Mac or PC for editing?

[MikePizzoff]

What does everyone use?

I am PC but have been thinking about converting to Mac recently, after hearing lots of good stuff. What do you guys think of Mac's for editing?

[MinionZombie]

I currently edit on a PC, because I also use the PC for a bunch of other stuff that is suited to a normal PC. However, if I was flushed with some cash and I wanted to get a stand-alone suite I'd go for Apple Mac, I've heard quite a few times that Mac's are better computers for doing things such as editing. I've had a little go at editing on a Mac and it was weird, but it's hardly surprising as all I use are PCs.

Of course, splashing out on a Mac edit suite could become a bit pricey, although it depends on your money situation, a few thow and you should be set up...

[LouCipherr]

Well, I know Dj is using Sony Vegas and a PC for editing Deadlands, but he'd ave to give you the rest of the details. ;)

I've used Vegas myself for editing. I mostly just mess around with it for my own fun and knowledge, but I've produced a few little shorts with it and I think Vegas is one of the easiest editors for the PC out of all the ones i've used.

Not sure about the Mac and it's capabilities - never used one for editing before.

[LoSTBoY]

Although I hate the Mac, it is good for multimedia editing.

Then again, you can get the same software or the equivalent for the PC. :|

[tkane18]

I've been using Vegas on a PC for quite some time now.
I tried all the demos and Vegas was the easiest one to use without reading the directions. All the other demos left me looking at the screen asking myself what do I need to do next.
I not bad mouthing the other products out there. I'm sure it's a matter of personal preference.
You can't go wrong with trying a demo - They're free! :D

[DjfunkmasterG]

VEGAS is the absolute best when it comes to PC based editing. I tried AVID, Pinnacle, and one other and they all sucked. I found Vegas to be the most simple of all PC based NLE systems.

[MinionZombie]

How is Vegas for editing options? Are there lots of toys to play with, in comparison to say, Pinnacle? I'm a cheap bastard (and yet I still don't have any money at the moment), so I'm trying to download it for free, ha, but alas no luck as yet (for the love of atheism don't people go posting links to torrents, you cheeky porch monkies ... PM me them instead! HA! :p)

[Dawg]

I lost a year of editing on a Mac a couple of years ago when I tried to upgrade iMovie, it corrupted my timeline.

So I went out and bought a Sony Viao and got Adobe Premiere Pro. It works great part of the time, but likes to crash more often than not.

Who makes Vegas? Sony?

:dead: Dawg

[MinionZombie]

Aye, Vegas is a Sony product (well, they at least jizz their name all over it anyway...), damn, a whole year of stuff?! :eek: I think I'd have jumped off something if that happened to me, I know I get into a major tizzy over a simple software crash-to-desktop without losing anything but a couple of moves, so ... damn, that sucks dude...it's things like that that make me paranoid so I keep backing stuff up constantly...

From a lot of experience of hearing people talk about Premier, I've heard a lot of people talk about stability issues and I myself have run into a couple of problems with it, which have stopped me from bothering to continue trying to figure it out, hence why I've stuck with dumb old Pinnacle Studio 8 (and Studio 9 for when I wanna add in the odd video effect I don't have in Studio 8). It's like living with a high maintenance lady, if you rub her the right way and know how to treat her good then she works fine for you, but forget one thing or try to rush her with a couple of things and a little bit of complexity and she's stomping all over your balls (virtual or otherwise) with gay abandon...

[MikePizzoff]

I, too, use Vegas on my current computer. I think it's the best editing program, aside from Adobe Premier Pro.

I have Premier Pro on my other computer, but it needs a new motherboard before I can use it again... and I'm lazy... so I'll be using Vegas for a while. I have a 60-day trial version of it and every time the trial ends, I just remove the program then re-install it for another 60 days.

I think Pinnacle is the biggest piece of crap. I used it for a couple years until I finally used Premier Pro... then I kicked myself in the ass for making everything so difficult by using Pinnacle for so long.

