtom]

I have to admit I have turned a lot of friends and relatives on to The Walking Dead. We've been enjoying discussions for years. Some of those viewers have already left the show and a number of others are talking about leaving . They say, it's become the "same-o-same-o". It's hard to argue with them. There's always a new villain to take on, and there is just too much of the living killing each other. Seriously; the vast majority of humanity is dead and walking. Killing the living is just plain stupid. And no offense but the damned zombies have just become a nuisance. I'm with this show until the end but there are a lot of people who get pissed off when a character they have learned to love is killed. Gimple and his philosophy of "no one is safe", is going to kill this show. Many of their viewers are NOT zombie enthusiasts and they're not willing to stay until the final episode. Personally, I wish AMC would replace Gimple. I think it's time.

[MinionZombie]

With complaints of "oh it's the same old conflict again", I can't help but shake my head, because quite simply it isn't like the conflicts we've had before. What came before were mere skirmishes between small groups - All Out War is like the World War II of the TWD universe, and what comes after is different to the 'find another place to hang out and start again' routine that we saw after the farm and after the prison.

Regarding "just kill Negan already!" complainers (comics spoilers post-AOW):
They're going to be pissed off, because he doesn't get killed in the comics. His survival is, indeed, a major part of the new direction of the TWD society in the wake of All Out War - they're rebuilding a world, interconnected communities, a new society, and part of that new society is some form of law and order - put simply, Negan's imprisonment. They're re-establishing the human world. It's part of exactly why this conflict isn't like the ones that have come before.

Frankly, the whine of "it's the same old thing" feels rather lazy to me. Plus, if you're not fighting people you're fighting zombies and if you're fighting neither then it'd just be sixteen hours of people farming and have a lie in. :rolleyes:

[Moon Knight]

With complaints of "oh it's the same old conflict again", I can't help but shake my head, because quite simply it isn't like the conflicts we've had before. What came before were mere skirmishes between small groups - All Out War is like the World War II of the TWD universe, and what comes after is different to the 'find another place to hang out and start again' routine that we saw after the farm and after the prison.

Regarding "just kill Negan already!" complainers (comics spoilers post-AOW):
They're going to be pissed off, because he doesn't get killed in the comics. His survival is, indeed, a major part of the new direction of the TWD society in the wake of All Out War - they're rebuilding a world, interconnected communities, a new society, and part of that new society is some form of law and order - put simply, Negan's imprisonment. They're re-establishing the human world. It's part of exactly why this conflict isn't like the ones that have come before.

Frankly, the whine of "it's the same old thing" feels rather lazy to me. Plus, if you're not fighting people you're fighting zombies and if you're fighting neither then it'd just be sixteen hours of people farming and have a lie in. :rolleyes:

On point.

As much as I’m kinda tired of the current storyline, I think that comes down to a few things but most importantly, one; I already read this story years ago and two; I really can’t wait for what comes after.

The last couple of storylines weren’t translated well imo due to the writers having the need to have our characters all over the place having multiple storylines instead of having everyone together. “No Way Out” and “All Out War” respectively.

The next story cannot do this. It won’t work.

Carol to me has felt ostracized from everyone. Morgan too.

Anyway, I have lots of pet peeves but overall I rather have TWD on than not having TWD exist in my world. I always look forward to it.

Also, I wouldn’t say fire Gimple just yet. I do believe AMC has lots to do with the show’s current negativity. We don’t know the correct details. I’m sure one day we will.

Remember they did the same thing to Andrea and that wasn’t Gimple.

[facestabber]

With complaints of "oh it's the same old conflict again", I can't help but shake my head, because quite simply it isn't like the conflicts we've had before. What came before were mere skirmishes between small groups - All Out War is like the World War II of the TWD universe, and what comes after is different to the 'find another place to hang out and start again' routine that we saw after the farm and after the prison.

