Corona Virus

[Neil]

Why am I constantly thinking of this?

Ch7N7KCn778

[EvilNed]

Hasn't it got like a lower lethality than the common flu? What's all the fuss.

[blind2d]

Hasn't it got like a lower lethality than the common flu? What's all the fuss.

My thoughts exactly.

[Neil]

The next week or two is going to be telling... ie: How quickly it's spreading.

The Japanese cruise ship and the taxi driver are alarming. ie: Implying it spreads easily :/

[Moon Knight]

Scary stuff regardless.

[MinionZombie]

Scary stuff regardless.

And it should be getting taken as seriously as it is. With all our skills and resources and technology as a species this is exactly what we should be doing - stopping the spread of viruses. Sure, we've had these things before and we'll have them again, but what is being done is exactly what should be getting done.

Plus, these situations also help to develop understanding of how viruses spread and how they can be effectively contained - so, perhaps, if/when a really major virus comes along we'll be able to deal with it properly. Government agencies, at least ... because as any cold & flu season proves, the general public are wretched when it comes to keeping their bugs to themselves - they insist on coughing unguarded or into their hands (instead of into the crook of their arm), they wipe snotty/coughed on hands all over public surfaces (e.g. hand rails), refuse to use their sick days ('cos they're saving them for healthy days so they can bunk off work), and constantly go about their normal daily business while coughing/sneezing/snotting everywhere (e.g. going to the hair dresser, going to the shops etc).

[Neil]

The moment it starts growing exponentially in a number of countries, with significant numbers, I think the genie can be considered out of the bottle then, and it only being a matter of time until wide spread contamination.

If it can be contained now, that's the main hope!

FYI!

qgylp3Td1Bw

[Neil]

So how are you USA folks feeling about the Covid-19 then? Not too bothered, or watching carefully?

[blind2d]

So how are you USA folks feeling about the Covid-19 then? Not too bothered, or watching carefully?

Personally Neil, I'm much more concerned about the environment, but yeah, I've heard of it. *shrug*

[MinionZombie]

Folks should be concerned, and folks should be a damn sight more considerate of their fellow human beings. As the old saying goes - "coughs and sneezes spread diseases" - and there's too many grotty people about, open-mouthed coughing all over the shop like toddlers, wiping snotty fingers all over public surfaces (e.g. hand rails, subway straps etc), not using sick days for their intended purpose, not cancelling unimportant appointments or trips despite dribbling virulent goo everywhere.

No wonder the humble cold and/or flu gets around so easily. The number of times I've seen people utterly full of cold sitting in, for instance, the barber shop or walking around a supermarket ... it's totally inconsiderate.

Complacency does a great deal to spread viruses, and the more a virus spreads the more likely it is it'll mutate (and quite possibly get even worse).

We've already seen a negative financial reaction linked to the virus, and think of the impact on all the industries that rely on the movement of people and the economic impact that then entails.

We've got all this knowledge about the spread of viruses, all this capability to do the best we can to halt their spread, yet the general sense of complacency is just making it worse.

[Neil]

With Italy on lockdown, a neighbour started singing...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDu_kLJ-5Mk

The human spirit!

[blind2d]

I mean if we're all going to die, at least we can go out singing. Like Life of Brian. Best movie ever made.

[EvilNed]

I mean if we're all going to die, at least we can go out singing. Like Life of Brian. Best movie ever made.

Really? I didn't figure it's a movie you liked.

[blind2d]

Really? I didn't figure it's a movie you liked.

Why wouldn't I like it? It's hilarious! :D

[kidgloves]

I'm on holiday in Key West at the moment and it's empty especially being spring break. When I flew in last week the border patrol was still fingerprinting everyone without wiping anything down. No screening outside of where you were traveling from

[MinionZombie]

I'm on holiday in Key West at the moment and it's empty especially being spring break. When I flew in last week the border patrol was still fingerprinting everyone without wiping anything down. No screening outside of where you were traveling from

So what happens with you flying back to the UK? Will you get stuck out there? What happens if the UK shuts down flights from the US like the US are doing with flights from the UK on Monday?

Must be weird places being generally kinda empty. I saw a video showing shots from around various tourist hotspots and they're almost like ghost towns.

[kidgloves]

The US government have said they are letting people return home. I'm staying with friends so a delay would actually be welcome. I don't want to come back to the bullshit I'm witnessing.

[Moon Knight]

Yeah hope everyone here and their loved ones stay safe.

[Neil]

For people who get CV19 and then recover, the next 3-4 months could be a bonus for them. ie: If they can go on holiday locations will be quiet. But then no entertainment/restaurants...

[EvilNed]

My friend works in China (Shanghai), so the Corona panic has already come and gone - somewhat. She was in quarantine for 14 days, isolated in our compound. Stores and 7-Elevens were still open, tho.

Now, in the aftermath, they have to take their temperature whenever they enter a restaurant and their presence is "logged". If anyone has a fever, it's thus easy to whoever they may have had contact with at any given location.

[Neil]

My friend works in China (Shanghai), so the Corona panic has already come and gone - somewhat. She was in quarantine for 14 days, isolated in our compound. Stores and 7-Elevens were still open, tho.

Now, in the aftermath, they have to take their temperature whenever they enter a restaurant and their presence is "logged". If anyone has a fever, it's thus easy to whoever they may have had contact with at any given location.

Problem is when they turn off the brakes and let society start functioning normally again. ie: Will infections zoom up again?!

[kidgloves]

For people who get CV19 and then recover, the next 3-4 months could be a bonus for them. ie: If they can go on holiday locations will be quiet. But then no entertainment/restaurants...

I've just come back from 2 weeks holiday in the States and I had a great time but I was staying with friends. Speaking to normal tourists on the flight home last night, it is no fun at all as everything is closing/closed. I flew from Miami and you couldn't stay in a hotel that night and onwards unless you were a first responder etc.

[JDP]

Around here things are starting to look like a Communist state: long lines of people to get into supermarkets, limited amount of things you can buy per person. The public frenzy has led to people buying supplies like crazy, forcing such measures into place. The streets have been basically deserted most of the day, and that was already without the curfews being in place. It's almost like being in... a zombie movie!

[MinionZombie]

kidgloves - glad you're back home and weren't too caught up in it all. Did you get any kind of checks on the way in? I heard the other day that at Heathrow people were just coming in from flights and going straight through as normal - it makes you wonder what on earth at the people in charge of Heathrow even doing? Picking their navels?

We're just gone into lockdown here in the UK for the next three weeks. I understand the need to 'suffocate' the virus and really hack it off at the knees - there's no reason, with all of our collective knowledge and abilities and technology as a species, to not do all that we can to stop it from becoming a bigger (or even major) problem - but it's also infuriating to see idiots saying "ah, fuck it" and going against all recommendations. The longer those dopes piss about the longer we all have to continue biting the shit sandwich. This affects everyone, so assholes won't be tolerated, and that's why we get lockdowns.

"Ooh, the pubs are shutting? Better haul ass down there to join hundreds of other sweaty chumps to stand cheek by jowl guzzling from hastily washed glasses!" :rolleyes:

[bassman]

Strange times! I hope everyone here is being safe at home!

Unfortunately my local government is only seeing the economical side of the crisis and has yet to close nonessential business, so this week I had to make the tough decision to stay home, like many people, potentially losing the job when this is all over.

The whole world is going to be in economic trouble after this, but it’s just insane to keep people out on the streets while hospitals are overloaded.

[kidgloves]

There was a prepared speech read by the captain, who was genuinely emotional, when we landed with standard information. They were handing out leaflets at Heathrow and posters up. There was no wiping down if the automatic passport readers that I saw though. No checks whatsoever

[MinionZombie]

I think, financially, there'll probably just have to be a worldwide agreement to say "Let's just forget the last [x] weeks/months, yeah? Pick up where we left off? Yeah."

I see the limit for contactless payments is rising from £30 to £45 at the start of April, to help facilitate less touching when buying food (i.e. cash or the buttons when entering your PIN).

[blind2d]

I think, financially, there'll probably just have to be a worldwide agreement to say "Let's just forget the last [x] weeks/months, yeah? Pick up where we left off? Yeah."

I see the limit for contactless payments is rising from £30 to £45 at the start of April, to help facilitate less touching when buying food (i.e. cash or the buttons when entering your PIN).

I mean, we could just abolish money. :/

[EvilNed]

Strange times! I hope everyone here is being safe at home!

Unfortunately my local government is only seeing the economical side of the crisis and has yet to close nonessential business, so this week I had to make the tough decision to stay home, like many people, potentially losing the job when this is all over.

The whole world is going to be in economic trouble after this, but it’s just insane to keep people out on the streets while hospitals are overloaded.

In Sweden work places, schools and restaurants are still open, but people are encouraged to stay at home if possible. Most offices are closed, with people working form home. I think this is the best approach, because the end goal is to form a horde immunity, but to do so at an acceptable pace. Not too quick, as that would overflow the hospitals with sick people, but not too slow because that would mean months and months of quarantine and essentially no longer a functioning society.

Closing schools is not as effective as people think, as the kids don't go away. They will instead linger elsewhere. You can't expect teenagers to stay indoors for weeks on end - they won't. And unless you're a dictatorship like China, you can't enforce it either...

[bassman]

In Sweden work places, schools and restaurants are still open, but people are encouraged to stay at home if possible. Most offices are closed, with people working form home. I think this is the best approach, because the end goal is to form a horde immunity, but to do so at an acceptable pace. Not too quick, as that would overflow the hospitals with sick people, but not too slow because that would mean months and months of quarantine and essentially no longer a functioning society.

Closing schools is not as effective as people think, as the kids don't go away. They will instead linger elsewhere. You can't expect teenagers to stay indoors for weeks on end - they won't. And unless you're a dictatorship like China, you can't enforce it either...

That’s been a huge problem here in the states once this all started. All schools are closed and a lot of the state’s adults are staying home, but there are still many people laughing it off and trying to live their normal lives. The US government has left the closings up to the decision of each individual state, my state is refusing to lock people down at home, so now it’s all the way down to individual counties and even very small cities having to take their own actions and release “shelter in place” orders in their own small areas.

[Neil]

That’s been a huge problem here in the states once this all started. All schools are closed and a lot of the state’s adults are staying home, but there are still many people laughing it off and trying to live their normal lives. The US government has left the closings up to the decision of each individual state, my state is refusing to lock people down at home, so now it’s all the way down to individual counties and even very small cities having to take their own actions and release “shelter in place” orders in their own small areas.

The rate of new infections in the US is going up at a high rate! Could overtake Italy around the weekend. And with such a quick increase the death rate is masked, as it seems to take folks two or so weeks to die. So prepare for some scary death increase sometime next week?

[EvilNed]

The rate of new infections in the US is going up at a high rate! Could overtake Italy around the weekend. And with such a quick increase the death rate is masked, as it seems to take folks two or so weeks to die. So prepare for some scary death increase sometime next week?

Looks like it. Italy is probably close to it's peak right about now.

Sweden is coming along fairly well actually... In fact I know quite a few who've had it and recovered by now. Life is pretty close to business as usual, at least compared to most other countries out there in the media - Italy, Spain, US, China.

[bassman]

My local governments are finally putting the shelter order in place. The final decisions on school closings are expected today, likely closing schools for the rest of the year. Seems like they waited way too long, but at least it’s a start.

I’m seeing a lot of people and businesses doing things to step up, including free deliveries and bill payment suspensions. Not to mention particular groups that are putting themselves in danger and going out to help those in need. Even if on a smaller scale, it’s extremely relieving to see how people can pull together if needed. It should be that way at ALL times, but it’s still heartwarming and helps restore a bit of faith in people, which we don’t see enough of these days...

[blind2d]

Looking forward to all the organized strikes coming up. :D

[bassman]

So, for the stateside follks....how do you feel about Trump leaving it up to local governments to release shelter-in-place orders? Not all areas are equally affected, but certain areas are hit hard and their local governments aren’t doing anything about it. For example, my state of Georgia. Hospitals are already beyond capacity, yet the governor refuses to issue a state-wide order. Likely due to Trump’s ridiculous timeline of things being back to normal within two weeks.

So because of this stupidity, people are having to choose between the safety of themselves and their loved ones, or go to work anyway just to keep their position. I made the decision last week, and it’s family and health full-stop, but it’s still a very bad situation for worker’s income and future. I know some guys that are terrified and want to stay home for their family’s safety, yet they don’t have the minor monetary luxury of being able to make the decision themselves.

[MinionZombie]

So, for the stateside follks....how do you feel about Trump leaving it up to local governments to release shelter-in-place orders? Not all areas are equally affected, but certain areas are hit hard and their local governments aren’t doing anything about it. For example, my state of Georgia. Hospitals are already beyond capacity, yet the governor refuses to issue a state-wide order. Likely due to Trump’s ridiculous timeline of things being back to normal within two weeks.

So because of this stupidity, people are having to choose between the safety of themselves and their loved ones, or go to work anyway just to keep their position. I made the decision last week, and it’s family and health full-stop, but it’s still a very bad situation for worker’s income and future. I know some guys that are terrified and want to stay home for their family’s safety, yet they don’t have the minor monetary luxury of being able to make the decision themselves.

In this instance, surely it should be a nation-wide decision? Having pockets all over the place doing different things flies totally in the face of the intentions of a lockdown.

[bassman]

In this instance, surely it should be a nation-wide decision? Having pockets all over the place doing different things flies totally in the face of the intentions of a lockdown.

Precisely. Officials continue to say they’re running two parallel tracks: 1st is safety and health, 2nd is the economy. However, it’s more and more looking like the economy is taking precedence over health and safety. Of course the economic troubles will be around for a good while and that IS an issue, but it’s becoming more and more clear that’s their main priority rather than containment and safety.

However, I will say that on last night’s address to the nation, the big orange muppet seemed to be listening more to health professionals and might now be considering more action to contain the spread, saying he’ll make more decisions based on their recommendations on Monday or Tuesday. Well, just about ALL the health professionals are calling for the lockdown now, so who knows? Maybe.

[sandrock74]

I live in Michigan and while the governor called for a state lockdown for 3 weeks, only essential businesses can stay open to operate at minimum capacity with a skeleton crew. My work decided to lie by claiming we're "essential" (we're SO not essential) and so we are operating 24/7 with mandatory overtime, business as usual before the state lockdown. I work in the shipping department and we're shipping orders out to closed businesses!

As long as businesses get to decide if they are "essential", this virus will have easy avenues to spread.

[Neil]

So, for the stateside follks....how do you feel about Trump leaving it up to local governments to release shelter-in-place orders? Not all areas are equally affected, but certain areas are hit hard and their local governments aren’t doing anything about it. For example, my state of Georgia. Hospitals are already beyond capacity, yet the governor refuses to issue a state-wide order. Likely due to Trump’s ridiculous timeline of things being back to normal within two weeks.

So because of this stupidity, people are having to choose between the safety of themselves and their loved ones, or go to work anyway just to keep their position. I made the decision last week, and it’s family and health full-stop, but it’s still a very bad situation for worker’s income and future. I know some guys that are terrified and want to stay home for their family’s safety, yet they don’t have the minor monetary luxury of being able to make the decision themselves.

The US is a huge country, so surely it makes sense that different counties might need different approaches at different times?

I agree Trump's seeming rather optimistic about "back to normal within two weeks" isn't productive, but if it's interpreted as some states being "normal"(ish)?

[MinionZombie]

The US is a huge country, so surely it makes sense that different counties might need different approaches at different times?

I agree Trump's seeming rather optimistic about "back to normal within two weeks" isn't productive, but if it's interpreted as some states being "normal"(ish)?

A virus doesn't give a stuff about counties or county borders - it doesn't give a stuff about countries - so a half-assed, jumbled, 'partial lockdown' within a nation (no matter what size) is pretty friggin' pointless and defeats the whole purpose.

While major metropolitian areas like New York or California, with their high population densities (like London and the surrounding area), are obviously the most important areas, and the risk of infection is lower in lower density areas, you need a coordinated and consistent approach.

[EvilNed]

A virus doesn't give a stuff about counties or county borders - it doesn't give a stuff about countries - so a half-assed, jumbled, 'partial lockdown' within a nation (no matter what size) is pretty friggin' pointless and defeats the whole purpose.

While major metropolitian areas like New York or California, with their high population densities (like London and the surrounding area), are obviously the most important areas, and the risk of infection is lower in lower density areas, you need a coordinated and consistent approach.

I'm not sure I agree with this. I think it's fair to treat different places of a country differently, depending on the local situation.
However you cannot have a quarantine in place in one spot and not have it in others - because people will just go from the one place to the other bringing the disease with them. That's what happened in Italy.

There's no exact science to this and only time will tell what strategies were the best or not. But we're only at the beginning of this, and over the course of the coming year I don't think there'll be that big of a difference in the way various countries will have responded.

[ProfessorChaos]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0-2XxgHIXk

sadly, my job is one that is primarily focused on public safety, so i've had to continue working, and my wife (though she only works two days a week) works in the payroll department for an essential business so we can't really follow this guy's advice. there are no reported cases in any of the handful of counties near where i live, but in a neighboring state right across the river it's starting to show up.

stay safe and stay sane, my friends. don't be one of those assholes who hoards toilet paper and basic stuff that everyone else needs just as bad as you do.

[Moon Knight]

Connecticut isn't as bad as our neighbor NY but it's getting up there. TP is nowhere to be found and I can't leave the apartment without a mask and gloves. Truly feels like The Walking Dead whenever we need supplies.

[JDP]

Coronavirus...

https://i.imgflip.com/1s1m0h.gif (https://imgflip.com/gif/1s1m0h)

[Neil]

A virus doesn't give a stuff about counties or county borders - it doesn't give a stuff about countries - so a half-assed, jumbled, 'partial lockdown' within a nation (no matter what size) is pretty friggin' pointless and defeats the whole purpose.

If we compare Wisconsin to New York, do you think they need the same approach, at the same time? If New York is locked down, do you think it makes sense for Wisconsin to be locked down as well? Different states need different action at different times surely?

[kidgloves]

Well, Im a key worker now in the role of delivering food to people and the love, respect and gratitude is quite overwhelming.
Lets just hope people remember when its all over

of all the info i've read and videos i've watched, this info has stuck the best and help me understand the hows, whys etc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4J0d59dd-qM

[Neil]

Well, Im a key worker now in the role of delivering food to people and the love, respect and gratitude is quite overwhelming.
Lets just hope people remember when its all over

Yeh, my son works part time in a supermarket, and some old gentlemen came up to personally thank him for working in the store. ie: To keep the shelves full etc. He was quite touched by it!

[bassman]

If we compare Wisconsin to New York, do you think they need the same approach, at the same time? If New York is locked down, do you think it makes sense for Wisconsin to be locked down as well? Different states need different action at different times surely?

Geographically, yes, it would make sense to tackle the virus area-by-area, but as MZ mentioned, most people won’t follow those rules and it spreads anyway. All medical professionals are warning that nearly every state will be in the same position as New York within the coming weeks. NY is just an example or warning for the rest of the country. We’ve gotten to the point that states are setting up checkpoints on their borders and threatening legal action to any travelers from the states that are hit hard at this moment.

At this moment, certain cities are more affected than others, but doctors are saying each an every city will get their NY crisis soon enough. As MZ said, you can’t stop a viral spread with these imaginary state lines.

On a lighter note: It’s amazing how accurate Demolition Man predicted our futures. There’s no toilet paper, going to Taco Bell is a big deal, people refrain from physical contact because of disease, and Wesley Snipes has been let out of prison.:p Saw this on a meme that I couldn’t share here, but it made me laugh.

[MinionZombie]

On a lighter note: It’s amazing how accurate Demolition Man predicted our futures. There’s no toilet paper, going to Taco Bell is a big deal, people refrain from physical contact because of disease, and Wesley Snipes has been let out of prison.:p Saw this on a meme that I couldn’t share here, but it made me laugh.

This one?

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/001/808/629/a77.jpg

Another one I liked was this:

https://images7.memedroid.com/images/UPLOADED781/5e70f48bd4ae7.jpeg

[bassman]

:) That’s the one. Pretty cool poster art, actually...

[ProfessorChaos]

well, this nasty shit has now made it out to the sticks, as it's in my county and the one to the north. no word on who the afflicted is or what their profession is, but the person from my county who tested positive is supposedly quarantined at home.

the case from the county to the north of me is a bit more alarming, though, as this person allegedly works at a convenience store and has been in contact with dozens, if not a couple hundred, different people in the last week.

while i'm not living in fear, i am taking every precaution i can and will admit that i am a bit worried for myself and my wife and children, but am even more concerned for my father, who has survived two bouts with cancer over the last five years, and my elderly grandmothers, both of which are in their late 80s.

damn, i wish they would get a bit more serious about this shit and just force a temporary lockdown for a couple of weeks, and say to hell with the stupid economy...good times. stay safe and sanitary, my brothers and sisters.

[Neil]

Hope Boris recovers swiftly :/

[bassman]

Hope Boris recovers swiftly :/

I saw on the news this morning that he was released from the ICU? That’s certainly good news.

Because of Trump’s insistence on “opening up” the economy, some employers are starting to ignore the SiP orders and are ordering workers to return. My employer being one of them. We make recreational outdoor games and promotional materials. Nothing at ALL essential, yet the owner feels that the stay at home orders don’t apply to us simply because he’s made a handful of face shields with spare time and posted about it online. Nothing official, no contract, no real production, just a few Facebook videos of a handful of shields and THAT makes it essential?!?

On top of that, he also said on the Facebook post: “any local nurses or doctors swing by our shop to pick them up!”. Absolutely NO risk involved with that! :rolleyes:

So now I’ve got the weekend to decide to either go back and risk my family members, or deny the request and lose my job. It’s stupid shit like this that continues the spread...

[JDP]

https://media.makeameme.org/created/moronavirus-d0381fd2a6.jpg

[MinionZombie]

Damn, bassman - that's a shitty situation. :(

Either way I hope you and yours will be safe - and indeed to all HPOTD'ers.

[ProfessorChaos]

there are so many businesses in my area that are trying to justify staying open. a fucking antique store that sells overpriced bread mixes and high-dollar jellies and jams, along with farm-fresh eggs has got the okay to stay open, with even our mayor trying to say they are "essential"....i understand that lots of businesses and people are hurting, but that kind of hubris really irks the fuck out of me.

meanwhile, my job has decided to put us on rotating shifts, so i am on-call, ready, rested, and sober chilling at the house next week, then reporting for normal duty the following week. this will continue "indefinitely" they are saying. my state is under "shelter in place" orders until the end of the month, so it might be a few weeks, or if the virus continues to spread it could be a few months. fortunately, i will continue to be paid my full salary for the duration, so no complaints here i suppose. i'm actually a bit giddy about it, to be honest, but i do feel a bit guilty knowing many out there are having a very rough time with all of this.