Anyway, back to the main question... MAC or PC?

[PJoseph]

Well, I would say whatever works for you is the best.

I use a Mac, but I've been raised on Apple architecture, so I'm very familiar with it. Also, in the professional world, for the offline editing, it's all Mac. We do use PC's for the online, when we prep for broadcast. (Of course, we don't always use NLE for online, but I prefer it).

While I work on AVID for most TV shows, at home I don't need all that hardware, so I crank out promos, DVD's and whatever other little projects on FCP on my laptop. I've actually edited tons of broadcast material on my little 12'' laptop with FCP loaded. For my world, it's easy to roll up in an office, pop open my laptop, digitize the material and then I can start cutting.

But once again, it's what your comfortable with and what your workflow is. The PC software, and even the easier prosumer stuff is great. What really matters is wheter or not you can tell a story. All the buttons in the world can't save poor and sloppy storytelling.

And dems my comments.

pJ

[placebo]

Although comfort does count for something, going with the easiest solution does not.

If you want professional results, then use professional equipment.

Dawg, iMovie is not a real NLE editor.
Although much better than Windows Movie Maker, it's the same concept.
It's made for people to edit home movies! Just to throw in some quick wipes between clips and such.
It's not for printing finished video.

I don't know about Sony Vegas, I've heard it's alright, but always by casual users using it in a non-production environment. Which seems to be where it's market is, and by reading this it seems to fill that market well. Seeing as to how people are saying they prefer it to Adobe Premiere, Avid, etc..
But it makes me wonder what POV they speak from, an experienced or even trained editor, or just an individual with no real industry base of any kind wanting something easy to learn to flesh out some general ideas (which is what I would assume).
I can't see it being truly superior to Premiere or Avid in an industry standard way.
It's probably just easier to learn for the casual user.
Cause I've updated software before and had corrupted project files, switching software at that point causes alot more problems than a corrupted project file.
If it was just the projects timeline that was corrupt, presumably you had all the media contained within it? So at this point learning a completely different software package, on a completely different architecture no less, seemed like a wise decision? A year into production!!!?????
WHAT??????

I believe the original timeline to be the initial storyboard. You did have your idea storyboarded, right?
The storyboard is the base, everything else is built from the storyboard. Changes made, should also be reflected in the storyboard before comitted to such an advanced stage as the timeline in your editors project file.

Storyboarding can be done traditionally, with natural media like pencil and paper, or you can get software.
However, I like using out of the box 3D software, since you can set up your cameras to mimick a real camera and then your angles are dynamic, more like a real camera.
It's also much easier to plan the way you're gonna do your blocking, it allows you to actually create a moving camera rig, and plan your lighting out somewhat.
It will also give others an idea of what you (the director) have in mind visually.
Of course, as with anything worth doing, there's a learning curve to using this software.
All depends on how familiar you are with real concepts.

[DjfunkmasterG]

Vegas has tons of toys, including a Chromakeyer... which i heard is one of the best Keyers already built into an NLE editor. (I never used it). It also has tons of color correction tools, as well as Contrast Brightness and film effect, Not too mention tons of transitions, and wipes. It lacks a little in the title department, but everything else makes up for it.

The biggest con I have with it is there is no setting for Anamorphic 2.35:1 you have to build you own setting. Which isn't hard you can make your own aspect ratios and it has an easy to use frame positioning tool.

You can also get Magic Bullet(which is a film look plug-in for Vegas and works really well.) Not too mention if you use Sony Cinescore or Sony Acid you can easily export audio into these programs, edit it and import back in all without closing Vegas.

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D out 10. It loses one :D because of no preset for 2.35:1

[PJoseph]

Placebo,

I agree with some of what you are saying, but I do have some thoughts.

