What were the bikers in Dawn tossing grenades at?

[JDP]

Does anyone know what exactly is it that the bikers in Dawn are blowing up with grenades when they start invading the mall? They are not aiming the grenades at the zombies. Whatever zombies they blow up in the process are "collateral damage". They are aiming them at something else that is not clearly shown on screen. You can hear pieces of metal clashing on the floor after the blasts, so it must be some kind of structure that they want to remove.

[MinionZombie]

Does anyone know what exactly is it that the bikers in Dawn are blowing up with grenades when they start invading the mall? They are not aiming the grenades at the zombies. Whatever zombies they blow up in the process are "collateral damage". They are aiming them at something else that is not clearly shown on screen. You can hear pieces of metal clashing on the floor after the blasts, so it must be some kind of structure that they want to remove.

I think they're generally just causing havoc. They have no regard for property and anyone else's strongholds. They're just off on an extended jolly committing any and all acts of violence, thievery, and so on that they can squeeze in before they meet their end.

They have some trouble opening up that side entrance/loading door initially - shooting locks, going on about the little "mouse hole" and how the whole glass side slides open (thus allowing their motorcycles to charge in) - so perhaps some grenades are to do with that in some regard. There's that bit of behind the scenes footage where they're filming an explosion at the side entrance and the charge was a bit larger than expected and it actually caused some damage to the ceiling and some broken glass.

[JDP]

I think they're generally just causing havoc. They have no regard for property and anyone else's strongholds. They're just off on an extended jolly committing any and all acts of violence, thievery, and so on that they can squeeze in before they meet their end.

They have some trouble opening up that side entrance/loading door initially - shooting locks, going on about the little "mouse hole" and how the whole glass side slides open (thus allowing their motorcycles to charge in) - so perhaps some grenades are to do with that in some regard. There's that bit of behind the scenes footage where they're filming an explosion at the side entrance and the charge was a bit larger than expected and it actually caused some damage to the ceiling and some broken glass.

I think they would not be wasting grenades on just vandalism. There are more pressing matters at hand. These guys were blowing something up on purpose, something that seems to have been on their way and they wanted it removed to facilitate their entry into the mall. It is not the trucks blocking the entrances, as one site I saw claims. These are intact when the bikers start climbing in to try to move them. So, they do not seem to be the intended target. I thought maybe it was one of those storefront security metal gates, but this happens on the outside of the mall, not inside. I don't recall seeing these metal gates on the outside of the mall in any of the sequences that show the parking lot area.

[MinionZombie]

IIRC they shoot at the metal gates on storefronts inside the mall, and one or two shot at locks outside of the mall - and then that's when the guy chirps up about the whole glass side sliding open.

Why not use grenades for vandalism? They're not exactly strategic thinkers, just run and gun raiders who do perform an awful lot of vandalism inside the mall anyway. If you're having a jolly and have, most likely, half-inched some army supplies along the way, why not fuck around as much as you like? Longevity and the importance of preserving arms in an apocalyptic scenario are pretty low on their priorities list, I'd wager.

[JDP]

IIRC they shoot at the metal gates on storefronts inside the mall, and one or two shot at locks outside of the mall - and then that's when the guy chirps up about the whole glass side sliding open.

No, the shooting of the storefront metal gates happens once they have gained access to the inside of the mall. The part where the leader tells them to open the whole sliding doors happens before, when they are working their way in by attempting to move the trucks.


Why not use grenades for vandalism? They're not exactly strategic thinkers, just run and gun raiders who do perform an awful lot of vandalism inside the mall anyway. If you're having a jolly and have, most likely, half-inched some army supplies along the way, why not fuck around as much as you like? Longevity and the importance of preserving arms in an apocalyptic scenario are pretty low on their priorities list, I'd wager.

Because they are very different situations: once they are inside the mall they want to have fun, there's lots of room to maneuver, and they have access to a load of free stuff they can afford to waste on just being the jolly ol' vandals they love to be. But before that, they are trying to break into the mall, their main objective, and are surrounded by hostile zombies all over the place. A more pressing situation, they cannot afford to be wasteful. They will employ those grenades on something that can be useful for their objective of breaking into the mall.

Further evidence that they are blowing up some kind of structure: in the first blast you can actually see debris falling down (and we can also hear it hitting the floor, and it is unquestionably the clanking sound of metal pieces hitting a hard surface.) Unfortunately, during that shot we cannot clearly see what is it that the grenades are blasting apart.

[shootemindehead]

They threw grenades cos George said throw grenades. I don't think there was much thought behind it other than that.

[JDP]

They threw grenades cos George said throw grenades. I don't think there was much thought behind it other than that.

Yes, but George also said "let there be debris falling down and the sound of metal parts clashing on the pavement right after the blasts". So, what is it that he was having the bikers blow up???

[MinionZombie]

Why must you know so pressingly? :D

They're just trying to gain access by any means, including grenades. Also I did say that they shoot locks inside the mall.

But if you're looking for absolute logic, you're not really gonna get it. For example, why would directly shooting the metal security gates cause them to automatically rise up?

There was a lot of run 'n' gun filmmaking going on (hence the number of times keen-eyed viewers can spot things like crew members, motorists, lighting stands etc in the peripheries of the shot) and a lot of stuff was made up on-the-spot to boot. It's remarkable they were able to gather as much footage as they did, especially for the biker raid, on that schedule and that budget.

The raiders aren't exactly the most rational-minded folks, so ammo preservation isn't likely going to be a trait for people who use the raiding time to snatch up gold necklaces instead of food, or use a blood pressure machine in the midst of absolute chaos (the latter is ultimately an excuse for a good gore gag).