Regarding "just kill Negan already!" complainers (comics spoilers post-AOW):
They're going to be pissed off, because he doesn't get killed in the comics. His survival is, indeed, a major part of the new direction of the TWD society in the wake of All Out War - they're rebuilding a world, interconnected communities, a new society, and part of that new society is some form of law and order - put simply, Negan's imprisonment. They're re-establishing the human world. It's part of exactly why this conflict isn't like the ones that have come before.

Frankly, the whine of "it's the same old thing" feels rather lazy to me. Plus, if you're not fighting people you're fighting zombies and if you're fighting neither then it'd just be sixteen hours of people farming and have a lie in. :rolleyes:

From my perspective on forums and friends and family, the "same ole same ole" isn't a whine. It's a voice that has progressively become louder and louder. This perseption is a reality for a growing number. I think it's worth respecting. I can't get my wife to watch anymore. Not because a favorite character has died but she is just bored with it. The ratings are saying something, I hope TPTB hear it and plan the end game.

[MinionZombie]

From my perspective on forums and friends and family, the "same ole same ole" isn't a whine. It's a voice that has progressively become louder and louder. This perseption is a reality for a growing number. I think it's worth respecting. I can't get my wife to watch anymore. Not because a favorite character has died but she is just bored with it. The ratings are saying something, I hope TPTB hear it and plan the end game.

I still think the "same old same old" complaint is misplaced. The conflict has been different this time to any prior conflict, the scale is far larger, and the linking of various communities makes it an entirely different dynamic as well. Perhaps the show could be telegraphing the 'different intent' a bit better, but comics readers know that it isn't the "same old same old" this time around, which is why it's frustrating to hear that complaint ... it's a bit impatient, for lack of a better word.

There are certainly things that need to be fixed/changed/improved (some of which I laid out in my blog post that I linked to a few posts back), and Moon, you also make some good points: e.g. the breaking apart of the group. I imagine some of that is down to everyone's different schedules, and some will be down to wanting to help ground other new groups with familiar faces (e.g. Carol and Morgan at The Kingdom), which I think made sense, but yes, I would like Carol to come back into the main fold more often if possible.

I'm still split right down the middle on bumping off Carl, but as you say Moon, a world with TWD is far better than one without. I just hope that they tidy up all the things they've slipped up on (some of those things are mistakes they didn't used to make, as well, which makes it all the more frustrating), but I do find it grating that the vocal complainers out there are so obsessed with the bad that they're utterly ignored all the good. The viewers need to give it a fair and balanced shot, and the makers of the show likewise need to realign their sights with fair and balanced adjustments.

[Neil]

On the subject of writing/directing - I compared today the revelation of Carl's impending situation, with The Man In the High Castle and John Smith finding out about his son. What a world of difference in the stomach punch effect etc. One seemed like a punch on the arm, while the other was basically tear inducing!

Anyhoo... Maybe it's just me!

[MinionZombie]

On the subject of writing/directing - I compared today the revelation of Carl's impending situation, with The Man In the High Castle and John Smith finding out about his son. What a world of difference in the stomach punch effect etc. One seemed like a punch on the arm, while the other was basically tear inducing!

Anyhoo... Maybe it's just me!

I've not seen The Man In The High Castle, so I can't personally compare. Although I will say that Andrew Lincoln brought a wonderful 'quietness' to the moment of realisation. Utterly helpless and speechless as the weight begins to press on him, the realisation begins to take hold. It didn't need to be a big reaction, but I trust we'll see more in 6x09 when it actually happens.

Some shit might be going down in 8B, too - he's got that murderin' jacket on. :D

Which reminds me of something, it would be a good move to have more time pass between episodes because the past few seasons have been over a matter of months, or up to a year, but in that time we've seen summer/autumn like four times, simply because of their shooting schedule (so you get the sweaty "it's so hot" stuff, then people are rocking about in jackets). I know that weather can change within a season and you can go from shorts to trousers multiple times potentially, but still, it'd be nice to bring a bit more of a realistic cycle of time.

