TWD 9x01 "A New Beginning" episode discussion... **SPOILERS**

[MinionZombie]

Please keep all talk of episode 9x01 "A New Beginning" specifically inside this thread.

If you have a theory for a following episode, please use the "spoiler tags" (visit the HPOTD FAQ to find out how to use them if you don't already know).

Similarly, if you're going to discuss plot points from the comic book, please use "spoiler tags" - not everyone is up-to-date on them, and some people don't read them at all.

Enjoy!

Directed by: Greg Nicotero
Written by: Angela Kang

So ... the final episodes of Rick Grimes begins. :( However, there's much to look forward to with an 18 month time jump and a trip to a zombie ravaged city.

I read an article yesterday that said that Andrew Lincoln is going to shadow one of the directors with the intention of coming back to TWD behind the camera to direct an episode. Indeed, episode 9x07 is directed by Michael Cudlitz (Abraham). :) Also of note in the article I mentioned was that Lincoln had a discussion with Gimple saying that 8 seasons felt about right, but he decided late in-the-game that he wasn't quite ready to go yet and wanted to do it properly ... now, the cynically-minded might still be prone to feel that part of the decision was instigated by the dodgy treatment of Riggs with the death of Carl (something which, with the leaving of Rick Grimes this season, now feels like a really stupid idea as having Carl take over the throne, as it were, would have been perfect for the overall story).

Anyway ... let's see what comes, eh?

[facestabber]

Yea minion at the end of the day I just can't stomach TWD without Rick. I will watch as long as I can but it's just gutting to know Rick story is ending. And like you I would have been more understanding if Carl was kept alive as the Grimes story would continue. And Shane as dad or not I'm not concerned with Judith as a Grimes story. Always been Rick 1st, then Carl. The fact that Lincoln voiced his eventual exit during season 4 I will never understand the decision to kill Carl. Moronic. This Sunday will be a first for me. Due to probable civil unrest in Chicago I will not be able to watch a season premiere live.

[Moon Knight]

Chandler couldn’t carry the show. Simple as that.

I’m a way, I’m very curious on how the show moves forward without Rick. I’m just glad Lincoln gave us nine years. Could have been worse. If the show can actually change for the better, cause let’s be honest, it was really starting to decline in quality and that was with Rick, then I’ll be happy. If not, then it was a pretty damn good run.

Either way, very excited for the next chapter.

[facestabber]

Chandler couldn’t carry the show. Simple as that.

I’m a way, I’m very curious on how the show moves forward without Rick. I’m just glad Lincoln gave us nine years. Could have been worse. If the show can actually change for the better, cause let’s be honest, it was really starting to decline in quality and that was with Rick, then I’ll be happy. If not, then it was a pretty damn good run.

Either way, very excited for the next chapter.

I completely agree Riggs couldnt carry the show. Lincoln is by far the most talented actor on the show. Show has been on a decline since season 5 but it certainly wasnt the acting of Lincoln(I know you know that moon). Carl needed to be around though. I wouldnt expect him to lead the current group. How could a teenager be expected to lead world class survivors like Daryl and Michonne hahaha. TWD should have closed shop with Lincolns exit, thrown the money at Fear and hoped for the best. Rick was the people champ. The entire premise of the show has been Rick Grimes guiding and growing his son through the ZA. And now we are all robbed of the payoff this journey has been leading up to since 10/31/10.

[Moon Knight]

I completely agree Riggs couldnt carry the show. Lincoln is by far the most talented actor on the show. Show has been on a decline since season 5 but it certainly wasnt the acting of Lincoln(I know you know that moon). Carl needed to be around though. I wouldnt expect him to lead the current group. How could a teenager be expected to lead world class survivors like Daryl and Michonne hahaha. TWD should have closed shop with Lincolns exit, thrown the money at Fear and hoped for the best. Rick was the people champ. The entire premise of the show has been Rick Grimes guiding and growing his son through the ZA. And now we are all robbed of the payoff this journey has been leading up to since 10/31/10.

I can agree.

I also am not a fan of comic Carl and actually preferred the Riggs version. Riggs won me over during season 4.

Edit: For anyone who has AMC Premier you can actually watch the premier the night before. I know Facestabber had mentioned he couldn’t watch it Sunday night.

[MinionZombie]

Well, naturally Riggs doesn't have the same acting chops as Lincoln, because Lincoln has a good couple of decades experience on Riggs, plus his innate gift for acting. However, Riggs was marching a very good path as the show went on, developing his craft, and while Carl couldn't have replaced Rick (I agree, you'd need other leaders to jointly take Rick Grimes' place), it would have been really interesting to see that transition of the Alexandria throne - we got a snifter of it in the middle of season 8 during the bombing of Alexandria, so we've been robbed of fascinating storylines centering around Carl - a young man inherits the throne, but he's not quite ready to shoulder all the responsibility and emotional toll of it, plus we could have seen more development of a Negan/Carl relationship with Carl fatherless and finding some kind of adult male kinship in a strange way in the form of an imprisoned Negan (who, himself, could be changing due to his incarceration). We could have also seen Carl develop more of a relationship with Edith.

It's interesting, really, because the show does some stuff better and the comics does other things better.