[Moon Knight]

I always just saw it as them trying to get a locked gate open. Something like that.

[paranoid101]

I always thought it was just the bikers having fun and causing mayhem in raid, but I really haven't put much thought into and I don't think George did either.

[JDP]

I always just saw it as them trying to get a locked gate open. Something like that.

I think so too, or maybe some kind of store display window on the outside walls of the mall. During the first explosion and the last shot of the blasted area we can see part of the ceiling on the inside of the mall. My guess is that there was some kind of obstacle there not making it easy for them to try to break through that spot and thus they wanted it out of the way.

[MinionZombie]

I think so too, or maybe some kind of store display window on the outside walls of the mall. During the first explosion and the last shot of the blasted area we can see part of the ceiling on the inside of the mall. My guess is that there was some kind of obstacle there not making it easy for them to try to break through that spot and thus they wanted it out of the way.

Might that be the explosion that went wrong on-location? The one I mentioned earlier - it blew out a chunk of ceiling and smashed glass.

You can see that aforementioned footage here - skip to 5:04:

td_CT5Vuth4?t=304

[JDP]

Might that be the explosion that went wrong on-location? The one I mentioned earlier - it blew out a chunk of ceiling and smashed glass.

You can see that aforementioned footage here - skip to 5:04:

td_CT5Vuth4?t=304

Yes, it looks like this was part of the grenades sequence.

[facestabber]

In the ZA, with access to grenades, the question I would have for myself would be, "what wouldnt I throw grenades at". As far as the film goes I never gave it much thought past "boys with toys". Romero wasnt one to have a weapons consultant for practical application of said weapons. He went for what he thought was cool and could illustrate a neat camera trick. Example was having Peter acquire a large caliber lever action rifle to use the scope camera. The M16 20" rifles would have been so much more practical to use. 5.56 Nato box fed mag(quick reload), accurate, low recoil. ***side note in the movie the prop guns used were actually .22 LR guns(see Peters untactical mag change at airport and ejection port at various scenes). Ok I'm rambling I know. I have no answer to your question JDP. Someone on the cast would know if there was more intention. Doesnt PhillySwat have connections with folks on the inside?


Edit. Ok so I decided to try some research on this. I looked up "guns of Dawn of the Dead". And wow it had a topic and photos of the bikers grenade toss of the Mk 2 pineapple grenade. The description said they were used to "blow up the trucks at the mall entrance". I'd say this source confirms you JDP. This sight also confirms my observation of the M-16's actually being .22 LR guns.....Adler-Jager AP-74 (Admittedly never heard of them before but I was 2 when Dawn was released so give me a break)

[JDP]

In the ZA, with access to grenades, the question I would have for myself would be, "what wouldnt I throw grenades at". As far as the film goes I never gave it much thought past "boys with toys". Romero wasnt one to have a weapons consultant for practical application of said weapons. He went for what he thought was cool and could illustrate a neat camera trick. Example was having Peter acquire a large caliber lever action rifle to use the scope camera. The M16 20" rifles would have been so much more practical to use. 5.56 Nato box fed mag(quick reload), accurate, low recoil. ***side note in the movie the prop guns used were actually .22 LR guns(see Peters untactical mag change at airport and ejection port at various scenes). Ok I'm rambling I know. I have no answer to your question JDP. Someone on the cast would know if there was more intention. Doesnt PhillySwat have connections with folks on the inside?


Edit. Ok so I decided to try some research on this. I looked up "guns of Dawn of the Dead". And wow it had a topic and photos of the bikers grenade toss of the Mk 2 pineapple grenade. The description said they were used to "blow up the trucks at the mall entrance". I'd say this source confirms you JDP. This sight also confirms my observation of the M-16's actually being .22 LR guns.....Adler-Jager AP-74 (Admittedly never heard of them before but I was 2 when Dawn was released so give me a break)

Yes, I saw that site, but it doesn't seem like the trucks were damaged, they were even attempting to drive them. The first explosion clearly happens in an area where there is some kind of window. You can see the ceiling of the mall. What was it supposed to be (in the movie)? Maybe some store display window on the outside of the mall?

Regarding the use of the grenades: obviously their best use would be against the most immediate threat, namely the large group of zombies in the area. Throw them at where they are the most packed together in order to maximize the damage against them.

Regarding Peter's rifle: I think that was because at this point they no longer have access to large amounts of ammo for their SWAT issued weapons, and now have access to a large amount of hunting weapons and ammo instead. It makes sense for them to adopt this new found arsenal.

[MinionZombie]

I've just re-watched Dawn tonight and it reminded me of this topic thread.

There's only a couple of grenades that get thrown, one of them specifically targeting a zombie. The first blows a chunk out of the ceiling on the exterior of the entrance via which the bikers eventually invade the mall.

It would have made more sense for them to blow up the glass, but obviously for the reality of the production itself that was a no-go. You see, as they're invading the mall, what looks like a fair bit of damage to that exterior ceiling portion - lots of tiles missing, some bent metal supports dangling etc.

Watching it again, it really does come off as nothing more than a bunch of yahoos whooping it up (these are the sorts who think it's a grand idea to test their blood pressure and have a pie fight during a raid, after all). They intend to move a truck to gain access (the "mouse hole"), but the biker who was talking on the radio points out that the whole glass side swings open, so an easy shoot up of the lock and in they go. The grenades don't really seem to be part of any kind of specific strategy to gain access. Just some explosive fun.

[JDP]

I've just re-watched Dawn tonight and it reminded me of this topic thread.