Thinking about it, I would like to see an episode or two take place during winter. I know it wouldn't be like in the comics with major snowfall (Georgia doesn't really get much, if any, right? Although they are now in Virginia IIRC - is it any different there climate wise?) You know, just a couple of episodes in that context would be an interesting change of pace visually (frozen walkers iced up on the ground?), and then move forward in time and see more changes in terms of the world around the characters - and move the overall story forward at a similar pace.

I think we've had plenty of the 'condensed time frame' approach now. We've fixed the pacing of individual episodes and have avoided too many 'bottle' episodes, or "all the focus on this one place" episodes, but we could now do with fixing the overall time frame in how events are paced (rather than hours, let's have days or weeks, maybe even months, between/during individual episodes). I think that would help free up storytelling possibilites.

[shootemindehead]

Regarding "just kill Negan already!" complainers (comics spoilers post-AOW):


That's not really the point though Mini.

It's the scenes where people have an obvious chance to kill him - even after espousing that they want to kill him - and then don't that's drawing the "Kill Negan" fire.

It's irritating and, frankly, a bit insulting to the viewer.

The answer - don't write those scenes.

I know what happens to Negan in the comics. But I'm still annoyed by having him repeatedly stay alive in the face of an obvious opportunity for his death.

[Moon Knight]

That's not really the point though Mini.

It's the scenes where people have an obvious chance to kill him - even after espousing that they want to kill him - and then don't that's drawing the "Kill Negan" fire.

It's irritating and, frankly, a bit insulting to the viewer.

The answer - don't write those scenes.

I know what happens to Negan in the comics. But I'm still annoyed by having him repeatedly stay alive in the face of an obvious opportunity for his death.

I have to agree. The smallest of tweaks can fix scenes like that too.

On the other end, how many of Rick’s people could Negan have killed by now and didn’t?

In my mind, and the way it is written, honestly, Negan comes across as the good guy while Rick and the others kill on sight.

[beat_truck]

I've ALWAYS thought it would be interesting to see the zombie apocalypse in the winter time. I don't know why it has almost never been done.

[JDP]

I have to agree. The smallest of tweaks can fix scenes like that too.

On the other end, how many of Rick’s people could Negan have killed by now and didn’t?

In my mind, and the way it is written, honestly, Negan comes across as the good guy while Rick and the others kill on sight.

But that's because Negan is more interested in exploiting people for his own benefit. He plainly said so in the episode where Rick & company first meet Negan face to face. So Negan is not really a "good guy" at all. He is just about as "good" as a slave-trader/owner! Those guys also were not interested in killing people. And not because of humanitarian reasons, mind you, but because it was bad for "business". Dead people cannot be sold and cannot work. Rick & company are certainly the "good guys". They never exploited anyone, they are interested in trading with other groups, and the only time they kill anyone is in self-defense.

[Moon Knight]

But that's because Negan is more interested in exploiting people for his own benefit. He plainly said so in the episode where Rick & company first meet Negan face to face. So Negan is not really a "good guy" at all. He is just about as "good" as a slave-trader/owner! Those guys also were not interested in killing people. And not because of humanitarian reasons, mind you, but because it was bad for "business". Dead people cannot be sold and cannot work. Rick & company are certainly the "good guys". They never exploited anyone, they are interested in trading with other groups, and the only time they kill anyone is in self-defense.

I’m not saying the roles are litteraly reversed, I’m just saying that’s how it’s kinda portrayed. Negan even said their lookouts weren’t dead but simply knocked out. Negan is definitely a bad guy but there is a method to his madness. I don’t consider him an evil character at all.

- - - Updated - - -


I've ALWAYS thought it would be interesting to see the zombie apocalypse in the winter time. I don't know why it has almost never been done.

The “No Way Out” storyline in the comic took place during a winter storm; a great visual it was.