IMovie HD can be used to edit a full length feature. Depending on the results you want, you can get a decent product with several brands of software. So, in saying it's not a "real" NLE would be up to the user. I've used iMovie to crank out quick demo jobs (for all the networks I've produced for) because it's compression interface is really simple when I need to send out a dozen .MP4's on both coasts at a moment's notice.

For someone who has access to that gear, there is no reason to make them feel that they can't achieve telling a story by making them think they need to have the most professional equipment. And you made a comment about iMovie only having straight cuts and a few dissolves. Well, the software is actually slightly more robust than that, however straight cuts and dissolves can be used to make a movie. All the fancy 3D box stuff is great, but not neccessary.

Now, if someone wants to get a job editing professionally, then I would agree that its time to move up to broadcast NLE gear. And that gear is certainly ubiquitous in my world and I wouldn't hire editors who aren't AVID editors (although I never meet any who aren't). And I would agree that AVID or FCP are better than any prosumer gear for MY needs.

So, I think there a lot of factors that should be thought out. The bottom line for me is that storytelling has nothing to do with the gear you own. I know a lot of guys who are literally pushing buttons and that's all.

pJ

[placebo]

PJoseph, I do have to agree with you here.

I reacted to a situation where it seemed as if someone was saying that Apple sucks because someone had a corrupt project file after upgrading iMovie, and buying a consumer grade notebook with Sony Vegas solved everything.

It's not an accurate representation of the situation.
I mean think about it, would someone decide to buy a brand new computer based solely on that alone? No.
That Mac was probably old, and the owner was probably thinking of getting a new computer anyway, and the corrupt file was the catalyst of that decision.
Details like that are very important when someone is trying to make an informed decision.

I never meant that iMovie or Vegas were literally not "real NLE's", because they do edit video in a non-linear fashion.
I was basically trying to say that if someone wants their ideas to go further than for 'fun', or if someone might possibly want to explore editing in more than a hobbyist capacity, that something more industry standard might be worth looking into.
In the case of Final Cut, you can get an iMac and FCExpress. And if you did take it further, your experience with the Apple platform and Final Cut would payoff if you graduated into a professional capacity using FCPro on an Apple workstation.
The same is true for AVID.
And these things I can say out of experience.
However, I can't say that using iMovie or Windows Movie Maker could help much if you decided you wanted to take it further. Because apps like that use very sub-standard methods in favor of what I consider "over-simplifying" the whole process.
And it can be argued that these over-simplified methods could actually put someone at a disadvantage if they decided they wanted to go pro.
Especially if someone purchased a computer with sub-standard hardware, then decided they wanted professional software installed.

I sure never meant to "make them feel that they can't achieve telling a story by making them think they need to have the most professional equipment".
Because nobody who's serious would accept defeat so easily.

I used to use an old PC with Pinnacle, then with Premiere. I had a serious case of hardware envy. My current setup isn't the "most professional equipment", even if it WAS, it wouldn't be tomorrow.
The story is ALWAYS the most important thing, the tools are just tools.
My logic was just that by even considering taking a story to the level of any sort of finished video, the intent is more than just to show your buddies.
So somewhere in the mix there, you're thinking about having this idea produced and presented in some fashion.
So with that in mind, if the person is truly serious, it might be a good investment to get hardware capable of at least running the express version of an industry standard editor.
And well worth the investment needed to learn that software, along with traditional editing and film making concepts.
Otherwise, why not just write a short story or play/screenplay and save yourself the headache?
What's the point of going through the trouble of mustering all the resources required to make even the crudest of films, if you're not the least bit serious about the endeavor?

It seems (at least somewhat) that part of this discussion above about editors and platforms has alot to do with the price and complexity of the software, and the comittment required to get through the learning curve.
Which IMO, says alot about how serious the person is about the whole thing.