There's only a couple of grenades that get thrown, one of them specifically targeting a zombie. The first blows a chunk out of the ceiling on the exterior of the entrance via which the bikers eventually invade the mall.

It would have made more sense for them to blow up the glass, but obviously for the reality of the production itself that was a no-go. You see, as they're invading the mall, what looks like a fair bit of damage to that exterior ceiling portion - lots of tiles missing, some bent metal supports dangling etc.

Watching it again, it really does come off as nothing more than a bunch of yahoos whooping it up (these are the sorts who think it's a grand idea to test their blood pressure and have a pie fight during a raid, after all). They intend to move a truck to gain access (the "mouse hole"), but the biker who was talking on the radio points out that the whole glass side swings open, so an easy shoot up of the lock and in they go. The grenades don't really seem to be part of any kind of specific strategy to gain access. Just some explosive fun.

We see a zombie get blown up, but one hardly expects that it was the intended target. Like I said before, any zombies blown up in the process are incidental, they just happen to be around all over the place, so it is perfectly understandable why some of them would get hit by the explosions. If the zombies were the intended target they would be throwing those grenades at where they congregate in the largest numbers. But that's not what they do. And it is hardly logical they wanted to waste grenades on just "having fun", when they are in fact surrounded all over the place by hostile zombies. They start fooling around and having fun once they break into the mall, where they have plenty of space and access to loads of free stuff they can easily afford to waste on just plain old vandalism. Before that, it's "business" first: clear up the zombies around the entrances and whatever obstacles that may be around that make it difficult to break in into the place. No time for tomfoolery in that setting.

[MinionZombie]

No time for tomfoolery? That's the majority of what they do. They attack numerous zombies with sledgehammers, spray soda water in their faces, steal their wallets and jewelry. The gang are already whooping it up when they arrive - they're already doing that on the radio, and as they drive in (firecrackers in the road).

Grenades wouldn't be particularly tactical for them - it's a big explosion and lots of fun to throw them about. These are people who steal display cases of gold rings and necklaces, rob the bank, steal mannequins (and nearly a shirt a tie). Sense isn't really in their vocabulary. Despite months on the road raiding, they're still going after shiny things and gold. About the only useful thing they raided was the gun store.

[Moon Knight]

The shirt and tie :lol:

[JDP]

No time for tomfoolery? That's the majority of what they do. They attack numerous zombies with sledgehammers, spray soda water in their faces, steal their wallets and jewelry. The gang are already whooping it up when they arrive - they're already doing that on the radio, and as they drive in (firecrackers in the road).

Grenades wouldn't be particularly tactical for them - it's a big explosion and lots of fun to throw them about. These are people who steal display cases of gold rings and necklaces, rob the bank, steal mannequins (and nearly a shirt a tie). Sense isn't really in their vocabulary. Despite months on the road raiding, they're still going after shiny things and gold. About the only useful thing they raided was the gun store.

What you are referring to happens INSIDE the mall, not OUTSIDE. Once they break in, yes, they want to have fun while looting the place. When they are in the more pressing setting of the parking lot, though, they are not in the mood for fooling around. The priority there is to find a way into the mall. They mean business. All they do there is blow up things and massacre the zombies near the entrances. The behavior you would naturally expect: you need to clear up those potential points of entry into the mall.

You said it yourself: these guys have been surviving in this outdoors hostile environment for months. They know what they are doing. Wasting grenades on just "having fun" does not sound like something that people who have been successfully surviving this apocalyptic battlefield for this long would want to do. It is not the same as throwing firecrackers. Firecrackers are for fun, they are just noisemakers. Grenades are potentially useful tools. Big difference.

Regarding the money/jewelry: Dawn happens at a time when such things still have value (very much like Land, BTW, and quite unlike Day). Organized society has still not fully collapsed. Peter and Flyboy also cautiously steal money from the bank ("you never know" if it will come handy later on. There was no way for them to surely know that the situation would in fact only get worse, as we see in Day, where money is now worthless, as there is no longer any organized form of government left anywhere and most survivors have gone underground.) It is not surprising, then, that the bikers will also want to loot such things. As long as things have some value, they will steal them.

[MinionZombie]

If they were really so precious about ammo, they wouldn't be spraying bullets around all over the place like mad men. Inside and outside the mall they're firing off rounds like there's an endless supply. Food and Ammo are their most precious resources in their situation, yet the latter they spray all over the place and the former they don't even bother gathering.

Once inside the mall they're not 'all business' - hence the custard pie fight, the scattergun style of looting, the vandalism, the blood pressure machine etc etc etc.

They're not using the grenades tactically, and Romero likely didn't put that kind of thought into it - the raid on the mall is just unbridled carnage and chaos. Indeed, they're almost using the grenades as if they were firecrackers, just tossing them about. They're all in it for themselves as this very loose band of hoodlums causing havoc. They don't give a shit when one of their own gets gunned down. They're greed and consumer hypnotism at its most vile and unencumbered. There's barely any shred of tactical approach. They scout the location and pick the night (the latter as much for production logistics as any in-story reason), but it's basically 'open door, steal shit, try not to get bit' and nothing else. Tactics and weapons conservation aren't much in their interests.

They're still in a land of plenty. By the point the raiders attack, the calendar on the wall in the 'apartment' suggests it's been somewhere around 11 weeks, but let's say three months for ease. Easy pickings for the raiders. Conservation won't be on their minds as they'll have had plenty of, well, plenty at their fingertips.