I believe Kirkman himself didn’t realize it rarely snows that bad in Georgia, he hasn’t used winter weather again since.

Then again, the story itself is pretty far removed from Georgia now.

[shootemindehead]

I have to agree. The smallest of tweaks can fix scenes like that too.

On the other end, how many of Rick’s people could Negan have killed by now and didn’t?

In my mind, and the way it is written, honestly, Negan comes across as the good guy while Rick and the others kill on sight.

Sure. But doesn't Negan want to keep people alive so he can exploit their labour? It makes a certain sense that he wouldn't be shooting everyone on sight. Also, he's mad and you just don't know what mad will do.

EDIT: What JDP said.

[MinionZombie]

Shoot - yes, it's a fair point that I agree with that there are some sloppy scenes where the opportunity is there, but because of the way the scenes have been blocked or choreographed, it stretches credibility. They need to be far more specific in frustrating those attempts for Rick or whoever else - e.g. Rick using the handle of Lucille rather than taking a good swing, it should have been blocked in a different way: either Negan grabs the handle before Rick can even lift it in order to strike, or Rick goes for the full swing but Negan kicks him (in the fun zone, probably) and Rick buckles.

Like Moon and many others (myself included) have been saying - just a few small tweaks could cover all of these little gaps.

The "just kill Negan already!" thing is partly out of order, though, as there are some members of the audience who have wanted him to be simply gunned down since 7x01 - like, immediately - which would just be moronic, frankly. Good drama doesn't come from giving a happy resolution within five minutes, after all ... but yes, the blocking/choreography of certain key scenes where the opportunity was there need to be fixed from this point forward (they should have been fixed to begin with).

So that's another lesson the TWD family can learn - better focus on the blocking/choreography to sell what you're putting out there (in this case it's frustrating all attempts to kill Negan). Indeed, some hints or scenes that gave more of an impression that Negan was not only a good tactician, but a sneaky bastard as well as a top class brawler would have further helped when combined with better blocking and choreography.

[kidgloves]

Some thoughts.

What if Carl is immune/the cure and his dad's outburst in the media is a work.
If not, does anyone think Chandler has the acting chops to carry the show going forward?

[JDP]

Some thoughts.

What if Carl is immune/the cure and his dad's outburst in the media is a work.
If not, does anyone think Chandler has the acting chops to carry the show going forward?

It would be interesting if he was. We might see a whole new version of the "Eugene quest" (except that this time there would be a real fact backing it up) to find some biologists/virologists/geneticists who might be able to figure out something to stop the zombie plague.

[facestabber]

Some thoughts.

What if Carl is immune/the cure and his dad's outburst in the media is a work.
If not, does anyone think Chandler has the acting chops to carry the show going forward?

I've had that same thought. Thought it would be cool as a way of closing out the show. Now your second question is a valid concern. Chandler seems like a good human being. His acting has improved and this last episode is a testament to that. I don't want to pick on a young adult but I would have concerns about him carrying the show. I just don't think his talent level is there. Or maybe that's just me because I'm not interested in a story without Rick.

[MinionZombie]

Some thoughts.

What if Carl is immune/the cure and his dad's outburst in the media is a work.
If not, does anyone think Chandler has the acting chops to carry the show going forward?

I'm not so sure about that. I'll have to take him at his word (albeit in his usual squirmy, needlessly obtuse 'evading spoilers' manner), but Gimple said on Talking Dead (when they asked about the possibility of Carl being immune) that the bite will play out "as expected" - in other words, death.

I would like Carl to be immune in that it'd keep the character on the show, but on the other hand I wouldn't like him to be immune because this whole thing would turn out to be a farce, a dupe, a smart-arse F-U to the audience after an already controversial move. Hence my utterly split opinion on Carl being bitten.

[Neil]

So you're suggesting losing an eye can make you immune? Interesting...

:)

[JDP]

So you're suggesting losing an eye can make you immune? Interesting...

