TWD 9x05 "What Comes After" episode discussion... **SPOILERS**

[MinionZombie]

Please keep all talk of episode 9x05 "What Comes After" specifically inside this thread.

If you have a theory for a following episode, please use the "spoiler tags" (visit the HPOTD FAQ to find out how to use them if you don't already know).

Similarly, if you're going to discuss plot points from the comic book, please use "spoiler tags" - not everyone is up-to-date on them, and some people don't read them at all.

Enjoy!

Directed by: Greg Nicotero
Written by: Story by : Scott M. Gimple & Matthew Negrete, Teleplay by : Matthew Negrete


Rick is forced to face the past as he struggles to maintain the safety of the communities and protect the future he and Carl envisioned.

https://dailydead.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/TWD-905-01.jpg

[Moon Knight]

Dammit, MZ! Rick’s last episode and you choose a pic of Jadis??

I’m not prepared for this.

[MinionZombie]

Dammit, MZ! Rick’s last episode and you choose a pic of Jadis??

I’m not prepared for this.

:lol::lol::lol:

Well the other pic was Rick skewered on the rebar, but I didn't want to have that conversation leak over from 9x04.

Besides ... this picture got my theories tingling.

[Moon Knight]

:lol::lol::lol:

Well the other pic was Rick skewered on the rebar, but I didn't want to have that conversation leak over from 9x04.

Besides ... this picture got my theories tingling.

Good call.

I guess one good thing coming out of 9x05 is that this pretensius Jadis storyline will finally be over.

[Neil]

Highest watch figures ever?

[Harleydude666]

Wouldn’t it be really cool if Rick was saved by that helicopter and taken away right before the walkers attempt to devour him? This way it leaves his demise open and we’re left with that cliffhanger for ever how long. So if the series concludes 3 years or 5 years from now he can always be brought back to close it out. If it warrants it.

[Moon Knight]

Highest watch figures ever?

I doubt it. Will be interesting to see what it ultimately does.

[facestabber]

Wouldn’t it be really cool if Rick was saved by that helicopter and taken away right before the walkers attempt to devour him? This way it leaves his demise open and we’re left with that cliffhanger for ever how long. So if the series concludes 3 years or 5 years from now he can always be brought back to close it out. If it warrants it.

The helicopter hasn't been around for no reason. I always go back to what lincoln said at SDCC. This is my last SEASON. Not episode. Not movie etc etc.

[Harleydude666]

The helicopter hasn't been around for no reason. I always go back to what lincoln said at SDCC. This is my last SEASON. Not episode. Not movie etc etc.

You might be reaching there, but I’ll hold out hope

[facestabber]

Rick mother fucking Grimes. All is right in the world when Rick is alive. Hershel, Shane and even Sasha had amazing scenes. Can't even start to process it all

[Harleydude666]

Great episode and nice open ending. I like that they are time jumping, it makes things fresh once again. I’m looking forward to where the writers take us. Love the “Cardille” reference. Gotta be a Romero freak to catch those

[Moon Knight]

Going in I was anticipating being really depressed with the loss of Rick. This I did not expect! The hype is real! Damn seeing Shane and Hershel back was beautiful. I remembered why Shane was my favorite character.

When Carl was killed I didn’t mind because I felt like they could use Judith as that remaining Grimes kid; her ties to Shane is just icing on the cake. So happy they went with the six year time jump. Looks like they used Henry’s real life older brother to play older Henry too. Makes upcoming storylines make more sense.

Rick is alive somewhere and we don’t have to wait months to see what has happened in six years.

[JDP]

So, this whole "Rick Grimes' Final Episode" thing was really a ploy to move this character to a series of feature movies for AMC. It seems the producers want to keep on "milking the zombie cow". This could be good for hardcore fans who can't get enough zombies, but for the average viewer it might mean over-saturation and getting bored with the genre. Let's not forget what happened with FTWD. It has dropped in viewership. Even TWD has.

Is Judith a good substitute for Rick??? Somehow I am not very optimistic about this. A small kid with an over-sized cowboy hat, a dwarf katana and a gun does not seem to be as "serious". If you thought that Carl was still too young to take over Rick's place, this takes it to the next level.