[JDP]

If they were really so precious about ammo, they wouldn't be spraying bullets around all over the place like mad men. Inside and outside the mall they're firing off rounds like there's an endless supply. Food and Ammo are their most precious resources in their situation, yet the latter they spray all over the place and the former they don't even bother gathering.

Once inside the mall they're not 'all business' - hence the custard pie fight, the scattergun style of looting, the vandalism, the blood pressure machine etc etc etc.

They're not using the grenades tactically, and Romero likely didn't put that kind of thought into it - the raid on the mall is just unbridled carnage and chaos. Indeed, they're almost using the grenades as if they were firecrackers, just tossing them about. They're all in it for themselves as this very loose band of hoodlums causing havoc. They don't give a shit when one of their own gets gunned down. They're greed and consumer hypnotism at its most vile and unencumbered. There's barely any shred of tactical approach. They scout the location and pick the night (the latter as much for production logistics as any in-story reason), but it's basically 'open door, steal shit, try not to get bit' and nothing else. Tactics and weapons conservation aren't much in their interests.

They're still in a land of plenty. By the point the raiders attack, the calendar on the wall in the 'apartment' suggests it's been somewhere around 11 weeks, but let's say three months for ease. Easy pickings for the raiders. Conservation won't be on their minds as they'll have had plenty of, well, plenty at their fingertips.

The "spraying" of bullets is mostly because some of them have Tommy Guns. Ever seen gangster movies? That's how they are usually used: to spray bullets all over the place. And they definitely are aware of preserving ammo too, that's why they also use a lot of melee weapons to dispatch the zombies whenever possible: sledgehammers, machetes, swords, halberds, morning stars. When they loot the gun shop, they also take the bows and arrows. Anything they can use as weapons, they steal. Everything shows that these guys would not be wasting either ammo or grenades on just "having fun", especially not in a situation when the priority is something more urgent, like breaking into the place they want to loot. They are well aware of what the situation is. "They've been surviving on the road all through this thing", as Peter says. These guys know what they are doing. And it shows. The handful that get killed during the mall raid was mostly because of Peter gunning them down, not because of the zombies. They know how to handle them. Only a couple of them die because of being too careless around the zombies.

[shootemindehead]

You're trying to assign something to a scene that really isn't there. Romero probably didn't give a toss beyond something looking good for the camera.

You're over thinking this.

[JDP]

You're trying to assign something to a scene that really isn't there. Romero probably didn't give a toss beyond something looking good for the camera.

You're over thinking this.

The scene/sequence is there alright, we are not imagining that they are throwing grenades at areas around the entrances of the mall. It's just that Romero's way of shooting and editing sometimes leave question marks. Like the way he edited the sequence at the docks in the theatrical cut. It makes little sense, yet he appears to have been "OK" with it! But in that case he shot enough footage that it can make more sense when edited differently, as seen in the extended cut.

[shootemindehead]

You misunderstood what I said.

You're trying to assign something to a scene that really isn't there.

Of course the scene exists, but you're looking for meaning in something that had little meaning beyond looking good on camera.

[JDP]

You misunderstood what I said.

You're trying to assign something to a scene that really isn't there.

Of course the scene exists, but you're looking for meaning in something that had little meaning beyond looking good on camera.

If this was a matter of only looking good on camera, then Romero could have just had the bikers throw the grenades at an empty lot, no further thought necessary. It wouldn't make a difference, would it? As long as we get explosions on camera, everything is fine, right? But that's not what happens. The bikers are using the grenades during the part when they just arrive on the parking lot and are trying to find a way of breaking into the mall. Not before, not after. So, there is obviously some purpose to their actions. It is not just some thoughtless "let's just put some explosions on camera because it looks cool!" My point is that there is some purpose to their action of throwing the grenades. Some here think it was just the bikers "having fun" and "vandalism", which seems extremely unlikely to me considering the context. You want to break into a place that has been locked up and is surrounded by hundreds of hostile encroaching walking cannibal corpses, and you are seriously going to be wasting things like grenades on just "having fun" and thoughtless "vandalism"??? Nope, sorry, I am not convinced at all that this is what is going on here. Those grenades are obviously being employed for a more relevant purpose. Since their main objective at this point is to find a way into the mall, I think the most logical conclusion is that it has to do with that purpose.

[shootemindehead]

I'm not saying that it's completely thoughtless. But you are applying waaaaay too much here.

Romero was a pretty loose director. When you're a low budget director, you have to be in many ways. A lot of the time he just, literally, put things on the screen because he thought it would look good or create a compelling scene. The screwdriver zombie, for example, or the pie fight, or the guy taking his blood pressure. Some of his stuff works. Some doesn't.

You're trying to apply reasoning to something where there's not that much reasoning to apply.

However, the whole point of the biker gang scene (a very 70's trope) is to show mindless destruction. They aren't thinking of anything other than what they can nick. You're talking about people that steal jewellery...for what? It's worthless now. Some guy takes a TV, until his mate says "what are you going to watch on that thing?" Then he mindlessly smashes it to pieces. They parade through the mall on their bikes wrecking the place. And no doubt if they had caught up to Fran, Peter and Stephen, they would have just killed them.

These guys are fucking idiots. They're merely on a destructive ride because the world has gone to shit and there's no cops around to stop them.

[JDP]

I'm not saying that it's completely thoughtless. But you are applying waaaaay too much here.

Romero was a pretty loose director. When you're a low budget director, you have to be in many ways. A lot of the time he just, literally, put things on the screen because he thought it would look good or create a compelling scene. The screwdriver zombie, for example, or the pie fight, or the guy taking his blood pressure. Some of his stuff works. Some doesn't.