[MinionZombie]

Bassman - if the boss gets shitty about anything, they appear to be keen on their social media appearance (that half-assed 'look, I made some masks, how great am I?' schtick), but they wouldn't look too good sacking people who are trying to abide by the rules to keep their family safe and well (perhaps they need to be reminded of that?) - and for a non-essential business, too, just smacks of carelessness. Sounds as if they're not too fussed about social distancing and thinking through how to best keep people spread apart and surfaces clean, either.

[shootemindehead]

I saw on the news this morning that he was released from the ICU? That’s certainly good news.

Because of Trump’s insistence on “opening up” the economy, some employers are starting to ignore the SiP orders and are ordering workers to return. My employer being one of them. We make recreational outdoor games and promotional materials. Nothing at ALL essential, yet the owner feels that the stay at home orders don’t apply to us simply because he’s made a handful of face shields with spare time and posted about it online. Nothing official, no contract, no real production, just a few Facebook videos of a handful of shields and THAT makes it essential?!?

On top of that, he also said on the Facebook post: “any local nurses or doctors swing by our shop to pick them up!”. Absolutely NO risk involved with that! :rolleyes:

So now I’ve got the weekend to decide to either go back and risk my family members, or deny the request and lose my job. It’s stupid shit like this that continues the spread...


Your employer sounds like an arse Bassy.

[sandrock74]

There's a statewide shut down here and my work is still open and operating 24/7 because they classified themselves as "essential". We produce plastic pipes for plumbing.

[Neil]

So, I wonder if the global community will do the sensible thing, and hold China and the WHO accountable for their handling of the earlier stages of this pandemic? ie: Their lies/poor information?

[EvilNed]

So, I wonder if the global community will do the sensible thing, and hold China and the WHO accountable for their handling of the earlier stages of this pandemic? ie: Their lies/poor information?

Exactly what do you think China and WHO have done wrong..?

[shootemindehead]

Why the WHO?

[bassman]

I believe he could be referring to the news that China and the WHO allegedly downplayed the severity. It’s all just finger pointing and blame in a time when it doesn’t matter and shouldn’t be happening. Deal with the problem at hand first, then launch the investigations when it’s under control.

Update on my non essential employer....I haven’t been forced to return just yet, but I’m having to call literally every day to plead my case. Each day, he gives me one more day. Rinse and repeat. :|

[shootemindehead]

Alleged by whom? Donald Trump?

I'd take anything that orange gobshite says with a huge pinch of salt. Especially when he's looking for someone else to blame for his own handling of the Covid 19 problem in America. In a time where everyone should be trying to come together to fight a common problem, he's looking to apportion blame around in an effort to make himself look better. School yard gibberish of the lowest level.

Re: your employer Bassy, I just don't know what to say, other than try to get a different job when all of this is over, which isn't much help I know. But you shouldn't have to be giving reasons to isolate, given everything that's going on.

[EvilNed]

I don't agree that China has downplayed the severity. They seem to have been pretty open about it from the start. I do not however believe that news of the Virus spread from local level all the way to the top very quickly however. It's never pleasant to tell your boss bad news, even less so in dictatorships.

I don't understand at all what WHO has done wrong. Downplayed the severity? Well, to be fair - NO country has managed to handle this outbreak quite as well as China, and that's because they simply walled people up in their homes. But China isn't North Korea, there are thousands of foreigners and journalists living there. News has been coming in and out steadily.

[bassman]

Re: your employer Bassy, I just don't know what to say, other than try to get a different job when all of this is over, which isn't much help I know. But you shouldn't have to be giving reasons to isolate, given everything that's going on.

Indeed. The problem is, I love the job! I stopped working in the movie/tv industry for this job. I think that says a lot. The job and coworkers are fantastic, I’ve never liked a job more. It’s just that the owner is being stupid, but luckily he doesn’t run the actual operation. I’m trying to give him the benefit of the doubt because he obviously has lots of concerns and financial difficulties with this virus, just like everyone, but he’s not exactly being the most humane person about it. I’m fairly certain he has a “nasal problem” as well, so I know that doesn’t help!

As for the covid-19 blaming we’ve been discussing, we all know that there will be investigations for years to come, so I hope Trump and company can put this stuff aside and deal with the real problem right now. People STILL talk about the conspiracy theories and 9/11 reports, so you know we’ll likely be hearing the same kind of stuff until we all leave this world...

[shootemindehead]

I don't agree that China has downplayed the severity. They seem to have been pretty open about it from the start. I do not however believe that news of the Virus spread from local level all the way to the top very quickly however. It's never pleasant to tell your boss bad news, even less so in dictatorships.

I don't understand at all what WHO has done wrong. Downplayed the severity? Well, to be fair - NO country has managed to handle this outbreak quite as well as China, and that's because they simply walled people up in their homes. But China isn't North Korea, there are thousands of foreigners and journalists living there. News has been coming in and out steadily.

There is some question on the validity of China's numbers. But those questions are usually being put forward by folk who wouldn't be that well disposed to that country in the first place. So caveat emptor.

As for the WHO, I don't know what there is to be honestly criticised there. Not in any genuine terms anyway. They've put out some conflicting info re: masks and whatnot. But they're certainly not alone where bits of confusion are concerned. They could have been better in some areas, but they're facing something that's not been seen since the end of the First World War. I wouldn't expect them to have all the answers so quickly.

As for Trump's gibberish, he seems to be blaming the WHO for being "too China centric", which is bollocks talk of the lowest kind. Of course they're going to focus on China a lot. It's where the bloody thing originated from and where the primary lessons are to be learned. It would be foolish of them not to put the focus on China.

His comments and subsequent threats are moronic and unhelpful. But par the course for him and this version of the Republican party, which frankly has been a disaster since the 2000's.

- - - Updated - - -


Indeed. The problem is, I love the job! I stopped working in the movie/tv industry for this job. I think that says a lot. The job and coworkers are fantastic, I’ve never liked a job more. It’s just that the owner is being stupid, but luckily he doesn’t run the actual operation. I’m trying to give him the benefit of the doubt because he obviously has lots of concerns and financial difficulties with this virus, just like everyone, but he’s not exactly being the most humane person about it. I’m fairly certain he has a “nasal problem” as well, so I know that doesn’t help!


Aye, I recall you saying you were happy when you got the job. But no job is worth taking the risks that this virus presents. If you caught off someone and then passed it on to an elderly relative (and by "elderly" I'm talking 60+), you'd never forgive yourself.

I understand the owners financial concerns, but that's a big boat he's in and its full of people with same worries. Perhaps there's a way to stagger the number of people that go into the office/place of work? One week in/one week off? Limit the numbers in there? And observe the social distance requirements? I don't know.

But just nagging people isn't on.

[MinionZombie]

There was an issue with China attempting to silence the doctor who tried to warn the world early on. He's now dead, having contracted the virus. Not a great look for China, and certainly a very bad thing to do anyway. They no doubt cracked down hard when there was no other option (something they'd be easily capable of doing considering their government and culture), but yeah, not off to a good start:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Wenliang

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/20/chinese-inquiry-exonerates-coronavirus-whistleblower-doctor-li-wenliang

https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-rescinds-penalty-for-late-doctor-who-warned-about-coronavirus-11584637545

And it seems it wasn't just the one doctor attempting to warn people (in December 2019) who was blocked by the government:
https://www.businessinsider.com/wuhan-doctor-chinese-sounded-alarm-coronavirus-outbreak-december-2020-3?r=US&IR=T

...

There'll absolutely need to be a full analysis of this whole thing, including where it came from and how it came to be, plus a full timeline of events and decisions taken across the globe, but also in terms of how every government across the world made wrong decisions. Some of the lack of decision making I was surprised by, as various recommendations were already available here in the UK (for example) in a document about Pandemic preparedness (that is/was freely available for any member of the public to download - as I did several years ago in order to do research for a script) ... and other decisions were just silly (e.g. telling people to all buy their food via online supermarket services even though, quite obviously, they wouldn't have had the capacity to deal with it).

Fines for people taking the piss and ignoring guidelines should also be increased (some of the fines I've seen dished out have been about as much as a normal parking ticket, even less), and I hope these morons doing things like trying to spread fear by, for instance, doing stupid shit on social media (like licking their hands and wiping it on food and surfaces while talking about Coronavirus) get a bloody good strike against them and even a criminal record. Idiotic actions should have serious consequences.

I've said it before, but this whole thing - in addition to being a huge problem - is also a huge opportunity to learn. No doubt there'll be another pandemic in the future, although hopefully it'd be a very long way away, and hopefully we can mitigate it far quicker and more effectively than we've managed thus far with Covid-19. This pandemic is an active training ground in how to deal with this very scenario.

[Neil]

Exactly what do you think China and WHO have done wrong..?
Some points:- The WHO praised China for being "transparent", while China in fact actively covered up the early stages of the out break, with numerous of their own doctors (whistle blowers) being shut down. Some of the Chinese doctors have now seemingly "disappeared".
The WHO, while praising China, happily ignores China is one of the most oppressive inhumane regimes in the world.
The WHO in the middle of January were singing China's praise, and telling the world there was no evidence of person to person infection. Are we to believe China didn't know there was person to person transfer in the middle of January? Meanwhile the WHO had been told by Taiwan (one of the first countries to be hit) in December they had proof of person to person infection. But the WHO will not acknowledge the existance of Taiwan (because of China?). Note: Taiwan have a history of detecting and identifying and handling diseases coming out of China, so why do the WHO refuse to acknowledge/listen to them? Why won't the WHO even allow Taiwan to have a seat?
The WHO said travel bans were not wise, when clearly they were. Italy suffered heavily due to the direct flights from Wuhan. The WHO should have told countries to close down flights sooner. Note: Trump of course shut down flights very early, and was lambasted by the press at the time for doing so because the WHO said it was not necessary.
More recently the WHO have welcomed China reopening their wet markets, which have historically delivered numerous plagues to the planet, and now they're open again, risking delivering more.
Do you believe the figures (& information) reported from China are real? Me neither. Why don't the WHO question them?

In summary, China covered up/lied about the early stages of the infection and they silenced whistle blowers. The WHO played along, and made poor decisions. They are seemingly partisan towards China. Surely these are significant failings/issues?

Ultimately:- The WHO needs reforming.
China needs to be held accountable

ps1: Let's remember the WHO only a few years ago wanted to make Robert Mugabe a "goodwill ambassador", ignoring his track record of human rights violations.
ps2: Nice fact about Taiwan - Trump is the first president to have spoken to (recognise them) in something like 40yrs... ie: Rightly ignoring China's oppression of them.

[EvilNed]

Fair enough, they are good points.

I will however argue that I do believe China reports truthfully about their figures. But they have completely different methods available to them to shut a virus like this down. They are only reporting confirmed cases, I'm sure they know very well there are more. But that is appliceable to any country.

I have friends who work in Shanghai. Shanghai was completely shut down for a few weeks, despite the fact that the virus never reached them in any great capacity. The methods adopted by the Chinese regime have been draconian, but efficient.

[Neil]

Fair enough, they are good points.

I will however argue that I do believe China reports truthfully about their figures. But they have completely different methods available to them to shut a virus like this down. They are only reporting confirmed cases, I'm sure they know very well there are more. But that is appliceable to any country.

I have friends who work in Shanghai. Shanghai was completely shut down for a few weeks, despite the fact that the virus never reached them in any great capacity. The methods adopted by the Chinese regime have been draconian, but efficient.

And on a side note, let's keep in mind how endemically racist (& supremacist) China is. But where is the WHO's condemnation of this? A horrific social credit system, ethnic clensing and let's not get into forced organ harvesting. The WHO? Crickets!

https://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/151209103057-star-wars-china-racism-poster-full-169.jpg

[EvilNed]

The US can be blamed for running concentration camps, toppling democractically elected leaders and international terrorism. WHO doesn't condemn the US either, so what's the point?

[shootemindehead]

Some points:- The WHO praised China for being "transparent", while China in fact actively covered up the early stages of the out break, with numerous of their own doctors (whistle blowers) being shut down. Some of the Chinese doctors have now seemingly "disappeared".
The WHO, while praising China, happily ignores China is one of the most oppressive inhumane regimes in the world.
The WHO in the middle of January were singing China's praise, and telling the world there was no evidence of person to person infection. Are we to believe China didn't know there was person to person transfer in the middle of January? Meanwhile the WHO had been told by Taiwan (one of the first countries to be hit) in December they had proof of person to person infection. But the WHO will not acknowledge the existance of Taiwan (because of China?). Note: Taiwan have a history of detecting and identifying and handling diseases coming out of China, so why do the WHO refuse to acknowledge/listen to them? Why won't the WHO even allow Taiwan to have a seat?
The WHO said travel bans were not wise, when clearly they were. Italy suffered heavily due to the direct flights from Wuhan. The WHO should have told countries to close down flights sooner. Note: Trump of course shut down flights very early, and was lambasted by the press at the time for doing so because the WHO said it was not necessary.
More recently the WHO have welcomed China reopening their wet markets, which have historically delivered numerous plagues to the planet, and now they're open again, risking delivering more.
Do you believe the figures (& information) reported from China are real? Me neither. Why don't the WHO question them?

In summary, China covered up/lied about the early stages of the infection and they silenced whistle blowers. The WHO played along, and made poor decisions. They are seemingly partisan towards China. Surely these are significant failings/issues?

Ultimately:- The WHO needs reforming.
China needs to be held accountable

ps1: Let's remember the WHO only a few years ago wanted to make Robert Mugabe a "goodwill ambassador", ignoring his track record of human rights violations.
ps2: Nice fact about Taiwan - Trump is the first president to have spoken to (recognise them) in something like 40yrs... ie: Rightly ignoring China's oppression of them.

What would have been the point in the WHO "condemning" China at the beginning of a viral outbreak that threatened everywhere else? The likely result would have been less transparency, not more. This also assumes that the WHO was in full possession of the facts regarding China, which we're told weren't being "transparent" in the first place. It's merely assuming foul play on the WHO's behalf, where there are no facts to support such a belief.

By the way, the WHO are an apolitical organisation. They aren't in the business of scoring points against other countries, like Trump and his administration. If the were, they'd probably have a LOT to say about America's involvement around the world and the detrimental effects it has on it. It serves the WHO no purpose at all to condemning any nation, when there's a ton of fault to go around every nation. If the WHO started point fingers at China, then they'd have to start doing that to Italy, Spain, France, Britain and America as well. Not to mention others.

I think you been listening to too much Donnie Neil. ;)

The same arse that has now withdrawn funding to the WHO...in the middle of a global pandemic. You couldn't make it up.

[Neil]

What would have been the point in the WHO "condemning" China at the beginning of a viral outbreak that threatened everywhere else? The likely result would have been less transparency, not more. This also assumes that the WHO was in full possession of the facts regarding China, which we're told weren't being "transparent" in the first place. It's merely assuming foul play on the WHO's behalf, where there are no facts to support such a belief.

By the way, the WHO are an apolitical organisation. They aren't in the business of scoring points against other countries, like Trump and his administration. If the were, they'd probably have a LOT to say about America's involvement around the world and the detrimental effects it has on it. It serves the WHO no purpose at all to condemning any nation, when there's a ton of fault to go around every nation. If the WHO started point fingers at China, then they'd have to start doing that to Italy, Spain, France, Britain and America as well. Not to mention others.

You're right, the WHO is supposed to be apolitical organisation. Let's once again, consider how objectively the WHO did that, and in doing so, also consider Chinas part in events, which people are seemingly happy to ignore?
Whistle blowers in China try to inform the world of the impending pandemic. China silences them. The WHO? Crickets...
End of December (31st?), China finally admit there is a Corona Virus. Keep in mind WHO had already received reports before this, and even reports which confirmed person to person tranmission. Why did it take China month(s) to admit this, and to share this information? Why did they actively suppress this information? Why didn't WHO question this delay and hiding of information? Why did the WHO simply take China's word on these matters? Indeed, why have the WHO instead praised China?
Almost immediately, the CDC repeatedly offered to help China identify and investigate the disease. China refused. The WHO? Crickets...
Within a week of China's admission, the CDC recommended a travel warning for Wuhan. Why hadn't the WHO done this week(s) before?
Etc....
To more recent events such as the WHO praising China for reopening the same wet markets that have now created at least three serious pandemics in the past two decades. To coin a phrase, "You couldn't make it up!"

The WHO bungled this pandemic. It has shown partisan action in favour of China to the detriment to the rest of the globe. Its poorly considered actions cost the world time, and quite literally lives.



...The same arse that has now withdrawn funding to the WHO...in the middle of a global pandemic. You couldn't make it up.
I'll have to be frank, but that to me at least comes across as a feelies over facts. ie: Why should the US continue to put in $40m a month into an organisation clearly no longer fit for purpose? The WHO wasn't really helping contain this pandemic over the last couple of months, let alone now. So couldn't $40m a month be put to better use domestically in the US, until such time as the WHO is reformed such that it is fit for purpose?

When should funding be removed? In six months time when that quarter of a billion dollars could probably have been used far more constructively domestically?

Note: This is the same "arse" who on some calls has been ahead of the curve by taking action not proposed/endorsed by the WHO, until much later. The same "arse" who has even donated some of his salary to the cause...

[shootemindehead]

You're right, the WHO is supposed to be apolitical organisation. Let's once again, consider how objectively the WHO did that, and in doing so, also consider Chinas part in events, which people are seemingly happy to ignore?
Whistle blowers in China try to inform the world of the impending pandemic. China silences them. The WHO? Crickets...
End of December (31st?), China finally admit there is a Corona Virus. Keep in mind WHO had already received reports before this, and even reports which confirmed person to person tranmission. Why did it take China month(s) to admit this, and to share this information? Why did they actively suppress this information? Why didn't WHO question this delay and hiding of information? Why did the WHO simply take China's word on these matters? Indeed, why have the WHO instead praised China?
Almost immediately, the CDC repeatedly offered to help China identify and investigate the disease. China refused. The WHO? Crickets...
Within a week of China's admission, the CDC recommended a travel warning for Wuhan. Why hadn't the WHO done this week(s) before?
Etc....
To more recent events such as the WHO praising China for reopening the same wet markets that have now created at least three serious pandemics in the past two decades. To coin a phrase, "You couldn't make it up!"

The WHO bungled this pandemic. It has shown partisan action in favour of China to the detriment to the rest of the globe. Its poorly considered actions cost the world time, and quite literally lives.

EVERYBODY has "bungled" this pandemic to a degree. That's still no reason to be playing silly political games with an organisation that is at the front line in the war against it Neil. You can bullet point selective details against the WHO all you want, but now is certainly not the time to be pulling funding from them, especially when the most vulnerable countries are beginning to feel the sting of Covid-19.

If certain quarters want to offer constructive critical points about the WHO's handling of Covid-19 and anyone else's for that matter, then they can do that. But what doesn't help at all is subtracting funding from a group that are instrumental in fighting the problem.

As for being "objective", I don't think you are. You are merely parroting the party line that Trump has offered you.


I'll have to be frank, but that to me at least comes across as a feelies over facts. ie: Why should the US continue to put in $40m a month into an organisation clearly no longer fit for purpose? The WHO wasn't really helping contain this pandemic over the last couple of months, let alone now. So couldn't $40m a month be put to better use domestically in the US, until such time as the WHO is reformed such that it is fit for purpose?

When should funding be removed? In six months time when that quarter of a billion dollars could probably have been used far more constructively domestically?

Note: This is the same "arse" who on some calls has been ahead of the curve by taking action not proposed/endorsed by the WHO, until much later. The same "arse" who has even donated some of his salary to the cause...

Nothing to with "feelies over facts". This should be about helping to stem the spread of a global pandemic. The worst that we've seen in 100 years. Not about playing silly political games and trying to divert the public's attention away from the Trump administration's own shortcomings.

You attempt to label the WHO as "not fit for purpose" sounds ridiculous and is absolutely baseless too.

[MinionZombie]

I do agree that international flights/travel should have been shut down far quicker, but Trump shutting down flights from China didn't help much when everyone else was moving about quite freely at the same time.

IIRC, Trump at one point early on blamed immigration for the spread of the virus, when blatantly it was everyday international travel. A silly bit of sabre rattling for the core audience, surely?

It's also certainly true that pretty much no nation is coming out of this as a glowing exemplar of what to do in a Pandemic, some moreso than others, and the WHO will certainly have some things to answer for, but so will every other body and nation. Germany seized upon their firm foundation in pharmaceuticals to get some proper testing going, didn't they? As well as employing the use of private facilities early on, while here in the UK we've dragged our feet on testing and, IIRC, only just recently brought in help from the private sector for testing capacity.


https://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/151209103057-star-wars-china-racism-poster-full-169.jpg

Although Boyega (I'm presuming you're comparing posters in regards to him?) has a decidedly and conspicuously reduced bit of real estate on that poster (while BB-8 takes a larger chunk), note that it's Oscar Isaac (already a minimal presence on the original poster) who is removed entirely, in addition to the deletion of Maz Kanata and Chewie.

[Neil]

...playing silly political games with an organisation that is at the front line in the war against it Neil.The WHO are not the front line. In the case of the US, it is the frontline. ie: The US needs what from the WHO at the moment? It truly needed the WHO 3-4 months ago, but the WHO failed in its most important function then.


You can bullet point selective details against the WHO all you wantAnd you don't find some of these "selective details" utterly breath taking? ie: The WHO repeated China's lies without question, for month(s). The WHO were told in December there was person to person infection, yet even in mid-January they were denying it.

The WHO's poor handling of this pandemic and clear partisan relationship with China literally cost time and therefore lives. Again, incase this isn't clear, the WHO didn't question one of the most oppressive inhumane regimes in the world when they lied about the infection in their country and covered up the infection in their country. Instead the WHO have only praised them.


but now is certainly not the time to be pulling funding from them, especially when the most vulnerable countries are beginning to feel the sting of Covid-19.Agreed... But then I don't know what the US pausing their contributions will do to this?

It could well be over the next six months for example, while the US pauses its payments, that quarter of a billion dollars that can do more good in the US than funding a questionable WHO. ie: If that money can significantly help US citizens?


As for being "objective", I don't think you are. You are merely parroting the party line that Trump has offered you.Can't agree I'm afraid. Especially when I can't even remember the last time I "listened to Trump" :)

Ultimately I cannot fathom the notion that some people criticising Trump, had it been different people acting the same or saying the same, the reaction would be different...