I do hope that the helicopter that picked up Rick and Jadis/Anne does not mysteriously go "unnoticed" by everyone else. The location where Jadis/Anne finds Rick and the helicopter comes down is not far away from the bridge, so obviously a whole bunch of people in the group must have seen it. I expect that this "helicopter issue" should come up in future episodes. Are we to expect that these survivors who live in a world where they are still struggling to make horse-drawn carts and plows wouldn't be intrigued by the sudden appearance of a helicopter that lands nearby? Nobody comments, speculates or bothers to try to find out what is that all about?? It will be extremely unrealistic if that is what happens.

As for the "Cardille" reference: Talking Dead said it was a reference to Bill "Chilly Billy" Cardille from Night of the Living Dead, but maybe it's also referring to his daughter, Lori Cardille, from Day of the Dead.

[MinionZombie]

*phew* :)

So glad that Rick is still alive.

This is why I posted the picture of Anne/Jadis, because it suggested to me that one of my theories could be correct. I knew that Rick wouldn't go anywhere else willingly, so he'd have to be at death's door in order for anyone to manage to take him, as-it-were. This also suggests a whole other community somewhere (I've theorised on who it could be in a previous thread for an episode in this season).

Loved the way they transitioned from the chopper flying away (notice how the music was the same music from the end of 1x01) to show the passage of time before introducing the new set of characters. All those seasons with Gimple as showrunner and, what, less than a year passes during his entire tenure ... Angela Kang has a love of moving the show along when it needs it and I'm so on board with that. The show has needed that sense of time progression for a long time. When viewers complained about pacing I think that is ultimately what they meant - the time passing for Rick & Co was too brief compared to the weeks and months passing for us the viewers. So Kang & Co are friggin' knocking it out of the park. :hyper::cool::thumbsup:

All this talk of Rick, understandably, does distract from another major moment - Maggie vs Negan. Great to see that that wasn't dragged out too long either and she understood Rick's reasons. Plus, seeing Negan as this babbling shell of his former self was quite a turn of events - he's broken ... ... but the tease for the next three episodes suggests he finds some sort of peace with his new lot in life and even hints at a version of the 'hope for the future flash forwards' that we saw in Season 8 (when Rick, Judith, and Negan were gardening together).

Speaking of Judith - it's been great to get more of her in the show, and now with her taking on the reigns of 'Carl territory', you could say in some ways, I'm happy. She's not some 'defacto leader', don't be daft, but she's been growing up in this world and will know how to take care of herself. She'll be trained in weapons and survival tactics - and it's going to be interesting to see how Judith, as a 'child of the apocalypse', operates compared to the adults who were forced to make the transition and even some of the other young ones (e.g. Henry). Indeed, with Judith, think of children who grow up in war zones or unstable countries that constantly see death, destruction, and war. The kids who survive in that awful environment know how to survive ... so Judith will likewise, plus she'll have the benefit of the aforementioned training.

I've not seen Talking Dead yet, so I'm not sure what the passage of time is going to be - but evidently it's been years, just going from Judith and Carol's hair - god-damn! hehe, it's like "coming up on The Walking Dead: badass new hair styles". :D

Now ... when Rick re-appears, I wonder how they're going to do it what with the passage of time. How will they write it so that he's not made his way back to Alexandria in the intervening years. Hopefully that all shakes out well.

Speaking of ... I coulda sworn I read that Rick Grimes was going to be in six episodes this season - so we've got one more, if that is still the case. :shifty:

Matthew Negrette - who wrote the teleplay (and, indeed, Gimple - who co-wrote the story) - handled this episode superbly, and Kang has been doing wonders with her stewardship of this season. The show really has rediscovered it's mojo and, incredibly - in an episode which sees the departure of Rick-ruddy-Grimes - I'm genuinely so excited and jazzed about what's coming up, to see the rejuvenation and where things go from here. It's like we've gone from nibbling on rations in the last couple of seasons to being fed a full blown three-course-meal every week now, and it's awesome!!!