Moon - I like the optimism. If Kang & Co can pull off losing Rick then I'll be relieved (there are, after all, a whole host of superb characters - but finding a new and worthy lead amidst them is the big challenge). TWD has the scale, too, and I'm fascinated to see the post-AOW society develop. I was always irked by those who said that AOW was 'more of the same', when it clearly wasn't. It lays foundations for everything to come ... now, what's to come on the TV show will be different to what came after in the comics in some ways.

I circle back to TV networks needing to think more sustainably about their shows - a combination of shorter seasons (10 episodes is plenty, there's so much choice out there, and a leaner order with no filler works better for audiences as well as the cast & crew) with a more concise overview of the entire show's potential span. They also need to not drain all the juice out of it, and in the instance of TWD I feel that FearTWD has drained some of the juice from TWD. Behind-the-scenes staff getting stretched thinner, for example, but I feel that Fear has contributed towards 'too much zombie stuff on AMC', sapping a bit of the anticipation build up that we had in previous seasons. Now, the viewing figures of TWD and Fear are decidedly different, but even still I think it has something of a negative effect. You've got 32 episodes of zombie shows - plus another 32 episodes of Talking Dead - every year. It's too much.

These networks need to think about the work/life balance of their cast & crew, as well. Six fewer episodes per season would give everyone more time to refill their creative juices, spend time with their families, as well as pursue other creative endeavours and come back to their main job refreshed and fulfilled. They need to think long term - what if cast members find success elsewhere or gain lucrative offers from bigger enterprises? What if your lead gets sick of being away from their family? It feels as if longer term conversations and thoughts about these shows don't get discussed enough, as if, in the end, the corporate dollar speaks louder than anything else and demands too much too fast too soon, which just ain't sustainable.

[Neil]

Well... It'g going to be interesting to see how the show "adapts"...

[Moon Knight]

I’m a horror fan and lover of the zombie genre. As long as there is a show with the quality of TWD on, I’m gonna give it a chance; even if it means getting something a little different than what I’m getting in the comic. Tbh, I really dislike the current comic storyline and hope they go in a totally different direction. Considering Rick will be gone as well as Maggie to an extent, now is the time to craft a different path.

MZ, I like your take on how Carl could have been used.

[MinionZombie]

I’m a horror fan and lover of the zombie genre. As long as there is a show with the quality of TWD on, I’m gonna give it a chance; even if it means getting something a little different than what I’m getting in the comic. Tbh, I really dislike the current comic storyline and hope they go in a totally different direction. Considering Rick will be gone as well as Maggie to an extent, now is the time to craft a different path.

MZ, I like your take on how Carl could have been used.

Yeah, despite the recent flaws that have burrowed their way into TWD, it's still a great show ... it's just so frustrating when you see certain mistakes or mis-steps happening (especially if AMC corporate execs have something to do with it) ... ... but TWD has a lot going for it from the top class acting talent, to the continued oversight and talent of horror icon Nicotero (as well as KNB), to the "TWD family" production on-set as well as a solid set of writers (albeit some better than others).

I keep up with the comics series via the trade paperbacks, so I'm a few issues behind (why they can't synch it up a bit better is beyond me - so you could be on-par every six months, rather than behing at best 3 or 4 issues behind and as many as 8 to 10 issues behind the curve). There's a lot of interesting stuff that I'm digging, but overall the post-AOW stories in the comics have been patchy. I dearly hope that the Whisperers storyline gets a lot of work, because it was a bit 'meh' in the comics for various reasons (few of them simple to solve ... it was more in the overall vibe of that plotline). But considering the big changes - the loss of Carl, Rick, and so it seems Maggie (in one way or another) - then I hope that Kang & Co have truly changed and adapted what was originally on the page and haven't just tacked bits and pieces of C/R/M's stories onto other players in the show. I hope the whole Whisperers plotline has had a ground-up re-working.

[facestabber]

Just heard Scott Wilson passed away. He made Hershel Greene such a great character. Glad I got to meet him and shake his hand.

[bassman]

Just heard Scott Wilson passed away. He made Hershel Greene such a great character. Glad I got to meet him and shake his hand.

I was sorry to hear about this. Like you, I met him here in Atlanta and he was a wonderful guy to talk to for a few minutes. I would’ve loved to have had more time to talk to him, he’s one of those people that you could just happily listen to for hours on end. He was probably my favorite TWD actor to meet, next to David Morrisey(Governor).

Outside of TWD, the man left us a great body of work too. Sorry to hear it was his time. RIP

[Moon Knight]

Scott Wilson was a very nice man. I’m glad I had the opportunity to meet him as well. RIP, sir.

[MinionZombie]

RIP Mr Wilson. :( I hope there'll be a nice tribute on Talking Dead.

[Moon Knight]

Quality work all around in the premier. The spider walker was gnarly. Gave me an Indiana Jones vibe.

They cut straight to the chase and killed Gregory in the premier. That’s whats up.

Daryl has already spoken more words than all of season 7 and 8 combined.

Very cool comic intro and I’m glad they didn’t change the music. Nice update.

[facestabber]

I enjoyed that. Lotta foundation layed. A lot of scenes with the A team together again was great. Really dug Michonne telling Rick to listen to Daryl. There's two people whose instincts I trust over the rest and that's Daryl and Michonne.