"All art is technology. And the artist is constantly bumping up against that technology"------George Lucas




I didn't mean to belittle anyone or make anyone feel they need the best stuff to do anything at all, I just wanted to interject some information into a discussion that was filled with very short questions and answers for what I consider to be a pretty important inquiry.
Sorry to all whoev' been offended or belittled.:o

Just as a side note:
Current Macs use Intel CPU's, and Apple has an app called Boot Camp, that allows you to dual boot WindowsXP.
So it's possible to use all your PC apps on Mac hardware (but why would you want to).

I have a G5, which runs on PowerPC CPU's, but I have a little app called VirtualPC which allows me to run an installation of Windows in a virtual machine directly from my OSX desktop.
Also allows me to run Slackware Linux or any of 10 or so other OS' right from my desktop.
So switching to Apple doesn't mean you leave the Windows world behind, it means you get the best of BOTH worlds.

Another way that Apple blows windows away, is that MacOS X has a few subsystems within it, called Coreimage, corevideo, coreaudio, and coreanimation.
Check it out for yourself---http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/coreimage/

Try this--Final Cut Studio (http://www.apple.com/finalcutstudio/)
Shake (http://www.apple.com/shake/)

There's also the whole integrated color management.
In Windows, color management is done only by applications that support ICM, mainly Adobe products.
With Apple, the color management is system wide because MacOS X is a multimedia OS built that way from the ground up.
Ever wonder why when you see computers in movies they're most always Apple?
Because Apple computers are most always used to do the editing.
For most directors, there is no other choice.
Apple has all sorts of big names behind them.
Rob Zombie
Steven Speilberg
Kevin Smith
and on and on....

I bet if Romero was on that list everyone here would switch!

[PJoseph]

Placebo,

i never thought you were belittling anyone, just showing that coughing up the cash for the big gear (even though it's cheaper now than ever) or needing all the funciontality isn't always an option for everyone.

And I too would tell everyone to get on a Mac and load it up with Final Cut. For workflow, it's the only thing I could ever use. I pretty much use my system every day for something industry related. I use the iLife suite for all sorts of things as well, and they flow beautifully with FCP. And, I'm also only using a 12'' powerbook - I don't even need the full setup (but there is a slight cheat in that because on my shows, we always have fullly optimized AVIDs on a fiber op, BUT like I said before I have edited pacakges, promos, and shorts for air on this little sucker and they worked out great!)

Out here, it is all Mac for the offline.

pJ

[BUTCHYPIE]

Well, I'm in Edit Suites almost every day of my working life. I work on high-end boxes like Discreet's Flame and Avid DS, as well as Mac-based solutions like After Effects/Final Cut. Sometimes in the field, we cut on Mac laptops. Here's my take on things:

1 - if you can afford it, Mac with Final Cut Pro is hands-on the best solution. Add Motion to the mix and you'll be able to do a lot of really cool things in just a few days. Learn After Effects, and you'll be able to do just about anything editorial. More and more post houses are turning over the higher-end boxes for Mac-based solutions. Learn these now, and you won't go wrong.

I use both PC & Mac in my everyday and professional life, so I can say without predjudice that the current hardware and OS for Mac rocks.

2 - if you need to stay on a PC, Adobe Premiere -- IN THE LATEST VERSION ONLY -- is functional enough and stable enough for home and student users (wedding video cutters, etc). Adobe really wants an editorial product in their catalog, so they've been improving Premiere. However, it's still not Final Cut Pro. You can definately get by with it, but if you don't have to, get FCP.

3 - if you have to stay on PC, happen to have an Intel-based PC, research the idea of running OSX on your PC. An editor buddy of mine decided to play with running FCP on a spare PC intel machine of his, and he had it up and running FCP -- very robustely, he said -- within an hour. Of course, I would recommend you use a spare drive for this (not sure dual booting is even possible in this scenerio from one drive). Anyway, he's working on a dual-processor G5 here at work and says his hacked Intel PC box running OSX does almost as good a job. (Although I'm geek-girl, I won't give you advice on how to do this, since I'm not THAT geeky -- Google is your friend).