:)

No, but what if his immune system somehow was resistant to whatever is it that is causing the zombies? Why should this be impossible? In real life with actual diseases such cases have happened. For example, there are people who are not affected by HIV. And there was no way of telling if Carl was such an analogous example before because up until now he was lucky enough to have avoided a zombie bite.

[MinionZombie]

No, but what if his immune system somehow was resistant to whatever is it that is causing the zombies? Why should this be impossible? In real life with actual diseases such cases have happened. For example, there are people who are not affected by HIV. And there was no way of telling if Carl was such an analogous example before because up until now he was lucky enough to have avoided a zombie bite.

I've always felt that TWD should end with the discovery of either someone being immune (naturally, with no real medical facilities, nobody would ever know), or with Rick dying from a severe bite wound to leave Carl as a capable leader, but then it transpires that Rick doesn't resurrect. Either he's immune or the virus is over. But that won't happen with Carl kicking the bucket in the next episode ... I quite doubt they'll pull a psych-out, especially when they caught so much flack for the (ultimately entertaining) Glenn under the dumpster incident.

[facestabber]

I've always felt that TWD should end with the discovery of either someone being immune (naturally, with no real medical facilities, nobody would ever know), or with Rick dying from a severe bite wound to leave Carl as a capable leader, but then it transpires that Rick doesn't resurrect. Either he's immune or the virus is over. But that won't happen with Carl kicking the bucket in the next episode ... I quite doubt they'll pull a psych-out, especially when they caught so much flack for the (ultimately entertaining) Glenn under the dumpster incident.

Dumpstergate pissed off alot of people. If they tried another one, there may be riots. I really miss Glenn.

[MinionZombie]

Dumpstergate pissed off alot of people. If they tried another one, there may be riots. I really miss Glenn.

The reaction to Glenn getting Lucille'd was interesting - it's as it happens in the comics, and it was brutal there. So they were going almost 100% by-the-letter on that one, and it's not like viewers weren't forewarned that 7x01 was gonna be a tough one. The inclusion of Abraham was a twist on the comics, but by that point the character was already dead (Denise got Abe's death from the comics) so he was on borrowed time.

It'd be good if Gimple & Co didn't try to switch things up too much just to try and trick viewers who are familiar with the comics. Yes, we may be expecting certain things, and yes, sometimes it's nice to get a surprise, but it only really works if it's still according to the spirit of the source material and doesn't take people for suckers with cheap tricks or psych-outs. There's already enough change-ups to tweak things, and it's nice to see a more finessed version of what Kirkman originally wrote in certain instances.

I ultimately enjoyed the Glenn/dumpster stuff as there were some really cool scenes in there, but I do also remember the amount of flack it got fired at it as well (some of it fairly deserved), especially as the mystery was drawn out over several weeks ... and then we circle back to the issue of too much 'real world time' passing compared to mere hours of 'in-story time', which they really need to move away from come Season 9.

[Neil]

I've always felt that TWD should end with the discovery of either someone being immune (naturally, with no real medical facilities, nobody would ever know).

That of course would sort of hark back to Romero's original Day script ;)

[Trin]

I am generally one of the negative ones who gets a reputation for disliking most TWD episodes. And I agree with several of the commenters who are tired of the plot contrivances and WTF moments. But I will defend the show in that it is no worse now than ever, and none of that keeps me from watching it.

I'm not really that invested anymore. The reason for me is simpler than bad plot or characters dying or pacing issues. For me, it is simply that the show is no longer about survival against a zombie apocalypse. It is now a character study and the conflict is 99% derived from interpersonal or inter-community disputes. The show is no longer hitting the sub-genre that fuels my highest level of interest.

I do like Negan. I didn't like him at first and I didn't see his value to the Saviours as making sense or having a purpose. I've changed my mind on that after seeing more of the inside workings. While his code of conduct is brutal it is logical, orderly, and I can see how it has kept the group running.