You attempt to label the WHO as "not fit for purpose" sounds ridiculous and is absolutely baseless too. Their most important purpose from Nov-19 to Jan-20 was to gauge and advise on the pandemic coming out of Wuhan. They seriously failed to do this, instead putting too much weight on the word from a cruel regime, to the degree they cost the rest of the world time (& lives).

They are not fit for purpose as they are not acting in a unpartisan fashion befitting their title.

[shootemindehead]

You think Trump is right to withdraw funding to an organisation tasked with fighting the effects of a global pandemic.

We'll leave it there so.

[JDP]

A small compendium of Trump's recent blunders & lies:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/14/politics/fact-check-trump-april-14/index.html

A more comprehensive compendium of Trump's lack of foresight and ineptitude for dealing with the Coronavirus threat:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/15/opinion/trump-coronavirus.html

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61goXvTLLSL._AC_SL1500_.jpg

[Neil]

You think Trump is right to withdraw funding to an organisation tasked with fighting the effects of a global pandemic.

We'll leave it there so.
I've repeatedly listed a fair old factual diatribe against the WHO (& China), including the fairly clear demonstration that, a) China lied and covered up CV19 for month(s) in Wuhan, including silencing Chinese doctors attempting to warn the rest of the world, and b) the WHO happily echoed, accepted and even praised China's narrative, were partisan and negligent in their role, and therefore put the entire planet at more risk.

So, remove funding from the WHO? Yes... Definately. And I hope other countries follow suit, or threated to follow suit. I'll happily question its timing of course, but I've already explained my thinking on that...

We'll leave it there so.

- - - Updated - - -


A small compendium of Trump's recent blunders & lies:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/14/politics/fact-check-trump-april-14/index.html

A more comprehensive compendium of Trump's lack of foresight and ineptitude for dealing with the Coronavirus threat:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/15/opinion/trump-coronavirus.html

Understood... What I find fascinating about the kind of list(s) you've included is just how skewed the measuring sticks used are. eg: Trump has indeed been woefully complacent in some of his references to CV19, but at the same time he's made some pretty good calls, some of which were well ahead of the curve demonstrated in other countries/leaders. Indeed, even better than the WHO's recommendations, but that's another point.

Ultimately, do you believe your article(s) in anyway give a balanced account of Trump's actions? Honestly? Or could we consider them more of a one side hit piece? Honestly?

My point is, the media has now made politics rediculously polarised, where people are now utterly demonised beyond all levels of reasonable logic.



An example? Certain US politicans were telling members of the US public to actively go and hug Chinese people less than even two months ago, with all the clear unnecessary risk that exposed them to, in all thruth for no other reason that to virtue signal. Had Trump told people to do this, it would undoubtably appear on one of your lists.... But the fact instead other US politicans said to do this - who were not Trump - means those publication will of course no doubt not mention these dangerous recommendation.

Do you see my point?

Or another angle, for example mentioning Trump downplaying CV19 towards the middle of Jan, and yet completely ignoring the fact the WHO just a week or so before were still telling the world it wasn't transmitting person to person. Yet, Trump is demonised, and the WHO's rediculous handling and misinformation is not deemed a fair part of the narrative?


I just don't fathom this need to go all out and demonise Trump beyond seemingly all levels of fair mindedness. To wantonly emphasise failings and negatives, and all but ignore successes and positives. How is that balanced? How does that lead to a fair conclusion? I can't understand people who seem dedicated to the former... and seem so unwilling to (ever) accept the latter.

[EvilNed]

I think it is far too early to draw any definite conclusions regarding any perceived short comings of the WHO. Whether or not they are mishandling the situation is definetly not clear. What is clear is that they are needed in this time of crisis, regardless of whatever mistakes they may have done - they certainly aren't doing it now.

Donald Trump's actions in the last few weeks have been far from decisive or awe inspiring. I believe rather they've been shallow, narcissistic and sometimes outright stupid. He's way too impulsive to be able to handle a situation like this, and if he feels he has an axe to grind with the WHO then he should do it after the crisis has abated rather than trying to divert attention toward them in a time of his own short comings.

[Neil]

I think it is far too early to draw any definite conclusions regarding any perceived short comings of the WHO. Whether or not they are mishandling the situation is definetly not clear. What is clear is that they are needed in this time of crisis, regardless of whatever mistakes they may have done - they certainly aren't doing it now.

Maybe... I think the actions of the WHO over the past four months has clearly shown they are partisan as regards China, and this may have contribued to them dropping the ball as regards their actions and advice at times, especially Dec/Jan, which was woefully counter productive. Not accepting the disease was spreading from person to person, and not advising flights to be curbed for example in/out of Wuhan, caused the disease to spread unnecessarily early (eg: to Italy)!

I'd also ask, as far as the US for example is concerned, why are "they [the WHO] needed in this time of crisis?" ie: What are they actually contributing at the moment to the US and why does the US "need" them?


"his own short comings" - What do you feel those are out of interest? (BTW I fully accept he's downplayed the seriousness of the disease at times, what ever his motives were for that) And, to be fair, are you able to list anything he did that was positive?

- - - Updated - - -

Germany is talking about reducing their lockdown measures - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52299358

Here in the UK, we seem to be at the peak of our infection rate now, and plateauing, so I guess in a week or so, when infected figures are reducing (an R0 of less than 1), what will our exit strategy be. Clearly we can't stay in lockdown for much longer without serious SERIOUS impact to the country.


What's also interesting is some countries, such as Sweden, haven't even had any really!?

[EvilNed]

The WHO contributes in that it coordinates research efforts from all across the world. The WHO has weekly conference and update calls from researchers from Argentina to South Korea. They have access to more information, doctors and research than any other organization in the world. While you may scoff at their inability to act decisively or correctly, they are certainly not to blame for anything (they did not create the Virus) and in any case the same can be said of anyone. Donald Trump has acted irrationally and impulsively throughout, yet his leadership is still needed. Time will tell who was right and wrong, but the WHO is contributing immensly.

Among Donald Trump's short comings, the most obvious are the multitude of erroneous information he spreads and the rash statements he makes which someone has to either correct or retract. "Absolute authority", "open by easter" - etc, he's just not a very thorough or decisive person. He makes numerous incorrect statements.
I'm not as poralized on him as others are. I don't think he's all bad, but he's certainly not fit for the Presidency. However, having said that, I'm not sure that there are many who are... The US political landscape is completely broken and that's not his fault. He's just a product of it.

Also, living in Sweden, I can confirm that we haven't had any drastic lockdown measures. The only state-mandated closures are high schools, universities and elderly homes (visitors are barred). Might be a few others, I can't remember. However the jury is still out if this is a succesful strategy or not, however it doesn't appear to make a huge difference either way. Our former Jeapordy host just died from it, it was announced this night. Not the equivalent of Alex Trebek (he's already passed on), but the one who replaced him for a few years afterwards. He was 51.

[JDP]

- - - Updated - - -



Understood... What I find fascinating about the kind of list(s) you've included is just how skewed the measuring sticks used are. eg: Trump has indeed been woefully complacent in some of his references to CV19, but at the same time he's made some pretty good calls, some of which were well ahead of the curve demonstrated in other countries/leaders. Indeed, even better than the WHO's recommendations, but that's another point.

Ultimately, do you believe your article(s) in anyway give a balanced account of Trump's actions? Honestly? Or could we consider them more of a one side hit piece? Honestly?

My point is, the media has now made politics rediculously polarised, where people are now utterly demonised beyond all levels of reasonable logic.



An example? Certain US politicans were telling members of the US public to actively go and hug Chinese people less than even two months ago, with all the clear unnecessary risk that exposed them to, in all thruth for no other reason that to virtue signal. Had Trump told people to do this, it would undoubtably appear on one of your lists.... But the fact instead other US politicans said to do this - who were not Trump - means those publication will of course no doubt not mention these dangerous recommendation.

Do you see my point?

Or another angle, for example mentioning Trump downplaying CV19 towards the middle of Jan, and yet completely ignoring the fact the WHO just a week or so before were still telling the world it wasn't transmitting person to person. Yet, Trump is demonised, and the WHO's rediculous handling and misinformation is not deemed a fair part of the narrative?


I just don't fathom this need to go all out and demonise Trump beyond seemingly all levels of fair mindedness. To wantonly emphasise failings and negatives, and all but ignore successes and positives. How is that balanced? How does that lead to a fair conclusion? I can't understand people who seem dedicated to the former... and seem so unwilling to (ever) accept the latter.

If you read the facts compiled by the second link, Trump & his entourage have been ignoring what the WHO had already been saying and warning even as early as January. Let's not try to deviate the bulk of the blame on the WHO. They did much better than Donald Trump & company. It is them who are mostly at fault here. These guys took the whole thing basically as a "joke" from the beginning, until many Americans started dropping like flies. "The Kung-Flu Virus", indeed. Clowns.

[shootemindehead]

I think it is far too early to draw any definite conclusions regarding any perceived short comings of the WHO. Whether or not they are mishandling the situation is definetly not clear. What is clear is that they are needed in this time of crisis, regardless of whatever mistakes they may have done - they certainly aren't doing it now.

Donald Trump's actions in the last few weeks have been far from decisive or awe inspiring. I believe rather they've been shallow, narcissistic and sometimes outright stupid. He's way too impulsive to be able to handle a situation like this, and if he feels he has an axe to grind with the WHO then he should do it after the crisis has abated rather than trying to divert attention toward them in a time of his own short comings.


It's probably fair to say that the WHO could have been a little bit more vigilant with the news coming from China. But I wouldn't buy any of Trump's bullshit about them being "too China centric", whatever the hell that's supposed to mean. It's especially lamentable, considering that he was saying that China was doing a good job himself in February.

Hindsight is easy and shudda, wudda, cudda rarely helps. But sanctioning them, especially at the moment, is the action of truly shallow mind indeed and at the end of the day it's merely about redirecting blame in an attempt to make one's self look better.

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Also, living in Sweden, I can confirm that we haven't had any drastic lockdown measures. The only state-mandated closures are high schools, universities and elderly homes (visitors are barred). Might be a few others, I can't remember. However the jury is still out if this is a succesful strategy or not, however it doesn't appear to make a huge difference either way. Our former Jeapordy host just died from it, it was announced this night. Not the equivalent of Alex Trebek (he's already passed on), but the one who replaced him for a few years afterwards. He was 51.

I read somewhere a while ago that Sweden has about 40% single occupancy in dwellings. I can't say whether that's true or not. But if it's the case, it would have a big impact on transmission. So your relatively mild lockdown measures may be somewhat sufficient. Contrast that with Italy which is being hammered because of the way they live, with multiple generations under the same roof.

[EvilNed]

I read somewhere a while ago that Sweden has about 40% single occupancy in dwellings. I can't say whether that's true or not. But if it's the case, it would have a big impact on transmission. So your relatively mild lockdown measures may be somewhat sufficient. Contrast that with Italy which is being hammered because of the way they live, with multiple generations under the same roof.

I keep forgetting this fact, but yes, Sweden is made up of overwhelmingly more single households than some other countries

[Neil]

The WHO contributes in that it coordinates research efforts from all across the world. The WHO has weekly conference and update calls from researchers from Argentina to South Korea. They have access to more information, doctors and research than any other organization in the world.Agreed... And that's why I'll even question Trump's immediate stopping of contributions, rather than the threat of it without reform.

That said, the WHO has not been completely defunded. They have now had a shot fired across the bow by something like 15-20% of their budget being removed to apply pressure to get their ship in order.


While you may scoff at their inability to act decisively or correctly, they are certainly not to blame for anythingSimply cannot agree with this. Repeatedly they have praised China for their actions. And at the risk of repeating myself this means praising one of the inhumane regimes on the planet who lied and attempted to cover up the pandemic within Wuhan. Had they been more open the disease would not have spread so quickly or prolifically. Had the WHO (instead) done their job, likewise.

And to repeat myself again, we had Chinese whistle blowers quite literally risking their lives and indeed Taiwan telling the WHO, and the world, the virus was spreading person to person in 2019. Meanwhile in mid Jan 2020 the WHO happily repeated China's mantra, that the virus was not spreading.

And as regards Taiwan, let's remember they have been one of, if not THE, most successful in preventing the spread of CV19 in their country, yet, the WHO refuses to acknowledge them or listen to them. Why? How is that befitting of the supposed title of "World Health Organisation".


they did not create the VirusNo, but their poor partisan actions allowed it to spread more quickly. And if we consider what did create the virus, and others, the Chinese wet markets, the WHO of course have just praised China for reopening them again? Really? Shouldn't the WHO be asking China to close them, or significantly reform them in order to prevent the next virus?


Among Donald Trump's short comings, the most obvious are the multitude of erroneous information he spreads and the rash statements he makes which someone has to either correct or retractTrump has indeed said questionable things at times. But he has also made some important well timed moves other countries and leaders did not, and indeed which the WHO should have made and did not. eg: Trump limited flights when the WHO were still saying there was no need to. If only Italy had done the same and ignore the WHO's misguided advice!

And if we consider this measuring stick being applied fairly, we had other prominent US politicans lambasting Trump for taking action against flights in Jan. We have similar prominent US politicans less than two months ago actively virtue signalling by suggesting the public should "go hug a Chinese" with all the rediculous unnecessary risk this creates. Had Trump behaved in this way, no doubt some individuals would be including these on "their lists". Because it wasn't Trump , it's not on their radar! Again, I'm more than happy to acknowledge Trump's faults, but what I'm highlighting here is the way some individuals seem to not want to do it in a measured and fair minded fashion... And alas certain branches of the media follow suit.


Also, living in Sweden, I can confirm that we haven't had any drastic lockdown measures. The only state-mandated closures are high schools, universities and elderly homes (visitors are barred). Might be a few others, I can't remember. However the jury is still out if this is a succesful strategy or not, however it doesn't appear to make a huge difference either way. Our former Jeapordy host just died from it, it was announced this night. Not the equivalent of Alex Trebek (he's already passed on), but the one who replaced him for a few years afterwards. He was 51.Understood. I'm very wary of "died from it" vs "died with it"... While it probably is the former, assuming it's not the latter could dangerously skew stats.

Taiwan - which the WHO actively ignores - have been outrageously successful in dealing with the infection. I think they've had only six CV19 related deaths? Why won't the WHO listen or acknowledge Taiwan? Could it be because of China? - https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/04/14/834431383/taiwan-reports-no-new-coronavirus-cases-adding-to-success-in-fighting-pandemic

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If you read the facts compiled by the second link, Trump & his entourage have been ignoring what the WHO had already been saying and warning even as early as January. Let's not try to deviate the bulk of the blame on the WHO. They did much better than Donald Trump & company. It is them who are mostly at fault here. These guys took the whole thing basically as a "joke" from the beginning, until many Americans started dropping like flies. "The Kung-Flu Virus", indeed. Clowns.

I totally agree Trump underplayed CV19 at times. So what I find interesting is you won't seem to use the same measuring stick for the WHO? Had the WHO listened and reacted to CV19 correctly, acknowledging there was person to person transfer earlier, proposing shutting down flights earlier, the world would be in a far better position than it is now. They accepted and repeated China's lies. They ignore reports for weeks (months?) of person to person infection. So who is to blame for the prolific spread of the virus across the planet? Who could have significantly curtailed it? The WHO, or Trump? Clearly the WHO... Yet we have people fixated on Trump, and willing to give the WHO as pass?

eg: Again, had the WHO proposed shutting down flights as soon as Trump did, undoubtably lives would have been saved. Yet, this won't appear on some peoples radar? Why? Why is the measuring stick only seemingly put next to Trump, not the WHO?


As for the lists supplied, I'd suggest again these are far from fair minded, even reports. eg: The NYT has repeatedly shown its colours as regards Trump. For example, attempting to smear Trump's talk about Hydroxychloroquine potentially being a useful tool by needlessly saying he had a financial interest in its use with everything that implies. Utterly disingenuous, and of course leads to even more unfair nonsense like this - https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-reportedly-has-financial-interest-in-hydroxychloroquine-manufacturer

Again, I'm absolutely not saying Trump has handled things perfectly, few countries have in this unprecedented time. But the WHO have been overly partisan towards China, to the degree they did not react in the best interests of the world. They are a compromised organisation, and have demonstrated this repeatedly. They need to reformed. I'd personally be happier if Trump had threatened to defund them, but I can understand why he's done it immediately too.

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Australia on lock down for another FOUR WEEKS! Wow!

[bassman]

Trump seemed to be a bit subdued during yesterday’s briefing. Compared to his usual actions, he seemed to be keeping his thoughts to himself and speaking more from the prewritten notes. I bet his campaign crew are losing their minds trying to control his consistent flow of word vomit.

Today he’s announcing the reopening guidelines. Should be interesting. At this point, I’m addicted to these briefings like a housewife to soap operas. Some of the most dramatic and jaw dropping stuff on the tube. I have to tune in for “my stories”. :p

[Neil]

Trump seemed to be a bit subdued during yesterday’s briefing. Compared to his usual actions, he seemed to be keeping his thoughts to himself and speaking more from the prewritten notes. I bet his campaign crew are losing their minds trying to control his consistent flow of word vomit.
So the point of that comment was? I mean, it could just be he was very tired? And I'm sure his campaign crew are indeed losing their minds at his continued high approval ratings? So the need to come to a specific conclusion, simply to deliver "consistent flow of word vomit?" - Hmmm... Just pointing it out...

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Also, living in Sweden, I can confirm that we haven't had any drastic lockdown measures. The only state-mandated closures are high schools, universities and elderly homes (visitors are barred). Might be a few others, I can't remember. However the jury is still out if this is a succesful strategy or not, however it doesn't appear to make a huge difference either way.

Just seen an article that infact Sweden isn't actually doing very well compared to other Nordic countries? ie: Highest death count and highest death %age?

Could stronger social distancing action help?

That said, figures are still low...

[bassman]

So the point of that comment was? I mean, it could just be he was very tired? And I'm sure his campaign crew are indeed losing their minds at his continued high approval ratings? So the need to come to a specific conclusion, simply to deliver "consistent flow of word vomit?" - Hmmm... Just pointing it out...


I’m not against Trump, Neil. He’s done several things right, so I’m not saying he’s all bad. But I don’t see how anyone could say he’s a good public speaker during all this. The point is that he needs to stick more to the teleprompter because his own thoughts are only causing more drama, and it seems like his crew may have finally convinced him to stick more to the text he’s given.

I know nothing about politics, I’m only referring to his awful press briefings where he’s stirring up trouble for himself because he can’t control his mouth.

[Neil]

I’m not against Trump, Neil. He’s done several things right, so I’m not saying he’s all bad. But I don’t see how anyone could say he’s a good public speaker during all this. The point is that he needs to stick more to the teleprompter because his own thoughts are only causing more drama, and it seems like his crew may have finally convinced him to stick more to the text he’s given.

I know nothing about politics, I’m only referring to his awful press briefings where he’s stirring up trouble for himself because he can’t control his mouth.

Oh, he does go off-piste at times in an unproductive way. I'd definately agree if he reigned it it, the outcome would be for the better.

And his suggestions that the Wuhan Virus wasn't going to be a major issue was unwise. That said, it's (hopefully) beginning to look like it could well be more akin to a seasonal flu in figures than first suspected... ie: A mortality rate approaching 0.1% instead of the 6% feared...

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Recommendations for vitamin D.

I've been taking alternating vitamin D and multi vitamins tablets each day for a while now, theory being, if I get CV19, I'll have a slightly better chance of fighting it...
GCSXNGc7pfs

[EvilNed]

Just seen an article that infact Sweden isn't actually doing very well compared to other Nordic countries? ie: Highest death count and highest death %age?

Could stronger social distancing action help?

That said, figures are still low...

It's way to early to draw any conclusions regarding that. This epidemic is going to last months, maybe over a year. When we have the whole picture we see who has had the highest death and / or infection count. Sweden may be higher now, but lower in the long term if individuals end up immune.

Furthermore, you cannot quite compare statistics between countries because each country tests on different scales. In addition, Deaths are counted on different scales as well. Sweden counts ALL deaths related to Corona, even people who die at home or in Elderly homes, as well as people who have died with the disease but not from it (as you said). Norway does not cast as wide a net as Sweden.

Italy casts an enormous net, and I believe the US does too.

The monthy death rate of March in Sweden was the lowest this year for like 5 years. So it does not appear to be that bad...

[Neil]

It's way to early to draw any conclusions regarding that. This epidemic is going to last months, maybe over a year. When we have the whole picture we see who has had the highest death and / or infection count. Sweden may be higher now, but lower in the long term if individuals end up immune.

Furthermore, you cannot quite compare statistics between countries because each country tests on different scales. In addition, Deaths are counted on different scales as well. Sweden counts ALL deaths related to Corona, even people who die at home or in Elderly homes, as well as people who have died with the disease but not from it (as you said). Norway does not cast as wide a net as Sweden.

Italy casts an enormous net, and I believe the US does too.

The monthy death rate of March in Sweden was the lowest this year for like 5 years. So it does not appear to be that bad...

All agreed...

I am getting the feeling this thing is quietening down a bit quicker than people thought it might, and as if there a lot of infections going through the population not just unreported, but even unknown to the infected.

[MistressVirus]

Phew! That was a read!! :D Anyway, I agree with most of the above... I wonder if like, y know, we should be preparing for the apocalypse? LOL. I mean it's scary out there/here/everywhere. Is Neil a girl? Sorry I'm new. Stay home, stay safe! :* Hoping for the best for all of you all and yours!! :D <3

[Tricky]

Hi all! Thought I'd drop in and see how everyone is doing in these strange times, keeping safe I hope? I'm working from home on full pay and to be honest I think I want this to be a more permanent arrangement when things return to normal, far less stress and none of the hassle of commuting.
I'm going out cycling a lot on an evening for my hour of exercise that we're allowed out to do here in the UK, and it's like something from a post apocalyptic movie going round the empty streets of York, makes for some great photo opportunities as the city is normally heaving at this time of year.

[MinionZombie]

Nice to see and old familiar face pop back in! :)

I saw some of your pics - it's quite spooky seeing such a lack of activity.

The perfect time to film a zombie movie (particularly low/no budget) and get some production value - but you can't, 'cos of lockdown.

[EvilNed]

Nice to see and old familiar face pop back in! :)

I saw some of your pics - it's quite spooky seeing such a lack of activity.

The perfect time to film a zombie movie (particularly low/no budget) and get some production value - but you can't, 'cos of lockdown.

We can in Sweden!

But there's still plenty of people out there...