Carol seeking Daryls approval. And the old Pookey reference was a nice call back.

[MinionZombie]

Really enjoyed that. After the dwindling of Fear's 4th season, it was great to see the main show hit back and show us how it's done.

The wider theme of civilisation re-establishing itself was very present here, and staging the opening chunk in a museum was quite appropriate - the past world meets the new world, the tools of past finding new relevance and use, and the creation of "a more perfect union". You can see much tighter writing here than in Fear - e.g. Michonne sees the stuff about the Civil War and establishing a better America, then she's the one to propose a "charter", but then clash that with her as a mother and being the one to try and shield children's eyes from very adult things happening at night.

Speaking of - I was surprised Gregory got killed in this episode, but it's a good bold move. Maggie could see what was coming and didn't fart about. Although I imagine it'll have ramifications as not everyone voted for Maggie, and even those who did might not like this different side of her. That said, though, fuck Gregory! :lol: Although it's a bummer to see Xander Berkeley leave the show as his performance was so good.

Carol/Daryl and Carol/Ezekiel stuff was all very nice indeed. Interesting that Daryl has kind of been given Dwight's 'reluctant leader of Sanctuary' plotline, at least for the time being, but it makes sense.

As mentioned, the spider walker was a really good scene, very effective and creepy and had that icky sense of 'fun horror' about it.

Always nice to see a group of the big players working together with all their routines well established. Seeing things like the spray painted routes etc speaks to larger organisation.

A lot going on in this episode, so plenty to chew on and no dawdling - I loved that - I dearly hope they can keep that up (perhaps not always to this degree, but I hope they pace it better than the previous couple of seasons). A strong premiere episode from Angela Kang, so bravo to her. :cool::thumbsup::)

Loads of bits and pieces that I really enjoyed here, such as Judith painting her picture as Michonne and Rick watch on.

Feels good to have TWD back on my telly box. :cool:

- - - Updated - - -

Been thinking about the episode all day and I really enjoyed it. From the zombie apocalypse 'desolation porn' to various character moments (e.g. Daryl and Carol's chat, Rick & Michonne - in Negan's bed, I think?), there was so much going on.

Watching Talking Dead and it was encouraging to hear Kang talk about the decision to hang Gregory in this episode and not, as we would have normally expected, drag it out for a few episodes. We've seen plenty of dribs and drabs of that plotline drawn out from seasons 5b through 8, so to have the big climax to it in this episode felt good - moreso because Maggie dealt with the problem swiftly once it was clear there was no alternative (i.e. none of that silly bullshit like in FearTWD season 4b with the crazy face-writing lady). I'm hoping we'll see more of this type of thing from the writers now that Kang is showrunner.

TWD 9x01 Memes:

https://deadshed.blogspot.com/2018/10/pookie-zone-edition-walking-dead-9x01.html

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-5ozLntTMmds/W7uAAA2j2PI/AAAAAAAAGAg/ABqJab7zQ8Ixdp_nMZ5NtIOfg6LmhsNrgCLcBGAs/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_9_Meme_Daryl_Horses_Motorb ikes_Forever_9x01_DeadShed.jpg

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-oq9H6u4M8is/W7uDXDGRK3I/AAAAAAAAGAw/lOmMViXMz34NEOzPfn07kO5D7bx5jhWEACLcBGAs/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_9_Meme_Carol_Ezekiel_Kiss_ Daryl_Cry_Friend_Zoned_Alt_9x01_DeadShed.jpg


:)

[shootemindehead]

Not bad.

About time that little rat was strung up.

[JDP]

A year and a half and all these people still haven't got their shit together yet and are just starting to look for the tools to re-start society again...??? I guess that after the Savior war they all just took a very long vacation!

[Moon Knight]

Brett Butler who played Tammy Rose did a great job with the character. Well done.

This is an episode I can watch again. Haven’t done that in a while.

[facestabber]

A year and a half and all these people still haven't got their shit together yet and are just starting to look for the tools to re-start society again...??? I guess that after the Savior war they all just took a very long vacation!

I'd say they have done a solid job of surviving. They seem to have good communications/teamwork. The roads mapped out and the times they are safe to travel them. They are producing ethanol and IIRC Alexandria and Hilltop had farms and growing ops prior. Well unless the bombing at Alexandria destroyed it. Sanctuary is hungry but no one is starving to death. Speaking of which why is Regina allowed to be around? She had some scum bag Negan love in here didnt she? She should be jailed at minimum. Seem like a safe bet she'd be secretly building a coup.

[Moon Knight]

I'd say they have done a solid job of surviving. They seem to have good communications/teamwork. The roads mapped out and the times they are safe to travel them. They are producing ethanol and IIRC Alexandria and Hilltop had farms and growing ops prior. Well unless the bombing at Alexandria destroyed it. Sanctuary is hungry but no one is starving to death. Speaking of which why is Regina allowed to be around? She had some scum bag Negan love in here didnt she? She should be jailed at minimum. Seem like a safe bet she'd be secretly building a coup.

That’s how I feel about Arat. She’s the one that killed Olivia.

