TWD 8x15 "Worth" episode discussion... **SPOILERS**

[MinionZombie]

Please keep all talk of episode 8x15 "Worth" specifically inside this thread.

If you have a theory for a following episode, please use the "spoiler tags" (visit the HPOTD FAQ to find out how to use them if you don't already know).

Similarly, if you're going to discuss plot points from the comic book, please use "spoiler tags" - not everyone is up-to-date on them, and some people don't read them at all.

Enjoy!

Directed by: Michael Slovis
Written by: David Leslie Johnson & Corey Reed


With the threat of the Saviors still looming, Aaron continues searching for allies; Daryl and Rosita take action and confront an old friend.

https://dailydead.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/TWD-815-02.jpg

[JDP]

Not difficult at all to predict that Simon handled his plans in a very sloppy manner and that he would end up paying for it. Leaving Jadis alive was the first huge mistake (yeah, yeah, we saw that she got away from the ensuing massacre and played dead, but how exactly did she pull this escape? She was right in front of Simon and his men when the massacre began, gaping and watching, so how did she get away from the "firing squad" without getting easily spotted and shot down???) Not counting with more support among the Saviors before making the killing move on Negan was his second huge error. Both easily predicted in a previous thread.

A bit strange that an unarmed cowardly weasel like Gregory somehow got to the Sanctuary safe & sound, yet of all those tough & armed Saviors last week (all of whom escaped at the same time as Gregory) none were able to pull this off. Yes, they had a couple of injured people slowing them down, but wouldn't that also have slowed down Gregory? How come this cowardly scoundrel had the guts to continue the trip alone while all the Saviors felt they had to stop and plan their next move?

For some strange reason, Dwight became too comfortable at the Sanctuary, specially fully knowing that Laura could still be alive and somehow find her way back and spill the beans about him. This dude should not have gone back to the Sanctuary. He had a good chance of "getting lost" again during the Hilltop battle.

I know that Eugene is coming across as a "traitor" nowadays, but can his former companions really fully blame this guy as liberally as they do? I mean, if he does not do what Negan tells him, he is dead. There is no way around this. It's not like he really had much of any other choice. I am not trying to excuse his recent a-hole attitude, but Team Rick should really be a bit more understanding of this guy's predicament. They basically abandoned him there at the Sanctuary to his uncertain fate, yet he managed to successfully use his knowledge to survive, and now they want to place the full blame on him for that? Maybe Team Rick could at least have attempted a rescue mission, something to try to get Eugene out of there, but nothing. They just seemingly forgot about this dude and did not even move a finger to try to help him. Now they are acting all outraged that he seems fully integrated with the Saviors. Not very surprising that he is, really. Again, it's not like he had much of any other choice.

[MinionZombie]

Juicy Simon/Negan/Dwight episode!!! Loved all that stuff!

Now I remember who Laura is - if someone had just said "neck tattoo lady" I'd have recalled much sooner! :D So many names to remember on this show! If they don't get mentioned you've little hope in remembering them all. Anyway - really looking forward to seeing how all these machinations play out further, especially after such a satisfying episode for closing the Simon character arc. Steven Ogg did a fantastic job on the show and I'll miss his character, but a satisfying bad guy has to have an end sooner or later, and I'd say Simon is one of the best and subtly complex bad guys the show has ever had. :thumbsup:

Wasn't so keen on the Aaron storyline in this episode, didn't really connect with it, but fortunately it wasn't too big a portion of the episode. I assume the Oceansiders are going to finally get involved after he demonstrated his willingness to fight ... but dude, seriously, he just yomps off with no food or water and just a knife? I know time is very important, but yeesh...

Anyway! Carl letters - good stuff (really liked the bits of 'pre-ZA' life that were mentioned in his letter to Rick).


Not difficult at all to predict that Simon handled his plans in a very sloppy manner and that he would end up paying for it.

Simon has previous on leaving certain people alive - as we learned in this episode, he was the one who ordered the selective massacre at Oceanside (killing all the males). The pattern of behaviour exists.


A bit strange that an unarmed cowardly weasel like Gregory somehow got to the Sanctuary safe & sound, yet of all those tough & armed Saviors last week (all of whom escaped at the same time as Gregory) none were able to pull this off. Yes, they had a couple of injured people slowing them down, but wouldn't that also have slowed down Gregory? How come this cowardly scoundrel had the guts to continue the trip alone while all the Saviors felt they had to stop and plan their next move?

Gregory is a rogue element in the group of prisoners - one of these things is not like the other - and that thing is Gregory. The Saviours left as a group (Gregory isn't one of them) and have a network of outposts. The 'good Saviour' (whose name I've ruddy well forgotten again after learning it last week) gave Rick the heads up on where they were most likely to go to regroup (the dive bar).

