Terminator 1 vs Terminator 2 discussion

[JDP]

The Terninator and Terminator 2: Judgement Day

While browsing the Vudu account for something to watch this morning, and after the recent news of Cameron’s return to the franchise, I decided to watch these two films back-to-back.

There’s really nothing new that can be said about these films at this point. Most of us have seen them numerous times and recognize them as some of the all-time best science fiction films. However, one thing that I’ve continued to notice as time goes on is that the original film is not aging well at all. That’s not meant to be detrimental to the film, it’s fantastic, but just from a time period aesthetic, T2 seems to be aging better and having more of a “timeless” quality whereas T1 is very much a film of the eighties. Of course they both show signs of the times they were produced, it just seems to me that T2 has the edge when it comes to that “timelessness” even though it’s now 25-30 years old.

The first Terminator movie was a better film than the second one in practically all aspects. As for "aging": the events of the movie are supposed to take place in 1984, the same year it was released, so it cannot really "age" from this point of view. In fact, the more it looks totally "80s", the better! If you tried to "remake" Terminator today, no matter how "80s" you tried to make it look like, it would never beat the original, made in the same time-period the movie is supposed to be taking place in. Just revel in its totally awesome "eightiesness".

[Neil]

The first Terminator movie was a better film than the second one in practically all aspects. As for "aging": the events of the movie are supposed to take place in 1984, the same year it was released, so it cannot really "age" from this point of view. In fact, the more it looks totally "80s", the better! If you tried to "remake" Terminator today, no matter how "80s" you tried to make it look like, it would never beat the original, made in the same time-period the movie is supposed to be taking place in. Just revel in its totally awesome "eightiesness".
Can't agree with that.

For me, overall, no.2 was better...

[JDP]

Can't agree with that.

For me, overall, no.2 was better...

The first one was way more believable than the second one. I could more easily believe the first one as being capable of taking place one day in the distant future than the second one. The main culprit for this will always be that "mercury" robot: it totally ruined T2's "street cred".

[bassman]

Can't agree with that.

For me, overall, no.2 was better...

I love them both, but I agree with you that T2 is the better film on multiple levels. Cameron had more experience and had really honed his craft at that point, whereas the original film shows as his first big solo effort.

[beat_truck]

T2 had more action and fancy special effects/CGI, but I thought the first was a better and more believable movie. Not to mention, the damn kid in the second one just got on my nerves.

And personally, I don't give a shit if a movie supposedly "ages". It doesn't make it any less good. It fact, I prefer older, gritter, movies to 99% of the more modern, ultra polished, CGI filled crap fests. But that's just me, though.

[JDP]

I love them both, but I agree with you that T2 is the better film on multiple levels. Cameron had more experience and had really honed his craft at that point, whereas the original film shows as his first big solo effort.

It is impossible for me to agree with any of this. In the second movie Cameron was obviously trying to "top" that well-balanced masterpiece of science fiction that was the first Terminator movie. This is a common mistake that many authors/filmmakers make. They think that they will somehow be able to surpass their own masterful creation. Most make the same mistake: they underestimate how well-done their previous work was, and the result of their attempts at "topping" themselves more often than not end up being a disappointment. In the process of attempting to achieve such futility as "topping" the original Terminator film, he introduced this fanciful but very unrealistic antagonist... yes, that hardly-believable-at-all "mercury" robot, which resulted in making the movie more like a fantasy film than a sci-fi one. That shape-shifting "robot" is more at home in fantasy stories where inexplicable "magical/supernatural" elements are intertwined with the story, like Krull or Dracula, for example (both stories have shapeshifters), than in a Terminator movie. There's just no way that I can possibly believe such a thing as somehow being "possible", which pretty much goes against the grain of science fiction story-telling, which, though still fantasy, it tries to stay within the boundaries of "believability". That's quite in contrast with the robot of the first movie, which is 100% believable. Even in our own current days, only 34 years after the first movie, we are already seeing things come to reality that are starting to come closer and closer to that machine (kind of scary when you think about it!) I can believe that one day in the distant future robotics and A.I. will be so advanced that a machine like the one in the first movie will in fact be a fact! I don't see anything like the "mercury" robot of the second movie anywhere in the horizon, though.

[bassman]

Oddly enough, the T-1000 liquid metal terminator was Cameron’s first idea for the Terminator, he was just limited by the technology of the time. It was after he saw the water creature created for the Abyss that he realized he could finally recreate his “dream”, which he claims was the liquid metal figure emerging from flames. It would’ve been a disaster if he’d attenpted that character in 84.

To each his own, but I don’t necessarily watch the Terminator films for their believability. After all, they’re time travel films...