Our PM just held a speech where he sternly told everyone to not expect anything to open up (relatively speaking, of course) and sort of canceling Walpurgis, which is a big thing here. That's fine I guess. The experts suggest we'd be around 60% immune by end of May, which would make it very difficult for the Virus to travel through society. But the PM told us to expect a restrained summer, however I suspect he was talking mostly about travelling abroad since I think we're expecting most other countries to be suffering harder than we are. We'll see who's right in the end, I guess.

We loose about 100 people a day right now. It's sad and weird. But overall our population is very healthy which I think contributes to the fact that we're managing through this.

[Neil]

I read that some research from the US implies the infection rate is 50+ times what the official reported figures are. This would put CV19's mortality rate down knocking on the door of seasonal flu.

Of course that's not a comment on how contagious it is, or how bad its not fatal symptoms are...

[EvilNed]

I read that some research from the US implies the infection rate is 50+ times what the official reported figures are. This would put CV19's mortality rate down knocking on the door of seasonal flu.

Of course that's not a comment on how contagious it is, or how bad its not fatal symptoms are...

The idea that the actual mortality rate of Corona is low is not controversial or new. In fact, it's probably way lower than 1%. But since nobody is immune, or has any resistance to it, pretty much nobody is safe. That's the dangerous part, everybody getting it at once.

[MinionZombie]

The idea that the actual mortality rate of Corona is low is not controversial or new. In fact, it's probably way lower than 1%. But since nobody is immune, or has any resistance to it, pretty much nobody is safe. That's the dangerous part, everybody getting it at once.

Indeed, and then the huge strain that would put not only public services under, but the wider economy - hell, the world in general. If you had a huge number of people out for the count with this ghastly virus you'd see so many things grind to a halt. Right now we're all keeping our heads above water, thanks to lockdown and managing the spread as a result.

I wonder when we'll see stories about these "open up" protesters coming down with Covid-19. :rolleyes:

[Neil]

The idea that the actual mortality rate of Corona is low is not controversial or new. In fact, it's probably way lower than 1%. But since nobody is immune, or has any resistance to it, pretty much nobody is safe. That's the dangerous part, everybody getting it at once.

Agreed... And it's looking as if the morality rate is akin to flu, which is around 0.1%. The thing to take away from this is there could well be millions of people now walking around with immunity, who aren't even truly aware of it. And secondly, given that, at what expense of a lockdown vs mortality rate, do we say, enough?

ps: I'm not against a lockdown, and indeed it's been vital I'd suggest here in the UK for example. But at what point is it then counter productive?

[Exatreides]

Hey folks,

This has been a good read moving through. As a nurse who worked in Liberia during the Ebola outbreak, we often made fun and mocked the WHO for how they handled that outbreak, and I was a little disappointed with their actions here as well. I don't agree with the funding cuts from the US to the WHO and think it's a poor short sighted move that's more about polling political points than actual reasoning. The WHO did eventually step up and mount a successful response to Ebola in Liberia and West Africa, along side of the nations ministries of health, US, and NGO's in the region. I do not agree at all with Trump using the funds that went to the WHO and directing them towards Samaratins purse, which is a very religious NGO that I've had rough experiences in the past.

Locally the major concerns have been with PPE shortages and economic impacts. I've encouraged many of my nurse and provider friends to refuse assignment without proper PPE, and many of them have. While treating patients is important, healthcare workers can not, and should not sacrifice themselves for others. There is no emergency in a pandemic.

[Neil]

Hey folks,

This has been a good read moving through. As a nurse who worked in Liberia during the Ebola outbreak, we often made fun and mocked the WHO for how they handled that outbreak, and I was a little disappointed with their actions here as well. I don't agree with the funding cuts from the US to the WHO and think it's a poor short sighted move that's more about polling political points than actual reasoning. The WHO did eventually step up and mount a successful response to Ebola in Liberia and West Africa, along side of the nations ministries of health, US, and NGO's in the region. I do not agree at all with Trump using the funds that went to the WHO and directing them towards Samaratins purse, which is a very religious NGO that I've had rough experiences in the past.

I think the US is correct to remove their funding from the WHO, and hope others follow suit if there are not serious changes made within the organisation. The US are the biggest contributor, and I believe a large proportion is voluntery too? That said, I'd have prefered to have seen Trump give a six month warning of the removal of funds, given everything else they do. Mind you, I can easily see the argument of $300b might be better spent elsewhere at the moment to the betterment of the US than proping up the WHO.

The WHO's dealings with CV19 were worrying, and almost certainly costly in lives and economic outcomes. The fact they seemingly took China at their word, repeating propaganda, is very concerning. Let's remember in mid Jan WHO were repeateding China's lies that there was no person to person transfer, something China clearly knew was not the case, and something that Taiwan had already told WHO in Dec was not the case... They then continued to suggest preventing flights from China would not be beneficial. We can only imagine what more insightful advice might have meant to Italy, who seemingly suffered due to direct flight from Wuhan.



Locally the major concerns have been with PPE shortages and economic impacts. I've encouraged many of my nurse and provider friends to refuse assignment without proper PPE, and many of them have. While treating patients is important, healthcare workers can not, and should not sacrifice themselves for others. There is no emergency in a pandemic.Indeed it's easy to imagine how PPE shortages are common, with huge proportions of the world requiring them, and the rate of knotts they can be used up :(

That said, I hate how here in the UK this shortage is being used politically to aggressively attack the government, with the media more than happy to repeatedly stick the knife as well.

For example, we had a case here in the UK over the weekend where papers ran a story of a nurse tweeting to Matt Hancock (Conservative Secretary of State for Health) about her daughter in tears over her lack if PPE. The papers of course failed to mention said nurse also tweeted before celebrating Boris on ICU when he had CV19, or to mention that she's a Labour Party Vice Chair, or that she'd donated PPE to local volunteers the day before her tweet. If only the press did just a modicum of due diligence, or tried to be even slightly non-partisan. The press ignore all her toxicity and agenda to create yet more doom and gloom...

I'm fed up of the press continually dooming and glooming everything they can at the moment, out of all sense and reason... Where's a bit of British stiff upper lip and national pride when required? :)

[EvilNed]

Haha, there's a bit of those clumsy attempts at striking political points here as well. The Christian democrats publically derided the government because the sickness got into the elderly homes in Stockholm. The government quickly replied that the elderly homes are administered on a regional level ... And the political party in charge of the Stockholm region are the Christian democrats.

The Moderate party, also in opposition, have kept most of their mouth shut however. Probably because, together with the Christian democrats, they run the Stockholm region healthcare and their long time policies of completely disassembling it have become apparent as disastrous. There's no surplus of anything, and the only thing keeping Stockholm floating is thanks to the efforts of the government (and army, actually).

[Neil]

Haha, there's a bit of those clumsy attempts at striking political points here as well. The Christian democrats publically derided the government because the sickness got into the elderly homes in Stockholm. The government quickly replied that the elderly homes are administered on a regional level ... And the political party in charge of the Stockholm region are the Christian democrats.

The Moderate party, also in opposition, have kept most of their mouth shut however. Probably because, together with the Christian democrats, they run the Stockholm region healthcare and their long time policies of completely disassembling it have become apparent as disastrous. There's no surplus of anything, and the only thing keeping Stockholm floating is thanks to the efforts of the government (and army, actually).
It's appalling and sad how it's being politically weaponised :(

[Exatreides]

Eh, I've been doing disaster response since 2014.

I kind of expected this response from my time responding to hurricane Maria. The Trump administration bungled that response to an incredible degree. Following the disbanding of the 2018 pandemic response team, this is what I worried about. Not restocking the national PPE stores was kind of worrying too. At the start of this, nurses in Oregon were told that if they chose not work without PPE they could lose their licenses, which is insane and a horrible idea. Luckily PPE supplies have stabilized to an extent. However that situation could have been avoided.

[shootemindehead]

The WHO's dealings with CV19 were worrying, and almost certainly costly in lives and economic outcomes. The fact they seemingly took China at their word, repeating propaganda, is very concerning. Let's remember in mid Jan WHO were repeateding China's lies that there was no person to person transfer, something China clearly knew was not the case, and something that Taiwan had already told WHO in Dec was not the case... They then continued to suggest preventing flights from China would not be beneficial. We can only imagine what more insightful advice might have meant to Italy, who seemingly suffered due to direct flight from Wuhan.


This is the tweet from the WHO on the 14th January.

https://i.ibb.co/FVXCcNw/1.jpg

There's nothing really untoward here and they couldn't have had any real solid information about Chinese "lies". They are merely reporting what the Chinese have provided them with and considering that the outbreak was in Wuhan, the WHO have no reason to disbelieve them, as they were in the best position to provide any information at all. This is just two weeks after the Chinese first reported outbreaks of "pneumonia" on the 31st of Dec. Five days later the Chinese confirmed human to human transmission.

In addition, when the WHO asked to be allowed into Wuhan in January, they were refused, as far as I'm aware. They only set foot in the country on the 9th of February and only then were able to conduct their own research and gather their own data from the primary site.

Also, the information from Taiwan at the end of December was basically just a hunch that they queried with the WHO. A hunch based on their experience in 2003 with SARS. So, there were no facts there to go on and it isn't any kind smoking gun against the WHO either. Taiwan wasn't providing anything definite.

The WHO aren't some sort of super power that have a crystal ball to see when a country is lying about something and when it isn't, and expecting them to start out at the beginning of a possible pandemic by calling the Chinese liars isn't sensible in the least. They needed Chinese cooperation in order to get boots on the ground in Wuhan. If they had accused China of lying they wouldn't have been allowed access and we'd all be in a bigger mess than we are now.

As an organisation tackling Covid-19, the WHO have done little wrong here and I think some people are expecting miracles from them. In addition, they are merely being scapegoated by Trump and the Republicans, who's own actions leave a lot to be desired...and still do.

[Neil]

This is the tweet from the WHO on the 14th January.

https://i.ibb.co/FVXCcNw/1.jpg

There's nothing really untoward here and they couldn't have had any real solid information about Chinese "lies". They are merely reporting what the Chinese have provided them with and considering that the outbreak was in Wuhan, the WHO have no reason to disbelieve them, as they were in the best position to provide any information at all. This is just two weeks after the Chinese first reported outbreaks of "pneumonia" on the 31st of Dec. Five days later the Chinese confirmed human to human transmission.

In addition, when the WHO asked to be allowed into Wuhan in January, they were refused, as far as I'm aware. They only set foot in the country on the 9th of February and only then were able to conduct their own research and gather their own data from the primary site.

Also, the information from Taiwan at the end of December was basically just a hunch that they queried with the WHO. A hunch based on their experience in 2003 with SARS. So, there were no facts there to go on and it isn't any kind smoking gun against the WHO either. Taiwan wasn't providing anything definite.

The WHO aren't some sort of super power that have a crystal ball to see when a country is lying about something and when it isn't, and expecting them to start out at the beginning of a possible pandemic by calling the Chinese liars isn't sensible in the least. They needed Chinese cooperation in order to get boots on the ground in Wuhan. If they had accused China of lying they wouldn't have been allowed access and we'd all be in a bigger mess than we are now.
Understood, but are you suggesting China has a reliable history of being open, honest and transparent? And yet this is how the WHO repeatedly treated them, and indeed congratulated them on. So, no the WHO does not have a crystal ball, but it does not require one to not trust China, or indeed heep praise where is simply does not belong. China knew the disease was spreading, yet tried to hide it, silencing whistle blowers, and indoing so, helped stread it around the globe. The WHO, simply took China at its world and was happy to repeat their rhetoric. Taiwan's input in Dec, along with a string of whistleblower accounts (what has China done to those poor folks!), should have bolstered the scepticism the WHO should have had from the outset as regards China!

And when the Chinese wet markets seemingly responsible for not just CV19, but other similar pandemics opened, what did the WHO do? Praise it...


As an organisation tackling Covid-19, the WHO have done little wrong here and I think some people are expecting miracles from them. In addition, they are merely being scapegoated by Trump and the Republicans, who's own actions leave a lot to be desired...and still do.
Cannot agree. They took the word of one of the inhumane regimes on the planet. Ignored warnings dating back from numerous weeks before. And worse still, heaped praise on China for their "transparency?"

As for the stick you're using to measure the success of Trump and the Republicans? Indeed, Trump has not been perfect in his handling of this disease. Some of what he's said has been counter productive to say the least IMHO. But I'd suggest few countries have been perfect in their handling of this unprecedented event.

And to be fair, Trump acted fairly well in some areas. For example he acted against the advice of WHO and restricted flights from China (& other locations) which put the US wisely ahead of the curve. And of course the media and Democrats lambasted this action, even using odd descriptions of it being "racist". And of course this strange virtue signalling angle then led to major Democrats as little as two months ago endorsing hugging Chinese and "congregating in China Town", clearly which is as irresponsible and dangerous as it sounds! Surely those actions (from the press & Democrats) require measuring on the same scale as you deem necessary for the Republicans? ;)

[EvilNed]

And when the Chinese wet markets seemingly responsible for not just CV19, but other similar pandemics opened, what did the WHO do? Praise it...


This is another example of distorted facts. The wet markets have reopened, yes, but they no longer sell wild or live animals. In other words, they are just like any other wet market that you can find in any other country.

As of today, wild animals and live animals are not being bartered in these places.

[Neil]

This is another example of distorted facts. The wet markets have reopened, yes, but they no longer sell wild or live animals. In other words, they are just like any other wet market that you can find in any other country.

As of today, wild animals and live animals are not being bartered in these places.

That's good then... But two points here:-
1) Surely their possible unhygenic conditions is still a risk? Mixing blood and feces etc, and putting that in close/constant contact to humans?
2) Why has it taken X repeated pandemics (seemingly) from them to get to this stage? ;)

^ This is praise worthy actions?

[EvilNed]

That's good then... But two points here:-
1) Surely their possible unhygenic conditions is still a risk? Mixing blood and feces etc, and putting that in close/constant contact to humans?
2) Why has it taken X repeated pandemics (seemingly) from them to get to this stage? ;)

^ This is praise worthy actions?

1) Again, the issue has been specifically wild life and live animals. These are now banned. Wet markets exist the world around.
2) Ask China, not the WHO.

[Neil]

1) Again, the issue has been specifically wild life and live animals. These are now banned.Does that include fish and poulty for example?

Even so, I'd still question sanitation at these "markets. eg:- Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, said last week the coronavirus was a “direct result” of unsanitary markets and said it was “mind-boggling” that the markets remained open.


2) Ask China, not the WHO.The WHO can't make recommendations to China? And couldn't over the past decade or two, after each pandemic that seemingly came out of these sources?

[EvilNed]

Does that include fish and poulty for example?

Even so, I'd still question sanitation at these "markets. eg:- Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, said last week the coronavirus was a “direct result” of unsanitary markets and said it was “mind-boggling” that the markets remained open.

Go to any harbor, anywhere in the world and you'll find a fish market. Paultry is domesticated wildlife and if you want to ban humans co-existing with paultry then you've got to look at a lot of other places besides China. That is a worldwide phenomena. In China's case, the bartering of live paultry has been disbanded in many regions since the bird flu.
What makes Anthony Fauci more trustworthy than WHO in this case?


The WHO can't make recommendations to China? And couldn't over the past decade or two, after each pandemic that seemingly came out of these sources?

I'm sure the WHO has issued recommendations to China since the first SARS outbreak. China can choose to listen or ignore.

[Neil]

So by my calculation, the US will pass one million (tested) infections early next week... I wonder what the true figure is? 10? 20? 50 million? Be fascinating to know!



Go to any harbor, anywhere in the world and you'll find a fish market. Paultry is domesticated wildlife and if you want to ban humans co-existing with paultry then you've got to look at a lot of other places besides China. That is a worldwide phenomena. In China's case, the bartering of live paultry has been disbanded in many regions since the bird flu.
What makes Anthony Fauci more trustworthy than WHO in this case?
Agreed... Can but hope:-
a) China are being honest about their actions towards wet markets.
b) They are effective enough to prevent yet another pandemic from them.

[shootemindehead]

Understood, but are you suggesting China has a reliable history of being open, honest and transparent?

The WHO aren't a political organisation and they wouldn't get anywhere by using cheap political shots at countries they need access to. They're not supposed to be going around and pointing fingers at nations who are deemed to be not "reliable" by other nations or people. If they did, their ability to their job would be curtailed significantly, and they have to be present in countries with much, much, worse reputations than modern day China.


And yet this is how the WHO repeatedly treated them, and indeed congratulated them on. So, no the WHO does not have a crystal ball, but it does not require one to not trust China, or indeed heep praise where is simply does not belong. China knew the disease was spreading, yet tried to hide it, silencing whistle blowers, and indoing so, helped stread it around the globe. The WHO, simply took China at its world and was happy to repeat their rhetoric. Taiwan's input in Dec, along with a string of whistleblower accounts (what has China done to those poor folks!), should have bolstered the scepticism the WHO should have had from the outset as regards China!

The WHO had no real choice BUT to place a certain amount of trust in what China were telling them, as that was where the outbreak was. They had no boots on the ground themselves and wouldn't have until a month and a half after China reported their "pneumonia" outbreak in Wuhan on December 31st.

Not "trusting" China is a political point of view, not a medical or scientific one, which is what the WHO operate on. Starting out by kicking China in the balls would have simply made the Chinese close up and the rest of the world would have been worse off as a result. There is nothing good coming from a scenario like that.

As for praise, this is what Trump, himself, had to say in January:

https://i.ibb.co/b5dMDG7/1.jpg

In February, he said this:

https://i.ibb.co/4m0VdH3/1.jpg

He praised China and President XI on numerous other occasions outside of his overused Twitter account too, up as far as Feb 29th, when he said this, “China seems to be making tremendous progress. Their numbers are way down. … I think our relationship with China is very good.”

Trump later tried to make it out that the WHO weren't doing their job and were too "China centric", whatever that nonsense is supposed to mean...“Had the WHO done its job to get medical experts into China to objectively assess the situation on the ground and to call out China’s lack of transparency, the outbreak could have been contained at its source with very little death”

But this is disingenuous baloney. The WHO weren't even allowed into China until the second week of February and only then could they gather their own facts and start studying the data. So they were unable to make their own assessments before then and just like Trump were reliant on what the Chinese were telling them.

Trump's wholly unreasonable damning of a body like the WHO is simply a way to shift focus away from him and his party's handling of the Coronavirus.


Cannot agree. They took the word of one of the inhumane regimes on the planet. Ignored warnings dating back from numerous weeks before. And worse still, heaped praise on China for their "transparency?"

You don't have to agree.

The problem here though, is that you are willing to side with Trump in his deflection onto the WHO, while at the same time giving him a free pass for praising China and the Chinese President.


As for the stick you're using to measure the success of Trump and the Republicans? Indeed, Trump has not been perfect in his handling of this disease. Some of what he's said has been counter productive to say the least IMHO. But I'd suggest few countries have been perfect in their handling of this unprecedented event.

I don't think anyone has been fully on the ball with Covid-19. How could they? We're dealing with something that the world hasn't seen since the end of the First World War. No other outbreak has been the same. Not the 1958 Flu outbreak. Not SARS. Not MERS. This is a relatively new scenario to everyone involved and no amount of theoretical spread models were going to help with a virus that had some many asymptomatic people walking around. But playing silly and petty politics with an organisation that's at the forefront in fighting the virus, like Trump has done, is just low and unhelpful at the present time to say the very least.

At a time when countries around the world should be seeking to work with the WHO, he's looking to create a division and make some political capital out of it.

[Neil]

The WHO aren't a political organisation and they wouldn't get anywhere by using cheap political shots at countries they need access to.
"Cheap political shots" - We're talking about taking the word of and heralding the actions of one of the most ruthless regimes on the planet? "Cheap political shots"?


,,,willing to side with Trump in his deflection onto the WHOI'm not siding with Trump? Simply pointing out the WHO desperately need reform as they are not fit for purpose. They have shown/demonstrated a partisan relationship with China, which is not what they are funded to do, and is contrary to their mission statement. Indeed it was them dropping the ball in the early stated of CV19.


...while at the same time giving him [Trump] a free pass for praising China and the Chinese President.Fair point, but then where in your examples does Trump in anyway endorse their figures or statements of fact? eg: China saying there was no person to person transmission undoubtly weeks (a month) after they knew better. The WHO repeatedly ignore China's lies, or worse, or fell for their lies, and failed to [try to] investigate on the ground. They even ignored the telling signs of China's inhumane actions of silencing whistle blowers/doctors in their own country by force, which surely is not deserving of the praise of being "transparent"? - https://nypost.com/2020/04/01/whistleblowing-coronavirus-doctor-mysteriously-vanishes/

Do you not think Trump will more than likely hold China accountable at some point too? Quite rightly?


Trump's wholly unreasonable damning of a body like the WHO is simply a way to shift focus away from him and his party's handling of the Coronavirus.Why would he wish to shift focus away from himself and his party's handling of the Coronavirus. Pretty much ticked all the important boxes, indeed even addressing immigration now. I'm assuming by your fair and reasonable comparison, you wouldn't suggest the Democrats virtue signalling hugging Chinese and breaking social distancing recommendations should be heralded as something positive? I have little doubt had Trump done it, that would be used as ammunition rather than strangely ignored by some folks...

By all means Trump has said some questionable things, and/or poorly worded some things, but I'd suggest actions speaker louder than words, and are clearly more important, and his actions when compared to other nations have been good.



NOTE: I fear we are now going in circles ;)

[JDP]

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/04/trump-actually-suggests-injecting-disinfectants-could-cure-coronavirus

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/EfTOgtYnLfcCUAqmlKyZdrrO8A9mdHvO4mncDdmVSia-SR4jMogTJaGx1baNp052Wx0itpBu9O_kMoCBbcg03_1N0BfDyy 5UBYJO767Ul4ruWrfKuc1fK5SEr89d7UDf

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/EnchantingHarmoniousHypacrosaurus-size_restricted.gif

https://afflictor.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/trump9-1.gif

[Neil]

^

This (tactic) seems to appeal to some people, seemingly who get solace in demonising an individual beyond all levels of reason, down to some almost virtuous black and white, right and wrong thinking... I don't quite understand the thinking/approach myself :)

[JDP]

^

This (tactic) seems to appeal to some people, seemingly who get solace in demonising an individual beyond all levels of reason, down to some almost virtuous black and white, right and wrong thinking... I don't quite understand the thinking/approach myself :)

What "tactic"? That's what that buffoon said and implied recently. Nothing more, nothing less. If it doesn't qualify as "certifiable", I don't know what does. The man is not even fit to be president of a high-school club, let alone of an actual entire nation.