Gregory, on the other hand, it's anyone's guess where he'd go. Gregory was also of little importance in the moment - the priority was getting the Saviours, and they had solid intel (that was proven accurate) that they went to the dive bar.


For some strange reason, Dwight became too comfortable at the Sanctuary, specially fully knowing that Laura could still be alive and somehow find her way back and spill the beans about him. This dude should not have gone back to the Sanctuary. He had a good chance of "getting lost" again during the Hilltop battle.

1) He's putting up a front - he needs to appear to be comfy so he doesn't blow his cover. If he acted all nervous and twitchy folks would know something was up.
2) If he'd "gotten lost" his cover would definitely be blown.


I know that Eugene is coming across as a "traitor" nowadays, but can his former companions really fully blame this guy as liberally as they do? I mean, if he does not do what Negan tells him, he is dead. There is no way around this. It's not like he really had much of any other choice. I am not trying to excuse his recent a-hole attitude, but Team Rick should really be a bit more understanding of this guy's predicament. They basically abandoned him there at the Sanctuary to his uncertain fate, yet he managed to successfully use his knowledge to survive, and now they want to place the full blame on him for that? Maybe Team Rick could at least have attempted a rescue mission, something to try to get Eugene out of there, but nothing. They just seemingly forgot about this dude and did not even move a finger to try to help him. Now they are acting all outraged that he seems fully integrated with the Saviors. Not very surprising that he is, really. Again, it's not like he had much of any other choice.

1) Eugene has survived, but he's also survived selfishly, and his survival has at times flown in the face of helping Team Rick. He's had an opportunity of two to help - in one episode he had two or more chances, but with mixed results. He was actively trying to lure the walkers away from The Sanctuary (Dwight stopped him, and Eugene was persisting despite knowing that Dwight was on Team Rick's side), but then he did help the Doc get Gabriel out (fat lot of good that did in the end, eh?).
2) I do agree that it was frustrating that they kind of left Eugene out there swinging in the wind.
3) It was good to see the softer side of Eugene again - and the ingenius side (albeit, again, to save his own skin) with the vomit distraction - but if he wants to live much longer he's gonna have to pull something magical out of his arse. Even if Team Rick don't kill him, he's going to be sitting very uncomfortably for a very long time and will have to do a huge amount to make up for it. If Team Rick get wind that Eugene came up with the tainted arrows idea (well, mostly - Negan put the practical touches on it), then he'll be in big trouble. A whole lot of Hilltoppers died because of that.

[Moon Knight]

F*ck Eugene.

[beat_truck]

F*ck Eugene.

I wasn't sure before, but after seeing this episode, my thought as well. I was yelling at the TV for Rosita to shoot him.

[JDP]

Simon has previous on leaving certain people alive - as we learned in this episode, he was the one who ordered the selective massacre at Oceanside (killing all the males). The pattern of behaviour exists.

Simon was now in "kill everybody and then some!" mode. This mistake of allowing Jadis to escape, a person who could potentially spill the beans about what Simon did there, was something that he would not be likely to make. His very own life was at stake here as well.


Gregory is a rogue element in the group of prisoners - one of these things is not like the other - and that thing is Gregory. The Saviours left as a group (Gregory isn't one of them) and have a network of outposts. The 'good Saviour' (whose name I've ruddy well forgotten again after learning it last week) gave Rick the heads up on where they were most likely to go to regroup (the dive bar).

Gregory, on the other hand, it's anyone's guess where he'd go. Gregory was also of little importance in the moment - the priority was getting the Saviours, and they had solid intel (that was proven accurate) that they went to the dive bar.

But he is a cowardly weasel who switches sides as often as people change socks. Notice that his intention now was to help the Saviors again (just because it suited him), that's why he went to the Sanctuary. It would make perfect sense for him to stick with the escaping Saviors now, if for no other reason than his own security (the only thing he really cares about.) Yet he was able to pull off what none of the tough & armed Savior soldiers was able to: get back to the Sanctuary safe & sound.


1) He's putting up a front - he needs to appear to be comfy so he doesn't blow his cover. If he acted all nervous and twitchy folks would know something was up.
2) If he'd "gotten lost" his cover would definitely be blown.

Putting up the front was smart, but the problem is that it wasn't just a "front", this guy was starting to feel like everything was back to how it was before. He let his guard down. He was well aware that Laura could have survived and was trying to make her way back to the Sanctuary. Front or no front, he should not have spent so much time at that place. It was a potential ticking time-bomb for him. If Laura showed up, he knows it was the end for him. Too much of a gamble. After "getting lost" for a second time (and he had a good chance of pulling this off at the Hilltop battle), he obviously should not have come back to the Sanctuary ever again. The whole thing is just too dangerous without knowing Laura's fate for sure. What he was doing is something that could be safely done if he was 100% sure Laura had not survived. Then no one could spill the beans about him being the traitor.


