TWD 8x09 "Honor" episode discussion... **SPOILERS**

[MinionZombie]

Please keep all talk of episode 8x09 "Honor" specifically inside this thread.

If you have a theory for a following episode, please use the "spoiler tags" (visit the HPOTD FAQ to find out how to use them if you don't already know).

Similarly, if you're going to discuss plot points from the comic book, please use "spoiler tags" - not everyone is up-to-date on them, and some people don't read them at all.

Enjoy!

Directed by: Greg Nicotero
Written by: Matthew Negrete & Channing Powell

It's back, folks. Time to finish off All Out War!

[Neil]

Christ I hope the series improves...

[Moon Knight]

Christ I hope the series improves...

Me too, man. Me too.

[MinionZombie]

Gee, that's the spirit... :rolleyes:

:lol:

Seriously, though, from what I've read 8b is all about polishing off All Out War (ergo, more thrust and direction) and setting up a new world for Season 9 - at which point Angela Kang is taking over as showrunner. :)

[Moon Knight]

What I'm hoping for is All out War to end before the finale and 8x16 is all setup for the next story line.

[beat_truck]

What I'm hoping for is All out War to end before the finale and 8x16 is all setup for the next story line.

Agreed. Time to move on. Negan and his one liners just aren't interesting enough to drag into another season.

I also hope the show improves, but I'm not holding my breath. It's never going to have the magic the first seasons had, but it still has the potential to be good.

[Moon Knight]

I’m never gonna expect it to be like it once was; the comic was never able to capture that magic after AoW neither. What I do hope is a fresh coat of paint for not just the storylines and character, but for the narrative structure as well. Time to move away from the formula.

[facestabber]

I reflect on all the moments of Rick and Carl at the quarry, farm, prison Terminus etc etc. A father teaching his boy about life. A different kind of life for sure but it was always building toward a passing of the torch. And that torch certainly got snuffed tonight. Carl has never been my favorite character but I respected his role and necessity for this show. Right now I feel cheated. It almost felt as if Gimple tossed the entire premise out the window and offed Carl as a way to justify keeping Negan alive.

This is my show. I won't quit on it but I'm am very nervous where this may be going.

[Moon Knight]

I’m okay with Judith getting the shine as long as there is a decent enough time jump.

[JDP]

Didn't anyone inform Henry that Gavin wasn't responsible for killing his brother? It was that a-hole with the long hair (now a prisoner at the Hilltop) that was responsible for that.

Also: was it smart of Carl to shoot himself? What if he is in fact immune to the zombie disease and he is only going through some superficial symptoms, and in the end would end up getting well and surviving? Sure, it's a slim chance that such is the case, but you never know... I sure as heck would not do it. Never lose hope until you have actually kicked the bucket. Once you are dead, if you come back let someone else take care of you. There's nothing to lose now.

[MinionZombie]

Wow - that was an emotional rollercoaster of a gut wrencher! All the father/son Rick/Carl stuff was great but also tough to watch, the writers did a great job with all that stuff.

While I'm sad to see Carl go, and it is a major departure from the comics, the comics do/did have a gigantic plot hole that needed filling in. Was killing Carl the way to do it? That's up for debate, but the lessons he leaves Rick with in death are potent.

As for Rick against the tree with a serious wound in his torso - I dearly hope they're not stupid enough to kill Rick - but I've got enough trust, because him saying "my mercy prevails over my wrath" (as glimpsed in 8x01) would be pretty damn pointless if he was just bumped off. The man has to shepherd Judith through the apocalypse now - speaking of which, the handing of the hat over to Judith was excellent (they got some really good reaction shots out of the little girl, too) - and topped off with Daryl's respectful farewell to Carl as he protects Judith (the Rick/Daryl brotherhood reaffirmed) ... I was welling up, I gotta say. Some powerful stuff going on in this episode.

One gripe - Morgan's slow on the uptake, isn't he? He's got a line of sight on the gunners in the windows who are popping walker heads and he doesn't try to take them out! :rolleyes: A bit of judicious editing (to make it appear like a very short moment of time - like a few seconds) and that would have papered over the issue with how that scene was covered.