[Neil]

What "tactic"? That's what that buffoon said and implied recently. Nothing more, nothing less. If it doesn't qualify as "certifiable", I don't know what does. The man is not even fit to be president of a high-school club, let alone of an actual entire nation.
Fair enough... IMHO though, you're being unrealistic/unfair about matters. I seriously just can't fathom such extreme polarising and demonising. It hits me as almost fanatical TBH.

I might suggest you need to stop taking some press at its word, as much of it is aimed at simply creating hysteria, to keep those hits and $ coming. They literally need to generate outrage to help them survive. Over and over...


Maybe a good time to return to CV19 discussion?

- - - Updated - - -

So, yesterday the UK began trials of a vaccine - http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2020-04-23-oxford-covid-19-vaccine-begins-human-trial-stage

Alas, this still means it's six months (I believe) away from actual use :(

I believe similar trials are being carried in China, the US and Germany?

[EvilNed]

So, yesterday the UK began trials of a vaccine - http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2020-04-23-oxford-covid-19-vaccine-begins-human-trial-stage

Alas, this still means it's six months (I believe) away from actual use :(

I believe similar trials are being carried in China, the US and Germany?

If it's available in 6 months it would be the world record by like 3 years or something like that. Flu vaccines don't count, they are strains of the same virus.

I'd be wary of taking any vaccine that hasn't undergone rigorous human testing. I am not an anti-vaxxer, but vaccines that are rushed to the market can have long term consequences. The swine-flu vaccine caused narcolepsia down the line.

[Neil]

If it's available in 6 months it would be the world record by like 3 years or something like that. It's that long? Eek! I'll swear some of the articles I read implied tests would take six months? Not multiple years?


I'd be wary of taking any vaccine that hasn't undergone rigorous human testing.
Why? What's the problem?

sWEvLBzMpYE

[EvilNed]

It's that long? Eek! I'll swear some of the articles I read implied tests would take six months? Not multiple years?


I am no expert at calculating how long it takes to develop a vaccine, but I've heard from multiple sources that if it took as little as 18 months from the initial stages of development (let's assume January, 2020) then it would be a world record.

HIV has been around for around 40 years, there's still no vaccine and that virus has a 100% mortality rate.
There's no vaccine for either SARS or MERS, both of which are on paper way more dangerous than Covid-19.

Just because something is tested doesn't mean it will work.

[Neil]

HIV has been around for around 40 years, there's still no vaccine and that virus has a 100% mortality rate.

Not so sure about that entirely correct/fair? I believe they are treating high risk groups with drugs that help prevent it being caught. And now at least two people have been "cured" - https://www.livescience.com/second-person-cured-hiv-adam-castillejo.html

[EvilNed]

Not so sure about that entirely correct/fair? I believe they are treating high risk groups with drugs that help prevent it being caught. And now at least two people have been "cured" - https://www.livescience.com/second-person-cured-hiv-adam-castillejo.html

A cure and vaccine are different things.

[Neil]

A cure and vaccine are different things.

Agreed, but as regards "that virus has a 100% mortality rate"...

[EvilNed]

Agreed, but as regards "that virus has a 100% mortality rate"...

Oh. Well it did have for a very long time, at least.

[Neil]

Oh. Well it did have for a very long time, at least.


It's amazing how much of a fairly short term death sentence it initially was, compared to how now, it seems people can live with it for decades. Freddie Mercury died of it fairly early on, but then Holly Johnson was diagnosed with it nearly 30yrs ago!

[EvilNed]

It's amazing how much of a fairly short term death sentence it initially was, compared to how now, it seems people can live with it for decades. Freddie Mercury died of it fairly early on, but then Holly Johnson was diagnosed with it nearly 30yrs ago!

I haven't kept pace with it, but there is a guy who's on Bill Maher sometimes who was diagnosed 17 years ago. So yeah.
But on the other end of the spectrum, they have to be wary not to catch this Covid thing...

[shootemindehead]

These days, it's possible to manage HIV for a long(ish) period. When it becomes full blown AIDS, though, that might be a different story.

[EvilNed]

Why do I say "I haven't kept pace with it" as if I was there when it first erupted in the 80's? I absolutely wasn't.

- - - Updated - - -

For whatever reason that few seem to write about, China has put the city of Harbin into lockdown.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8248709/China-puts-city-10-million-lockdown-detecting-new-outbreak.html

[Neil]

For whatever reason that few seem to write about, China has put the city of Harbin into lockdown.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8248709/China-puts-city-10-million-lockdown-detecting-new-outbreak.html

I would just love to know how truthful China's figures are, and how accurate are the accounts of the position of the virus in their country is... I suspect very not! :)

[shootemindehead]

I'd throw that suspicion on every country. Even Britain are fiddling their numbers. They still aren't counting care home deaths from Covid-19.

[Neil]

I'd throw that suspicion on every country. Even Britain are fiddling their numbers. They still aren't counting care home deaths from Covid-19.

I doubt that's down to the same reasoning/ethos/degree though is it :)

My sister now has suspected symptoms... :/

[shootemindehead]

It's still all about saving face, no matter what country's doing it.

Sorry to hear about your sister. Has she been tested? Hope she's not in the most vulnerable age bracket.

[Neil]

Sorry to hear about your sister. Has she been tested? Hope she's not in the most vulnerable age bracket.
She's the other side of the symptoms now... Suspect it was CV19. Hopefully a test she's having can confirm.

[MinionZombie]

Glad to hear your sister's on the mend by the sounds of it, Neil.

As for figures - I suppose the trouble is that there's no one specific way of counting them. Different countries are counting them according to different specifications, which is a bit silly. Perhaps it'll be one of the things that can be internationally agreed upon once this whole mess is over and a review is done to draw up some proper feckin' guidelines to be followed the next time some horrible virus comes along to screw everything up.

[Neil]

As for figures - I suppose the trouble is that there's no one specific way of counting them. Different countries are counting them according to different specifications, which is a bit silly.

Well, I suspect most test, specifically in the UK, are people being admitted into hospital with symptoms. I suspect that's true tip of the iceburg territory where probably 20-50x (or even more) that number are simply having the symptoms at home, or not even knowing they have it.



Perhaps it'll be one of the things that can be internationally agreed upon once this whole mess is over and a review is done to draw up some proper feckin' guidelines to be followed the next time some horrible virus comes along to screw everything up.This is all new territory with the world not having had a pandemic of this nature for a century, so yes will have to be a learning experience.

[MinionZombie]

This is all new territory with the world not having had a pandemic of this nature for a century, so yes will have to be a learning experience.

Massively so.

And hopefully without the current whiff of arrogance from the hind-sightists ... it's like, well yeah, if you were able to do everything in the now according to the clarity of hindsight (which, at this point, isn't even fully clear hindsight!), then we'd navigate through day-to-day events of the world no probs ... but we can't. There's no doubt been numerous faults in this whole thing, which will need to be rightly and strongly addressed and put into action plans as things to look out for when this next happens, but we've also seen nations and companies and so forth finding ways to adapt and figure out methods to cope under these extreme circumstances (the silliness of humankind aside - e.g. toilet rolls). So it's not all doom and gloom.

[Neil]

Massively so.

And hopefully without the current whiff of arrogance from the hind-sightists ... it's like, well yeah, if you were able to do everything in the now according to the clarity of hindsight (which, at this point, isn't even fully clear hindsight!), then we'd navigate through day-to-day events of the world no probs ... but we can't. There's no doubt been numerous faults in this whole thing, which will need to be rightly and strongly addressed and put into action plans as things to look out for when this next happens, but we've also seen nations and companies and so forth finding ways to adapt and figure out methods to cope under these extreme circumstances (the silliness of humankind aside - e.g. toilet rolls). So it's not all doom and gloom.

Oh we should be honest about all aspects of it. It seems we've had a bit of a let off with this one whichcould easily have been a lot worse. Although slightly more contageous than other flu like diseases, and slightly worse symptoms, it's fatality rate thankfully is much lower that first feared. ie: Well under 1% rather than 3-6%. And indeed we don't need hind sight being used as some tool to comment on response as at the end of the day we had to react based on worse case scenarios.

That said, we need to adjust and maybe start contemplating the current path based one what we're learning. ie: Maybe consider relaxing the lockdown accordingly.

[EvilNed]

Chinese news agency made and released this video:

Q5BZ09iNdvo

[Neil]

Cases retrospectively found in Europe back dating to December - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/04/french-hospital-discovers-covid-19-case-december-retested

- - - Updated - - -


Chinese news agency made and released this video:

Q5BZ09iNdvo

As comical as that is, let's not take the eye of the ball. China lied... And most likely still are...

[Exatreides]

I have volunteered for a two week position in the navajo nation treating COVID-19 patients there as a nurse. I leave Thursday. I'll keep everyone informed

[bassman]

That’s from a legitimate Chinese News Agency? Strange way to use advertisements, but I suppose it’s no worse than some of these political commercials in the US. This one is comical, though.


I have volunteered for a two week position in the navajo nation treating COVID-19 patients there as a nurse. I leave Thursday. I'll keep everyone informed

Internet hand shake, sir. Much respect. Stay safe!

[MinionZombie]

I have volunteered for a two week position in the navajo nation treating COVID-19 patients there as a nurse. I leave Thursday. I'll keep everyone informed

Keep safe, Exatreides! :thumbsup:

[Neil]

I have volunteered for a two week position in the navajo nation treating COVID-19 patients there as a nurse. I leave Thursday. I'll keep everyone informed

Well, good luck and your feedback will be of interest of course. Take care!

[shootemindehead]

I have volunteered for a two week position in the navajo nation treating COVID-19 patients there as a nurse. I leave Thursday. I'll keep everyone informed

Keep safe. It'll be interesting hearing what you have to say when you're done.

[Exatreides]

Today was a travel day, up early and away, a sad goodbye to the beautiful girlfriend the next two weeks :(.

The airport experience was...different and my first time traveling in a COVID-19 world. Security took no time at all, I was the only person there.

Then the ritual pre deployment beer, drank with a pulled aside mask and gulped hurriedly.

Normally I fall asleep on the flight, but it was a bit uncomfortable with the N95. Landed, and switched planes.

Met up with the new team, all of whom seem to be pretty good folks. There's 4 of us on this mission, two nurses, a doc and an NP. We picked up a rental car, made a quick stop at wal mart and headed off.

We we're originally going to work in Gallop but they told us we will be working at a hospital in shiprock instead. Part of any successful disaster response is flexibility, you have to be able to go with the flow, and adjust as needed. Well, I'm a bit nervous on since I haven't done inpatient care in a long time. And Gallup was supposed to be a lower acuity setting. But hey, nerves are normal and I'm sure it will be fine.

We drove first from Albuquerque to Gallup to meet with our team, get some supplies. We had a couple hour discussion with our native American Liaison about culture and history before heading off.

Gallup itself is under lock down, turning folks away without reason to be there (we had a letter).

Another hour and a half driving to get to our air B&B where we will be staying for two weeks, or however long we're needed.

[Neil]

Short lockdown vs long lockdown....

So a lot of folks seem to be implying a much longer lockdown (ealier?) would "save lives", vs a short lockdown?

I'm confused by this thinking. First, let's agree that a lockdown of any sort is aimed at clearly keeping enough infected down to it does not swamp the health system, and secondly that people clearly at risk need longterm isolation fullstop.

But let's run two scenarios considering the other 99% of the population...

Short term lockdown
Individuals X, Y & Z are unknowly at risk, and X catches it before the lockdown starts and unfortunately dies, and after the lockdown stops, Y & Z catch it and unfortunately die.

Long (earlier) Lockdown
Individuals X, Y & Z are unknowly at risk, and the lockdown stops them all from catching CV19. Lockdown ends, the virus contiues to slowly spread, they catch it and unfortunately die.


ie: A lockdown of varying lengths won't really change the number of people who will catch it this year, only when? People who are unknowingly at risk will potentially die from it no matter which scenario.

The only difference between a short term and longterm lockdown IMHO is:-
1) The amount of damaged to the economy. A longer lockdown increases this.
2) The amount of deaths caused to people with cancer and other medical conditions going on the back burner. A longer lockdown increases this.
3) If other treatments come online over the next 3-4 months that means at risk people protected by a longer lockdown can benefit from them.



Thoughts? ;)

[EvilNed]

As you said, any lockdown should only be put in place if it is deemed necessary in order to flatten the curve enough so that it doesn't overload the medical system. Obviously, several places failed at this - Wuhan, Italy, Spain, New York all spring to mind as places from where we've heard horror stories of hospitals filled to the brim, people dying in droves etc.
And the severity of any lockdown should also reflect that particular culture. In all four places mentioned above people live as packed sardines (notice, northern italy is the hardest hit - Milan is a metropolis, southern Italy has nothing quite like it). In addition, all are places with relatively poor health - although for varying reasons. China because of smoking and traffic smog, Italy and Spain because of an elderly population (ironically a sign of relatively GOOD health) and New York because american eating and health habits are disgusting.

So the length and severity of the lockdown should depend from place to place. But a densely urban place like New York obviously needs stricter regulation than rural Montana.

Sweden can operate the way it does because we have a relatively healthy population - most people are fit - and we do not live like packed sardines, not even in the cities. Having said that, we do take poor care of our elderly which is represented in our mortality rates.

By the way, Swedish mortality rates count everyone who has died with the disease, not necessarily from the disease. There's a big distinction. We expect to hit around 25% infection rate in Stockholm by the end of May, which should mean that 25% of people will be immune - at least for a time. What could be possibly hope to achieve by locking down? Our health system is not overburdened. We have had a total of 1670 people who either are receiving, or have received, intensive care. Not an astronomical sum for a country of 10 million.

[Neil]

By the way, Swedish mortality rates count everyone who has died with the disease, not necessarily from the disease.
I hear that' shappening in the US too in some cases? Even without a test for CV19?

[Exatreides]

Day one: Day one yesterday was an odd day, but the first day of treating patients. The first half consisted entirely of onboarding with the Indian health systems, finger printing, hippa training ect, meeting coders, medical records ect. It was long, tedious. I thought nextgen was a bad electronic charting system. Indian health ehr is almost DoS like.

Originally I was supposed to work in the low acuity alternative care site. That's not open yet, so I'm outside in the triage tent helping screen folks. It seems my fate in any pandemic is to wear ppe outside, in the heat. While Ebola had much more intense PPE for maybe an hour or two, this is less intense PPE for much longer. Its very hot, and we had a near constant stream of cars from my arrival at 3pm till I left at 7pm.

We had a couple cases non covid related, a head wound, a cat bite, and a stomach pain. But everyone else was covid, covid, covid.

Contact tracing normally focusses on an individual, however due to Navajo culture, whole families, 3 or 4 generations may live together in small homes. So the idea is family tracking instead. The outbreak continues upwards here, with the Navajo nation instituting a curfew from friday 8pm to monday 5am. All those who violate face a $1,000 fine.

It's not severely complicated work, just getting vitals, moving folks from the parking lot in a wheelchair up a hill, and into the ER. Tech work, but hey it's helping and the staff here is incredibly grateful for the help. The alternative care site to house folks is a gymnasium near here. If I'm here, or there doesn't matter as long as we're helping out.

[Neil]

So a UK report possibly backing up US reports that far more people have had CV19 than expected - https://www.manchester.ac.uk/discover/news/over-25-of-the-uk-likely-to-have-had-covid-19-already/


eg: Over 25% of the UK may already have had it?

[bassman]

Has anyone else followed the recent reports of Covid19 connections to Vitamin D? Apparently there is strong evidence that whether or not your body is sufficiently stocked with Vitamin D can have a serious effect on how you handle the disease. It can mean the difference between life and death if you have the virus, and can even help prevent contraction of it.

It’s being reported out of several reputable sources/news, and Joe Rogan recently had a guest Doctor on his podcast in which they go in-depth on the subject. It’s a good listen!

[ProfessorChaos]

^

we drink a boatload of milk around my place, particularly my son. that's good news, i suppose.

[Neil]

So London is now down to twenty odd new cases a day...

Now, with social distancing be harder there than other places, how is it now so low? My theory is simply so many people have now had it, that's also helping the figure drop... ie: 25%+ of Londoners may now have had it so can't suffer from it or spread it!?



Has anyone else followed the recent reports of Covid19 connections to Vitamin D? Apparently there is strong evidence that whether or not your body is sufficiently stocked with Vitamin D can have a serious effect on how you handle the disease. It can mean the difference between life and death if you have the virus, and can even help prevent contraction of it.

It’s being reported out of several reputable sources/news, and Joe Rogan recently had a guest Doctor on his podcast in which they go in-depth on the subject. It’s a good listen!

Been taking daily vit D suppliments daily now for months...

Bga_qG30JyY

[EvilNed]

So London is now down to twenty odd new cases a day...

Now, with social distancing be harder there than other places, how is it now so low? My theory is simply so many people have now had it, that's also helping the figure drop... ie: 25%+ of Londoners may now have had it so can't suffer from it or spread it!?




Been taking daily vit D suppliments daily now for months...

Bga_qG30JyY

Thanks for this, very interesting.

[Neil]

Missed the report last week, that London seemingly had one day of no new infections? Beggars belief TBH, and I just can't believe the lock down is responsible for that. I think the virus has simply infected a buck load more people than we think, so it's not spread much in conjunction with the lockdown.

[bassman]

It’s astonishing how people around here are reacting to this virus. If I have to go out to a store, I’d estimate that maybe 25% of people are wearing their masks. The majority of people around here flat out call the virus a hoax(thanks Trump). In fact, yesterday there were posts all over social media about a “National no mask day”. Smh

Of course the US is also in turmoil because of the recent race equality protests, which I support, but a majority of them are ignoring safety guidelines and giving the virus a massive platform to spread. I sincerely hope not, but I feel like the second wave we’re expecting in a couple months will be extremely devastating...

[JDP]

It’s astonishing how people around here are reacting to this virus. If I have to go out to a store, I’d estimate that maybe 25% of people are wearing their masks. The majority of people around here flat out call the virus a hoax(thanks Trump). In fact, yesterday there were posts all over social media about a “National no mask day”. Smh

Of course the US is also in turmoil because of the recent race equality protests, which I support, but a majority of them are ignoring safety guidelines and giving the virus a massive platform to spread. I sincerely hope not, but I feel like the second wave we’re expecting in a couple months will be extremely devastating...

The "second wave" has pretty much already started in some places.

I talked to a guy I know from way back in high school the other day, whom I hadn't heard from in several years since he moved to LA. To my surprise, the guy has mutated into a Trumpian, and he is also convinced that the virus is a "hoax", and also that George Floyd is really in Aruba sipping cocktails with the four cops that supposedly killed him, all of them enjoying big fat checks from George Soros. Yes, folks, the Trumpians are really like that, they are not an exaggerated figment of the media's imagination. They truly believe all this kind of nonsense conspiracy theories.

[Neil]

The "second wave" has pretty much already started in some places.

A second wave is to be expected. The question simply is how big. I suspect it will not be very big...

[Tricky]

It’s astonishing how people around here are reacting to this virus. If I have to go out to a store, I’d estimate that maybe 25% of people are wearing their masks. The majority of people around here flat out call the virus a hoax(thanks Trump). In fact, yesterday there were posts all over social media about a “National no mask day”. Smh

Of course the US is also in turmoil because of the recent race equality protests, which I support, but a majority of them are ignoring safety guidelines and giving the virus a massive platform to spread. I sincerely hope not, but I feel like the second wave we’re expecting in a couple months will be extremely devastating...

At least we know how it would play out when the "zombie virus" strikes, people piling round to each others houses for family BBQ's and teenagers meeting up for parties in huge groups and getting themselves bit :rolleyes: This pandemic will have written the plots for a whole new generation of disaster/outbreak movies with social commentary!

[JDP]

At least we know how it would play out when the "zombie virus" strikes, people piling round to each others houses for family BBQ's and teenagers meeting up for parties in huge groups and getting themselves bit :rolleyes: This pandemic will have written the plots for a whole new generation of disaster/outbreak movies with social commentary!

Interestingly, in Dawn Romero had already anticipated irresponsible public behavior during a zombie pandemic, which only ends up making matters worse. That's what the whole opening sequence at the TV station is about: for three weeks a lot of people have not been paying attention to what the authorities have been informing about how the zombie situation had to be best dealt with in order to make their numbers dwindle.

[MinionZombie]

Interestingly, in Dawn Romero had already anticipated irresponsible public behavior during a zombie pandemic, which only ends up making matters worse. That's what the whole opening sequence at the TV station is about: for three weeks a lot of people have not been paying attention to what the authorities have been informing about how the zombie situation had to be best dealt with in order to make their numbers dwindle.

Yep. The tenement where people are refusing to give up their dead, having hidden them from the authorities ... or the TV station continuing to run out-of-date information (sending people to rescue stations that are no longer operational, thereby likely killing many people). The yahoos out for a good time shooting zombies, treating it like a lark and boozing on beer. Then you've got the anarchic elements with the biker gang looting and pillaging.

Romero nailed so many things with Dawn of the Dead. It's been a while since I last saw it (although by this point I have seen it coming up on forty times), but I'm looking forward to Second Sight's juicy deluxe box set later in the year (got mine pre-ordered).

[Neil]

...but I'm looking forward to Second Sight's juicy deluxe box set later in the year (got mine pre-ordered).

£65-80 is kinda steep don't you think? :(

[shootemindehead]

Yeh, there's no way in hell I'd be laying down any money like that without seeing examples of the transfer first.

- - - Updated - - -


At least we know how it would play out when the "zombie virus" strikes, people piling round to each others houses for family BBQ's and teenagers meeting up for parties in huge groups and getting themselves bit :rolleyes: This pandemic will have written the plots for a whole new generation of disaster/outbreak movies with social commentary!

Mmmmm. You know, I used to think that society breaking down so fast because of slow moving dead people was incredibly an silly (if enjoyable) premise.

These days, after witnessing the sheer pigheaded stupidity of people during Covid over the last few months, I'm not so sure any more.

[Tricky]

Yeh, there's no way in hell I'd be laying down any money like that without seeing examples of the transfer first.

- - - Updated - - -



Mmmmm. You know, I used to think that society breaking down so fast because of slow moving dead people was incredibly an silly (if enjoyable) premise.

These days, after witnessing the sheer pigheaded stupidity of people during Covid over the last few months, I'm not so sure any more.

Exactly, the plots are writing themselves over the last few months. Replace COVID-19 for a zombie virus, throw in mass protests of people whining about losing their liberties due to government lockdown and the people who believe the government are making it up or exaggerating the risk in order to "control" us, and those who just refuse to stick to the rules out of selfishness and you've got the backstory to the film in the bag. It's kind of how it plays out in "The Last Of Us" games to be honest when you find letters and documents that date back to the initial outbreak dotted around.