1) Eugene has survived, but he's also survived selfishly, and his survival has at times flown in the face of helping Team Rick. He's had an opportunity of two to help - in one episode he had two or more chances, but with mixed results. He was actively trying to lure the walkers away from The Sanctuary (Dwight stopped him, and Eugene was persisting despite knowing that Dwight was on Team Rick's side),

But that was easy for Dwight to do, his life was not on the line, Eugene's was! If Eugene did not find a prompt solution to the problem, Negan made it clear to him that he would be the first one to be killed. Eugene is really more of a victim of circumstances than a truly "bad" guy. Yes, he is kind of a weasel, but he is really more pushed into being so out of necessity to survive than this being his true character, whereas Gregory is a total a-hole and a full-blown weasel out of his own true character (even when his life was not really at stake he was already like that.)


but then he did help the Doc get Gabriel out (fat lot of good that did in the end, eh?).

That wasn't his fault, though. The fact is that he did help Gabriel, and in the process was putting his own safety on the line. Which again supports the fact that he is not a 100% a-hole. If he can pull it off with a chance of not getting caught, he will help his former companions.


3) It was good to see the softer side of Eugene again - and the ingenius side (albeit, again, to save his own skin) with the vomit distraction - but if he wants to live much longer he's gonna have to pull something magical out of his arse. Even if Team Rick don't kill him, he's going to be sitting very uncomfortably for a very long time and will have to do a huge amount to make up for it. If Team Rick get wind that Eugene came up with the tainted arrows idea (well, mostly - Negan put the practical touches on it), then he'll be in big trouble. A whole lot of Hilltoppers died because of that.

Notice that here again Eugene's intentions were not quite the same as Negan's. Eugene's idea was to use an ancient & medieval tactic of scaring the pants off of the enemy into submission by catapulting deceased rotting/infected bodies/carcasses over the walls of a city/castle. He was only suggesting the threat of infection so that the enemy would surrender. It was Negan who twisted Eugene's suggestion of a scare tactic into a more devious plan to actually purposefully infect some people.

[Moon Knight]

Straight up, both Rosita and Daryl were clowns for letting Eugene escape so easily. Daryl must have forgotten how to track people. :D

And, Rosita, baby, that was embarrassing. Lol.

[MinionZombie]

Simon was now in "kill everybody and then some!" mode. This mistake of allowing Jadis to escape, a person who could potentially spill the beans about what Simon did there, was something that he would not be likely to make. His very own life was at stake here as well.

The handling of the explanation of how Jadis got away was clumsy - from a pure production standpoint - in other words the blocking and editing of the scenes across two different episodes. However, clumsy blocking/editing aside, there was a clear explanation as to why Jadis survived - and in-turn it shows that Simon never intended to leave Jadis alive.

I'd also imagine that Simon intended to kill Jadis last after making her suffer by watching all her people get slaughtered.


But he is a cowardly weasel who switches sides as often as people change socks. Notice that his intention now was to help the Saviors again (just because it suited him), that's why he went to the Sanctuary. It would make perfect sense for him to stick with the escaping Saviors now, if for no other reason than his own security (the only thing he really cares about.) Yet he was able to pull off what none of the tough & armed Savior soldiers was able to: get back to the Sanctuary safe & sound.

The Saviours holed up in a static location that the 'good Saviour' knew about and had Rick and Morgan hot on their heels with murder on their minds, and they had the bum luck of having wounded friends in their midst to take care of.

Gregory, on the other hand, nobody particularly knew where he was going, but more key is that nobody really gave a shit. Gregory wasn't an imminent threat. Gregory didn't have two capable survivalists on his heels and he went directly to the Sanctuary without stopping.

Simples.


Putting up the front was smart, but the problem is that it wasn't just a "front", this guy was starting to feel like everything was back to how it was before. He let his guard down. He was well aware that Laura could have survived and was trying to make her way back to the Sanctuary. Front or no front, he should not have spent so much time at that place. It was a potential ticking time-bomb for him. If Laura showed up, he knows it was the end for him. Too much of a gamble. After "getting lost" for a second time (and he had a good chance of pulling this off at the Hilltop battle), he obviously should not have come back to the Sanctuary ever again. The whole thing is just too dangerous without knowing Laura's fate for sure. What he was doing is something that could be safely done if he was 100% sure Laura had not survived. Then no one could spill the beans about him being the traitor.