You're trying to apply reasoning to something where there's not that much reasoning to apply.

However, the whole point of the biker gang scene (a very 70's trope) is to show mindless destruction. They aren't thinking of anything other than what they can nick. You're talking about people that steal jewellery...for what? It's worthless now. Some guy takes a TV, until his mate says "what are you going to watch on that thing?" Then he mindlessly smashes it to pieces. They parade through the mall on their bikes wrecking the place. And no doubt if they had caught up to Fran, Peter and Stephen, they would have just killed them.

These guys are fucking idiots. They're merely on a destructive ride because the world has gone to shit and there's no cops around to stop them.

All characters in this movie are interested in things that still have value. As pointed out before, Peter and Flyboy also steal money from the bank. Gold, silver & jewels must also still have value, otherwise the bikers would not waste their time with them either. They ought to know more than anyone else what has value or not: they have been surviving "out there" for months. They must know what still can be traded/bartered for other things in what still remains functional of society.

The TV thing looks like a comedy gag. In all that excitement and adrenaline rush, that biker just casually "forgets" that the TV stations are not broadcasting anything anymore, until one of his looting buddies reminds him that such things are useless now. Therefore it gets smashed.

The raiders do not seem to be interested in the mall folk beyond basically just warn them that their neat little plan of keeping the mall all for themselves is about to get "fucked up real bad" (actually, that was even "nice" of them, to give the mall folk a warning of what's coming their way!) As Peter points out, "they're after the place, they don't care about us." As long as the mall folk stay out of their way, the bikers don't seem to mind them. It was Flyboy who actually lost his cool there and ended up causing a war between both groups. The bikers were minding their own business until they got shot at first, not the other way around.

[MinionZombie]

Peter and Stephen do indeed steal some money and get blinged up a bit with new clothes etc, but they're also feathering their nest up there in the converted storage room. They also do that only about 4 weeks into the ZA, whereas when the bikers come along we're up to 12 weeks into the ZA and the TV hasn't been broadcasting for several days. "My God, what have we done to ourselves?" says Fran, and they all take a step back and reset their sights - there's hope for them, but sadly the bikers just so happen to be there right at the wrong time for our little group of survivors, who have kinda 'learned their lesson'. The bikers are still acting like it's the beginning.

When our group first get to the mall Fran says how they're all "hypnotised" by the place, but towards the end of the film the spell is breaking. The bikers, on the other hand, are well and truly still under the spell and it's all about greed and plenty and take-take-take, their minds still very much in the pre-ZA world, snatching up all the stuff they'd wished they could pillage with impunity in the old world.

Shoot - indeed, lots of stuff thrown in. Although the screwdriver zombie did have a specific purpose in itself - to cover a continuity error (hence why the top tied around Roger's waist gets trapped in the zombie's grip). I loved hearing that story. An iconic scene that almost never happened and was improvised and stuffed into the schedule ... in fact, considering how much stuff they were kinda 'free styling' as they shot, it's amazing they got as much as they did. That still boggles my mind, just how much footage they got as well as the kind of footage they got - there's so much action and gunfire and stunts and effects and, yes, even explosions, in that final portion. The sheer volume of set-ups is crazy to think about.

[shootemindehead]

All characters in this movie are interested in things that still have value. As pointed out before, Peter and Flyboy also steal money from the bank. Gold, silver & jewels must also still have value, otherwise the bikers would not waste their time with them either. They ought to know more than anyone else what has value or not: they have been surviving "out there" for months. They must know what still can be traded/bartered for other things in what still remains functional of society.

The TV thing looks like a comedy gag. In all that excitement and adrenaline rush, that biker just casually "forgets" that the TV stations are not broadcasting anything anymore, until one of his looting buddies reminds him that such things are useless now. Therefore it gets smashed.

The raiders do not seem to be interested in the mall folk beyond basically just warn them that their neat little plan of keeping the mall all for themselves is about to get "fucked up real bad" (actually, that was even "nice" of them, to give the mall folk a warning of what's coming their way!) As Peter points out, "they're after the place, they don't care about us." As long as the mall folk stay out of their way, the bikers don't seem to mind them. It was Flyboy who actually lost his cool there and ended up causing a war between both groups. The bikers were minding their own business until they got shot at first, not the other way around.

There's a huge difference you're ignoring though, in that the heroes of the piece use their time relatively constructively to create a stronghold to protect themselves and each other, despite the fact that they pocketed a few bob and tarted themselves up for a while. In contrast the biker gang (who are designed as the enemies of the piece) are only interested in fucking things up.

And sure, Peter says "they're after the place, they don't care about us", but that doesn't mean that the biker gang wouldn't have been anything but completely hostile to Stephen, Peter and especially Fran if their paths had crossed, irrespective of Stephen losing his cool. Their antagonistic intent is clearly laid out by Romero from the beginning. They aren't whoops misunderstood nice guys. They're clearly the villains of the piece.



Shoot - indeed, lots of stuff thrown in. Although the screwdriver zombie did have a specific purpose in itself - to cover a continuity error (hence why the top tied around Roger's waist gets trapped in the zombie's grip). I loved hearing that story. An iconic scene that almost never happened and was improvised and stuffed into the schedule ... in fact, considering how much stuff they were kinda 'free styling' as they shot, it's amazing they got as much as they did. That still boggles my mind, just how much footage they got as well as the kind of footage they got - there's so much action and gunfire and stunts and effects and, yes, even explosions, in that final portion. The sheer volume of set-ups is crazy to think about.