[MinionZombie]

£65-80 is kinda steep don't you think? :(

Mine is pre-ordered at £65 for now (it may come down further). It's more than I'd normally like to pay, but then again it's one of my top ten films, I don't have it on Blu-Ray, and the set does include quite a bit of stuff. Two books, three audio CDs, new extras, new transfers in HD of Theatrical/Extended/European cuts etc.

[EvilNed]

but I'm looking forward to Second Sight's juicy deluxe box set later in the year (got mine pre-ordered).

You god damn right.


£65-80 is kinda steep don't you think? :(

It depends on how you look at it. The 80 pound one is the UHD, and you're bound to never ever have to buy the film again. I doubt we'll see the ascendancy of another format beyond 4k - especially since 4k in itself is arguably not worth it for home cinema use. For many people the BluRay will suffice. In addition it's a collectors box set. You could buy it now and sell it for profit next year, if that's your thing...

[MinionZombie]

You god damn right.



It depends on how you look at it. The 80 pound one is the UHD, and you're bound to never ever have to buy the film again. I doubt we'll see the ascendancy of another format beyond 4k - especially since 4k in itself is arguably not worth it for home cinema use. For many people the BluRay will suffice. In addition it's a collectors box set. You could buy it now and sell it for profit next year, if that's your thing...

The old Arrow Video release from about a decade ago is being sold on for silly money in some places, or for about 50% profit generally these days.

I've got the Blu-Ray pre-ordered. Don't have 4K. See little point in it for the home (you just won't get the value out of it unless it's on a ginormous screen).

[Tricky]

Mine is pre-ordered at £65 for now (it may come down further). It's more than I'd normally like to pay, but then again it's one of my top ten films, I don't have it on Blu-Ray, and the set does include quite a bit of stuff. Two books, three audio CDs, new extras, new transfers in HD of Theatrical/Extended/European cuts etc.

One thing I would love to see is a frame by frame remake of Dawn '78 but with Walking Dead quality make up and special effects on the zombies. No rewriting of the plot, no running zombies, no wokeness etc. I love the original but the more time passes the more the blue make up zombies and some of the gore effects become a bit laughable. They do have a retro charm though.

[MinionZombie]

One thing I would love to see is a frame by frame remake of Dawn '78 but with Walking Dead quality make up and special effects on the zombies. No rewriting of the plot, no running zombies, no wokeness etc. I love the original but the more time passes the more the blue make up zombies and some of the gore effects become a bit laughable. They do have a retro charm though.

I think the 'blue' nature of the zombies will be addressed in this new restoration with some colour correction. I think the DP was involved. When they were shooting they were going for grey, but sometimes it would photograph different shades of blue unintended. I seem to recall reading something about that, them trying to colour time it better to match what they were trying to shoot at the time (in terms of zombie skin colour). Unless I'm imaginging reading that.

[EvilNed]

The old Arrow Video release from about a decade ago is being sold on for silly money in some places, or for about 50% profit generally these days.

I've got the Blu-Ray pre-ordered. Don't have 4K. See little point in it for the home (you just won't get the value out of it unless it's on a ginormous screen).

I'm on the fence about 4k. I think I might pick it up and get myself a player. There's so many other releases coming out. Might get Zombie and House by the Cemetary in 4k as well, as those restorations were stellar. Curious to see what they'd look like. Now with Cinema Paradiso, Flash Gordon and Pitch Black from Arrow there's a few that pique my interest.

[shootemindehead]

I still laugh at the idea that you can get 'Zombie Flesh Eaters' in a 4K restoration, when you couldn't see it for love nor money between 1984 and 2000. Unless you went to a country where you could buy it on video, which wasn't an easy prospect either.

[JDP]

I still laugh at the idea that you can get 'Zombie Flesh Eaters' in a 4K restoration, when you couldn't see it for love nor money between 1984 and 2000. Unless you went to a country where you could buy it on video, which wasn't an easy prospect either.

That's because of the "video nasty" thingy going on in the UK in those times, but in some other parts of the world the uncut movie was pretty easy to find. I remember seeing that movie for the first time around 1982, a Betamax version that a friend of one of my brothers lent us. There were no cuts whatsoever, everything was there: nudity, maggots/worms, splinter in the eye, zombies munching on Mrs. Menards' corpse, throat/arm/face rippings, smashed/exploding/bullet-perforated zombie heads, etc.

[shootemindehead]

That's because of the "video nasty" thingy going on in the UK in those times

Yeh, I know. People were getting put in jail for selling copies of it. :duh:


but in some other parts of the world the uncut movie was pretty easy to find.

Damn near impossible in a lot of European countries. Believe me, I tried. At one stage I had friends in Barcelona, Paris, Rome and Cologne trying to find a copy on VHS for me. None of them could.


I remember seeing that movie for the first time around 1982, a Betamax version that a friend of one of my brothers lent us. There were no cuts whatsoever, everything was there: nudity, maggots/worms, splinter in the eye, zombies munching on Mrs. Menards' corpse, throat/arm/face rippings, smashed/exploding/bullet-perforated zombie heads, etc.

It was probably around 83 or 84 when I first saw parts of it, as a kid, before it vanished from the shelves. I was always intrigued by that cover.

https://www.hidefninja.com/community/attachments/zombie-flesh-eaters-cropped-jpg.187114/

But it wasn't until the mid 90's that I was able to see the whole thing, which I managed by writing to some guy in Northern Ireland to buy some illegal copies of horror movies off of him. Got his PO box from the back of a mag called 'The Darkside' - the Brits on here will know that I'm sure. Ended up with a 4th or 5th gen bootleg that was reasonably watchable.

It's funny, I was kinda unimpressed, because I'd built the film up in my head so much over 10+ years, I spose. I enjoy it more today than I did back then though.

It will probably be always impossible to knock 'Day of the Dead' off of the "Best zombie movie ever" top spot, in any case.

[EvilNed]

Day of the Dead and Dawn have first and second spot for me, for sure. Zombie Flesh Eater is easily in the top 10, however, and probably in the Top 5 as well. Other contesters are [REC], 28 Days Later, The Living Dead at the Manchester Morgue, Children Shouldn't Play with Dead Things, NOTLD and Tombs of the Blind Dead.

Actually, that's just 1 shy of 10. So the final pick is... Return of the Living Dead.

[JDP]

Yeh, I know. People were getting put in jail for selling copies of it. :duh:



Damn near impossible in a lot of European countries. Believe me, I tried. At one stage I had friends in Barcelona, Paris, Rome and Cologne trying to find a copy on VHS for me. None of them could.



It was probably around 83 or 84 when I first saw parts of it, as a kid, before it vanished from the shelves. I was always intrigued by that cover.

https://www.hidefninja.com/community/attachments/zombie-flesh-eaters-cropped-jpg.187114/

But it wasn't until the mid 90's that I was able to see the whole thing, which I managed by writing to some guy in Northern Ireland to buy some illegal copies of horror movies off of him. Got his PO box from the back of a mag called 'The Darkside' - the Brits on here will know that I'm sure. Ended up with a 4th or 5th gen bootleg that was reasonably watchable.

It's funny, I was kinda unimpressed, because I'd built the film up in my head so much over 10+ years, I spose. I enjoy it more today than I did back then though.

It will probably be always impossible to knock 'Day of the Dead' off of the "Best zombie movie ever" top spot, in any case.

LOL! What an odyssey to get just one movie!

Back in those times they also tried to impose something similar in the US but with music, actually, not movies. They were called "The Filthy 15" originally, and it ended up with that whole "Parental Advisory: Explicit Lyrics" stickers being put on records, tapes and CDs in the 80s and 90s.

[shootemindehead]

LOL! What an odyssey to get just one movie!

You have no idea. :o

When I first went to New York, I came back with about 30 films. None of which I could find over here. Even surprising titles like 'Death Wish' were unavailable for years on video this side of the pond. All of which I can get delivered to my house nowadays from Amazon on Blu-ray, which would blow an NTSC VHS video out of the water any day of the week as far as quality is concerned. Pfffft, I can download them in a few minutes if I wanted to.

There used to be a shop called "Kims" down on Bleecker Street in New York City. It's gone now, unfortunately, but it was like going to Mecca. They had nearly everything. So I came back with 'The Texas Chainsaw Massacre', 'A Clockwork Orange', 'The Exorcist' and a whole host of stuff. Feckin bag weighed a ton, but this was before the days of weighing bags for air travel.


Back in those times they also tried to impose something similar in the US but with music, actually, not movies. They were called "The Filthy 15" originally, and it ended up with that whole "Parental Advisory: Explicit Lyrics" stickers being put on records, tapes and CDs in the 80s and 90s.

Yeh, that was the PMRC. Tipper Gore and a load of busy bodies bitches wrecking everyone's enjoyment. I was into the Dead Kennedys, so I picked up on all that nonsense. Ridiculous silliness altogether. As if banning something will make it go away. All too often it just makes it MORE collectible. When those "Parental Advisory" stickers were slapped onto records, it made it doubly cool for kids to buy. :lol: They even made T-Shirts with the logo on them. Some of that vinyl from the 80's with the original stickers on goes for a fortune today.

That's what the internet destroyed and I'm glad of it too. Arseholes can try and censor stuff all they want now, but I can order it from somewhere else on the planet and there's bugger all they can do about it.

[Tricky]

It's funny, I was kinda unimpressed, because I'd built the film up in my head so much over 10+ years, I spose. I enjoy it more today than I did back then though.

It will probably be always impossible to knock 'Day of the Dead' off of the "Best zombie movie ever" top spot, in any case.

I felt like that about The Exorcist when I finally watched it sometime around '99/2000. For years I'd been hearing about how terrifying and controversial it was and that's why it was banned, but when I finally watched it myself I was a bit underwhelmed. It was ok but I was neither terrified or particularly shocked by it. I can see why it was controversial at the time of its original release though.

[shootemindehead]

I felt like that about The Exorcist when I finally watched it sometime around '99/2000. For years I'd been hearing about how terrifying and controversial it was and that's why it was banned, but when I finally watched it myself I was a bit underwhelmed. It was ok but I was neither terrified or particularly shocked by it. I can see why it was controversial at the time of its original release though.

I think I first saw 'The Exorcist' around 1986. In fact, I think I rented that and 'Day of the Dead' together strangely enough. I remember enjoying it, but wondering what all the fuss was about and also wondering how the crucifix scene could ever reconsidered "masturbation".

Today, I think 'The Exorcist' is one of the masterpieces of horror cinema though. It's just played so well by everyone and it draws you in so completely, which makes it's hokey story so believable. In fact, I wish more directors of horror movies (and movies in general) would take a more serious approach to their stories.

[MinionZombie]

I felt like that about The Exorcist when I finally watched it sometime around '99/2000. For years I'd been hearing about how terrifying and controversial it was and that's why it was banned, but when I finally watched it myself I was a bit underwhelmed. It was ok but I was neither terrified or particularly shocked by it. I can see why it was controversial at the time of its original release though.


I think I first saw 'The Exorcist' around 1986. In fact, I think I rented that and 'Day of the Dead' together strangely enough. I remember enjoying it, but wondering what all the fuss was about and also wondering how the crucifix scene could ever reconsidered "masturbation".

Today, I think 'The Exorcist' is one of the masterpieces of horror cinema though. It's just played so well by everyone and it draws you in so completely, which makes it's hokey story so believable. In fact, I wish more directors of horror movies (and movies in general) would take a more serious approach to their stories.

Yeah. First time I saw The Exorcist was on a 3rd generation dub not long after the BBFC had finally allowed it to be released in the UK after James Ferman (Director of the BBFC) had left (he was vehement that it would never be released on video in the UK, and kind of enjoyed having that power over Warner Bros.) - but within weeks of his departure it was on UK shelves. Anyway, I finally saw it, but found it a bit of a chore at the time - but I was only 15, and wasn't much keen on gradual build ups and so on. However, several years later I re-watched it and thought it was fantastic. I then saw the Director's Cut, but frankly it's inferior to the theatrical version (all those silly 'subliminal' images of the demon's face, and the big 'spider walk' scene is really best left as a deleted scene extra on a disc as a curio).

I've found myself getting more and more out of certain films as I've got older. For example, I liked L.A. Confidential when I first saw it in my mid-teens, but wasn't too blown away by it and didn't quite 'get it'. However, several years later I re-watched it and enjoyed it far more, and have seen it a few times since then and now I love it.

[EvilNed]

I felt like that about The Exorcist when I finally watched it sometime around '99/2000. For years I'd been hearing about how terrifying and controversial it was and that's why it was banned, but when I finally watched it myself I was a bit underwhelmed. It was ok but I was neither terrified or particularly shocked by it. I can see why it was controversial at the time of its original release though.

Just saw that two or three years ago for the first time, and I was underwhelmed. The horror in it doesn't scare me at all.

[MinionZombie]

Just saw that two or three years ago for the first time, and I was underwhelmed. The horror in it doesn't scare me at all.

Aye, the movie never scared me, but in more recent viewings it does creep me out. The priest's nightmare (with his mother speaking, but he can't hear her, and she's going down into that subway stairwell) is quite unsettling, and the general tone of the movie.

I do remember my Dad telling me that he went to see it with some of his mates when it first came out (it did actually make it to UK cinemas in the early 1970s, before it was then ostensibly outlawed on video in the 1980s) ... anyway, he said that about mid-way he and his mates decided to pack it in and get to the pub in time for last orders, rather than see the rest of the movie, haha! I'd have stayed for the rest of the film, personally. :D

[shootemindehead]

I then saw the Director's Cut, but frankly it's inferior to the theatrical version (all those silly 'subliminal' images of the demon's face, and the big 'spider walk' scene is really best left as a deleted scene extra on a disc as a curio).

Yes. The original cut all the way for me.

This has become an increasing issue with movies though. Often these extended cuts and director's cuts are inferior to what was originally edited. 'Apocalypse Now Redux' will never beat the theatrical cut. 'The Big Red One' reconstruction cut will always pale in comparison to the original 1980 version. 'Maniac Cop' in it's original running time plays better than its extended cut, and so on. They all have interesting scenes, but when packaged into the theatrical cut, they often don't work.

The only truly successful "director's cut", and the one which start this whole nonsense off, was 'Aliens', which genuinely added to the story, without looking off or silly. There are others which work to certain degrees, but by and large they're failures.


I've found myself getting more and more out of certain films as I've got older. For example, I liked L.A. Confidential when I first saw it in my mid-teens, but wasn't too blown away by it and didn't quite 'get it'. However, several years later I re-watched it and enjoyed it far more, and have seen it a few times since then and now I love it.

He's persona non grata now, but there's a scene in that film with Spacey where he suddenly gets shot that shows just what a great actor he could be. The surprise and subsequent realisation all delivered on his face is brilliant. His only words being Rollo Tomasi.

[MinionZombie]

Yes. The original cut all the way for me.

This has become an increasing issue with movies though. Often these extended cuts and director's cuts are inferior to what was originally edited. 'Apocalypse Now Redux' will never beat the theatrical cut. 'The Big Red One' reconstruction cut will always pale in comparison to the original 1980 version. 'Maniac Cop' in it's original running time plays better than its extended cut, and so on. They all have interesting scenes, but when packaged into the theatrical cut, they often don't work.

The only truly successful "director's cut", and the one which start this whole nonsense off, was 'Aliens', which genuinely added to the story, without looking off or silly. There are others which work to certain degrees, but by and large they're failures.



He's persona non grata now, but there's a scene in that film with Spacey where he suddenly gets shot that shows just what a great actor he could be. The surprise and subsequent realisation all delivered on his face is brilliant. His only words being Rollo Tomasi.

Some DCs are good curios - and there's some good stuff in AN: Redux, but good lord, that whole French plantation segment is way too fucking long and absolutely stalls the movie just when you're ready to get to the third act - although sometimes it depends on which version I saw first.

The Director's Cut / Final Cut of Blade Runner is where it's at for me. I can't watch the original theatrical cut. That god-awful voice over and studio tinkering.

Aliens - I first saw it as the DC, and then I saw the theatrical cut and I missed all those additional scenes. However, I'd argue that T2's DC is inferior to the theatrical version. There's nothing really that's added into T2's DC that seems all that worthwhile. It might explain the odd thing a smidge better (e.g. the T-1000 being able to 'read' the environment with its fingertips, or more of it 'breaking down' in the steel factory), but I never found much of it truly adding to the film (although it was nice to get Kyle Reese back, if only for a scene).

RE: L.A. Confidential...
And how he was able to get his eyes to 'go dead', somehow managing to seague from looking at the other actor to a little "X" on the wall so seamlessly. Talented actor, but it seems that he's a scumbag of a person.

I'd argue that Snyder's DCs of Watchmen and BvS are both decidedly better than the theatrical cuts. In both cases there's much more room to breathe for the story, there's less of a muddled rush going on, and they generally feel shorter even though they're longer.

[EvilNed]

I may be alone in this, but the next time I'm watching Aliens I think I'll pop the theatrical version in. Having rewatched the Director's Cut I understand why they felt the need to trim all those parts out. I think they're supposed to be suspensful, but they're not really. And damn does it slow the film down.

Kingdom of Heaven was also superior in it's director's cut form, though neither was great.

Troy Directors Cut is too long, but I that's not entirely down to the fault of the cut itself. The script is just not very exciting - the character closest to the audience is killed with half-an-hour to go leaving us not really caring how it ends.

Gladiator DC is inferior to the TC...

Agreed on Watchmen, however. The DC is perfect.

[shootemindehead]

The Director's Cut / Final Cut of Blade Runner is where it's at for me. I can't watch the original theatrical cut. That god-awful voice over and studio tinkering.

Well, I actually much prefer the original cut of 'Blade Runner', even with Ford's voice over, which I think lends an air of film noir to the whole thing. Never really understood all the hate it gets, when its just the same type of device that's been used in any number of noir productions since the 40's, from 'The Maltese Falcon', to 'L.A. Confidential'.


Aliens - I first saw it as the DC, and then I saw the theatrical cut and I missed all those additional scenes. However, I'd argue that T2's DC is inferior to the theatrical version. There's nothing really that's added into T2's DC that seems all that worthwhile. It might explain the odd thing a smidge better (e.g. the T-1000 being able to 'read' the environment with its fingertips, or more of it 'breaking down' in the steel factory), but I never found much of it truly adding to the film (although it was nice to get Kyle Reese back, if only for a scene).

I don't think I've seen the original cut of 'Aliens' since the 80's. Can't imagine it now without the DC's added material.

As for 'T2', I was never really a fan and always thought that film was a bit stupid, so a DC of it doesn't interest me. One thing I would be in favour of, if it was handled correctly, would be to go back and put in better effects on 'The Terminator' though. If done well, CGI could be applied perfectly there.


RE: L.A. Confidential...
And how he was able to get his eyes to 'go dead', somehow managing to seague from looking at the other actor to a little "X" on the wall so seamlessly. Talented actor, but it seems that he's a scumbag of a person.

Yeh, it's brilliant. Shame about Spacey, if the allegations are to be believed. For a while there, he could do no wrong as an actor. String of great films in the 90's. That scene is one of cinema's greats, IMO. It's a real "oooh shit" moment that you'll never forget. I didn't see it coming either.


I'd argue that Snyder's DCs of Watchmen and BvS are both decidedly better than the theatrical cuts. In both cases there's much more room to breathe for the story, there's less of a muddled rush going on, and they generally feel shorter even though they're longer.

Perhaps. I never saw the original cuts, so I don't know. I don't really consider them to be that good anyway, so it would be neither here nor there for me.

[Mike70]

*cough, cough* there was a time when the PM's on here were alive with the sounds of trading. I've traded or mailed stuff to a bunch of y'all over the years. Dead Set was just one thing that got traded through here when it first came out because it wasn't available on this side of the pond. An assload of comics got moved around on here via PM too.

[JDP]

A second wave is to be expected. The question simply is how big. I suspect it will not be very big...

"Second wave" so far seems pretty big in the US. It's starting to hit Florida, California and Texas with a vengeance. And with irresponsible imbeciles like these loose in the world, it is no wonder:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/02/us/alabama-coronavirus-parties-trnd/index.html

[EvilNed]

*cough, cough* there was a time when the PM's on here were alive with the sounds of trading. I've traded or mailed stuff to a bunch of y'all over the years. Dead Set was just one thing that got traded through here when it first came out because it wasn't available on this side of the pond. An assload of comics got moved around on here via PM too.

I didn't know that. I trade sometimes still, though mostly through facebook these days.

[EvilNed]

It's interesting how articles like this:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/07/business/sweden-economy-coronavirus.html

Paint Sweden as some form of country in despair. Well, I have to say life here is pretty much going on as if nothing has happened. Even the stock market has made a remarkeable recovery, thanks in a huge part to all the stimulus packages (and the payment is due next year).
There was an enormous strain on the hospitals during the peak months of April and May, but since then everything has slowly calmed down.
Meanwhile, many other countries (most of which closed down) are now reporting an increase in daily new cases again. Not so in Sweden.

Thanks in parts to the general well being of the average swedish citizen of course.

[Neil]

It's interesting how articles like this:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/07/business/sweden-economy-coronavirus.html

Paint Sweden as some form of country in despair. Well, I have to say life here is pretty much going on as if nothing has happened. Even the stock market has made a remarkeable recovery, thanks in a huge part to all the stimulus packages (and the payment is due next year).
There was an enormous strain on the hospitals during the peak months of April and May, but since then everything has slowly calmed down.
Meanwhile, many other countries (most of which closed down) are now reporting an increase in daily new cases again. Not so in Sweden.

Thanks in parts to the general well being of the average swedish citizen of course.

The press blowing things unfairly out of proportion for alarmism? Surely not?

While we can't compare other Western countries blindly with Sweden, we can take some information from it etc. I think the lesson is, with 20-20 hindsight, that while taking precautions for the initial hit/spike was prudent, most areas could ease up far quicker that they have. ie: Overall, most areas have been too cautious.

Agree? Disagree?

[MinionZombie]

The press blowing things unfairly out of proportion for alarmism? Surely not?

While we can't compare other Western countries blindly with Sweden, we can take some information from it etc. I think the lesson is, with 20-20 hindsight, that while taking precautions for the initial hit/spike was prudent, most areas could ease up far quicker that they have. ie: Overall, most areas have been too cautious.

Agree? Disagree?

In the UK, for instance, I think the decision making has been far too slow - i.e. lockdown should have come earlier, the farce with flights and people entering the country, and they should have been truthful about masks (i.e. don't wear them because we don't have enough of them! - but then, during lockdown, get companies producing masks for public purchase for when lockdown was lifted) etc etc etc.