I use a MacBook Pro with 2GB of ram and an external Firewire 800 drive for my digitize, and I can edit as well as on any of the Avid systems in-house. Not to mention, you can run Pro-Tools for audio, if you're looking to learn that as well.

Hope that helps!

If you're cutting anything zom related, please share with the group!


-

[PJoseph]

I think every working editor on this board is going to suggest Mac based systems. Sadly, we live in a PC world, so many PC users haven't experienced them or just don't like them. I get it too, I hate PCs and I had to buy one for an online project I produced and I couldn't believe I was shelling out money for a PC. I was born and raised on Apple computers (I wrote grade school papers on a Mac SE), so without question Mac is my choice just for daily use.

And then once I got into the industry, it worked out that Mac happened to be the professional system used for editing. Interesting comment about your friend running FCP on an Intel PC. I suppose it should work fine since it's designed for the new Mac architecture.

I hope all this advice is helping everyone!

pJ

[MikePizzoff]

I think most people on this board can't afford to shell out $700+ for a new Mac then to turn around and spend another $1,300 on Final Cut.

[PJoseph]

Mike,

I agree with you and I explained that exact thought in all of my previous posts.

My feeling is that if you are working with what you have, and that is a PC, then you should get what works for you and within your budget. No one should feel that in order to edit they have to own the top of the line gear. You can make great stuff with simple gear. I'm a firm believer in that.

Just learn to tell a story and make it interesting. That's more important than the buttons you press.

pJ

Also,

If you are thinking of a Mac, there are low prices to be found. They refurbish them, have decent student discounts and also sell a stripped down version of Final Cut for about $300. So, when you start to budget out systems, look at all the options. You don't need the big dual G5 with two 17'' cinema screens to edit.

You could do a Mac Mini for $800 (I can't see what the student discount is, but it's usually about $50-$100 less). Macmini is pretty solid as far as hardware - 80 gig drive and fast dual layer DVD burner! If you have a monitor and keyboard from an old system, you can start editing right out of the box. The computer is loaded with iLife, so you could edit in iMovie HD, write the score in Garage Band (license is paid for) and burn in iDVD which works well. That already is as good (in my opinion) better than any of the prosumer editing software on the market for PCs.

Add $299 for FC Express and you've got a powerful system.

So, there are options in the Mac world if you want to make the jump.

pJ

[placebo]

Another thing that should be pointed out is the advantages of OSX itself.
Many PC users think of Apple in terms of different hardware.
However, that's only a small part of it.
OSX is known as the "most advanced operating system on the planet" for very good reason. Because it is!

Not only is Apple hardware better (especially on pro systems), but OSX has so many workflow advancements over XP that you begin to think of XP as a toy.
As I've mentioned, there's color management.
But there's also a little app called automator.
Which gives you an interface to connect actions with.
Each action has many options, such as file input/outputs, actions allow you to completely automate most operations within the OS.
For instance, you can set an action to pull all the files out of a folder, apply a photo filter such as say solarize, convert all files to a different format, dump the output files into a different folder, delete the original files AND folder, then open each file in a particular application.
You can use automator to change attributes of thousands of files at one time, then dump all files into a network drive and delete the local copies of those files.
And it isn't hard to do, each action has inputs and outputs, so inside the automator app, you drag actions around connecting them to each other, then once you have them how you want, you just click 'run' and the whole thing goes down in front of your face (if you choose to view actions as they're run) or else you can choose not to and it happens behind the scenes.

My point is that the reason the Mac is such an able system for editing and multimedia is that's the market the Mac has existed in for years, and the demographic it's targeted at. So Apple has developed features in relation to content creation.
The entire system just screams 'visual workstation'.
And it won't be until Windows Vista that MS comes even remotely close to anything the Mac has to offer.
And that's because Vista is a direct rip off of OSX.