Again, Dwight was only spending as much time with the Saviours as he did to maintain his cover. Events are moving fast right now, and don't forget that weeks for us is still only hours for the folks on the show (I do hope that in Season 9 the new showrunner, Angela Kang, switches over to better parity of time passing in-show versus viewer's experience watching the show - enough of this 'weeks for us, hours for them' stuff). Dwight didn't want to hang around, but he was always in a position where he had to play along - a clear opportunity to scarper never truly presented itself. And no, I don't agree that he could have offed Simon/got away during the Hilltop assault, so don't even bother bringing it up. :D


Notice that here again Eugene's intentions were not quite the same as Negan's. Eugene's idea was to use an ancient & medieval tactic of scaring the pants off of the enemy into submission by catapulting deceased rotting/infected bodies/carcasses over the walls of a city/castle. He was only suggesting the threat of infection so that the enemy would surrender. It was Negan who twisted Eugene's suggestion of a scare tactic into a more devious plan to actually purposefully infect some people.

Yes, as I said, Eugene isn't entirely responsible - it was Negan who weaponised Eugene's idea - but if it hadn't have been for Eugene coming up with the idea (albeit to save his own skin) then those who died at Hilltop would have still been alive. So Eugene is certainly and absolutely partly responsible for all those deaths.


Straight up, both Rosita and Daryl were clowns for letting Eugene escape so easily. Daryl must have forgotten how to track people. :D

There were ashy footprints leading through and away from the burned bodies, Daryl fell for Eugene's trick.

[JDP]

The handling of the explanation of how Jadis got away was clumsy - from a pure production standpoint - in other words the blocking and editing of the scenes across two different episodes. However, clumsy blocking/editing aside, there was a clear explanation as to why Jadis survived - and in-turn it shows that Simon never intended to leave Jadis alive.

I'd also imagine that Simon intended to kill Jadis last after making her suffer by watching all her people get slaughtered.

The issue now is not why did Simon allow Jadis to live (we now got confirmation that that was not his intention at all), but how could Jadis get away from him and the "firing squad" massacring her people right in front of her??? Even if Simon wanted to kill her last, he would not likely have allowed her to just run away. It is not safe or practical. For example: how does Simon know if there is another entrance/exit at the Dump? Or a hiding place? Or a secret stash of weapons? Letting Jadis out of his sight would be a big mistake, as she could either escape, hide or get a weapon and start fighting back.


The Saviours holed up in a static location that the 'good Saviour' knew about and had Rick and Morgan hot on their heels with murder on their minds, and they had the bum luck of having wounded friends in their midst to take care of.

Gregory, on the other hand, nobody particularly knew where he was going, but more key is that nobody really gave a shit. Gregory wasn't an imminent threat. Gregory didn't have two capable survivalists on his heels and he went directly to the Sanctuary without stopping.

Simples.

Not so "simples". Let me say it again: the guy is a spineless weasel. We know that he is scared shitless of this new dangerous, lawless, zombie-infested world. He is a manipulator and needs other people to survive and thrive (typical politician, as Negan characterized him.) We also know that his intention now was to get to the Sanctuary and try to help the Saviors again. So it makes perfect sense for such a character to have joined the escaping Saviors on their way back to the Sanctuary, not try to make it there on his own.


Again, Dwight was only spending as much time with the Saviours as he did to maintain his cover. Events are moving fast right now, and don't forget that weeks for us is still only hours for the folks on the show (I do hope that in Season 9 the new showrunner, Angela Kang, switches over to better parity of time passing in-show versus viewer's experience watching the show - enough of this 'weeks for us, hours for them' stuff). Dwight didn't want to hang around, but he was always in a position where he had to play along - a clear opportunity to scarper never truly presented itself.

It certainly doesn't look like just a few hours have passed since Dwight has been hanging at the Sanctuary again. Without knowing for sure what happened to Laura, the less time he spends there, the better.


And no, I don't agree that he could have offed Simon/got away during the Hilltop assault, so don't even bother bringing it up. :D

He could so easily have done both when they were sneaking behind the Hilltop's lines, or even earlier, when they went to look for Negan.


Yes, as I said, Eugene isn't entirely responsible - it was Negan who weaponised Eugene's idea - but if it hadn't have been for Eugene coming up with the idea (albeit to save his own skin) then those who died at Hilltop would have still been alive. So Eugene is certainly and absolutely partly responsible for all those deaths.

We must have very different ideas of what "responsibility" and "justice" are, because to me it is very obvious that you cannot be held accountable for some wacko's misuse of your ideas. Eugene did not suggest at any moment that anyone should really be actually infected with zombie blood/gore, only the threat of potential infection in order to scare them into surrendering. The actual purposeful infecting of some people to achieve the same goal was wholly Negan's devious twist on that idea. That's what actually got some people killed. The responsibility for that is hanging over Negan's head, not Eugene's.

[MinionZombie]

Not so "simples". Let me say it again: the guy is a spineless weasel. We know that he is scared shitless of this new dangerous, lawless, zombie-infested world. He is a manipulator and needs other people to survive and thrive (typical politician, as Negan characterized him.) We also know that his intention now was to get to the Sanctuary and try to help the Saviors again. So it makes perfect sense for such a character to have joined the escaping Saviors on their way back to the Sanctuary, not try to make it there on his own.