The messaging has been piss poor, too. Either overly-complicated where it isn't necessary, or brashly stupid and simplistic when it needs to be nuanced. Doesn't help you have chumps who set rules and then break them themselves, as well. You need clear and concise leadership, not a load of bluster and "oh yeah, whatever, it'll be fine" say one thing one day and say the opposite a few days later etc.

[Neil]

In the UK, for instance, I think the decision making has been far too slow - i.e. lockdown should have come earlier, the farce with flights and people entering the country, and they should have been truthful about masks (i.e. don't wear them because we don't have enough of them! - but then, during lockdown, get companies producing masks for public purchase for when lockdown was lifted) etc etc etc.

The messaging has been piss poor, too. Either overly-complicated where it isn't necessary, or brashly stupid and simplistic when it needs to be nuanced. Doesn't help you have chumps who set rules and then break them themselves, as well. You need clear and concise leadership, not a load of bluster and "oh yeah, whatever, it'll be fine" say one thing one day and say the opposite a few days later etc.
As regards the UK locking down too slowly, as you suggest...

If we go by the understanding that most people in the UK are going to get CV19 by the end of this year, the earliest any vaccine is likely to even be getting to us, then IMHO the most ideal policy would be to allow as many (not at risk people) to get it, as soon and as quickly and as possible, while not stretching the capacity of the NHS.

With this in mind, doing much of anything until high numbers were hit (eg: blocking flights, going into a full lockdown) was a waste of time. ie: You almost want to accelerate towards high numbers to get people through infection ASAP. Once you reach high numbers then put the breaks on for a while, and then start to ease up (lockdown) ensuring you don't peak and put the NHS risk again.

If we'd locked down on the sight of the first infections, and prevented all incoming travel, all this would have done is stopped people from getting it, at huge economic expense, only to in fact mean when the lockdown was eased, then the very same people you'd prevented from initially getting it, then get it...

The gut reaction is to close down as soon as possible, as hard as possible, for as long as possible. But to my thinking this doesn't achieve much other than huge unnecessary economic cost.



On a similar note people complain why only now are masks being suggested? Again, the gut reaction is to do as much as possible as soon as possible, but now social distancing has been relaxed, NOW masks make sense, and it means people haven't been unnecessarily using them (wasting them) and been inconvenienced with them, while less social interaction was taking place. Now people are interacting far more, so masks NOW make more sense.

[JDP]

https://abc7ny.com/covid-party-19-death-coronavirus/6312899/

A San Antonio doctor said one of her hospital's patients, a 30-year-old man, died after attending a so-called "COVID party" -- a bizarre trend where young people intentionally get together with someone who's infected.

Dr. Jane Appleby, chief medical officer for Methodist Hospital and Methodist Children's Hospital, said the patient thought the coronavirus pandemic was a hoax.

"He thought he was young and he was invincible and wouldn't get affected ... One of the things that was heart-wrenching that he said to his nurse was, 'I think I made a mistake,'"...

No shit, Sherlock! A "hoax" :lol: At least this irresponsible dipshit won't be contributing to spread this crap around anymore. "Good riddance!", I say.

[shootemindehead]

"covid party"

Jesus wept... :rolleyes:

[EvilNed]

The press blowing things unfairly out of proportion for alarmism? Surely not?

While we can't compare other Western countries blindly with Sweden, we can take some information from it etc. I think the lesson is, with 20-20 hindsight, that while taking precautions for the initial hit/spike was prudent, most areas could ease up far quicker that they have. ie: Overall, most areas have been too cautious.

Agree? Disagree?

Well, I keep coming back to the fact that Sweden's overall level of health is relatively high. Most Swedes "keep in shape" and obesity is fairly uncommon here compared to UK, US and Spain. This appears to make the populace more endurable to the disease. Can't imagine there's a high number of obese people in Taiwan, South Korea or Japan either and these have pulled through fairly well, right?

So I think the lesson we should take away from this is; Staying healthy is very important!

[JDP]

Another conspiracy theorist knucklehead learns the lesson the hard way:

https://www.dhbusinessledger.com/news/20200731/this-disease-is-not-a-joke-lake-zurich-man-thought-covid-19-was-a-hoax-then-needed-new-lungs

A "hoax" :lol:

[JDP]

Yet another irresponsible paranoid nincompoop who only ends up contributing to spread this crap further with his kooky conspiracy theories:

https://www.nydailynews.com/coronavirus/ny-texas-man-says-his-party-led-to-coronavirus-outbreak-in-family-20200729-v4atbhxxujdmjmcfinplqpyzay-story.html

A "scamdemic" :lol:

[JDP]

You know we are all in trouble when even MAD FRIGGIN' MAX could not escape it:

https://people.com/movies/mel-gibson-hospitalized-for-coronavirus/

[Daoyinyang]

Lmao! Calls it a Hoax but then dies. Good Riddance. I can't deal with ignorant people who put others in danger. Anyways, this isn't as bad as the flu but it's still a mutation that needs a means to be dealt with (of course not permanently).
Vaccines have been nothing but good news. I'm hoping for more good news later this year.

[Neil]

An interesting watch, especially from the 21m mark...

8UvFhIFzaac

[EvilNed]

https://emanuelkarlsten.se/number-of-deaths-in-sweden-during-the-pandemic-compared-to-previous-years-mortality/

A recent blog post about the supposed higher mortality rate overall in Sweden. April and May reported an abnormally high number of deaths in the country, most likely linked to the Corona pandemic.
However the trend is normalizing and in August some weeks indicated a mortality rate below average.

[shootemindehead]

Ireland's cases have shot up over the last couple of weeks.

Pity. I was looking forward to getting back into the boozer for a few pints. :(

Don't think they'll be reopening the pubs any time soon.

[JDP]

"Like the man says, there's no problems, only solutions."

https://scontent.fhou1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/92400318_10158158661694288_5861813241511936000_n.j pg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_sid=110474&_nc_ohc=-u3gFx2HsEoAX_8cgPq&_nc_ht=scontent.fhou1-1.fna&oh=32905ef2929de589df54fcd14c096dc9&oe=5F870A90

[Neil]

Ireland's cases have shot up over the last couple of weeks.

Pity. I was looking forward to getting back into the boozer for a few pints. :(

Don't think they'll be reopening the pubs any time soon.

And yet the fatality rate is hovering around 0-1 most days, as it has for month(s)...

They are testing more, possibly with less accurate kits, so detecting more cases. But who cares, if the hospital beds are all but empty, and little different to the norm?

[Mike70]

One of my boys (Nicholas) lives in Canada with his mom and I haven't seen him in over a year. I'm ready to go on a "Wild Geese" style raid to see him. The border needs to open soon. That's all I'll say. On the flip side: My other boy (Paul) lives with me and hasn't seen his mom in over a year and it's fuckin' him up. He and his step-mom get along great but that ain't the same. This has been a trial for families like mine that live on both sides of the border. I know there are thousands of us but in the long, that's not much consolation.

[Neil]

One of my boys (Nicholas) lives in Canada with his mom and I haven't seen him in over a year. I'm ready to go on a "Wild Geese" style raid to see him. The border needs to open soon. That's all I'll say. On the flip side: My other boy (Paul) lives with me and hasn't seen his mom in over a year and it's fuckin' him up. He and his step-mom get along great but that ain't the same. This has been a trial for families like mine that live on both sides of the border. I know there are thousands of us but in the long, that's not much consolation.

That sounds difficult (on the kids) :(

[Mike70]

That sounds difficult (on the kids) :(

It blows. This border situation is ridiculous. I understand why it has to be this way BUT... Like I said, "Wild Geese" style raid...I"m totally ready for it.

[EvilNed]

Alright, so can we get an update on everyone? I hope everyone is OK.

Currently in Stockholm, Sweden. The Swedish situation is very complicated because technically we have restrictions but people just don't give a crap about them. And the only things that can be enforced by law like the sale of alcohol and stuff like that.

So currently, we're not allowed to be more than 8 people in "public places". But the definition of what a "public place" is not defined. I was in a café this morning that was just as busy as ever.

So the only thing that's really shut down are cinemas, theaters and churches... People are doing their best to cancel social events and the like but there's only so much a populace is going to do without being enforced by police or whatever - and there's none of that. The government is not ordering cafés or restaurants closed because the Swedish constitution does not allow the government to infringe on people's rights except in a state of war.

The numbers are pretty high right now as well. I know a lot of people who've had it (only one who got it bad, tho).

[shootemindehead]

Still Lockdown 2.0 here.

Won't be easing until the 18th when shops and restaurants will be allow to open for a while. "Wet" pubs won't be opening, unfortunately :( . Travel between counties will happen for a short period after the 18th for Christmas. I won't be going anywhere, but the Mrs might head home for a few days. I can see things going back to restricted after that and remaining that way into the new year.

Our numbers are staying around a few hundred, with a small number of deaths here and there.

To be honest, unless something drastic changes, I can't see much happening for the first quarter of the year.

[MinionZombie]

Well, Corona Virus and the various lockdowns and restrictions have been the fetid rotten cherry on top of what has been a horrible year for us, what with Dad's stroke. It's thrown everything up in the air for us and, because of the piss poor way that we've been treated by the system of the NHS (e.g. we were supposed to get 2 weeks notice of him being discharged from the stroke ward, we instead got 24 hours; we were supposed to get a full debrief with a doctor regarding his stroke and his general health, we instead got nothing at all, with Dad being led to believe he had a "clean bill of health", when in fact he'd also had a heart attack (which we've only just discovered evidence of after an echo-cardiogram, which was scheduled MONTHS later than it should have been and only after we hassled them into remembering we even existed!); we were told "it's just a bit of a problem with speaking that'll take a bit of time", which while true, negated the fact that he has, basically, suffered some brain damage because of the stroke; indeed, the whole discharge process was handled very poorly and, further to that, the ONLY time ANY doctor contacted us was 48 hours after the stroke to pester us about DNR ... it's an endless list of fuck ups and failures and lack of communication.

The bright shining beacon amongst the shit, though, have been the therapists (well, almost all of them). One in particular has been absolutely fantastic and helped us out in so many ways, such as translating a discharge sheet full of medical jagon into something we can actually understand. The boots on the ground, the folks who actually have to work in spite of the piss poor planning and communication and orders of those actually running the NHS, have been the ones who really get anything done and do things to help you. Our local GP surgery is lacking, to put it nicely. He's going to have a 72 hour heart monitor done next week - something which, surely, should have been conducted multiple times during his original month-long stay in the stroke ward? Why on earth is it being done SIX MONTHS later?

*sigh*

All of this has put a huge strain on our family, which is only small, it's just the four of us, one of whom lives on the other side of the country and is in a different Tier - so they won't be able to make it home for Christmas at all. I used to love Christmas, really look forward to it, get all into the wrapping of presents and the food and having the family together under one roof, but this year I'm absolutely dreading it. I just want it to be over and done with.

Considering how fucking awful our 2020 has been, fucking Corona Virus and all its knock-on effects (nationally, personally, day-to-day) has been an absolute nightmare.

If there was a God, they'd be a fucking scumbag.

[Neil]

Alright, so can we get an update on everyone? I hope everyone is OK.

Currently in Stockholm, Sweden. The Swedish situation is very complicated because technically we have restrictions but people just don't give a crap about them. And the only things that can be enforced by law like the sale of alcohol and stuff like that.

So currently, we're not allowed to be more than 8 people in "public places". But the definition of what a "public place" is not defined. I was in a café this morning that was just as busy as ever.

So the only thing that's really shut down are cinemas, theaters and churches... People are doing their best to cancel social events and the like but there's only so much a populace is going to do without being enforced by police or whatever - and there's none of that. The government is not ordering cafés or restaurants closed because the Swedish constitution does not allow the government to infringe on people's rights except in a state of war.

The numbers are pretty high right now as well. I know a lot of people who've had it (only one who got it bad, tho).

But Sweden at least hasn't taken a sledge hammer to its economy and public health, out of all proportion to the thread CV19 in truth poses ...

[kidgloves]

As someone who works in retail, this virus has absolutely devastated my industry. Many friends and colleagues have,and will, lose their jobs. I'm in the end game of working life with no kids so thankfully I won't be too affected by the economic fallout but i have huge sympathy for the generations below who are going to have to pay for this.

[Neil]

As someone who works in retail, this virus has absolutely devastated my industry. Many friends and colleagues have,and will, lose their jobs. I'm in the end game of working life with no kids so thankfully I won't be too affected by the economic fallout but i have huge sympathy for the generations below who are going to have to pay for this.

Agreed!

Oh, I suspect in years to come, when the 'accounting' is done, we'll work out the death and suffering caused by lockdown measures (eg: undiagnosed cancer & missed treatments) were greater than the lives potentially saved. And most of the lives 'saved' are of course folks older than life expectancy...

Then add on the decimation of the economies and all the suffering that causes (like unemployment). ie: Poverty kills.


Frankly, I'm livid at the lockdown measures employed in the UK. The last time an economic crisis like this occured in the UK, it was due to German bombs landing. But with annual death rates akin to average, and ICU usage akin to seasonal average, we have the Government taking a sledge hammer to the economy in effect because of a severe flu.

They keep saying they're following the science, but it's a select group of scientific opinions contrary to others, and more importantly they don't seem to be doing a cross benefit analysis of if the cure is worse than the disease. Which I'm certain it is. By a long way!

And let's not even get into the draconian enforcement of covid laws, with people being arrested simply of daring to peacefully protest against the Government's actions.


/rant

[kidgloves]

I'm really not surprised about the conspiracy theories doing the rounds.
The gap between the rich and the poor is getting even bigger except this time the middle classes are being downgraded along with us working class.
Tech companies are gagging and censoring a lot of opinions that go against the government's advice.
The government are using out of date data to justify these measures.
I'm classed as an essential worker and have been supporting our supermarket side of our business. All through this time I have been customer facing in various roles and I haven't come across one single person who even knows anyone whose been hospitalised.

This guy sums up my feelings entirely.


https://youtu.be/SFN2w_utEtg

[Mike70]

Boris Johnson is a little frat boy twit in American terms. i doubt that he has the maturity, seasoning, and adult mindset that is necessary for our time. Public school bastards with money in their pocket are the last people who need to be making decisions for Britain right now. He's in the same league as the that fuckin' punk orange fuckin' idiot in the White House....for just a few more days... but anyway, the Trump administration has lowered my opinion of Americans by....about 4 million points or so.

I'm on another topic but nationalism makes me wanna throw bricks at the faces of the idiots talking that shite. "America First" was the worst thing that ever came out of anyone's lips over here. You CANNOT be a world leader with that attitude. Sorry for this digression. I've never hated any politician in the way I hate Donald Trump.

My father is coming to live with us. He's nearly 80 and I'm completely out of patience with American fuckwits. There are still morons over here who think this is a "hoax" thanks to Trump's traitorous ass.

[shootemindehead]

The last few weeks of Trump has shown just how unfit for office he really was. Petulant time wasting with a 1-39 loss in courts over bogus, and frankly ridiculous, claims of voter fraud, with him perpetrating a dreadful and obvious grift upon the stupider part of the GOP's support base to relieve them of their cash. His entourage, too, are involved in an bizarre farce trying to run a nonsensical narrative that Biden lost the election, but is trying to pull the wool over people's eyes...somehow. An utterly baseless conspiracy that involve millions of people, the entire Democratic Party and state officials (some of which Trump himself put into power).

What absolute fuckin scumbags.

Trump and his cronies should be a lesson to all Americans.

[Neil]

Can we not have another thread decending into 'that territory' again please... ie: Let's basically keep it on topic with covid.

[Mike70]

Can we not have another thread decending into 'that territory' again please... ie: Let's basically keep it on topic with covid.

Certainly. I'm sick with this shite. I'm uncomfortable. Muscle weakness, stuffed up head, I had a sore throat (it went away today, hopefully I;m on the up swing), and I can't taste anything. The taste thing is the worst part of this. I've been down since Thanksgiving. Thankfully, I work mostly from home. I spend my days reading micrographs (images taken with an electron microscope) and interpreting imagery from things like ground penetrating radar and infrared satellite images. So, my professional life hasn't been too effected.

[Neil]

Certainly. I'm sick with this shite. I'm uncomfortable. Muscle weakness, stuffed up head, I had a sore throat (it went away today, hopefully I;m on the up swing), and I can't taste anything. The taste thing is the worst part of this. I've been down since Thanksgiving. Thankfully, I work mostly from home. I spend my days reading micrographs (images taken with an electron microscope) and interpreting imagery from things like ground penetrating radar and infrared satellite images. So, my professional life hasn't been too effected.

Have you had a bad flu before? If so how does it compare?

Many months ago myself and partner both had a headache for about 3 days. I also had a sore throat. One afternoon, very unlike us, we both were so tired we had to go to bed to sleep it off. Was that a mild CV19? Or simply another bug? Who knows...

[Mike70]

Have you had a bad flu before? If so how does it compare?

Many months ago myself and partner both had a headache for about 3 days. I also had a sore throat. One afternoon, very unlike us, we both were so tired we had to go to bed to sleep it off. Was that a mild CV19? Or simply another bug? Who knows...

What I've had is like a mild flu or a decent case of strep throat. Then again, I'm not struggling to breathe. it's all relative. I may have to go get a potassium infusion tomorrow at the hospital because I've not had much appetite and I think my K level is getting low. If I do, I'll count myself lucky. Getting K can be nice and warm if it's done right.

[Neil]

Another example of how the cure might be worse than the disease. Nearly 25% of US dollars were printed this year...

[Mike70]

Another example of how the cure might be worse than the disease. Nearly 25% of US dollars were printed this year...

The US gets a big fat F on this. If Covid was killing 10% of the people that contracted it, the US would be done as a country and would be on its knees begging for help from anyone who would listen. Never seen people act like children over not being able to go to a bar, because youth sports might be cancelled, because the tanning salon isn't open, etc. Fragile and paranoid is what I think of most Americans. I already had a DIM opinion of most of my fellow countrymen, this seals it. Most Americans don't give a shit about anything but themselves and the few people in orbit around them. There. I stayed away from politics and went after the country as a whole. To me it isn't about Right or Left or any of that shit. It's about what information are you gonna give credit to and what kind of lunatic nonsense are you gonna buy into. Dipshits and asshats come in all political flavors.

Neil, I will literally pay you to fry the first person who acts the fool over this. This pandemic is one of the biggest, maybe biggest thing, that's happened in our lives. It has separated families, shut down economies, and pretty much been a planet wide bummer. We should talk about it...without paranoia or nonsense.

[Tricky]

My manager just lost his father in law to covid, felt unwell with it last week but seemed to be doing ok on antibiotics, then at the weekend it suddenly turned into bacterial pneumonia and he rapidly went downhill. It's very real and people need to stop acting like it's no big deal. This would have been under far better control months ago in the UK if people had actually heeded the governments advice and stayed at home instead of looking for every which way to bend and break the rules to keep seeing each other and carry on as if there's nothing happening.

[JDP]

The US gets a big fat F on this. If Covid was killing 10% of the people that contracted it, the US would be done as a country and would be on its knees begging for help from anyone who would listen. Never seen people act like children over not being able to go to a bar, because youth sports might be cancelled, because the tanning salon isn't open, etc. Fragile and paranoid is what I think of most Americans. I already had a DIM opinion of most of my fellow countrymen, this seals it. Most Americans don't give a shit about anything but themselves and the few people in orbit around them. There. I stayed away from politics and went after the country as a whole. To me it isn't about Right or Left or any of that shit. It's about what information are you gonna give credit to and what kind of lunatic nonsense are you gonna buy into. Dipshits and asshats come in all political flavors.

Neil, I will literally pay you to fry the first person who acts the fool over this. This pandemic is one of the biggest, maybe biggest thing, that's happened in our lives. It has separated families, shut down economies, and pretty much been a planet wide bummer. We should talk about it...without paranoia or nonsense.

I've even had to sever friendships over this shit, some of them people that I have known even since way back in high school! Sorry, but I just won't risk my health and even possibly my life for anyone's paranoia. And it doesn't matter how many times I have explained to them that this is not any "hoax", they still insist on wanting to go on with their lives as if nothing has happened. "Come hang out with us, don't be scared of the Covid-19 Bogeyman!" Uh, no thanks! I'll send you "Get Well Soon!" postcards when you find yourselves in obligatory quarantine because you contracted this crap due to your silly unfounded conspiracy theories and irresponsible behavior.

[MinionZombie]

Yep. There's a story in the news just now about a UK family who've now lost FOUR members after they insisted on having a family Xmas.

We've been isolating since early March, and personal family circumstances that have recently developed have kept us hunkered down - particularly during the summer when so many people were just swanning about doing whatever they liked - so we've been essentially "locked down" for damn near a year now. Therefore, it absolutely infuriates me to see utter twats waltzing about in town without a mask on, or - like today - a couple of ladies shuffling up the street, one masked properly, the other blabbering away with only her chin covered.

The mini lockdown at the tail end of last year ... barely saw a difference in traffic around town (we get online shopping, thankfully, so we don't have to venture in - I just drive through while giving the cars a spin to keep the batteries going, as I've been doing since April).

The only time I've been outside of the house is to either drive the cars (in which case I get in at home, drive a non-stop loop, and then get out once back at home), or visits to the hospital and GP surgery (because of the aforementioned change in family circumstances, which have taken a torrid year and turned into a living nightmare that will never be rectified).

So yeah, idiot members of the public, "influencers" sodding off to Dubai, and useless governments/politicians (Bojo is absolutely not cut out to be a Prime Minister) making the wrong decisions or making the right ones weeks after they should have been taken, has led to this nonsense continuing and it all fucks me right off.

At least during this latest lockdown I've seen, relatively speaking, more mask wearing and fewer cars on the road - so there's more heed being paid to it compared to the last one ... but there's still utter buffoons out there fucking things up, and, frankly, the vaccine should surely be targetted at people who are most likely to spread it (as well as the most vulnerable).

I can't tell you how mad it made me to pass the county colleges (on the way back and forth to the hospital) to see the college kids swanning about with NO FUCKING MASKS ON in great big groups. Just yards away from the hospital itself (which had active Covid cases) I saw a group of teen boys literally sitting on top of one another outside KFC.

Teens. Always banging on about wanting to be treated like adults, harping on about "votes for 16 year olds", and all that shit, and they're faced with the biggest global event in living memory (aside from WWII) - a respiratory pandemic that can be combatted by WEARING A SIMPLE FUCKING MASK - and they can't be fucking bothered. Nope, can't social distance, can't cover their spotty faces and bum fluff, can't follow a simple instruction ... ... fucking maddening. Same goes for those 20-somethings (or indeed anything-somethings) who are all like, "Nah, I won't get it, or I'll not be affected by it if I do get it" just running around licking door handles or whatever idiotic shit they do.