I decided to brave it out and continue on with the non-Cameron films this morning. Whew....straight off the bat, T3 is cracking the dumb jokes. Cameron had some simple jokes, but this is just cringeworthy. There ARE some decent ideas in the film, such as a Terminator that can control other technology, but for the most part it’s just an exercise in trying to replicate a past success. I was just reading that Cameron told Schwarzenegger to “take the money and run”, and apparently he did, making over thirty million for his participation in T3?? Wow, at least someone got something good out of it...

[MinionZombie]

haha, yeah, T3 is a turd, isn't it? So cringey so often, the director and the writers clearly didn't understand the source material at all - most obviously of all with the Terminators' sudden jump in strength and resilience (something which carried over into the fourth and fifth movies - remember the molten steel that utterly destroyed any trace of the T-1000 and T-800 in T2? But a mere and temporary hindrance in the fourth movie :rolleyes: ).

Likewise, I'd pick T2 over T1, but that doesn't mean I don't love T1, because I do, but T2 is all-round a better film IMHO. It's so well crafted - even the sound effects play out with the precision of a symphony, interlinking with the score and editing beautifully.

[JDP]

Oddly enough, the T-1000 liquid metal terminator was Cameron’s first idea for the Terminator, he was just limited by the technology of the time. It was after he saw the water creature created for the Abyss that he realized he could finally recreate his “dream”, which he claims was the liquid metal figure emerging from flames. It would’ve been a disaster if he’d attenpted that character in 84.

To each his own, but I don’t necessarily watch the Terminator films for their believability. After all, they’re time travel films...


The first Terminator movie = a film geared for an adult audience. The second Terminator movie = a film geared for a younger audience. There's just no comparison. The second film is simply an entertaining action romp. The first one is a well-thought, well-crafted and well-balanced landmark sci-fi film.

[Neil]

Knives Out (2019) - Enjoyable murder mystery romp... 7.5/10



The first Terminator movie = a film geared for an adult audience. The second Terminator movie = a film geared for a younger audience. There's just no comparison. The second film is simply an entertaining action romp. The first one is a well-thought, well-crafted and well-balanced landmark sci-fi film.

Don't see it as black and white as that. eg: The attack on Dyson's house is hardly what I'd describe as "geared for a younger audience". IMHO, while T2 isn't as adult orientated as T1, I don't think it's a lesser film because of it. I'd suggest in its favour, it's a bigger and stronger story.

[MinionZombie]

Don't see it as black and white as that. eg: The attack on Dyson's house is hardly what I'd describe as "geared for a younger audience". IMHO, while T2 isn't as adult orientated as T1, I don't think it's a lesser film because of it. I'd suggest in its favour, it's a bigger and stronger story.

Yeah, I don't really see T1 and T2 as being pitched at different audiences at all, and never have ... plus the fact that if T2 really was being pitched to a younger audience it wouldn't have been R-Rated and featured copious f-bombs.

It's just a different size of movie. T1 was JC's big push into the world of directing (not his debut, that was Piranha 2: The Spawning) and was done on a tight budget. T2 comes along after he's gone to great lengths to make not only Aliens, but The Abyss as well. He was never going to make some small, gritty sequel. He's always been about pushing the boundaries, even within the realm of his own ever-expanding budgets.

[JDP]

Don't see it as black and white as that. eg: The attack on Dyson's house is hardly what I'd describe as "geared for a younger audience". IMHO, while T2 isn't as adult orientated as T1, I don't think it's a lesser film because of it. I'd suggest in its favour, it's a bigger and stronger story.

Movies primarily directed at younger audiences can have plenty of violence in them, so that is not a good way of judging who a given movie is primarily directed to. See, for example, the Scream franchise. Their prime target audience are certainly not people in their 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, etc. but teenagers and "twenty-somethings". And they are plenty violent all right. That doesn't mean that older audiences won't see them or enjoy them either, but they are certainly not made with that demographic primarily in mind. In that regard, there is a huge difference between both Terminator movies. The first movie is a more serious, somber, gritty, pessimistic, dark, mature sci-fi movie, the second one is a more light-hearted, action-oriented movie. Two very different primary audiences in mind here. For example, there is very little "comedy" bits in the first movie, and the little that there is, it is again geared towards a more mature audience. The second movie, on the other hand, has plenty of more light-hearted comedy bits. Again, the fact that T2's main protagonist is a teenager is another tell-tale sign of who this movie is primarily aimed at. On the other hand, the only teenagers in the first Terminator movie are anonymous extras. They do not play any important role whatsoever in the story. It is clearly an adult-oriented movie in every aspect.