Sure, screwdriver guy acts as a salve for a continuity error as well as an ad hoc cool looking gag. But the point is Romero could be very loose when he was filming and tended to go along with on the spur of the moment ideas and what he thought looked cool or funny at the time. Hence that awful pie fight scene, which Christine always hated and I'm in full agreement with her. :lol:

I'm personally not that big on the screwdriver zombie either. The way he just stands there like a mannequin and then lunges with cat like agility at Roger just always felt wrong to me. But he clearly illustrates Romero's off the cuff approach that he had at times. It's simply a gag that looked good in the moment and you're not really meant to mull these things over 40+ years after the fact.

[JDP]

Peter and Stephen do indeed steal some money and get blinged up a bit with new clothes etc, but they're also feathering their nest up there in the converted storage room. They also do that only about 4 weeks into the ZA, whereas when the bikers come along we're up to 12 weeks into the ZA and the TV hasn't been broadcasting for several days. "My God, what have we done to ourselves?" says Fran, and they all take a step back and reset their sights - there's hope for them, but sadly the bikers just so happen to be there right at the wrong time for our little group of survivors, who have kinda 'learned their lesson'. The bikers are still acting like it's the beginning.

When our group first get to the mall Fran says how they're all "hypnotised" by the place, but towards the end of the film the spell is breaking. The bikers, on the other hand, are well and truly still under the spell and it's all about greed and plenty and take-take-take, their minds still very much in the pre-ZA world, snatching up all the stuff they'd wished they could pillage with impunity in the old world.

Shoot - indeed, lots of stuff thrown in. Although the screwdriver zombie did have a specific purpose in itself - to cover a continuity error (hence why the top tied around Roger's waist gets trapped in the zombie's grip). I loved hearing that story. An iconic scene that almost never happened and was improvised and stuffed into the schedule ... in fact, considering how much stuff they were kinda 'free styling' as they shot, it's amazing they got as much as they did. That still boggles my mind, just how much footage they got as well as the kind of footage they got - there's so much action and gunfire and stunts and effects and, yes, even explosions, in that final portion. The sheer volume of set-ups is crazy to think about.

Unlike them, though, the bikers are "out there", they know what is going on better than people who have isolated themselves from the rest of the world and depend entirely on TV broadcasts for information. Therefore, if anyone knows what still has value "out there", it is them. And when they so relentlessly still pursue the theft of some items, it is obviously because they still have use for them. Otherwise they would not bother and would concentrate on other things instead. It doesn't make any sense that they would steal money and jewelry if those things have no value whatsoever at this point of the zombie crisis. Evidently those things still come in handy "out there" in the world that they dwell and survive on a daily basis.

The maintenance/janitor zombie introduced a few problem details as well: how exactly did this guy die when he was securely locked up inside that department store? One can understand why the security guard became a zombie; he was performing his duty of defending the mall from unwanted intruders (we see a dead zombie with a bullet hole on his head on one of the escalators, evidently shot down by the security guard), and he has the outward signs of having endured wounds in the process. But the zombie maintenance/janitor looks "intact", he does not appear to have had to struggle with the zombies. And he obviously would not have died of hunger since he had access to food inside the department store. Another thing is: where in blazes was he while Peter and Roger are looting the department store??? With all the noise that they are making, you would think that this zombie would have been strongly attracted to all this activity, yet he mysteriously shows up only after Flyboy arrives on the scene. Plus the way he seems to mimic a mannequin until a potential victim just passes nearby is another very un-zombie-like behavior.

[shootemindehead]

I'm sure that there's plenty of villains out there and what's of value to them is fucking things up, rape, murder and pilage.

[MinionZombie]

The maintenance/janitor zombie introduced a few problem details as well: how exactly did this guy die when he was securely locked up inside that department store? One can understand why the security guard became a zombie; he was performing his duty of defending the mall from unwanted intruders (we see a dead zombie with a bullet hole on his head on one of the escalators, evidently shot down by the security guard), and he has the outward signs of having endured wounds in the process. But the zombie maintenance/janitor looks "intact", he does not appear to have had to struggle with the zombies. And he obviously would not have died of hunger since he had access to food inside the department store. Another thing is: where in blazes was he while Peter and Roger are looting the department store??? With all the noise that they are making, you would think that this zombie would have been strongly attracted to all this activity, yet he mysteriously shows up only after Flyboy arrives on the scene. Plus the way he seems to mimic a mannequin until a potential victim just passes nearby is another very un-zombie-like behavior.

Romero or anyone else on the production clearly didn't think about any of that.

With Night, Romero put no deep thought into creating a consistent ghoul/zombie as at that time it was a new type of movie monster. There were a couple of simple rules, but beyond that, no real depth of thought put into working out the tiny details of how they would and wouldn't operate.

With the screwdriver zombie, the entire reason for that scene to exist is to cover up a continuity error. That's literally it. They needed something quick, so they did that. Great scene, but one which was never intended to stand up against microscopic scrutiny and cross examination. It's a good jump scare for the audience, who aren't expecting that to happen, moreso because it references a moment earlier where Roger gets a fright from one of the mannequins, him thinking it's a zombie.

As Shoot says, Romero had a loose approach to his filmmaking and was always ready to freestyle it, to experiment, to improvise - but of course, such an approach doesn't particularly gel with having 100% water tight movie monster logic, and you'll never ever ever find that with any of Romero's zombie flicks. You just won't, so it's madness to even try seeking such a thing.

[JDP]

Romero or anyone else on the production clearly didn't think about any of that.

With Night, Romero put no deep thought into creating a consistent ghoul/zombie as at that time it was a new type of movie monster. There were a couple of simple rules, but beyond that, no real depth of thought put into working out the tiny details of how they would and wouldn't operate.