"Ooh, mah freedoms!" - what freedoms? To show the bottom half of your ugly face in public? Wowee. Eat shit.

I wanted to go full-blown Nicholson so bad seeing that shit. I mean, it was literally a needle-in-a-hay-stack situation trying to see one of those college kids wearing a mask.

https://i.gifer.com/1o8Z.gif

[Neil]

Yep. There's a story in the news just now about a UK family who've now lost FOUR members after they insisted on having a family Xmas.
The problem with these obviously horrible stories, is that:-
1) The average age of a CV19 fatality is basically older than life expectancy.
2) Something like over 90% of victims have a co-morbidity.
3) Over 80% have two...
4) If you look at the weekly death rates, even now in January, they're not that much out of the norm.

Meanwhile, we are now ten months into 'house arrest' with the economy being utterly decimated, and most likely so much harm being done to public health it outweighs the good we're supposedly doing it for.

[ProfessorChaos]

I found out from our regional supervisor yesterday that I am eligible to receive the vaccine, given the nature of my job and how they can justify classifying me as an essential first responder. Problem is, they don't have enough of the vaccine in my county, sounds like it won't be around till May.

Kind of hesitant because of the fact that there are no long-term studies on this yet. However, someone I work with has had the virus and has had one hell of a time bouncing back, about like Mike it sounds like. And my brother's wife lost her grandmother to it at the beginning of the year. However, I also know a handful of people who have had it, and had no real problems with it other than a runny nose and mild chest congestion. So while I don't I think the whole thing is a grand hoax, I'm not sure if it's as bad as they're letting on. Apparently it is for some people. Not sure about the vaccine yet though, I guess I'll see when it becomes available how I'm feeling about it.

[JDP]

I found out from our regional supervisor yesterday that I am eligible to receive the vaccine, given the nature of my job and how they can justify classifying me as an essential first responder. Problem is, they don't have enough of the vaccine in my county, sounds like it won't be around till May.

Kind of hesitant because of the fact that there are no long-term studies on this yet. However, someone I work with has had the virus and has had one hell of a time bouncing back, about like Mike it sounds like. And my brother's wife lost her grandmother to it at the beginning of the year. However, I also know a handful of people who have had it, and had no real problems with it other than a runny nose and mild chest congestion. So while I don't I think the whole thing is a grand hoax, I'm not sure if it's as bad as they're letting on. Apparently it is for some people. Not sure about the vaccine yet though, I guess I'll see when it becomes available how I'm feeling about it.

It's like playing Russian roulette. You may get the bullet or you may not. You don't know how this thing will affect you until you get it. So, the best thing is to not "play the game" in the first place and not get infected with this shit.

As for the vaccine: it is too recent, I would not risk taking it yet. I know a doctor who works at a clinic, he qualifies for taking it since he is in daily contact with infected people, and he sure as heck is not taking it yet. He wants to wait and see if there's any serious side effects first.

[EvilNed]

The problem with these obviously horrible stories, is that:-
1) The average age of a CV19 fatality is basically older than life expectancy.
2) Something like over 90% of victims have a co-morbidity.
3) Over 80% have two...
4) If you look at the weekly death rates, even now in January, they're not that much out of the norm.

Meanwhile, we are now ten months into 'house arrest' with the economy being utterly decimated, and most likely so much harm being done to public health it outweighs the good we're supposedly doing it for.

To play the devil's advovate:
Mortality is only part of it. The virus is very infectious and can bring otherwise healthy people to their knees. Recovery can be slow and while the mortality rate might not be all out of the norm there is obviously an effect on society to carry on as normal since there are so many sick people.
The Virus spreads mostly through superspreaders and clusters, which makes it very unpredicteable. If it strikes, it can strike bad.

[Neil]

To play the devil's advovate:
Mortality is only part of it. The virus is very infectious and can bring otherwise healthy people to their knees. Recovery can be slow and while the mortality rate might not be all out of the norm there is obviously an effect on society to carry on as normal since there are so many sick people.
The Virus spreads mostly through superspreaders and clusters, which makes it very unpredicteable. If it strikes, it can strike bad.

Agreed... But I still think there's been an out of proportion reaction to test figures and death rates vs the damaged being done to economies and public health by very questionable lockdown measures. And let's not even go into civil liberties being trampled over by decree.



I know a doctor who works at a clinic, he qualifies for taking it since he is in daily contact with infected people, and he sure as heck is not taking it yet. He wants to wait and see if there's any serious side effects first.I suspect the vaccine is absolutely fine... BUT, I understand the concern given the rush to get them through... I'm not keen on taking it.

[MinionZombie]

As soon as I'm eligible for a vaccine I'm fucking taking it. Mind you, with the way the roll out is happening - both in terms of categories and the actual pace of administering vaccines - it'll be ages until I'm up for it.

Teams all over the world have been working on it, in conjunction, and have been building on knowledge they already knew about other strains of Covid. It may be somewhat unprecedented, the speed at which they've managed this, but these are also highly exceptional times. We've not had a pandemic like this in living memory, and the last time mankind had one this bad you not only didn't have the scientific abilities, but also didn't have the mass spread capabilities of twatty influencers and selfish pricks insisting on having their international holibobs DURING A FUCKING PANDEMIC. Considering the widespread impact of global lockdowns - and not just in financial terms, because there have been so many knock-on effects - it's in the global interest to tackle it, hence the concerted and coordinated efforts.

Paranoid about having the vaccine? Based on what exactly?

Meanwhile...

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/covid-denier-gary-matthews-dies-134207238.html

[Neil]

Paranoid about having the vaccine? Based on what exactly?For me, the fact it has been rushed through, and the fact that I almost certainly don't need it. ie: To repeat:-
1) The average age of a CV19 fatality is basically older than life expectancy.
2) Something like over 90% of victims have a co-morbidity.
3) Over 80% have two...

^ I don't see myself as an at risk individual, and the vaccine is not a pancea to prevent infection or symptoms. ie: It only reduces them...

If it comes to some rediculous arm twisting where I need it for a vaccine passport for a holiday I guess I'll have one.

And I really really don't want my kids to have it. They literally have no reason to have it...



Meanwhile...

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/covid-denier-gary-matthews-dies-134207238.html
I really don't understand the covid denial mindset. Very odd. But then we have people who believe the earth is flat and 'space is fake'.

What I find interesting in your article, is it seems to fail to mention that he seemingly had asthma. ie: Respitatory diseases are not good when combined with asthma. So we have the press happy to push the narrative of he died from CV19 alone? For that added bit of alarmism?

[EvilNed]

Neil, I think you've misunderstood. You do not take the vaccine to prevent yourself from getting sick and saving your own life. You take it from preventing yourself from getting sick and saving other people's lives.

[Mike70]

^ I don't see myself as an at risk individual, and the vaccine is not a pancea to prevent infection or symptoms. ie: It only reduces them...



Bwhahahahaha! That will not keep you safe. I'm not an at-risk individual either. I can barely walk 25m now because of Covid and it looks to be permanent. Take the vaccine. You DO NOT WANT to play Covid roulette. Yes, most people recover. But a significant number of those folks have new health issues - heart problems, asthma, muscle issues. I wish there'd have been a vaccine in November. I'd still be able to hike. I'll probably never do that again and it hurts because I loved hiking. It was a big part of my recreation. I'll probably never play basketball again. THAT SUCKS BIG TIME. Take the vaccine. You don't want endocarditis. You don't want asthma. You do want to be able to walk. Don't act like an American anti-vaxxer.

[MinionZombie]

For me, the fact it has been rushed through, and the fact that I almost certainly don't need it. ie: To repeat:-
1) The average age of a CV19 fatality is basically older than life expectancy.
2) Something like over 90% of victims have a co-morbidity.
3) Over 80% have two...

^ I don't see myself as an at risk individual, and the vaccine is not a pancea to prevent infection or symptoms. ie: It only reduces them...

If it comes to some rediculous arm twisting where I need it for a vaccine passport for a holiday I guess I'll have one.

And I really really don't want my kids to have it. They literally have no reason to have it...



I really don't understand the covid denial mindset. Very odd. But then we have people who believe the earth is flat and 'space is fake'.

What I find interesting in your article, is it seems to fail to mention that he seemingly had asthma. ie: Respitatory diseases are not good when combined with asthma. So we have the press happy to push the narrative of he died from CV19 alone? For that added bit of alarmism?

1) There's still clearly a risk to people who aren't vulnerable. Mike's Russian roulette metaphor is appropriate. Or it's like spin the bottle. You may or may not get it. If you do get it, you may or may not get it bad. If you get it bad you may or may not die. If you don't die but have it bad, you'll likely have knock-on effects for a very long time.

Do you seriously want to run any percentage of risk by not taking the vaccine, or having your kids vaccinated (although I'd imagine children who aren't in specific vulnerable categories won't be vaccinated for a long time, if ever, and should therefore benefit from folks above their age range having received the vaccine)?

There's been plenty of stories in the past year of deniers, or just folks who haven't been fussed, getting Covid and either dying or getting it very badly - or passing it onto their loved ones, who then die - and I bet they all wish they'd been a bit more careful and taken it seriously.

As for the speed of making the vaccine ... speed doesn't exclusively correlate with "dangerous". Do you have a background in manufacturing vaccines? No. Neither do I. I'll leave it in the capable hands of countless people the world over who have worked together and pooled their vastly superior knowledge on the subject of viruses and vaccines, and put my trust in them.

Being paranoid about it is about as silly as the time when Tony Blair went all iffy about routine childhood vaccinations - the widely debunked panics about them causing autism - regardless of the timescale for developing them.

Sometimes you have a ticking clock and that sets the agenda.

2) It's not my article, it's some article on Yahoo.

Him having asthma then made him more vulnerable to Covid. Had he taken it seriously he wouldn't have got the virus and he wouldn't be dead right now, and his family wouldn't be grieving, left with his mess to clean up and the gaping void of where he used to be to fill up somehow, if possible.

[JDP]

.

Paranoid about having the vaccine? Based on what exactly?

Not really "paranoia", it's just the same thing with all new vaccines, they are still basically on a "test period" until a very large number of people have taken them and been observed for side effects. The CDC keeps track of such things, so it is good to periodically check their updates. Example:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/Moderna.html

Notice this pertinent part:

Most side effects were mild to moderate. However, a small number of people had severe side effects that affected their ability to do daily activities.

Keep an eye on such warnings. Hopefully, it remains restricted to "a small number of people" permanently and you do not fall in that category. If push comes to shove, take the risk and get vaccinated, but if it is not something urgent, if you are certain that you are not at high risk of getting infected, then wait and see if the vaccine's safety status does not change. The more people get vaccinated and very few to no one develops any serious side effects, the better for you. It means your chances of being in the "at risk" group for the bad side of the vaccine are minimal.

[Neil]

1) There's still clearly a risk to people who aren't vulnerable. Mike's Russian roulette metaphor is appropriate. Or it's like spin the bottle. You may or may not get it. If you do get it, you may or may not get it bad. If you get it bad you may or may not die. If you don't die but have it bad, you'll likely have knock-on effects for a very long time.

Do you seriously want to run any percentage of risk by not taking the vaccine, or having your kids vaccinated (although I'd imagine children who aren't in specific vulnerable categories won't be vaccinated for a long time, if ever, and should therefore benefit from folks above their age range having received the vaccine)?Yes and no... Again the vaccine is not a guarantee, only an improvement to odds. And keep in mind things like statistically children are at more risk of death from seasonal flu than CV19. I suspect when all this is done and dusted well see a fatality rate akin to contracting normal seasonal flu, but the current hype is giving people the impression it's something far worse.



Him having asthma then made him more vulnerable to Covid. Had he taken it seriously he wouldn't have got the virus and he wouldn't be dead right now, and his family wouldn't be grieving, left with his mess to clean up and the gaping void of where he used to be to fill up somehow, if possible.Yep, being at such clear risk, he was a total plum, and should appear on a Darwin Awards list somewhere...


I watched this the other day and mirrors my concerns, are the way stats are being given to us results in a considered view, or one risking leading to hysteria - ie: covid death rates being given with no real context and based on a death within 28 days of a +ve CV19 test - and also questions are the deaths incurred by our ten+ months of lockdown measures risking out weighing the lives they are supposed to save? - https://vimeo.com/505133187

[EvilNed]

Again. Don't take the vaccine to save yourself. Take it to save others.

[Mike70]

Again. Don't take the vaccine to save yourself. Take it to save others.

or take it to save your heart, or lungs, or muscles. Thousands upon thousands of people are recovering with significantly altered lives. I'm one example. There are a whole lot of other people with Post-Covid Syndrome worse than me. The other thing is you really don't want a serious case of Covid. It's about as miserable an experience as you will ever have. You have been warned Ebenezer Neil! Stop sounding like an American right-winger. Most of those people haven't read a book since they were forced to in 12th grade and science is like kryptonite to that set.

[Neil]

Again. Don't take the vaccine to save yourself. Take it to save others.


or take it to save your heart, or lungs, or muscles. Thousands upon thousands of people are recovering with significantly altered lives. I'm one example. There are a whole lot of other people with Post-Covid Syndrome worse than me. The other thing is you really don't want a serious case of Covid. It's about as miserable an experience as you will ever have. You have been warned Ebenezer Neil!

I hear you, and you have a fair point. But again, for me the CV19 response is becoming less and less based on reason and facts, and more and more turning into an out of control (proportion) religion... The mask debacle sums things up nicely, where they're not necessary, then are, even when science raises serious questions of there use. And now Fauci starts talking about wearing two of them?

[shootemindehead]

They're dealing with something in actuality that hasn't been dealt with in modern times (yes, I'm aware of other cases, but they're not like this). A worldwide pandemic isn't something that can be solved with projection modelling. So a certain amount of confusion is to be expected when one actually hits. Frankly, I'd be more surprised if, as a planet, we tackled it without the missteps. The reality is no one was prepared for this and our efforts to combat it reflect that. Much of COVID has been a steep learning experience.

Plus, there has been a shit ton of deliberate disinformation put out there by, well frankly, fuckheads who are about as much use as a chocolate teapot.

On the mask issue. The general consensus is that masks work...to a degree. But that doesn't mean that they offer complete protection. They may help stop ingestion of the virus through the nasal or throat passages, or transmission from the wearer. But one could still get/deliver the virus through hand to mouth transmission, or in other ways.

At the moment, a mask can offer a limited element of protection. But that is still a better scenario than no mask at all.

[EvilNed]

I hear you, and you have a fair point. But again, for me the CV19 response is becoming less and less based on reason and facts, and more and more turning into an out of control (proportion) religion... The mask debacle sums things up nicely, where they're not necessary, then are, even when science raises serious questions of there use. And now Fauci starts talking about wearing two of them?

I don't know where you're getting that from - (the lack of reason and facts) - but I'm pretty sure that varies from country to country so we may have different parameters for reference there.

Anyway - take the vaccine. Only then will the virus go away. And until then, these measures will be in place. And until then, people will at the very least be hospitalized and many will die. It's not about you or your family, it's about everyone.

[MinionZombie]

RE: Masks...

The reason they 'weren't a good idea' when the pandemic started was simple: governments, such as ours, simply didn't have enough of them. They were needed most of all by NHS workers, for example, so to stop people buying them all up they put that idiotic lie out there.

What they should have done, as I said at the time, was TELL THE FUCKING TRUTH. Simply: "We don't have enough of these masks. These other people NEED them. YOU, on the other hand, can sit on your arse and watch Netflix." - Plus, in conjunction with that, governments should have put measures in place to direct the procurement and sale of masks to those who needed them first and foremost ... then, they should have found people able to immediately started manufacturing masks within a nation's borders for use when the time came for lockdown to be lifted.

As a result of the stupid lie, which was only to try and save a bit of face, they cast a shadow of doubt over masks and provided fuel for 'truther' idiots whose conspiracy theories are always based on misinformation, misheard crap, assumptions and "I would have thought..." comments, rather than actual facts.

Masks help limit transmission - therefore: GOOD THING. However, they must also be worn in conjunction with WASHING YOUR FUCKING HANDS. So many grotty people about. That's why the flu spreads so easily when it rolls around. Wankers and selfish/oblivious pricks walking around full of cold and flu snotting everywhere, open-mouthed coughing over everything, rubbing their snotty hands all over public surfaces. If more people took the cleanliness of their hands more seriously, and used sick days for actual sickness, and didn't swan off to the shops WHEN THEY'RE FULL OF COLD etc, then the spread of the seasonal flu would be vastly reduced. Considering how poorly people act regarding the seasonal flu, it's no wonder the pandemic spread as easily as it did.

Also, yes, as Ned has been mentioning, it's about protecting other people as much as yourself. Other people wearing masks, washing their hands, getting vaccinated, that helps everyone. You included. In-turn, you play your part.

...

The 'religious' aspect is completely beside the point, to be honest, and is more about individuals ... some of it driven by the wilful stupidity of some members of the public. I'm not keen on that either, but it's the equal and opposite reaction to the aforementioned dopes who'd sooner believe made-up rubbish about nanobots and 5G from some wonky group buried away in the depths of Facebook than listen to an educated professional who actually knows what they're talking about.

When you've spend almost a year following the rules diligently and you see twats still walking around amongst other people without masks, without washing their hands, or swanning off to fucking Dubai to "provide content" for their Instagram, it's pretty fucking maddening.

...

In other news, I've just got back from taking my Dad to get his first vaccination. It was all run nice and orderly, with all the medical personel and volunteer wardens making everything nice and clear and running smoothly. Fortunately, we turned up for his slot time at a calm period. I presume there were more people earlier in the day.

[Neil]

RE: Masks...

The reason they 'weren't a good idea' when the pandemic started was simple: governments, such as ours, simply didn't have enough of them. They were needed most of all by NHS workers, for example, so to stop people buying them all up they put that idiotic lie out there.

What they should have done, as I said at the time, was TELL THE FUCKING TRUTH. Simply: "We don't have enough of these masks. These other people NEED them. YOU, on the other hand, can sit on your arse and watch Netflix." - Plus, in conjunction with that, governments should have put measures in place to direct the procurement and sale of masks to those who needed them first and foremost ... then, they should have found people able to immediately started manufacturing masks within a nation's borders for use when the time came for lockdown to be lifted.

As a result of the stupid lie, which was only to try and save a bit of face, they cast a shadow of doubt over masks and provided fuel for 'truther' idiots whose conspiracy theories are always based on misinformation, misheard crap, assumptions and "I would have thought..." comments, rather than actual facts.

Masks help limit transmission - therefore: GOOD THING. However, they must also be worn in conjunction with WASHING YOUR FUCKING HANDS. So many grotty people about. That's why the flu spreads so easily when it rolls around. Wankers and selfish/oblivious pricks walking around full of cold and flu snotting everywhere, open-mouthed coughing over everything, rubbing their snotty hands all over public surfaces. If more people took the cleanliness of their hands more seriously, and used sick days for actual sickness, and didn't swan off to the shops WHEN THEY'RE FULL OF COLD etc, then the spread of the seasonal flu would be vastly reduced. Considering how poorly people act regarding the seasonal flu, it's no wonder the pandemic spread as easily as it did.

Also, yes, as Ned has been mentioning, it's about protecting other people as much as yourself. Other people wearing masks, washing their hands, getting vaccinated, that helps everyone. You included. In-turn, you play your part.

...

The 'religious' aspect is completely beside the point, to be honest, and is more about individuals ... some of it driven by the wilful stupidity of some members of the public. I'm not keen on that either, but it's the equal and opposite reaction to the aforementioned dopes who'd sooner believe made-up rubbish about nanobots and 5G from some wonky group buried away in the depths of Facebook than listen to an educated professional who actually knows what they're talking about.

When you've spend almost a year following the rules diligently and you see twats still walking around amongst other people without masks, without washing their hands, or swanning off to fucking Dubai to "provide content" for their Instagram, it's pretty fucking maddening.

Yes and no IMHO...

Masks can help stop some spread, but:-
1) The kind of masks most people are using don't achieve much.
2) They risk people reducing social distancing assuming a mask is particularly effective.
3) They collect germs, and with some people constantly touching them, it ends up as a fresh germ gutter on their face allowing to spread effectively.


In other news, I've just got back from taking my Dad to get his first vaccination. It was all run nice and orderly, with all the medical personel and volunteer wardens making everything nice and clear and running smoothly. Fortunately, we turned up for his slot time at a calm period. I presume there were more people earlier in the day.Yeh, my mum was done last weekend....

[EvilNed]

Yes and no IMHO...

Masks can help stop some spread, but:-
1) The kind of masks most people are using don't achieve much.
2) They risk people reducing social distancing assuming a mask is particularly effective.
3) They collect germs, and with some people constantly touching them, it ends up as a fresh germ gutter on their face allowing to spread effectively.


I've seen this claim thrown around and I don't buy it. To me, the exact opposite is true. Mask off - people forget there's a pandemic on. Mask on - people take caution.
Furthermore, I don't know what masks "most people" are using, but an ordinary cloth mask stops 85% of your particles. If surgical masks 95%. If both people wear there's a 99% reduction in likelyhood of transmission.

Wear your mask, people. It's not a catch-all solution, but it's a catch-alot solution.

[MinionZombie]

Wear your mask, people. It's not a catch-all solution, but it's a catch-alot solution.

Indeed.

While it may be a bit of a nuisance, that's all it is. It's only temporary, too, and frankly I think they should be more common in the future during flu season to help limit the spread of viruses.

Combined with social distancing and proper hand hygiene awareness, it all adds up to help frustrate the spread of the virus. It's simple common sense and is thoughtful towards other people. You might get it, but only have mild symptoms, but then you might also pass it onto someone else who isn't so lucky - someone who might even die - and all because some person couldn't be arsed to wear a mask, wash their hands, and stand back a bit.

Just on the issue of hand hygiene: For me, I really try to think about what I'm touching and how I'm touching it when out in public. Sometimes, if possible, I'll even do a 'public hand and personal hand' situation, whereby one hand handles something public (e.g. a fuel pump or a door handle) while the other hand will handle something personal (e.g. the car key, or a cash card). Having completed my task, one I've had to do (i.e. not some jolly into town), I give my hands a good gelling after putting any gloves or masks or receipts into a plastic bag for sorting out later (after which I'll also thoroughly wash my hands, of course).

[ProfessorChaos]

well my younger brother has tested positive. he's about to turn 38 this later this month. said he felt pretty crappy one day, kinda tired since then, but seems to be doing okay overall so far.