The 'field of the dead' was a nifty scene, too - notice Shane near the camera in the wide shot as Rick and Sasha talk - and there were various other references (e.g. Beth, albeit turned away from camera).

Oh, man ... yep ... seriously jazzed from this episode. HYPE!!!!!!!!!! :hyper:

[facestabber]

Did you folks catch the garbled radio traffic when Jadis heard someone's voice say "there's his gun". Referring to Ricks .357. Or am I imagining things?

[Moon Knight]

Did you folks catch the garbled radio traffic when Jadis heard someone's voice say "there's his gun". Referring to Ricks .357. Or am I imagining things?

I did catch that but wasn’t sure what was said. Did Judith have Rick’s gun? I was too excited to notice haha.

It has been confirmed that six years has passed.

[facestabber]

I did catch that but wasn’t sure what was said. Did Judith have Rick’s gun? I was too excited to notice haha.

It has been confirmed that six years has passed.

Yes Judith has the Python. And this season has really stepped it up. 7&8 really had me feeling down. But I like where this is headed.

[JDP]

Did you folks catch the garbled radio traffic when Jadis heard someone's voice say "there's his gun". Referring to Ricks .357. Or am I imagining things?

The radio exchange:

Some guy: What was that? Was that the bridge?

Another guy: Rick! He blew it to stop the herd!

Sounds like Maggie's voice: Move north, break up the rest, bring some guns!

[Moon Knight]

Yes Judith has the Python. And this season has really stepped it up. 7&8 really had me feeling down. But I like where this is headed.

Same feeling 100%.

When the episode ended I was like damn I can’t wait till next year to see the future, then realized “wait, this starts next weekend!” Lol damn I love Kang.

[MinionZombie]

Same feeling 100%.

When the episode ended I was like damn I can’t wait till next year to see the future, then realized “wait, this starts next weekend!” Lol damn I love Kang.

Fuckin' A - Kang has worked some wonderful voodoo on TWD.

The one thing I'm a big iffy about is Judith having Rick's gun. I get that she's kind of taken on these parts of her family - the hat (she's now the second person to inherit it after Carl did in season 2), the katana (Michonne), and the gun (Rick) ... however that gun is just too damn big for a child. I'd have preferred a smaller lookalike, with the actual gun placed on the mantle back at their home as a sort of memory/shrine to their dearly departed father/partner/leader (although we know he's alive). Especially as the katana is a smaller version, you know? It'd make sense to have a smaller version of Rick's gun, rather than the actual one.

However, that is only a teeny tiny gripe.

So ... three TV movies starring Rick Grimes. Interesting! I assume they'll fill in the gap with Anne/Jadis along for the ride, and take place during that six year gap. Could we possibly see Rick return somewhere along the time line? I've got no idea how they'll fill in the six year gap (plus however long passes before we may get Rick back on the main show).

And here's something - will Michonne have had a child in the intervening years? She and Rick tried for one earlier this season, so especially with the time jump, it could well be that she had become pregnant and discovered as much after the apparent 'death' of Rick.

Blimey. Six years ... but it's nice to know that these characters do actually get some time to live, you know? They were so rarely afforded that opportunity under Gimple's regularly compressed time frames (which meant that deeper character development - relationships and the like - felt a bit 'pushed for time', a bit rushed - Abraham/Sasha, for instance).

Anyway - like you said Moon, it's awesome that we only have to wait just one week to find out what comes next, not three months, not six months, not two seasons, lol ... just a week. My head's swirling! :cool:

...

In terms of the chopper and those at the bridge - Jadis/Anna is a fair distance down river from the bridge, and as the chopper approaches her we get a sense of the sound/distance situation from her position to the chopper coming at her. The folks at the bridge have also just been quite near a very large - and LOUD - explosion, plus they've got a herd of walkers to deal with, PLUS they've just lost their beloved leader (so they believe, anyway). So being able to hear/see the helicopter is a stretch.

But I don't expect JDP to accept any kind of explanation, so I'm not even entering into that, but I'm putting forth my thoughts on it for everyone in the thread nonetheless.