Regarding the story itself: I find the first movie better than the second one. The second one simply tries to follow up on the story of the first one, as it should be expected. But like all sequels, it simply will never be as original, impacting and ground-breaking as the first.

What T2 does have over the first one is a bigger budget, indeed.

[MinionZombie]

Again, the fact that T2's main protagonist is a teenager is another tell-tale sign of who this movie is primarily aimed at. On the other hand, the only teenagers in the first Terminator movie are anonymous extras. They do not play any important role whatsoever in the story. It is clearly an adult-oriented movie in every aspect.

It's not as if T2 shoves a kid protagonist in willy nilly - he's there for a very good reason: he's John Connor, future leader of the resistance.

Plus, with only 6-7 years passing since the first movie, you couldn't have John Connor be much older than he already was in the movie (about 10-12).

But just because T2 has more spectacle, doesn't simply mean it's for a "younger audience". There's fans of that movie who first saw it at all ages, and there's plenty in T2 that has deeper thought going on - we again explore the surrogate parent/family idea that JC explored in Aliens, for instance.

T1 was hardly aimed at a middle-aged audience, either. Linda Hamilton was only 27/28 when she made the movie, Michael Biehn was young as well (only about a year older than Hamilton). The music featured in the film, too, skews very much to a younger adult audience (the Tech Noir bar scenes in particular, as well as Sarah's bestie Ginger - two young gals about town, doing menial jobs and hitting the dating scene etc).

[shootemindehead]

The Terminator was very much a harder hitting film than Terminator 2 was. To me it was always more horror orientated (it's basically a slasher film with a robot instead of a psycho) than the soft sci-fi of the second feature. Terminator 2 was always a more noisier, dumbed down, rock and roll movie, full of flash and bang. It even had Guns'N'Roses on the soundtrack.

Frankly why it was given an 18's cert in the cinema is beyond me. But it later was reduced to 15 on video. Although the first movie was reduced as well, I still think that the tone of each film is very different indeed and at the time of each release, the films were viewed quite differently. You would have been more likely to find 'The Terminator' in the Horror section of your local video shop, along side 'A Nightmare on Elm Street', etc.

[JDP]

It's not as if T2 shoves a kid protagonist in willy nilly - he's there for a very good reason: he's John Connor, future leader of the resistance.

Plus, with only 6-7 years passing since the first movie, you couldn't have John Connor be much older than he already was in the movie (about 10-12).

But just because T2 has more spectacle, doesn't simply mean it's for a "younger audience". There's fans of that movie who first saw it at all ages, and there's plenty in T2 that has deeper thought going on - we again explore the surrogate parent/family idea that JC explored in Aliens, for instance.

T1 was hardly aimed at a middle-aged audience, either. Linda Hamilton was only 27/28 when she made the movie, Michael Biehn was young as well (only about a year older than Hamilton). The music featured in the film, too, skews very much to a younger adult audience (the Tech Noir bar scenes in particular, as well as Sarah's bestie Ginger - two young gals about town, doing menial jobs and hitting the dating scene etc).

I saw both movies at the movie theaters when they were brand new. My impression of both was and has always been quite different. So is the impression of everyone else I know who also saw them back in the days. The first movie is a dark sci-fi horror film all the way through, the second movie is a flashy over-the-top sci-fi action romp.

The main protagonists of the first movie are all adults (late 20s and beyond.)

Everything about the first movie is more adult-oriented than the second one. There's just no comparison. When I saw T2 I was a bit disappointed precisely because of that (and the hardly believable "mercury" robot), even though I still enjoyed it for what it is. But it just is not in the same league as the first movie. Not even close. The first one is a sci-fi masterpiece, a "benchmark", one of those movies by which others in the genre are judged, like John Carpenter's The Thing or the 1978 remake of Invasion of the Body Snatchers. Not even James Cameron himself will ever be able to top his own masterpiece.

[beat_truck]

The Terminator was very much a harder hitting film than Terminator 2 was. To me it was always more horror orientated (it's basically a slasher film with a robot instead of a psycho) than the soft sci-fi of the second feature. Terminator 2 was always a more noisier, dumbed down, rock and roll movie, full of flash and bang. It even had Guns'N'Roses on the soundtrack.


Agreed.
I much prefer T1 over T2. Another thing, the damn kid screaming constantly in T2 got on my nerves, too. T2 had bigger, more polished effects, but that really doesn't make a movie for me.

[shootemindehead]

Agreed.
I much prefer T1 over T2. Another thing, the damn kid screaming constantly in T2 got on my nerves, too. T2 had bigger, more polished effects, but that really doesn't make a movie for me.