But that's really my only gripe from this episode. While Henry has killed the wrong man in Gavin, why would they have told the kid specifically which man killed his brother anyway? Besides, there's an interesting mirror image to Carl in Henry (not staying in the house, lol, as well as killing someone when they're too immature to know the impact of such an action) and the jolt it gives Morgan is quite necessary as he was full pelt going down the "I need to clear" road again.

Also - the moment where Morgan tears that dude's guts out through the gunshot wound? Awesome! Nice to see some nasty gore in there after Season 7 got a little shy on some occasions.


Also: was it smart of Carl to shoot himself? What if he is in fact immune to the zombie disease and he is only going through some superficial symptoms, and in the end would end up getting well and surviving? Sure, it's a slim chance that such is the case, but you never know... I sure as heck would not do it. Never lose hope until you have actually kicked the bucket. Once you are dead, if you come back let someone else take care of you. There's nothing to lose now.

There's been zero evidence of people not turning after being bitten, so why would they start thinking that now? Just because you might deal with it one way, doesn't mean Carl is going to deal with it that way.

The reason Carl shot himself was purely to spare both Rick and Michonne the agony of having to do it (and Carl would know a thing or two about that agony, having been in the position where he had to execute his mother lest she turn). Thematically, that was a really nice way to tie that whole thing up, as well.

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Really looking forward to the next episode - and indeed the rest of Season 8b. :hyper:

8x09 Memes:


https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Z8QRr_l5vQA/WpRAUGbf2_I/AAAAAAAAFpg/4WaYT1eIcFwjyeoqYyy32shUmwr_Fa7YQCLcBGAs/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_8_Deanna_Rick_Alexandria_P rotect_Nobody_Can_8x09_DeadShed.jpg

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-SH3dNTBPO-g/WpRATSdZ9KI/AAAAAAAAFpc/jCn47GmWSZ4SXt6o9Osy3TgPrpxpTG-AACLcBGAs/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_8_Carl_Henry_Carol_Now_Who _Not_Stay_House_8x09_DeadShed.jpg



:)

[Moon Knight]

Yeah, good material, while a bit long, his goodbye scenes really choked me up a bit. Loved the opening montage.

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MZ- that first meme :D

[facestabber]

JDP I too hope that immunity will happen at some point. I really hope it's Rick but maybe it will be Judith. The only way we're gonna find out is if someone gets bit, doesn't choose suicide and battles the fever but pulls through. As far as anyone expecting to be immune or hopeful for it I'd say that's a dead cause due to what Dr Jenner told them at CDC. And additionally by everything they have seen since. So if/when it happens it will be a surprise. But whoever it is will be a very important person for research and potentially creating a cure. And I'm still bummed by Carl. I just don't believe it was a good move.

[JDP]

But that's really my only gripe from this episode. While Henry has killed the wrong man in Gavin, why would they have told the kid specifically which man killed his brother anyway?

Why wouldn't they? Specially seeing as how hell-bent on revenge the kid is, it would seem only appropriate to let him know who exactly is it that is responsible for his brother's death.


There's been zero evidence of people not turning after being bitten, so why would they start thinking that now? Just because you might deal with it one way, doesn't mean Carl is going to deal with it that way.

The reason Carl shot himself was purely to spare both Rick and Michonne the agony of having to do it (and Carl would know a thing or two about that agony, having been in the position where he had to execute his mother lest she turn). Thematically, that was a really nice way to tie that whole thing up, as well.

As facestabber's post implies, that is because no one in the group seems to have thought deep enough about such a possibility (and it is very possible, since we know of other diseases that are deadly to most people but yet some people are immune to them.) They just seem to take for granted that no one is immune. But what if someone actually IS??? How are they going to ever find out if they don't give all bitten people the chance of going through the whole process and seeing if they actually make it through without dying and becoming a zombie? Once you are dead and come back, your friends or family can take care of not letting you remain a zombie. Call it the "Roger" (from Dawn) policy, if you will. Just wait long enough to see what happens. If the bitten person dies and becomes a zombie, he/she is quickly put out of his/her misery then, but not before. It means he/she was not immune. But if someone makes it through... BINGO! You have a very good chance at solving the zombie problem.