[JDP]

I'd say they have done a solid job of surviving. They seem to have good communications/teamwork. The roads mapped out and the times they are safe to travel them. They are producing ethanol and IIRC Alexandria and Hilltop had farms and growing ops prior. Well unless the bombing at Alexandria destroyed it. Sanctuary is hungry but no one is starving to death. Speaking of which why is Regina allowed to be around? She had some scum bag Negan love in here didnt she? She should be jailed at minimum. Seem like a safe bet she'd be secretly building a coup.

For a year and half they seem surprisingly "stuck" at a similar level they were in before the Savior war. They are even just now starting to look for things like horse-drawn carts and plows to help in the "rebuilding society" process. Plus the relationships between these groups and leading characters are far from being settled. Is it believable, for example, that a sneaky scoundrel like Gregory would have waited this long before making a move to try to eliminate Maggie so that he could regain control of his own community? Or for Maggie or Daryl to voice their opposition to Rick for having spared Negan?

I agree with your comments about some Saviors. Some of them should at least have been jailed or banished, like they did it to Negan and Dwight.

[MinionZombie]

A year and a half and all these people still haven't got their shit together yet and are just starting to look for the tools to re-start society again...??? I guess that after the Savior war they all just took a very long vacation!


I'd say they have done a solid job of surviving. They seem to have good communications/teamwork. The roads mapped out and the times they are safe to travel them. They are producing ethanol and IIRC Alexandria and Hilltop had farms and growing ops prior. Well unless the bombing at Alexandria destroyed it. Sanctuary is hungry but no one is starving to death. Speaking of which why is Regina allowed to be around? She had some scum bag Negan love in here didnt she? She should be jailed at minimum. Seem like a safe bet she'd be secretly building a coup.


For a year and half they seem surprisingly "stuck" at a similar level they were in before the Savior war. They are even just now starting to look for things like horse-drawn carts and plows to help in the "rebuilding society" process. Plus the relationships between these groups and leading characters are far from being settled. Is it believable, for example, that a sneaky scoundrel like Gregory would have waited this long before making a move to try to eliminate Maggie so that he could regain control of his own community? Or for Maggie or Daryl to voice their opposition to Rick for having spared Negan?

I agree with your comments about some Saviors. Some of them should at least have been jailed or banished, like they did it to Negan and Dwight.

They've been busy, and they weren't 'only just' starting to look for horse drawn carts etc - notice how they arrived in DC on horses and carts. They were getting more supplies and vehicles and tools.

We saw various big shots of the communities and they've clearly been very busy, especially Hilltop and Alexandria - the latter, of course, required a lot of rebuilding, so that would have taken plenty of time. They will have also been busy clearing certain areas, creating safe routes (as we saw - they had their various routes which had already been well travelled, they had their communications technique down pat etc), so they've not been sat on their arses at all.

They've been fermenting corn fuel, they've been growing crops, they've been rebuilding etc etc etc.

As for Gregory - the election was only held quite recently, until then it will have been 'Maggie is in charge through merit' (she became defacto leader through action and capability, while Gregory lost his position of power through inaction and inability). So Gregory's grievance over being voted out of office, as it were, is pretty new and raw. The death of Ken is his first real chance to drive a wedge into Maggie's leadership (the speech at the funeral, him getting Ken's sober father drunk and using him to attempt the assassination of Maggie).

Dwight - IIRC it was partly self-imposed exile. Those who wanted to kill him when it was all over took a different view. They didn't want to kill him, but they didn't want him around, and likewise Dwight didn't want to hang around either.

In terms of other Lieutenants etc, they were under Negan's command, but they were also open to putting down their weapons and working on a better solution post-AOW. Indeed, the whole setup is that Sanctuary is essentially Germany post-WW1 (no weapons) and Berlin post-WW2 (essentially carved up amongst the allied victors, but in-turn their responsibility).

A year and a half has passed and they've all had plenty to do to not only get their communities back up and running to a relatively healthy degree, but they've also had a lot to decompress from personally - deaths of loved ones, the ravages of war etc. 18 months can go quick when you've got plenty to be getting on with, and tensions by their very nature tend to simmer rather than launch out immediately.

[facestabber]

For a year and half they seem surprisingly "stuck" at a similar level they were in before the Savior war. They are even just now starting to look for things like horse-drawn carts and plows to help in the "rebuilding society" process. Plus the relationships between these groups and leading characters are far from being settled. Is it believable, for example, that a sneaky scoundrel like Gregory would have waited this long before making a move to try to eliminate Maggie so that he could regain control of his own community? Or for Maggie or Daryl to voice their opposition to Rick for having spared Negan?

I agree with your comments about some Saviors. Some of them should at least have been jailed or banished, like they did it to Negan and Dwight.

Yea I'd have to say Gregorys 18 month wait seemed excessively long for a power driven guy like him. Add to that, Gabriel survived Gregory's shenanigans at the Sanctuary and would have spoke to Rick and Co about what he did to him. At minimum he should have been jailed. As far as farming goes, I believe that had and were using Diesel powered tractors and the like. I'm sure there was some complacency to return to old school, but lack of parts and repair eventually took its toll. Maybe the tractors are still operational, but beginning to wear out so they are trying to copy animal driven tools. A modern day blacksmith, which I wouldnt think would be too common anyway, probably never vested much time if any to building century old tool designs. So for the group to get creative and seek out museum pieces as a guide to copy seemed pretty cool to me.