Well, I have to admit, I've never really been that much of a fan, although I've seen it a few times. I think the liquid robot idea was stupid and all it really has going for it is that it was "biggerer and betterer" than the 1984 movie. It louder, more brash, and has RGB! And this time Arnie's the good guy!

However, 'The Terminator' was and still it the superior movie when all is said and done.

I'd like to see a special edition of that film, one which cleans up the dodgy animatronics. But, that's really the only criticism I have about it.

[Neil]

I saw both movies at the movie theaters when they were brand new. My impression of both was and has always been quite different. So is the impression of everyone else I know who also saw them back in the days. The first movie is a dark sci-fi horror film all the way through, the second movie is a flashy over-the-top sci-fi action romp.
Again, I'd agree T1 is a darker film, and aimed more at adults. But I'd repeat again, that does not mean T2 doesn't have a solid dark thread through it, or is dumbed down... I mean describing/including this as a romp? :)

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[MinionZombie]

Again, I'd agree T1 is a darker film, and aimed more at adults. But I'd repeat again, that does not mean T2 doesn't have a solid dark thread through it, or is dumbed down... I mean describing/including this as a romp? :)

I know, right? 'Cos Sarah Connor's mental collapse, imprisonment in an insane asylum (where she is, presumably - cos of that cheek-licking creep - sexually abused), losing custody of her own child, total breakdown when she tries to kill Miles Dyson (in front of his entire family!) etc etc just screams of boppin' teens.

Just because it's bigger and splashier with large set pieces, doesn't mean it's some tossaway bubblegum fare. I'm baffled by that view of T2.

T1 and T2 are indeed different films with different vibes, but it's not as if T1 doesn't contain a boatload of action as well. The gun battle in Tech Noir, the future-set sequences, the shotgun battle (in speeding cars, no less), the assault on the police station, the 4x4 vs truck chase (the latter of which blows up in a huge fireball), and the factory finale. The scale is smaller by comparison to T2, obviously, but T1 is loaded with action sequences.

[JDP]

I know, right? 'Cos Sarah Connor's mental collapse, imprisonment in an insane asylum (where she is, presumably - cos of that cheek-licking creep - sexually abused), losing custody of her own child, total breakdown when she tries to kill Miles Dyson (in front of his entire family!) etc etc just screams of boppin' teens.

Plenty of movies primarily directed at teens have such violent elements.


Just because it's bigger and splashier with large set pieces, doesn't mean it's some tossaway bubblegum fare. I'm baffled by that view of T2.

T1 and T2 are indeed different films with different vibes, but it's not as if T1 doesn't contain a boatload of action as well. The gun battle in Tech Noir, the future-set sequences, the shotgun battle (in speeding cars, no less), the assault on the police station, the 4x4 vs truck chase (the latter of which blows up in a huge fireball), and the factory finale. The scale is smaller by comparison to T2, obviously, but T1 is loaded with action sequences.

All of them more toned down and believable than those of T2. The first movie is a more balanced film. Perfect doses of action and slower paced plot/character-development moments. The first movie also has a more realistic and believable take on science fiction. I can totally believe in the machines of the first movie. We are in fact gradually getting closer and closer to being able to build such "AI" machines (scary shit, when you carefully think about what it could potentially lead to.) But I sure as heck cannot believe in that shape-shifting "mercury robot" thing of T2. Too far-fetched. It is something I would expect to see in a fantasy story rather than a serious sci-fi story.

[EvilNed]

Terminator Dark Fate is no better than Terminator Genisys, and I don't see how anyone involved in it could think that what they were doing was a massive improvement over their previous attempt at rebooting the franchise.

That's all I have to say.

As for T1 vs T2, I think T2 is better and more interesting, but T1 really knocks it out of the park as well.

[paranoid101]

For me its T1 that I sightly enjoy more, what Cameron did with the budget he had is amazing, The Night club scene, Police station shootout ans end chase all fantastic.

T2 is a really close and I mean really close second.

As for the rest I can get some enjoyment out of the Christian Bale one, The others if I never saw them again it wouldn't be a loss.

[Neil]

For me its T1 that I sightly enjoy more, what Cameron did with the budget he had is amazing, The Night club scene, Police station shootout ans end chase all fantastic.

T2 is a really close and I mean really close second.

As for the rest I can get some enjoyment out of the Christian Bale one, The others if I never saw them again it wouldn't be a loss.

Not seen the Bale one...

[JDP]

For me its T1 that I sightly enjoy more, what Cameron did with the budget he had is amazing, The Night club scene, Police station shootout ans end chase all fantastic.

T2 is a really close and I mean really close second.