[beat_truck]

It might solve the problem of people returning as zombies, but it sure won't solve the little problem of the millions (possibly billions?) already walking around.:D

Killing Coral off was definitely a questionable decision. As far as Rick's wound at the end, surely they aren't stupid enough to kill him off. Hopefully.:confused: If they do, I will absolutely be done with the show.

[Moon Knight]

They aren’t killing Rick. At least not anytime soon. Comic readers pretty much have that image of Rick bleeding figured out.

I don’t want anyone immune. That’s some Zombie Nation stuff right there.

[MinionZombie]

As far as immunity - if they ever do that, it'd make most sense to do it at the very end of the show's run as part of a plot. The virus begins to retreat, there will be no more new walkers, and mankind can move forward with confidence. However, whether they do it at all is a whole other argument.

If you're going to work the idea of immunity in then you have to do it wholeheartedly as an entire plotline, you can't just cram it in with Carl - which would also get in the way of a whole bunch of other story being told, as well as the main reason that Carl is being killed off from a thematic perspective (it is also intended to help cover up a massive plot hole in the comics).

I've also been pondering the death of Carl from another perspective. The comics are still going and Kirkman keeps going on about doing it for hundreds more issues (please, don't, some things have to end and are better not being dragged out unnecessarily), but the show can't possibly linger on that long. The brazen boasts of "let's do 20 seasons" or whatever is just silly bluster, few shows can last that long, it's just not realistic. So - with Carl's death being a major departure from the comics, this presents an opportunity to take the best elements of the post-AOW comics (which has been, to be honest, a rather hit-and-miss period of the comics) and make something fresher and, hopefully, better with an eye on wrapping the whole thing up. Surely the show is nearer to its end than its beginning, that's just how these things go, many of the greatest shows don't get beyond five or six seasons, so to be going into a ninth is quite a feat. Can you really see it going beyond, say, 12 seasons reasonably? Divergence now could be a good opportunity for the show to act more independently of the comics, cherry-picking the best bits of what's to come, and reworking things to suit itself.

Even Game of Thrones has split from the books (albeit because it overtook GRRM), and it's doing well.

JDP - there's as much reason to tell Henry the name and description of the exact man who killed his brother as to not tell him. They didn't tell him, end of, and in-so-doing it works better from a storytelling perspective as Henry is just a child and is reacting immaturely. He's blaming any Saviour, or the Saviours in general, but it was the lanky-haired scumbag who specifically did the deed, yet Henry wants any Saviour blood ... but it won't bring him anything good.


Yeah, good material, while a bit long, his goodbye scenes really choked me up a bit. Loved the opening montage.

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MZ- that first meme :D

1) Aye, that opening montage was excellent - like a 'stages of acceptance' thing, but it also illustrates what a hero Carl had turned into. The bite was a cruel twist of fate in this world and something that could happen to anyone (good for Carl to make that abundantly clear to Rick who, in his shock and grief, was blaming the Saviours for it), but Rick did a stand up job as a father and brought Carl back from the brink of becoming something terrible and made a good man out of him. Powerful stuff and important going forward.

2) Cheers, hehe. Ever since Rick and The Gang rocked up it's been one thing after another for Alexandria. :lol:


They aren’t killing Rick. At least not anytime soon. Comic readers pretty much have that image of Rick bleeding figured out.

Hmmm, I'm gonna have to dip back into the comics now... :D

[Neil]

Well, I enjoyed most of that episode. Fingers crossed the next one builds on it!

[JDP]

It might solve the problem of people returning as zombies, but it sure won't solve the little problem of the millions (possibly billions?) already walking around.:D

No, but it means that the zombies, no matter how many are there around, will have their days numbered. If a vaccine/cure is developed by using the immune person/s, there won't be any more dying people increasing the zombie ranks. Then it is a matter of destroying all the ones remaining around. It is a problem that future generations would have to finish solving, but the present generation is the one that made the basis for the eventual destruction of the zombies possible by finding immune people.

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As far as immunity - if they ever do that, it'd make most sense to do it at the very end of the show's run as part of a plot. The virus begins to retreat, there will be no more new walkers, and mankind can move forward with confidence. However, whether they do it at all is a whole other argument.