With the screwdriver zombie, the entire reason for that scene to exist is to cover up a continuity error. That's literally it. They needed something quick, so they did that. Great scene, but one which was never intended to stand up against microscopic scrutiny and cross examination. It's a good jump scare for the audience, who aren't expecting that to happen, moreso because it references a moment earlier where Roger gets a fright from one of the mannequins, him thinking it's a zombie.

As Shoot says, Romero had a loose approach to his filmmaking and was always ready to freestyle it, to experiment, to improvise - but of course, such an approach doesn't particularly gel with having 100% water tight movie monster logic, and you'll never ever ever find that with any of Romero's zombie flicks. You just won't, so it's madness to even try seeking such a thing.

Such things are not difficult to "patch up", though. For example, you could easily have put some visible make-up wound on the maintenance/janitor zombie, that would give a readily deducible reason why this guy eventually died inside the secure setting of the locked up department store (he struggled with the zombies before he found his way into the department store, locked himself up there and died later on from his wounds), or show a scene of him in some sort of office or storage area of the department store, apart from the store's public areas, that's why he did not notice that Peter and Roger were running around and making noise in the store until later on when he came out from there. "As is", the zombie janitor/maintenance guy does not make much sense. He is a puzzling element. I think some of you are underestimating Romero's capability for logic. He many times shows that he is perfectly capable of coming up with and explicitly showing such self-explanatory details. For example, the zombie mall guard is adequately explained. There is nothing puzzling about him. By simply putting outward visible wounds on this guy and showing a dead zombie with a bullet hole on his head in a public area of the mall, Romero gave a means to his audience to easily deduce that this guy struggled with the invading zombies, got wounded in the process, went back to a secure place (i.e. the machine room and security area of the mall) where there were no zombies around, died later on from his wounds and became a zombie. It's not that difficult. Two well-placed, clearly visible details is all it took to explain that one. He could easily have done something similar for the zombie janitor/maintenance guy. Weird that he apparently did not think about justifying this one.

[MinionZombie]

He died of a heart attack, or appendicitis, or sepsis, or he wrapped his brain in knots trying to ascribe water tight logic where film production reality hasn't allowed it.

There. Move along. :D

[shootemindehead]

Next up...

Why the fuck did yer man decide to test his blood pressure when there were a ton of flesh eating ghouls walking around not 10 feet away?

[JDP]

He died of a heart attack, or appendicitis, or sepsis, or he wrapped his brain in knots trying to ascribe water tight logic where film production reality hasn't allowed it.

There. Move along. :D

Film production reality only would have required a visible wound on the guy. Same thing that it required for the security guard. It sure is not going to stretch the film's budget.

- - - Updated - - -


Next up...

Why the fuck did yer man decide to test his blood pressure when there were a ton of flesh eating ghouls walking around not 10 feet away?

That looter obviously has some weird fixation with that topic. Earlier, after Flyboy starts the war between both groups, he also tries testing his blood pressure. One of the other bikers reprimands him for it: WTH, we are being shot at and you are fooling around with that machine???

[MinionZombie]

Film production reality only would have required a visible wound on the guy. Same thing that it required for the security guard. It sure is not going to stretch the film's budget.

And yet they seemingly didn't, oopsie daisy, leave it at that, eh? Considering the sheer volume of footage they were gathering and the pace at which the production was moving, it's hardly surprising that they'd forget something like that. There are numerous other zombies that don't have visible wounds throughout the film. For instance, some may have died by suicide (i.e. overdose on pills).

Also, who knows what else they were shooting on that particular day (or night, rather) in the production? They didn't have many people available to do zombie make-ups, with a few people roped in to do the simplest task to fill out the ranks - slapping on some of that grey mixture for the skin tone. There might have not been the actual time to apply a wound before they shot the scene. An easy mix up in communication could have led to crossed wires, and so therefore you've not got a zombie ready for an upcoming scene you had thought was later in the day's shoot.

[Neil]

Next up...

Why the fuck did yer man decide to test his blood pressure when there were a ton of flesh eating ghouls walking around not 10 feet away?

That was one of the most bizarre moments of the film, and TBH was counter productive. These people had clearly survived the apocalypse where most had not. Clearly they had been careful enough to achieve this. Yet our numpty decided to pi$$ about risking his life with a horde of zombies all around? Hmmm... :duh:

[MinionZombie]

That was one of the most bizarre moments of the film, and TBH was counter productive. These people had clearly survived the apocalypse where most had not. Clearly they had been careful enough to achieve this. Yet our numpty decided to pi$$ about risking his life with a horde of zombies all around? Hmmm... :duh:

Good for a quality gore gag, and further proof of how this is just a marauding band of maniacs sweeping across the land like locusts.

[Neil]

pg7jIeU0hOooTaWYTqQU0c

[JDP]

That was one of the most bizarre moments of the film, and TBH was counter productive. These people had clearly survived the apocalypse where most had not. Clearly they had been careful enough to achieve this. Yet our numpty decided to pi$$ about risking his life with a horde of zombies all around? Hmmm... :duh:

There's some nuttier elements in the gang. This fellow is evidently one of them. One of the bikers even reprimands him for his careless behavior (when you are under fire, the most logical thing is to run for cover and shoot back, definitely not take your blood pressure while bullets are being exchanged!) Most of the other bikers were more cautious, that's why they keep on surviving.