[JDP]

In terms of the chopper and those at the bridge - Jadis/Anna is a fair distance down river from the bridge, and as the chopper approaches her we get a sense of the sound/distance situation from her position to the chopper coming at her. The folks at the bridge have also just been quite near a very large - and LOUD - explosion, plus they've got a herd of walkers to deal with, PLUS they've just lost their beloved leader (so they believe, anyway). So being able to hear/see the helicopter is a stretch.

But I don't expect JDP to accept any kind of explanation, so I'm not even entering into that, but I'm putting forth my thoughts on it for everyone in the thread nonetheless.

Because your "explanations" sometimes don't make any sense. Case in point: the above new set of unrealistic excuses. If you seriously expect that the group could possibly have missed a helicopter blatantly and loudly flying and hovering around the NEARBY VICINITY where the bridge is, you must be living in an alternative universe! You can easily spot helicopters much farther away than that. They are loud and perfectly visible even at fairly great distance. For the group not to notice this helicopter they should have been much farther away than where Jadis/Anne and Rick were. You can appreciate how close that location is to the bridge in the shot where Jadis/Anne is looking at the column of smoke coming from the burning bridge. No one but a blind and deaf person would have failed to notice a hovering helicopter from such a distance!

[Moon Knight]

MZ- don’t even argue. No point.

I had the same thought initially about the helicopter and how no one saw it, though. It did seem pretty close but with what was going on I could accept it.

I also agree about Judith and the gun. It’s a cool moment but definitely needs to be filed under the department of suspension of disbelief. The hand canon would also blow her away lol.

Btw, Michonne looks so badass as the new leader in Alexandria.

[shootemindehead]

Jesus, that was poor.

I suppose if the show takes a nosedive after this, we can just end it there.

[facestabber]

Why even argue over seeing/hearing the helicopter. We saw a glimpse of the time jump and no one had the opportunity to even discuss the helicopter. I believe the intent of the show is that everyone believes Rick died in the explosion. So even if someone saw a helicopter in the sky, if they didn't see Rick being loaded into it, it's a mute point. With The consensus that Rick is dead why consider a random helicopter swooped in for him. Whoa wait a sec, thought came mid sentence. Father G knew Jadis had a radio contact. Regardless, what would they do? Chase a helicopter of unknown origin on horseback?

My mind is on the fact Rick Grimes is alive and I get to see his story more. Expanded elsewhere. I'll take that all day every day.

[Moon Knight]

The way Rick’s story came full circle was very satisfying.

[JDP]

Why even argue over seeing/hearing the helicopter. We saw a glimpse of the time jump and no one had the opportunity to even discuss the helicopter. I believe the intent of the show is that everyone believes Rick died in the explosion. So even if someone saw a helicopter in the sky, if they didn't see Rick being loaded into it, it's a mute point. With The consensus that Rick is dead why consider a random helicopter swooped in for him. Whoa wait a sec, thought came mid sentence. Father G knew Jadis had a radio contact. Regardless, what would they do? Chase a helicopter of unknown origin on horseback?

My mind is on the fact Rick Grimes is alive and I get to see his story more. Expanded elsewhere. I'll take that all day every day.

Consider the "coincidences", though: 1- A helicopter shows up out of nowhere shortly after Rick blows up the bridge, 2- Rick's body is nowhere to be found, 3- Jadis/Anne also strangely "disappears", 4- Father Gabriel knows that Jadis/Anne has been up to some shenanigans involving some mysterious outside group that nobody knew anything about. Do you really have to be Sherlock Holmes or Lt. Columbo to be able to put two and two together and realize that there is something VERY SUSPICIOUS going on here??? All these facts warrant an investigation, no matter how long it takes to unravel the mystery. The group should not just sit idly by and let six friggin' years pass without looking into the matter, or, even worse, nobody actually noticing anything. Hopefully this is not what will happen and the "helicopter issue" will be addressed.

[DayoftheZ]

I have really enjoyed this season so far and this was a strong episode. I have a problem with Rick surviving and not coming back to the show though. I do not buy that he wouldn't do everything in his power to get back to Judith, Michonne, Darryl etc.... Unless the films follow the line of Rick trying to get home it will not make sense.