[MinionZombie]

There was one little pang of sadness watching the episode, for me - when one of the characters mentions someone wants to apprentice with the blacksmith I was like, ohhh ... that should be Carl. :( (As it was in the comics). But, well, that decision is on Gimple & AMC's heads. :|

[Moon Knight]

There was one little pang of sadness watching the episode, for me - when one of the characters mentions someone wants to apprentice with the blacksmith I was like, ohhh ... that should be Carl. :( (As it was in the comics). But, well, that decision is on Gimple & AMC's heads. :|

They even made the blacksmith a jerk. I had a few nitpicks but that change was kinda unnecessary.

[JDP]

They've been busy, and they weren't 'only just' starting to look for horse drawn carts etc - notice how they arrived in DC on horses and carts. They were getting more supplies and vehicles and tools.

We saw various big shots of the communities and they've clearly been very busy, especially Hilltop and Alexandria - the latter, of course, required a lot of rebuilding, so that would have taken plenty of time. They will have also been busy clearing certain areas, creating safe routes (as we saw - they had their various routes which had already been well travelled, they had their communications technique down pat etc), so they've not been sat on their arses at all.

They've been fermenting corn fuel, they've been growing crops, they've been rebuilding etc etc etc.

As for Gregory - the election was only held quite recently, until then it will have been 'Maggie is in charge through merit' (she became defacto leader through action and capability, while Gregory lost his position of power through inaction and inability). So Gregory's grievance over being voted out of office, as it were, is pretty new and raw. The death of Ken is his first real chance to drive a wedge into Maggie's leadership (the speech at the funeral, him getting Ken's sober father drunk and using him to attempt the assassination of Maggie).

Dwight - IIRC it was partly self-imposed exile. Those who wanted to kill him when it was all over took a different view. They didn't want to kill him, but they didn't want him around, and likewise Dwight didn't want to hang around either.

In terms of other Lieutenants etc, they were under Negan's command, but they were also open to putting down their weapons and working on a better solution post-AOW. Indeed, the whole setup is that Sanctuary is essentially Germany post-WW1 (no weapons) and Berlin post-WW2 (essentially carved up amongst the allied victors, but in-turn their responsibility).

A year and a half has passed and they've all had plenty to do to not only get their communities back up and running to a relatively healthy degree, but they've also had a lot to decompress from personally - deaths of loved ones, the ravages of war etc. 18 months can go quick when you've got plenty to be getting on with, and tensions by their very nature tend to simmer rather than launch out immediately.

Seems like an awful lot of time to make such few achievements. The only community that endured substantial damage was Alexandria. The other ones were all functional when the war ended. There is hardly much excuse for such little progress after one year and half! These guys should already be building carts, plows, rudimentary wind-mills, etc. They've had plenty of time to be looking into these things. They even have access to all the info on such things conveniently collected by that lady (forget her name now) that showed up out of nowhere.

Gregory is not the kind of guy who would sit around for a year and half just "waiting" to see if his old job conveniently lands on his lap again. He was already trying to get rid of Maggie and get his former place back before all this. There is no reason why he should have waited this long to continue trying. Do you expect anyone to believe that the death of Ken is the only thing that happened in all this time that Gregory would have tried to use to his advantage and against Maggie??? Very unrealistic to think that that was the only zombie-induced death among the Hilltoppers in all this time!

Dwight was certainly banished. The reason why he fully agreed with the sentence is because he knows what the alternative is: DEATH. Better to be free and fend for yourself than be six feet under!

The "we were under Negan's orders" excuse does not work for some of the Saviors. Some of these guys acted out of pure malice on their own, even when Negan wasn't around or did not give any specific orders for doing something rotten. There is a reason why Dwight, for example, cannot use this excuse to try to exonerate himself. He acted like a total a-hole, even when he himself was escaping from Negan (Dwight left Daryl stranded in the middle of hostile territory without transport & weapons when he in fact was helping Dwight and his companions escape the Saviors... for that alone he already deserved to die!)

[Moon Knight]

Gregory just needed a reason to manipulate others to do his dirty work. That’s not happening over night.

[MinionZombie]

Gregory just needed a reason to manipulate others to do his dirty work. That’s not happening over night.

Indeed. Gregory can only do so much if the Hilltoppers don't respect him. Hell, those people chose Maggie as defacto leader because of Gregory's piss poor leadership. I'd imagine he would have laid low for a good while, let time heal some wounds, then he'd start coming out of his shell again. The death of Ken was the perfect opportunity for him to exploit a situation to his benefit (in the wake of an official election which was only held relatively recently). Said election was probably what got Gregory's gears grinding again, too - then he pounced on the first chance he got, having quietly seethed for a good while. He was a politician, he knew how to bide his time and wait for an opportunity.

Damage to the communities is not just physical property damage, it's also in terms of the people they lost in the war, the divisions created across communities or within communities. The emotional fallout from such an event would linger long and hard - there'd be a fair bit of PTSD going around, quite possibly - and much like in the wake of WW2, they can't just bounce back to normality in the blink of an eye. Crops are seasonal, supplies need to be gathered from a world that has already been ravaged and pillaged (with fuel becoming scarce in the intervening time - so horse-drawn supply runs will take even longer), walls and defences need to be rebuilt, walker herds need to be redirected, travel routes need to be opened up - all that and more with fewer people than they had before.