Yes, it is simples. :D

Gregory was not the priority in the moment - a man who's a talker, but shite at action (he's never killed a walker, for example). The escaped Saviours were the priority (hardened survivalists with weapons training, combat experience, and who are clear enemy soldiers - PLUS had some value attached to them - while Simon didn't give a shit about Saviour prisoners, Negan likely would ... Rick killed them all, but that was better than letting them get away and potentially tell Negan that the Hilltop no longer have prisoners). It's obvious why they went after the escaped Saviours.


It certainly doesn't look like just a few hours have passed since Dwight has been hanging at the Sanctuary again. Without knowing for sure what happened to Laura, the less time he spends there, the better.

The entirety of season 8 has so far taken place over a matter of days (a week, tops).


We must have very different ideas of what "responsibility" and "justice" are, because to me it is very obvious that you cannot be held accountable for some wacko's misuse of your ideas. Eugene did not suggest at any moment that anyone should really be actually infected with zombie blood/gore, only the threat of potential infection in order to scare them into surrendering. The actual purposeful infecting of some people to achieve the same goal was wholly Negan's devious twist on that idea. That's what actually got some people killed. The responsibility for that is hanging over Negan's head, not Eugene's.

While Eugene might have diminished responsibility in terms of laws (of the old world), his 'gross them out' idea directly led to Negan's weaponising of the idea. While Eugene isn't wholly responsible, he is part-responsible - at the very least on a moral level. Plain as day. Saving his own skin has cost the lives of others. To be fair to him he is in extreme circumstances, but similarly Negan believes people are a resource and Eugene is too valuable to kill - I'd wager some of Negan's threats to Eugene were all bluster, perfect for manipulating a self-confessed coward. I'm not saying, and have never said, that Eugene is solely responsible - and have, on several occasions - pointed out that it was Negan who weaponised the idea ... but the idea came from Eugene in the first place (albeit under duress). I'm simply pointing out that Eugene has some responsibility for the deaths of innocents at Hilltop.

Simples. ;)

[JDP]

Yes, it is simples. :D

Gregory was not the priority in the moment - a man who's a talker, but shite at action (he's never killed a walker, for example). The escaped Saviours were the priority (hardened survivalists with weapons training, combat experience, and who are clear enemy soldiers - PLUS had some value attached to them - while Simon didn't give a shit about Saviour prisoners, Negan likely would ... Rick killed them all, but that was better than letting them get away and potentially tell Negan that the Hilltop no longer have prisoners). It's obvious why they went after the escaped Saviours.

My point is not that Rick & company should have gone to intercept Gregory, but that a coward like Gregory, who relies on others for his own survival, should most likely have stuck around with the escaping Saviors. All the more since he had every intention of going back to the Sanctuary to strike a new deal with Simon. It doesn't seem like his cowardly character to attempt to make a potentially dangerous journey on foot all on his own, with no help from anyone. He had a common goal with the escaping Saviors: get back to the Sanctuary. Like the sneaky opportunistic manipulator that he is, it would make perfect sense for him to stick with these guys and take full advantage of the situation for his own benefit.


The entirety of season 8 has so far taken place over a matter of days (a week, tops).

More than enough time for Dwight to have discreetly gotten the hell out of there before Laura might show up.


While Eugene might have diminished responsibility in terms of laws (of the old world), his 'gross them out' idea directly led to Negan's weaponising of the idea. While Eugene isn't wholly responsible, he is part-responsible - at the very least on a moral level. Plain as day. Saving his own skin has cost the lives of others. To be fair to him he is in extreme circumstances, but similarly Negan believes people are a resource and Eugene is too valuable to kill - I'd wager some of Negan's threats to Eugene were all bluster, perfect for manipulating a self-confessed coward. I'm not saying, and have never said, that Eugene is solely responsible - and have, on several occasions - pointed out that it was Negan who weaponised the idea ... but the idea came from Eugene in the first place (albeit under duress). I'm simply pointing out that Eugene has some responsibility for the deaths of innocents at Hilltop.

Simples. ;)

If we hold people partly responsible on such loose grounds, then the guy who invented the car is partly responsible for all the deaths this vehicle has caused at the hands of terrorists or crazy people who have "weaponized" his invention, even though it was never his intention that anyone should have been purposefully killed by it. The only thing that Eugene can be blamed for regarding this infection thing is for trying to scare the hell out of the Hilltop, but not for actually purposefully killing anyone.

[MinionZombie]

My point is not that Rick & company should have gone to intercept Gregory, but that a coward like Gregory, who relies on others for his own survival, should most likely have stuck around with the escaping Saviors. All the more since he had every intention of going back to the Sanctuary to strike a new deal with Simon. It doesn't seem like his cowardly character to attempt to make a potentially dangerous journey on foot all on his own, with no help from anyone. He had a common goal with the escaping Saviors: get back to the Sanctuary. Like the sneaky opportunistic manipulator that he is, it would make perfect sense for him to stick with these guys and take full advantage of the situation for his own benefit.