As for the rest I can get some enjoyment out of the Christian Bale one, The others if I never saw them again it wouldn't be a loss.

I stopped watching after T3. Everything after T2 = absolute nonsense, did not happen. As far as I am concerned, there's only really been two Terminator movies.

[beat_truck]

Same here. T3 is the newest I've seen, and I remember basically nothing about it. I have the DVD, but I doubt it is worth revisiting.

[EvilNed]

T3 is alright, but T2 was such a tough act to follow that "alright" just doesn't cut it.

The rest get progressively worse. Again, I cannot fathom how anyone involved in T...6? Can see it as all that different or superior to T5. They're so similar.

[MinionZombie]

T3 is alright, but T2 was such a tough act to follow that "alright" just doesn't cut it.

The rest get progressively worse. Again, I cannot fathom how anyone involved in T...6? Can see it as all that different or superior to T5. They're so similar.

T3 was awful. It was the beginning of 'super Terminators' (i.e. filmmakers who hadn't paid attention to the limit of toughness of the T-800s in the first two movies), and takes every opportunity to poke fun at Arnie as the T-800 ("talk to the hand", the male strip club get up, the yee-haw voice in that corporate video etc etc etc). It also shits all over the ending of T2, which tied things up nicely, and ignores the whole 'fate is what we make' angle of the second movie. There's a couple of decent action sequences, but again, they ignore the toughness of a T-800. They aren't indestructible, yet from T3 onwards they practically are.

T4 had potential - setting it in the future war - something I'd been wanting since I was a kid. But McG directed it. It was PG-13. There's that annoying kid who doesn't do or say anything. They gave away the big reveal in the trailer. There's no logic in the movie either (e.g. see the gas station attack - silence silence silence SNEAK ATTACK BY THE LOUDEST MACHINE EVER). There were some cool things (e.g. getting to see the T-600s with their rubber skin - they were very creepy and effective, the gritty war-like aesthetic), but it took 'super Terminators' to a whole new level of sucking. In T2 they use molten steel to UTTERLY DESTROY a T-800 (and T-1000) ... but in this movie molten steel only slows down a T-800 for a couple minutes. Asinine.

T5. John Connor's bad now, and a Terminator? Go fuck yourself. More silliness aimed at Arnie, too, undercutting his on-screen power. Kyle Reese in this movie? Big nope. Casting missed the mark by a friggin' mile, as did the script. It also smacked of greed by planning multiple sequels. Can barely remember anything about it. More CGI overload and 'super Terminator nonsense.

T6. Haven't seen it yet, but know who they kill in the opening minutes. Go fuck yourself.

[EvilNed]

T3 was awful. It was the beginning of 'super Terminators' (i.e. filmmakers who hadn't paid attention to the limit of toughness of the T-800s in the first two movies), and takes every opportunity to poke fun at Arnie as the T-800 ("talk to the hand", the male strip club get up, the yee-haw voice in that corporate video etc etc etc). It also shits all over the ending of T2, which tied things up nicely, and ignores the whole 'fate is what we make' angle of the second movie. There's a couple of decent action sequences, but again, they ignore the toughness of a T-800. They aren't indestructible, yet from T3 onwards they practically are.

T4 had potential - setting it in the future war - something I'd been wanting since I was a kid. But McG directed it. It was PG-13. There's that annoying kid who doesn't do or say anything. They gave away the big reveal in the trailer. There's no logic in the movie either (e.g. see the gas station attack - silence silence silence SNEAK ATTACK BY THE LOUDEST MACHINE EVER). There were some cool things (e.g. getting to see the T-600s with their rubber skin - they were very creepy and effective, the gritty war-like aesthetic), but it took 'super Terminators' to a whole new level of sucking. In T2 they use molten steel to UTTERLY DESTROY a T-800 (and T-1000) ... but in this movie molten steel only slows down a T-800 for a couple minutes. Asinine.

T5. John Connor's bad now, and a Terminator? Go fuck yourself. More silliness aimed at Arnie, too, undercutting his on-screen power. Kyle Reese in this movie? Big nope. Casting missed the mark by a friggin' mile, as did the script. It also smacked of greed by planning multiple sequels. Can barely remember anything about it. More CGI overload and 'super Terminator nonsense.

T6. Haven't seen it yet, but know who they kill in the opening minutes. Go fuck yourself.

Do yourself a favor and don't watch T6. You're not gonna like it.

[MinionZombie]

Do yourself a favor and don't watch T6. You're not gonna like it.

Yeah, I figure I probably won't ... but I'm curious nonetheless ... but I'm just waiting for it to roll around onto the telly box. No way I was paying and going through the faff of seeing that in the cinema.