Back to the WW2 example - Britain took years to get back on its feet after the ravages of WW2. Rationing alone continued until 1954, for crying out loud. All Out War in TWD has been modelled on world wars in many ways, and as such the communities aren't going to bounce back in a flash.

[JDP]

Indeed. Gregory can only do so much if the Hilltoppers don't respect him. Hell, those people chose Maggie as defacto leader because of Gregory's piss poor leadership. I'd imagine he would have laid low for a good while, let time heal some wounds, then he'd start coming out of his shell again. The death of Ken was the perfect opportunity for him to exploit a situation to his benefit (in the wake of an official election which was only held relatively recently). Said election was probably what got Gregory's gears grinding again, too - then he pounced on the first chance he got, having quietly seethed for a good while. He was a politician, he knew how to bide his time and wait for an opportunity.

Damage to the communities is not just physical property damage, it's also in terms of the people they lost in the war, the divisions created across communities or within communities. The emotional fallout from such an event would linger long and hard - there'd be a fair bit of PTSD going around, quite possibly - and much like in the wake of WW2, they can't just bounce back to normality in the blink of an eye. Crops are seasonal, supplies need to be gathered from a world that has already been ravaged and pillaged (with fuel becoming scarce in the intervening time - so horse-drawn supply runs will take even longer), walls and defences need to be rebuilt, walker herds need to be redirected, travel routes need to be opened up - all that and more with fewer people than they had before.

Back to the WW2 example - Britain took years to get back on its feet after the ravages of WW2. Rationing alone continued until 1954, for crying out loud. All Out War in TWD has been modelled on world wars in many ways, and as such the communities aren't going to bounce back in a flash.

Again, extremely unrealistic to think that Ken's death was the only thing that happened at the Hilltop in a year and half that someone like Gregory would have tried to use to his advantage to get rid of Maggie. I bet there were more zombie-related deaths in all this time that he could have used against Maggie as well.

There is not much comparison with WW2. Britain got the heck bombed out of it day & night, plus it also had to send large numbers of troops to fight overseas in a bunch of places, and the whole world was strongly affected by the same war. Easy to see why it took years to recover. The only thing similar in this smaller scale war was the bombing of Alexandria. But they certainly had enough man-power left to fix the place after the war in quite less than a year and half, since the majority of the Alexandrians in fact escaped the bombing. The Kingdom lost many men, but they did not suffer any significant damages. They did not have to make much of an effort to rebuild anything.

[Moon Knight]

Makes perfect sense to me. Gregory had to build up his trust with his people again if he was gonna have them do anything he wanted. A snake is patient. The narrative works.

[MinionZombie]

There is not much comparison with WW2. Britain got the heck bombed out of it day & night, plus it also had to send large numbers of troops to fight overseas in a bunch of places, and the whole world was strongly affected by the same war. Easy to see why it took years to recover. The only thing similar in this smaller scale war was the bombing of Alexandria. But they certainly had enough man-power left to fix the place after the war in quite less than a year and half, since the majority of the Alexandrians in fact escaped the bombing. The Kingdom lost many men, but they did not suffer any significant damages. They did not have to make much of an effort to rebuild anything.

You mean aside from all the comparisons to WW2? ;)

Rebuilding isn't just about property damage, though. It's also about the mental toll it takes on everyone. Plus the aforementioned screed of tasks that they've all been carrying out since then (e.g. figuring out how to ferment corn to produce fuel and actually achieving that goal). The 18 months also includes some time spent regaining a sense of normality and finding some new comfort (e.g. Ezekiel and Carol have got into a serious relationship). They're all at different stages in dealing with the fallout, and Sanctuary is very much like Germany/Berlin in the wake of war - demilitarised and carved up amongst the allies who have a shared responsibility to not only support the remaining people, but incorporate them back into the wider society.


Makes perfect sense to me. Gregory had to build up his trust with his people again if he was gonna have them do anything he wanted. A snake is patient. The narrative works.

Exactly. Plus, with the Ken, it wasn't just about him - it was about his parents, too. The mother explicity states that she voted for Maggie - but now Maggie has let her down by taking her son along on this supply run and he's ended up dead. A potent symbol of 'failure' in Maggie's leadership that Gregory can exploit craftily. The parents still being there allowed Gregory to manipulate them - they are susceptible people because of their grief (hence getting the sober father drunk and convincing him to carry out the assassination attempt Gregory didn't have to get his hands dirty and could plead plausible deniability).

[JDP]

You mean aside from all the comparisons to WW2? ;)

Rebuilding isn't just about property damage, though. It's also about the mental toll it takes on everyone. Plus the aforementioned screed of tasks that they've all been carrying out since then (e.g. figuring out how to ferment corn to produce fuel and actually achieving that goal). The 18 months also includes some time spent regaining a sense of normality and finding some new comfort (e.g. Ezekiel and Carol have got into a serious relationship). They're all at different stages in dealing with the fallout, and Sanctuary is very much like Germany/Berlin in the wake of war - demilitarised and carved up amongst the allies who have a shared responsibility to not only support the remaining people, but incorporate them back into the wider society.