[Neil]

...when you are under fire, the most logical thing is to run for cover and shoot back, definitely not take your blood pressure...Uber handy advice that :)

[shootemindehead]

That was one of the most bizarre moments of the film, and TBH was counter productive. These people had clearly survived the apocalypse where most had not. Clearly they had been careful enough to achieve this. Yet our numpty decided to pi$$ about risking his life with a horde of zombies all around? Hmmm... :duh:

Yeah, it's incredibly dumb and as a scene it doesn't work at all. It gets a pass because most of the rest of the movie is pretty good. But it's really a case where either nobody advised George not to do it or he ignored them and did it anyway.

[Moon Knight]

Yeah, it's incredibly dumb and as a scene it doesn't work at all. It gets a pass because most of the rest of the movie is pretty good. But it's really a case where either nobody advised George not to do it or he ignored them and did it anyway.

Yes, but still talked about to this day! Dawn of the Dead is goofy as hell and I love it for that.

[MinionZombie]

Yes, but still talked about to this day! Dawn of the Dead is goofy as hell and I love it for that.

I'd also argue that scenes such as the blood pressure machine and the pie fight actually fit quite nicely with the sheer chaos of the biker raid, and speaks to their unruly nature. It fits the tone of the flick, too. It's disco era, it's got more of a carnival feel to it, a little more comic book feel. It kinda suits the decade in which it was made quite nicely.

Night has the bleak nature of the 1960s, shot-through with political assinations, civil disobedience, and a heinous war. Day has the resurgence of nuclear warfare rhetoric on the tipping point where it could have gone one way or the other, as well as the complete and total death of the 'hippy dream' to the emboldening of the military industrial complex. Dawn has candy colours and the BeeGees, man.

There's a lot of selfishness and greed and violence and just having a laugh as the world burns going on in that group. Long term planning wouldn't be high on their agenda, based on their nature seen in the film. Brutal enough to survive as long as they have, but one also wonders just how much 'turnover' they have in that group - people joining, dying, others replacing them etc.

A loose band of likeminded folk, but you'd also wonder just how much each of them care about their fellow raiders. Our group of survivors care about each other, whereas this crowd of bikers raiding the mall are just balls out in it for themselves first and foremost.

They can't even manage to shut the fuck up while the one guy is on the radio trying to convince our group in the mall to let them in. You can tell how pissed he is - "Can this shit! Can it!" - while they're all hooting and hollering about their own whirly birds and so on. There's no discipline in that group and it just comes down to smashing their way in and grabbing whatever the fuck they can that's in sight. They're too busy thinking 'old world', grabbing up necklaces and sneakers. Common sense would be looking for hardy work clothes, thick jackets, boots, food etc. The only sensible thing they steal is weapons.

The mall is a playground and they treat it as such. Stealing a mannequin while wearing a giant hat? Real professional, but helps illustrate the ragtag nature of them. Peter may call them a "professional army", as technically that'd be a suitable description, but there's professional and professional. These loons aren't even up to The Dirty Dozen standards, they're way off.

[JDP]

I'd also argue that scenes such as the blood pressure machine and the pie fight actually fit quite nicely with the sheer chaos of the biker raid, and speaks to their unruly nature. It fits the tone of the flick, too. It's disco era, it's got more of a carnival feel to it, a little more comic book feel. It kinda suits the decade in which it was made quite nicely.

Night has the bleak nature of the 1960s, shot-through with political assinations, civil disobedience, and a heinous war. Day has the resurgence of nuclear warfare rhetoric on the tipping point where it could have gone one way or the other, as well as the complete and total death of the 'hippy dream' to the emboldening of the military industrial complex. Dawn has candy colours and the BeeGees, man.

There's a lot of selfishness and greed and violence and just having a laugh as the world burns going on in that group. Long term planning wouldn't be high on their agenda, based on their nature seen in the film. Brutal enough to survive as long as they have, but one also wonders just how much 'turnover' they have in that group - people joining, dying, others replacing them etc.

A loose band of likeminded folk, but you'd also wonder just how much each of them care about their fellow raiders. Our group of survivors care about each other, whereas this crowd of bikers raiding the mall are just balls out in it for themselves first and foremost.

They can't even manage to shut the fuck up while the one guy is on the radio trying to convince our group in the mall to let them in. You can tell how pissed he is - "Can this shit! Can it!" - while they're all hooting and hollering about their own whirly birds and so on. There's no discipline in that group and it just comes down to smashing their way in and grabbing whatever the fuck they can that's in sight. They're too busy thinking 'old world', grabbing up necklaces and sneakers. Common sense would be looking for hardy work clothes, thick jackets, boots, food etc. The only sensible thing they steal is weapons.

The mall is a playground and they treat it as such. Stealing a mannequin while wearing a giant hat? Real professional, but helps illustrate the ragtag nature of them. Peter may call them a "professional army", as technically that'd be a suitable description, but there's professional and professional. These loons aren't even up to The Dirty Dozen standards, they're way off.

The bikers are not "clinging" to the "old world", since it is technically "still around". It's "dying", but still around. Once again, it does not make any sense whatsoever that they would be so hell-bent on stealing the things that you see as "useless", even to the point of willing to risk their lives, if these things were really without any value whatsoever at this point. But you are not "there", they are! If anyone knows what is still valuable in that world, it is these guys. They are the ones surviving the whole thing, and not isolated inside some securely locked-up fully stocked building, but actually "out there", "boots on the ground" in this new battlefield.

Also: they seem to loot clothing as well (except the "suit and tie" type, naturally!)

[shootemindehead]

Yes, but still talked about to this day! Dawn of the Dead is goofy as hell and I love it for that.

Oh sure, it's goofy alright, and that's part of the charm.