If you're going to work the idea of immunity in then you have to do it wholeheartedly as an entire plotline, you can't just cram it in with Carl - which would also get in the way of a whole bunch of other story being told, as well as the main reason that Carl is being killed off from a thematic perspective (it is also intended to help cover up a massive plot hole in the comics).

Finding any immune person would only be the beginning of the final chapter in the saga, not exactly the very end of it. Now you also have to gather people knowledgeable in medicine/biology/genetics who can develop the cure for the rest of mankind. The problem itself won't go away just by finding the immune person/s, some work still has to be done after to take advantage of this finding. And of course, the immune person/s would have to be most jealously guarded from harm, as he/she/they carry within himself/herself/themselves the potential solution to the whole mess.


JDP - there's as much reason to tell Henry the name and description of the exact man who killed his brother as to not tell him. They didn't tell him, end of, and in-so-doing it works better from a storytelling perspective as Henry is just a child and is reacting immaturely. He's blaming any Saviour, or the Saviours in general, but it was the lanky-haired scumbag who specifically did the deed, yet Henry wants any Saviour blood ... but it won't bring him anything good.

Considering that they want to get away from the "kill them all!" approach, it makes more sense that they would inform the kid about it, rather than let him go around on a rampage killing any Savior in sight. Besides, the kid might get himself killed by trying such a stunt. He got lucky that Gavin was unarmed and with his back turned on him. Once again, the more reason to inform him that the man who is in fact responsible for his brother's death is actually already a prisoner. No need for him to go around trying to kill any Savior in sight.

[beat_truck]

Well, if we are thinking that far into it, if there was an immune person, and a cure/vaccine was created by people who basically all at this point lack the medical expertise and resources to work with, it would still be nearly impossible to make enough of it and distribute it to all of the pockets of survivors in the world. And, even if everyone was cured to where they wouldn't return as a zombie from a bite any other cause of death, it would still be nearly impossible for the relatively few survivors to destroy a world full of zombies that will still kill you and eat you. The survivors would be better off just focusing on rebuilding and surviving the best they can while the zombies just decompose and aren't a threat anymore.

Lots of IFs involved, aren't there.:D

Only my opinion of course.

[JDP]

Well, if we are thinking that far into it, if there was an immune person, and a cure/vaccine was created by people who basically all at this point lack the medical expertise and resources to work with, it would still be nearly impossible to make enough of it and distribute it to all of the pockets of survivors in the world. And, even if everyone was cured to where they wouldn't return as a zombie from a bite any other cause of death, it would still be nearly impossible for the relatively few survivors to destroy a world full of zombies that will still kill you and eat you. The survivors would be better off just focusing on rebuilding and surviving the best they can while the zombies just decompose and aren't a threat anymore.

Lots of IFs involved, aren't there.:D

Only my opinion of course.

If almost everyone who dies for whatever causes comes back, that will keep on replenishing their ranks. Cut that source of "supply" and the zombies have their days numbered. It doesn't matter whether it's just a few weeks or many years, but sooner or later they will be gone, even if the humans don't go around destroying all the remaining ones they can find, eventually they will decay and self-destroy.

As for people with the required knowledge to come up with a cure: there still are doctors around who have survived as well, so it would not be surprising if there are people still alive competent enough to look into the matter and try to come up with a solution. It's just a matter of going around looking for as many other survivors as possible and finding what savvy people they have among their ranks who can help in this matter. Sooner or later you are bound to find someone who can.

[beat_truck]

As for people with the required knowledge to come up with a cure: there still are doctors around who have survived as well, so it would not be surprising if there are people still alive competent enough to look into the matter and try to come up with a solution. It's just a matter of going around looking for as many other survivors as possible and finding what savvy people they have among their ranks who can help in this matter. Sooner or later you are bound to find someone who can.
Even if they did happen to find someone with the know how, which is HIGHLY unlikely, the rest still remains true. There probably aren't any functional medical labs several years into the zombie apocalypse. Making a zombie vaccine/cure isn't quite as simple as Eugene reloading some spent ammo.:)

[facestabber]

Even if they did happen to find someone with the know how, which is HIGHLY unlikely, the rest still remains true. There probably aren't any functional medical labs several years into the zombie apocalypse. Making a zombie vaccine/cure isn't quite as simple as Eugene reloading some spent ammo.:)

I understand what JDP is getting at. Immunity is a bare bones beginning to the potential rebuild of the human race. It wouldn't be easy. It won't happen rapidly. It provides hope in a world that has appeared mostly hopeless. Rick Grimes doesn't expect to see a functioning government, communications and the New York stock exchange in his life time. But starting new and rebuilding would seem more attainable if the initial cause could have a cure.