Regarding Carl, I am not terribly upset to see him bitten, but I'm annoyed at the circumstances and timing. I feel like they undermined any meaning that came from his actions by having him screw it up so badly he'll die for it. He was defying Rick's position and has now proven Rick correct. Plus, it just feels hackish that Carl gets bitten in a scenario that they've confronted successfully hundreds of times.

[MinionZombie]

That of course would sort of hark back to Romero's original Day script ;)

I really must re-read that as it's been so many years since I last gave it a going over.


I am generally one of the negative ones who gets a reputation for disliking most TWD episodes. And I agree with several of the commenters who are tired of the plot contrivances and WTF moments. But I will defend the show in that it is no worse now than ever, and none of that keeps me from watching it.

I do like Negan. I didn't like him at first and I didn't see his value to the Saviours as making sense or having a purpose. I've changed my mind on that after seeing more of the inside workings. While his code of conduct is brutal it is logical, orderly, and I can see how it has kept the group running.

Regarding Carl, I am not terribly upset to see him bitten, but I'm annoyed at the circumstances and timing. I feel like they undermined any meaning that came from his actions by having him screw it up so badly he'll die for it. He was defying Rick's position and has now proven Rick correct. Plus, it just feels hackish that Carl gets bitten in a scenario that they've confronted successfully hundreds of times.

1) "no worse now than ever" ... hmmm ... I'll be honest and say that it's not quite as good as it used to be, there's some sloppiness that has crept in here and there and some rough edges, but they tend to fix things season-by-season, but in the last couple of seasons they've also ended up injecting new problems that need to be fixed. The peak of the show was Seasons 4 & 5, but that's not to say that it's no longer good, because it is still good and I do still enjoy it an awful lot. :) It'd just be nice for some of the issues to be fixed ... but I also remind myself to focus on the good things in the show more than the bad things, as it's so easy to run your opinion down if you just look at the bad bits and ignore the sheer amount of good. We're so spoiled now. Remember the dark days of the late 90s with sod all happening in the zombie world? Admittedly it's gone overboard in the culture now, but well...

2) A fix from Season 7 into 8A. They never quite explained the mechanics of the Sanctuary and of Negan himself, but they nailed it this season - especially with that episode that showed the inner workings as a power vacuum presented itself, like in the wake of Stalin's death or something. The paranoia, panic, 'top table' manipulation, and civil unrest etc were all excellent and made it one of the best episodes of TWD ever for me. :cool::thumbsup:

3) But surely surviving these zombie encounters is going to end badly sooner or later? Wouldn't it be more unrealistic for nobody to get bit in such a struggle? Carl's wound was very similar to that of Deanna, too. She got into a horizontal tussle with a walker and got bitten on the stomach/lower back IIRC.

As for not enough focus on zombies - yeah, the past season and a half has maybe not had enough zombie stuff. Season 6 had that excellent period of time (basically all of 6x01 through 6x09) where they had to tackle a giant herd. It'd be silly to always be battling zombie herds, and you can only squeeze so much drama out of walkers - you need the human-on-human drama as well to balance things out and provide much deeper stuff to chew on generally - but some more walker threat would be very much welcome again. Inject a bit more of that 'zombie survival' aspect again - e.g. like we had in Season 6. Those scenes with Glenn and Nick desperately trying to get around the encroaching walkers got increasingly tense as it unfolded.

That gradual encroachment is beyond chilling - the inevitability of it, they'll get you no matter how many you put down, they just keep coming relentlessly, and if you pause for just a moment too long (or at all) you'll get yourself cornered and then you're screwed. Scary stuff!

[Moon Knight]

Carl had to have gotten bitten in a way that didn’t involve Negan or the Saviors in order for his death to push the story forward.

And like MZ said, I love that some people, especially main characters, can still get bitten if not careful. They could have shot that scene a bit better but I understand why they chose that particular route.