Well, we don't know what happened in the chaos - which was also at night, IIRC - the Saviours likely took off and Gregory lost track of them, but being that he knew those prisoners were persona non grata with the Hilltoppers and Team Rick it was wiser for him to steer clear of them entirely. That way he remains apart from them. It would have been a foolish move, anyway - if he'd gone with them then he would have been at the dive bar and Rick and Morgan would have likely killed him as a full blown traitor.


More than enough time for Dwight to have discreetly gotten the hell out of there before Laura might show up.

Still don't agree, because where's he gonna go? Hindsight's a wonderful thing and there's a boatload of 'ifs and buts' in scenarios like this, but that's completely different to being in the moment as the ever-changing events swarm you from all directions and decisions have to be made in split-seconds.

He wants Negan dead so he has to be part of the fight. He can't just run off on his own. It'd be better for him in the immediate term if he did, but he's not interested in mere survival, he wants Negan taken down for personal reasons - so therefore he has to remain in the area.

He rejoined the Saviours a few episodes back only because it was to benefit Team Rick and lead the handful of Saviours away from the fleeing Alexandrians as they made their journey to Hilltop. Once back in with the Saviours it was either a case of him being surrounded, all eyes swirling about him, or he was caught up in actions and meetings - and leaving the Sanctuary of your own volition isn't an easy task due to various locked doors and guards etc.

But, let's not forget, that Dwight did attempt to split apart - remember when he was getting on his bike but Simon insisted he hop on board the truck with him (the episode where Rick smashed into Negan's car - and then Simon used the disappearance of Negan to begin his attempted coup?)


If we hold people partly responsible on such loose grounds, then the guy who invented the car is partly responsible for all the deaths this vehicle has caused at the hands of terrorists or crazy people who have "weaponized" his invention, even though it was never his intention that anyone should have been purposefully killed by it. The only thing that Eugene can be blamed for regarding this infection thing is for trying to scare the hell out of the Hilltop, but not for actually purposefully killing anyone.

Completely different context. The inventor of the car wasn't doing so under duress, nor was he actively involved in a war, nor had he taken actions to save his own skin that negatively affected his former community.

[JDP]

Well, we don't know what happened in the chaos - which was also at night, IIRC - the Saviours likely took off and Gregory lost track of them, but being that he knew those prisoners were persona non grata with the Hilltoppers and Team Rick it was wiser for him to steer clear of them entirely. That way he remains apart from them. It would have been a foolish move, anyway - if he'd gone with them then he would have been at the dive bar and Rick and Morgan would have likely killed him as a full blown traitor.

But Gregory did not know that was going to happen. Considering the nature of his character, the most logical choice for him would have been to use the escaping Saviors as his "escort" to the Sanctuary, where he was planning to go to anyway.



Still don't agree, because where's he gonna go? Hindsight's a wonderful thing and there's a boatload of 'ifs and buts' in scenarios like this, but that's completely different to being in the moment as the ever-changing events swarm you from all directions and decisions have to be made in split-seconds.

He wants Negan dead so he has to be part of the fight. He can't just run off on his own. It'd be better for him in the immediate term if he did, but he's not interested in mere survival, he wants Negan taken down for personal reasons - so therefore he has to remain in the area.

He rejoined the Saviours a few episodes back only because it was to benefit Team Rick and lead the handful of Saviours away from the fleeing Alexandrians as they made their journey to Hilltop. Once back in with the Saviours it was either a case of him being surrounded, all eyes swirling about him, or he was caught up in actions and meetings - and leaving the Sanctuary of your own volition isn't an easy task due to various locked doors and guards etc.

But, let's not forget, that Dwight did attempt to split apart - remember when he was getting on his bike but Simon insisted he hop on board the truck with him (the episode where Rick smashed into Negan's car - and then Simon used the disappearance of Negan to begin his attempted coup?)

But he did have a couple of opportunities to get "lost" after Simon's interruption. Regarding what should Dwight do after he got "lost" again: how about looking for Laura and getting rid of that loose end? Seems like the best thing to do. Laura's probable survival became a thorn in Dwight's side.


Completely different context. The inventor of the car wasn't doing so under duress, nor was he actively involved in a war, nor had he taken actions to save his own skin that negatively affected his former community.

And the inventor of the car was also not left stranded and forgotten by his friends in a hostile place under threats of "comply or die".

[MinionZombie]

But Gregory did not know that was going to happen. Considering the nature of his character, the most logical choice for him would have been to use the escaping Saviors as his "escort" to the Sanctuary, where he was planning to go to anyway.