[MinionZombie]

I understand what JDP is getting at. Immunity is a bare bones beginning to the potential rebuild of the human race. It wouldn't be easy. It won't happen rapidly. It provides hope in a world that has appeared mostly hopeless. Rick Grimes doesn't expect to see a functioning government, communications and the New York stock exchange in his life time. But starting new and rebuilding would seem more attainable if the initial cause could have a cure.

Either TWD would introduce that as a glimmer of hope at the end of the show's run (like a hint at what's to come for humanity), or they'd need to write a whole season where we see a return to some sort of civilisation that we recognise - re-instatement of government, services, laws etc - as if it's the re-birth of America as a nation, perhaps even getting into contact with other nations around the globe, and then somehow leaving us with this new world that's being constructed.

Ultimately, though, the show began with Rick Grimes and it needs to end, somehow, with Rick Grimes - bookended with Grimes. :)

[Moon Knight]

Ultimately, though, the show began with Rick Grimes and it needs to end, somehow, with Rick Grimes - bookended with Grimes. :)

This right here.

Also, concerning Bleeding Rick. This is pulled from the source material during All Out War.

Only read below if you have already read "All Out War" in the comics.

SPOILERS!

Rick is shot with a bolt that he thinks is contaminated with walker guts. Those who are also shot and stabbed with contaminated weapons begin to slowly die around Rick; he thinks he's going to die too. However, Dwight spares Rick as Rick comes to realize he's safe from infection. I believe this scene of Rick hurt, bleeding by the tree comes from this direct moment from the books. I also believe while Carl is the one that told Rick about their happy future, it's Rick's own version we see while Rick thinks he's dying. Just my thoughts on it.

[MinionZombie]

Ah, yes, thanks for the reminder Moon! I'd forgotten about that bit.

As for the visions and who's having them - they were Carl's, but I believe in the final sequence of the episode the dream becomes Rick's. He takes it on board and he's moving forward with that hope for the future. :)

[Moon Knight]

Ah, yes, thanks for the reminder Moon! I'd forgotten about that bit.

As for the visions and who's having them - they were Carl's, but I believe in the final sequence of the episode the dream becomes Rick's. He takes it on board and he's moving forward with that hope for the future. :)

Yeah, that makes sense.

So, it's safe to assume Eugene is coming back to team Rick?

[MinionZombie]

Yeah, that makes sense.

So, it's safe to assume Eugene is coming back to team Rick?

I'd hope so. I want to see Eugene resurrect himself - and it'd make sense with mercy prevailing over wrath, and all. Albeit in a dream sequence, it was nice to see him not being cowardly or kowtowed.

[Neil]

I must admit all the flash backs for grey old Rick etc did resolve quite nicely. ie: It's was simply Carl's visions of an ideal peaceful outcome etc.

[Moon Knight]

I must admit all the flash backs for grey old Rick etc did resolve quite nicely. ie: It's was simply Carl's visions of an ideal peaceful outcome etc.

I agree! Everything came together quite well.

[clanglee]

I feel bad about this. . .buuuuut. . . .I'm kinda happy Carl is gone. . . he's gotten on my nerves for quite a while now.

[shootemindehead]

I was coming around to him. He'd grown up a bit and was becoming a decent young man.

But, I swear, I wanted to cap him myself and speed up his death scene. Went on a bit too long.

Those vaseline smeered flash forwards aren't doing anything for me either. Hopefully, it was just Carl's fever dream before Mr.9mm said hellp to his brain.

On the subject of immunity. I don't really want to see that happen in 'The Walking Dead'. But, I'd be open to the finale including a scene where someone who was bitten fatally, didn't revive, but just died. Perhaps Rick. That kind of "immunity" would suffice.