How does any of this prevent them from already being able to construct their own plows & carts? These are not too complicated tasks for them to take a year and half to look into. They should already have dealt with such basic things. We are talking about being able to keep up the food supply here, one of the most essential things for survival.

And yes, it's more than just property damages, but they STILL have not dealt with them either! Maggie and Daryl still haven't confronted Rick. Gregory takes unusually long to try to get back control of his community. In a year and a half of time there would have been plenty of opportunities for such things to already have happened.

[shootemindehead]

A year and a half isn't that long and you're talking about people that have no practical knowledge about such things.

I'd wager that there's nobody on here or even that I know in real life that could "construct their own plow", without a detail step by step guide.

[JDP]

A year and a half isn't that long and you're talking about people that have no practical knowledge about such things.

I'd wager that there's nobody on here or even that I know in real life that could "construct their own plow", without a detail step by step guide.

That information and more is presumably already conveniently gathered in the "manual" that lady gave Maggie in exchange for some things. So they already got most of the research done for them. A year and half is plenty of time to already have gotten to such basic stuff as building plows and carts. They need these basic tools for larger scale food production and transportation. These are not "luxury" items but necessary for the survival of the communities.

[Moon Knight]

JDP just likes to make arguements.

Lol don’t even bother.

[JDP]

JDP just likes to make arguements.

Lol don’t even bother.

All of them are valid arguments and observations.

[Moon Knight]

All of them are valid arguments and observations.

You just watch stuff just to complain about it. Weird.

[shootemindehead]

That information and more is presumably already conveniently gathered in the "manual" that lady gave Maggie in exchange for some things. So they already got most of the research done for them. A year and half is plenty of time to already have gotten to such basic stuff as building plows and carts. They need these basic tools for larger scale food production and transportation. These are not "luxury" items but necessary for the survival of the communities.

Is it? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

In any case, theoretical writings and whatnot are no substitute for practical application and it takes time - a lot of time - to realise those applications. Rome wasn't built in a day, as the saying goes, and as I said a year and a half isn't a long time. If we were talking about 5 years, you'd have a better point. But we're not. It's about 16 to 18 months. It 70 odd weeks, or so. That's not that long a stretch, especially in the face of everything such a world as the one in TWD presents.

Plus, we don't really know what's been going on in the world of TWD in that year and a half. But, more than likely, a lot of that time at the beginning of this new phase was probably spent trying to get everyone in line. When we left Rick an Co in the last series, he was simply telling everyone to go home. That doesn't mean that they all woke up the next morning and started talking about building plows. Nobody in that show knows how to do that. Why would they? They all 21st century people, thrust into a society where all of a sudden such a thing is of import.

You may say it's "basic". But is it? Such things may seem basic to us, because we live in a world where those items are largely antiquated. But, building such things is another matter entirely. Also, you need to be able to draw those items too. You need a motor, ie a horse, and such things are also in short supply. They also require care in the form form of hostlers and farriers etc, who are in even shorter supply.

The bottom line is, without the skills required to manufacture, make and maintain such "basic" items, everything becomes an obstacle, which requires a length of time to negotiate.

In addition, you keep mentioning carts, but they have carts. So the argument about building them is null and void. They went to Washington on horse and cart made from various bits and pieces.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a2/97/7b/a2977b05fdebd21120add3101ef6755a.jpg

[JDP]

Is it? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The lady said that information about everything necessary to rebuild society was there. Old technology for a new world. Plows and carts/wagons are presumably there. Very old and necessary tools.


In any case, theoretical writings and whatnot are no substitute for practical application and it takes time - a lot of time - to realise those applications. Rome wasn't built in a day, as the saying goes, and as I said a year and a half isn't a long time. If we were talking about 5 years, you'd have a better point. But we're not. It's about 16 to 18 months. It 70 odd weeks, or so. That's not that long a stretch, especially in the face of everything such a world as the one in TWD presents.

But it is precisely because this is the world of TWD that one year and half is quite a long time: these people have nothing else to do but survive and try to rebuild society! These people don't have the time for going to the movies or critiquing TV shows in Internet forums, like we do. We have plenty of spare time in our hands because we live in fully functional societies and can afford to spend some of our time doing trivial entertaining things. They can't. In their minds there is nothing else but "survive" and "rebuild society". So, what have they been doing for a year and a half then??? You would think that learning how to build basic tools to increase food supply and transport it would have been a priority. But they are just beginning to look into this.


Plus, we don't really know what's been going on in the world of TWD in that year and a half. But, more than likely, a lot of that time at the beginning of this new phase was probably spent trying to get everyone in line. When we left Rick an Co in the last series, he was simply telling everyone to go home. That doesn't mean that they all woke up the next morning and started talking about building plows. Nobody in that show knows how to do that. Why would they? They all 21st century people, thrust into a society where all of a sudden such a thing is of import.