For me a more satisfying end would have been him giving his life to save the others. A true hero ending.

[shootemindehead]

I do not buy that he wouldn't do everything in his power to get back to Judith, Michonne, Darryl etc.... Unless the films follow the line of Rick trying to get home it will not make sense.

Yeh, this is what I thought with that ending. Although, it's possible Rick didn't actually make it.

The time jump was a terrible idea though and I don't think it was needed really. Just didn't really enjoy this episode at all. Found all the "wake ups" quite irritating and that ending was just...nah.

While the first half of this series has been pretty good over all, I think the show is in a terminal decline without Rick Grimes in the lead.

Shame really.

[Moon Knight]

The movie specials will be about Rick and his situation. I loved the ending as a comic book fan.

[MinionZombie]

The movie specials will be about Rick and his situation. I loved the ending as a comic book fan.

Yeah, there was a big old time jump in the comics as well, but it played out a little differently here on the show where we've kind had a medium sized one and then the big one.

The true test will be to see how the show feels without Rick in it, however we've got such a rich cast of characters and a new era in the TWD universe six years down the road - indeed, the time jump makes a lot of sense in that we don't waste any time pining over the loss of Rick Grimes, seeing characters weep and mope around and generally stay a bit static. We as an audience have been prepped for this departure for months now, so it makes the most sense to have a good episode like this which works well as a tribute to the character - his heroic effort to lead the walkers away from their civilisation - and have a clean break, to jump forward and see straight away how they've reorganised. The seeds of intent have been laid out - e.g. Michonne's charter - so we don't need to see any step-by-step enacting of that stuff, let's just dive right into the new territory. :cool:

I watched Talking Dead and I don't quite believe Gimple when he says that's the end of Rick Grimes on the TV show. I'd imagine he'll be back at some point (e.g. perhaps when it finally draws to a close), but they need to not have the audience getting distracted with expectations of a return anytime soon (I refer back to the 'clean break' mentioned above). To be honest I find his overt coyness regarding upcoming stories kinda irritating (he's been doing that shtick for years now). Yes, we get that you can't spoil anything, but stop trying to be so clever. Angela Kang doesn't try to play any games with it, she just states she can't say anything specific but offers a mild tease here or there and her infectious energy for TWD shines through - that's all you need. :)

[shootemindehead]

The movie specials will be about Rick and his situation. I loved the ending as a comic book fan.

Ummm. I'm not really that interested in one shot movies about TWD though. I just can't see the point in that. The "beauty" of 'The Walking Dead' is its ongoing saga, which is why Kirkman wrote the comic in the first place. I think one shot movies will just end up being like the X Files movies. Ok, but ultimately pointless and not as satisfying as the TV show, or at least the better episodes of the TV show.

With the departure of Lincoln, I can't help but feel that the show is on its last legs now and will limp on til everbody's interest is gone. Plus, we're getting into the whisperers storyline now and that's just going to put more people off I reckon. It was rubbish in the comic and it'll probably be even worse in the TV show.

Also, that 6 year jump? That's just...just far too much altogether. Ridiculous decision that.

[Moon Knight]

Ummm. I'm not really that interested in one shot movies about TWD though. I just can't see the point in that. The "beauty" of 'The Walking Dead' is its ongoing saga, which is why Kirkman wrote the comic in the first place. I think one shot movies will just end up being like the X Files movies. Ok, but ultimately pointless and not as satisfying as the TV show, or at least the better episodes of the TV show.

With the departure of Lincoln, I can't help but feel that the show is on its last legs now and will limp on til everbody's interest is gone. Plus, we're getting into the whisperers storyline now and that's just going to put more people off I reckon. It was rubbish in the comic and it'll probably be even worse in the TV show.

Also, that 6 year jump? That's just...just far too much altogether. Ridiculous decision that.

I think the reason for such a long time jump was to age Judith and Henry for upcoming storylines.

I’m not huge into more WD content as I believe it dilutes the series but I also didn’t want to see Rick die. The way the show is handled and promoted is all AMC though. I don’t think it’s fair to always pin everything on the show runners and creators; at least when it comes to big decisions and content. That goes for the show’s budget too.