But Gregory knows they're prisoners of war and persona(s) non grata. Trying to tag along with them would be just as dangerous as not tagging along with them, and certainly, potentially more dangerous before of who those POWs are. Gregory's a politician through-and-through figuring out all the angles and the best way to slime his way through a tight spot. What he chose was the best option.


But he did have a couple of opportunities to get "lost" after Simon's interruption. Regarding what should Dwight do after he got "lost" again: how about looking for Laura and getting rid of that loose end? Seems like the best thing to do. Laura's probable survival became a thorn in Dwight's side.

The best time to go after Laura would have been as immediately as possible - but he wasn't able - trying to go after her would be pointless. She could be anywhere out there in multiple square miles of hostile territory - not a wise use of Dwight's time and it puts him at just as much risk as biding his time in familiar (albeit potentially hostile) Sanctuary territory.


And the inventor of the car was also not left stranded and forgotten by his friends in a hostile place under threats of "comply or die".

Aye, so the comparison was pointless, wasn't it? :D

[JDP]

But Gregory knows they're prisoners of war and persona(s) non grata. Trying to tag along with them would be just as dangerous as not tagging along with them, and certainly, potentially more dangerous before of who those POWs are. Gregory's a politician through-and-through figuring out all the angles and the best way to slime his way through a tight spot. What he chose was the best option.

For a cowardly sneaky fellow like him? No way! His best bet was sticking with others for his own protection, not try to venture out there in that "jungle" on his own.


The best time to go after Laura would have been as immediately as possible - but he wasn't able - trying to go after her would be pointless. She could be anywhere out there in multiple square miles of hostile territory - not a wise use of Dwight's time and it puts him at just as much risk as biding his time in familiar (albeit potentially hostile) Sanctuary territory.

He knows that if Laura is alive she will try to make it back to the Sanctuary. That narrows down the search area considerably. Once Laura is out of the picture, no one will spill the beans about him being the mole.


Aye, so the comparison was pointless, wasn't it? :D

No, it was sarcasm. The comparison stands. Eugene cannot be held accountable for what some wacko does with his ideas.

[shootemindehead]

Eugene cannot be held accountable for what some wacko does with his ideas.

Yes he fucking can, especially when those ideas are being used to kill the people who risked their lives to save his. You don't get to simply Pontius pilate your way out of shitty decisions and claim no foul.

- - - Updated - - -


There were ashy footprints leading through and away from the burned bodies, Daryl fell for Eugene's trick.

Yeh, but I think the world and his wife knew where the fat fuck was.

That scene may have played out better if Daryl stayed behind and dug through the ashes and Rosie ran off a few metres to look for him, but still couldn't find him. There are numerous places Eugene could have disappeared to.

As it is people are simply going "check the ashes...check the ashes...he's in the ashes...oh FFS :rolleyes: "

[JDP]

Yes he fucking can, especially when those ideas are being used to kill the people who risked their lives to save his. You don't get to simply Pontius pilate your way out of shitty decisions and claim no foul.

Then you would have to condemn everyone whose ideas have been twisted by others into something different than originally intended. It's not their fault some other people did that with them. In this particular case, Eugene never said that someone should be actually purposefully infected. That was Negan doing his insane things.

[MinionZombie]

No, it was sarcasm. The comparison stands. Eugene cannot be held accountable for what some wacko does with his ideas.

You seem to think I'm laying all accountability at Eugene's feet - I'm not, and haven't - what I've been saying is that he is partly responsible.

Had Eugene never come up with the idea for grossing out the Hilltop then Negan wouldn't have had his twisted idea (the man's got previous for twisting ideas to messed up ends). Diminished responsibility on Eugene's part, but he still had a clear hand in a chain of events that led to the deaths of many innocents.

TWD has used this theme throughout, most notably in the Morgan/Carol clash of ideologies. Everything has consequences, any choice - including making no choice - and you play your part in a catalogue of events. Eugene had to say something in the moment to save his own skin, understandably so, and he chose to come up with the 'use the walker guts' line of possibilities - advising a known nutjob who weaponised a baseball bat in grand fashion and gleefully uses it.

Eugene is partly responsible.


That scene may have played out better if Daryl stayed behind and dug through the ashes and Rosie ran off a few metres to look for him, but still couldn't find him. There are numerous places Eugene could have disappeared to.

As it is people are simply going "check the ashes...check the ashes...he's in the ashes...oh FFS :rolleyes: "

Some different blocking to the scene would have helped. For me it was more the amount of time it'd take to hide yourself under those ashes (he seemed to be under some kind of sheet). It would have played smoother if Daryl and Rosita headed off in one direction, but then circled back to the entranceway that led to the ash piles. Then you could have also, as you suggest, have Rosita glance at the ash piles and kick one of them - but Daryl tears off after the fake tracks that Eugene laid down and Rosita follows suit - then have Eugene pop up a step or two away from where Rosita was kicking about. Just very slight tweaks in the blocking, but in the heat of the moment on-location you might not have time to get all these nuances down.