Not quite. The Hilltoppers are basically a community of farmers and they have been making their own tools and weapons for quite a while. They already have experience in reproducing some old technology. Plus Alexandria has a "whiz kid", Eugene, who even came up with ways to make ammunition from what's available. The guy has a natural talent for this kind of "MacGyver" improvising stuff. It should not be so difficult to make plows and carts/wagons for these people. Certainly not a year and half! But again, this is not the biggest issue. The fact is that they are actually just now beginning to look into this... after a year and half! Even if we could argue lack of experience on their part for not having been able to reproduce such items, the problem is that they did not already look into this much sooner. We are not talking about something trivial here, but something that will allow them to increase the food production, a priority for the survival and expansion of these communities. They should already have dealt with such basics of society-building a long time ago.


You may say it's "basic". But is it? Such things may seem basic to us, because we live in a world where those items are largely antiquated. But, building such things is another matter entirely. Also, you need to be able to draw those items too. You need a motor, ie a horse, and such things are also in short supply. They also require care in the form form of hostlers and farriers etc, who are in even shorter supply.

The Kingdom has horses. It is their main way of transportation. Now the communities want to employ them to draw plows and carts/wagons to increase food production & transport. Makes perfect sense... but they should have thought of this way sooner, not a year and a half later! They have been talking about rebuilding society for quite a time in this show, it's not something "new" to these characters.


The bottom line is, without the skills required to manufacture, make and maintain such "basic" items, everything becomes an obstacle, which requires a length of time to negotiate.

In addition, you keep mentioning carts, but they have carts. So the argument about building them is null and void. They went to Washington on horse and cart made from various bits and pieces.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a2/97/7b/a2977b05fdebd21120add3101ef6755a.jpg

Didn't you notice all the trouble they went through to get the old cart/wagon from the museum? They want to learn how to make them from scratch.

[MinionZombie]

There's another thing to consider as well - this is a scripted drama - there is such a thing as creative license. If you had incredibly important, dramatic events happening off screen between episodes you'd be missing important, dramatic chunks in your story telling. You'd have to fill them with flashbacks (which can get confusing or clunky when overused) or screeds of exposition.

Writers manipulate the drama to create a story, you have to arrange events, craft through-lines, cut certain corners, combine details etc etc etc. It's why adaptations of true stories contain composite characters, compressed/re-arranged timelines of events and so on (because events in real life take a long time to unfold and tend to do so in a manner that grinds against the grain of narrative composition).


Didn't you notice all the trouble they went through to get the old cart/wagon from the museum? They want to learn how to make them from scratch.

Getting the cart is much like boosting a car, but horse-drawn carts aren't going to be littered around all over the place as pre-ZA they had long since been rendered archaic generally speaking. The practical carts (i.e. not some dinky little pony show jobby) will most likely be in museums (where they've been protected from the elements, wood rot etc).

[shootemindehead]

The lady said that information about everything necessary to rebuild society was there. Old technology for a new world. Plows and carts/wagons are presumably there. Very old and necessary tools.

That's just assumption. We don't know this.

Anyway, whatever, I'm not going to get into a long back and forth over this.

[facestabber]

At least this episode sparked conversation. If the ZA hits I will seek out JDP and inquire when my old school farm equipment will be ready. Hahahahahaha. Just joking around.

[Moon Knight]

The Walkers were so top notch this episode. The way each one was highlighted was a work of art. I heard GN was going for a Day of the Dead vibe.

[facestabber]

The Walkers were so top notch this episode. The way each one was highlighted was a work of art. I heard GN was going for a Day of the Dead vibe.

The work GN has done on this show has set the bar higher than ever.

[MinionZombie]

The Walkers were so top notch this episode. The way each one was highlighted was a work of art. I heard GN was going for a Day of the Dead vibe.

Yeah, he was saying on Talking Dead that they wanted to feature the walkers a bit more - so they did a lot of close ups as the initial reveal. The 'jaw hanging off' walker was awesome - a perfect marriage of practical and CGI effects.

The city stuff looked really cool, I definitely got a Day of the Dead vibe from it. A few well-placed dutch angles, ruined vehicles, detritus scattered all over ... awesome. The 'fall of civilisation' vibe was strong and therefore very appropriate for the wider themes of TWD post-AOW. :thumbsup:


The work GN has done on this show has set the bar higher than ever.

Damn straight! The KNB team continually out-do themselves. Just when you think they've played all their tricks - bam - spider walker! :stunned:

[Moon Knight]

The work GN has done on this show has set the bar higher than ever.

Yeah, 9 seasons now and still finding cool ways to showcase zombies.

[UndeadHippo]

Only just caught up on this episode and a few things stuck out:

The Good: Father Gabriel looks badass with one eye and a big hat. loved his "ascent of man" artwork, and the fact that Anne (jadis) picked up on it. she's still an artist at heart, and an ex teacher?

The Bad: Having the leaders of every community, (Rick, Ezekiel, Maggie, Daryl and Oceanside whatserface (really cant remember, and not sure if she took over leadership)) all out on what is basically a supply run, seems somewhat foolish. if something unforseen happens, say an explosion, or a sudden herd of stealth zombies then there's nobody left to take over and pick up the pieces. These guys know better than to take risks like that.

The Ugly: Spider walker was awesome, and a nice moment for Siddiq (who so far has done sod all since Carl's exit).

Finally. RIP Gregory. you truly were ,as father Gabriel would say, "A Colossal Shit"