I can see how the show can annoy people. That’s fair. Being a horror lover and comic fan I’ll alwyas be more forgiving and biased. I want it to succeed. No shame there.

[DayoftheZ]

I've no issue with the time jump at all, in fact I think it makes sense now that Rick and Karl have gone. Like MZ said we don't have to wake through the slow grieving episodes.

I just wish Rick had been given the Hero's death the character deserved. I just don't see a way Rick can ever come back to the walking dead. He would not stay way from his family for Six years.

I don't like the idea of Gimbles expanded universe at all. End FTWD and concentrate on the main show.

[bassman]

i enjoyed most of the callbacks to Darabont’s Pilot episode. But that was more of a fond memory of the show at its best, I suppose. Other than that, I wasn’t all that fussed about this episode. I knew he was going to continue on, but it would have been best to just kill off Rick once and for all.

I maintain that the show wrapped up into a good series finale last year. Even that was stretching it, but it felt like a good series finale for Rick and Carl. The best it could be at that point, anyway.

[MinionZombie]

With all this talk about Rick it's easy to overlook something - the RV that Jadis/Anne was driving is the same RV that Tara and Heath were driving in season 6 when they went off on their supply run (the same run that saw Heath and the RV disappear). So I guess we have an answer as to where Heath went now - wherever Rick is being taken?

[Moon Knight]

With all this talk about Rick it's easy to overlook something - the RV that Jadis/Anne was driving is the same RV that Tara and Heath were driving in season 6 when they went off on their supply run (the same run that saw Heath and the RV disappear). So I guess we have an answer as to where Heath went now - wherever Rick is being taken?

Yeah and I believe Angela Kang already confirmed Heath was traded by Jadis. Pretty disappointing haha.

[MinionZombie]

Yeah and I believe Angela Kang already confirmed Heath was traded by Jadis. Pretty disappointing haha.

It's good that they've got it as part of the story, though. There's various outside events and pressures that the writers just have to deal with and have no control over, so it's good to see they've found a way of explaining Heath's disappearance.

Oddly enough, I seem to recall folks here on HPOTD wanting a character to 'just disappear', not get a featured send-off, and be a mystery.

[Moon Knight]

It's good that they've got it as part of the story, though. There's various outside events and pressures that the writers just have to deal with and have no control over, so it's good to see they've found a way of explaining Heath's disappearance.

Oddly enough, I seem to recall folks here on HPOTD wanting a character to 'just disappear', not get a featured send-off, and be a mystery.

What really annoyed me though is the fact that Tara or no one else ever bothered to asked about him. Weird.

[MinionZombie]

What really annoyed me though is the fact that Tara or no one else ever bothered to asked about him. Weird.

Mmmm ... one of those things that got lost in the shuffle during Gimple's era. For all the time spent on certain things, other little things got completely forgotten about. Even just a few lines to address that she/they had been looking but couldn't turn anything up. Of course, the behind the scenes reality was that he had acting gigs elsewhere and wasn't being properly utilised on the show, while she was heavily pregnant and needed time away to give birth and recuperate ... even still, in 7B there should have been some sort of addressing of that mystery.

[DayoftheZ]

Mmmm ... one of those things that got lost in the shuffle during Gimple's era. For all the time spent on certain things, other little things got completely forgotten about. Even just a few lines to address that she/they had been looking but couldn't turn anything up. Of course, the behind the scenes reality was that he had acting gigs elsewhere and wasn't being properly utilised on the show, while she was heavily pregnant and needed time away to give birth and recuperate ... even still, in 7B there should have been some sort of addressing of that mystery.

That was me. I always loved that Morales and family drove off in series on never to be seen again so I was a bid peeved that they brought him back as Negans solider.

I think the problem with Heath was he just vanished. Now we have Heath, Dwight and Rick all presumably alive and out there unexplained. In addition to this Morgan had gone over to Fear.

What I don't like is that now I have no choice but to watch Rick's films because I need closure, if I had the choice I would prefer to just stick to the main show.

All that said I am really excited for the next episode now.