[shootemindehead]

Then you would have to condemn everyone whose ideas have been twisted by others into something different than originally intended. It's not their fault some other people did that with them. In this particular case, Eugene never said that someone should be actually purposefully infected. That was Negan doing his insane things.

Making bullets or poisioned melee weaponry to kill people is what the intention is.

Eugene damn well knows this and cannot wash his hands of it. He condemns himself.

[MinionZombie]

Making bullets or poisioned melee weaponry to kill people is what the intention is.

Eugene damn well knows this and cannot wash his hands of it. He condemns himself.

Aye! More than the 'chemical warfare', Eugene's actively manufacturing bullets - yes, under duress initially - but now he's very deliberate in his actions having been driven there partly by his own side (understandably) considering him a turncoat and partly by his own (generally understandable) weakness ... basically, giving into the pressures he's under.

So he's partly responsible for the Hilltoppers dying from infected arrows, and he's directly responsible for anyone who dies as a result of those bullets he's manufacturing.

Now, that would have always been the case if he was making them for Team Rick, but the case is very different now - he's making them for the enemy to be used against his former comrades (who are obviously quite pissed off about everything that Eugene has done to help the Saviours to save his own skin). To be fair, Eugene's personal fortitude is nothing like Daryl who refused to give in to better himself - he opted to remain imprisoned and in the "A" clothes doing slave work and shit jobs eating pet food sarnies.

[Moon Knight]

It’s obvious Eugene is gonna make faulty bullets. That’s why they had Gabriel bring up the idea and Eugene verbally abused by Rosita so Eugene can really think about what he’s doing and what he can be doing.

Eugene put Gabriel back on the line and told him to follow his lead. Rosita’s verbiage was carefully written to finally get through to Eugene. Honestly, at this point, he’s done too much harm. I actually really dislike the character. We shall see.

[shootemindehead]

Mmmm....I dunno Moonie. I was thinking that might be the angle they were going for. But, after Rosie's threat, I think he may go full "Saviour".

I have a thunderous hated for the gobshite (really well played by Josh McDemmit :D ), even if I understand the predicament that the character is in. Also, I think the character is autistic and incapable of rationalising any situation truly. So, in that respect I understand a certain diminished responsibility. However, he most definitely is intelligent and compos mentis enough to understand the ramifications of proffering your ideas to psychos like Negan. He is also a coward and a (murderous) traitor to the folk that risked their lives (and died) to help him and if friendship and loyalty to that friendship are high qualities in human beings, cowardice and betrayal are the corresponding low points.

[JDP]

Making bullets or poisioned melee weaponry to kill people is what the intention is.

Eugene damn well knows this and cannot wash his hands of it. He condemns himself.

The poisoned melee weapons was actually Negan's devious twist on Eugene's proposition. Eugene did not actually propose this. He was proposing a zombie apocalypse version of an old scare tactic to make the enemy surrender: launching zombie body parts over the Hilltop's walls. He never said anything about purposefully infecting some people for sure and then letting them turn into zombies.

Making bullets was the initial purpose of bringing Eugene to the Sanctuary. And as Eugene pointed out, he in fact did this to save Rosita's life. Negan would likely have killed her if Eugene had not voluntarily stepped forward and confessed that he was the real "bullet-maker". So Eugene's situation is really a complex one. He got into this mess while he was in fact trying to help his friends. Then he mysteriously got "forgotten" by them and left stranded at the Sanctuary to his uncertain fate (Rick & company did not move a finger to try to help Eugene get out of there.) In order to survive, Eugene simply "adapted" to this new situation by integrating into the Savior ranks. He did not really have much of any other choice than to become one of the "bad guys".

[MinionZombie]

It’s obvious Eugene is gonna make faulty bullets. That’s why they had Gabriel bring up the idea and Eugene verbally abused by Rosita so Eugene can really think about what he’s doing and what he can be doing.

Hopefully he does! Well, it's either a case of he does or he doesn't. You're right in that him berating Gabriel was there for a reason.

However, I believe he tests a batch of his bullets in the finale - so either he's a bastard traitor or he's made a 'good batch' or he's muddled in a bunch of shite rounds to randomly screw over Saviours as they fire.

[Moon Knight]

The way he was instructing Gabriel is what made me believe he is about to take Gabriel’s original plan and run with it ultimately. The first scene in this episode between the two was put there for a reason. His last line was also channeling what Rosita had yelled at him.

[JDP]

There was a scene in one of the previews for the next episode where Eugene seems to be threatening Gabriel with a gun. He might indeed have gone "full bad" (as a result of the previous violent encounter with his former friends.)