Thoughts on Big Daddy and Learning

[Philly_SWAT]

A lot of people point to Big Daddy being so smart (at least in zombie terms) as evidence that zombies were "evolving" into something smarter than they previously were. This is also used to say how the zombies in Land were much smarter and/or evolved than the ones in Day. Yet with us human beings, there has been the rare occasion where one of us is head and shoulders above the rest in terms of intelligence, for example, Albert Einstein or Stephen Hawking. No one points to their intelligence as a sign that the rest of us are evolving, and seeing as zombies are basically human ("they're us") why would Big Daddy's apparent superiority over the over Zed's give any indication as to the masses of zombies evolving?

[creepntom]

i concluded it was part evolution, part memory, based on what's been mentioned in the other films

hence why when the bell rang, he came out to try to pump someone's gas, its what he remembered doing

wonder if he remembers how to change someone's oil? :p

[Brubaker]

A lot of people point to Big Daddy being so smart (at least in zombie terms) as evidence that zombies were "evolving" into something smarter than they previously were. This is also used to say how the zombies in Land were much smarter and/or evolved than the ones in Day. Yet with us human beings, there has been the rare occasion where one of us is head and shoulders above the rest in terms of intelligence, for example, Albert Einstein or Stephen Hawking. No one points to their intelligence as a sign that the rest of us are evolving, and seeing as zombies are basically human ("they're us") why would Big Daddy's apparent superiority over the over Zed's give any indication as to the masses of zombies evolving?

Not all of those zombies were evolving. You're right about that. Without Big Daddy, they'd probably still be in the small town that was raided early in the film. The story would have been a whole lot different without his ability to "think."

[Cody]

in my personal OPINION, a corpse cannot learn or "evolve" just so much science that says it cant happen. but I believe they can retain some memories.

bub didnt evolve he was trained and probably suffered less decay in the brain

[Maitreya]

in my personal OPINION, a corpse cannot learn or "evolve" just so much science that says it cant happen. but I believe they can retain some memories.


So much science also says that a corpse cannot get back up and feast on warm flesh. :D

But anyways, it's not that all the zombies were evolving, it's that Big Daddy taught them, in the same way that Albert Einstein taught us the theory of relativity. Same concept, it's always that great mind that pushes people further. In this case it was a gas station attendant.

[Philly_SWAT]

So much science also says that a corpse cannot get back up and feast on warm flesh. :D

But anyways, it's not that all the zombies were evolving, it's that Big Daddy taught them, in the same way that Albert Einstein taught us the theory of relativity. Same concept, it's always that great mind that pushes people further. In this case it was a gas station attendant.

Exactly. This helps show my point that the zombies in Land were not any more evolved than the ones in Day.

[Maitreya]

Exactly. This helps show my point that the zombies in Land were not any more evolved than the ones in Day.

I wouldn't exactly call what they do evolution.... It's more like schooling to me. Either that or simply remembering.

Bub learned from humans, therefore nearly destroying his homocidal tendencies completely (minus Rhodes, but that's an obvious exception).

Big Daddy learned/remembered on his own in the wild, so he still had homocidal tendencies and acted on them.

Evolution in my mind would be more like... If they started flying.

[zombiegirl]

To me it wasn't learning at all. These were all things they did while alive.
( Like the butcher using his cleaver ) It was more reminding them of what they know. Kinda like riding a bike.

[Maitreya]

To me it wasn't learning at all. These were all things they did while alive.
( Like the butcher using his cleaver ) It was more reminding them of what they know. Kinda like riding a bike.

Good point... Kinda like Blades also being a badass.

[Monrozombi]

I dont' think its as much learning as it is memory. Big Daddy knew how to pump gas and probably fire a gun while he was alive, and he had done it so many times that all it was was repitition. He recognized that the gun was a weapon and what it was used for. I just happened to watch the original NOTLD last week and when i saw the cemetery zombie can't get into the car to get Barbara, so what does he do? he looks and finds a brick and he was animated what a few hours? So is that really inteligence or just association of a brick being able to break glass and a gun being able to kill someone?

[Angry312]

In Night, there was the rock/window bit, but also the trowel/mother interface. The child was dead for a few *minutes* before she played quick game of "stick a gardening implement into a parent's torso". So, they've got tool-use down, apparently.

In Dawn (original), the scene where Roger and Peter are sealing off the department store the first time, and the zombie who gets his mitts on Roger's rifle and doesn't let go, that shows either curiousity or possessiveness. As in, "Well, you stick that rifle in my face, son, and I'm just gonna take it from you." In either case, we have a second indicator of their returning powers of thought and reason.

Day shows us that Bub, whilst not a genius, can be trained and expect reward for his behaviors. When he sees Doc Frankenstein in the freezer and has an episode, that speaks of their capacity to feel grief or rage. You can't teach an emotional context, outside of some serious surgery or intense drugs.


And, in Land, we've got all three, rolled into one movie, plus some extras: beyond the pragmatism of the approach via the water, it showed the conquering of a natural barrier, specifically the river. It shows their determination and resolve, speaking of their conviction to eat and spawn.

So, we've got:
Tool use.
Curiousity or possessiveness.
Capacity to feel grief or rage.
Determination and resolve.
Conviction to conquer fear in order to feed and propogate.

Make of that what you will, but to me, they don't stop thinking, just lose about half their IQ, not their emotional concepts. They move in packs out, in my opinion, out of a sense of community and belonging. If they were after simply just more food, the solitary hunter approach might work, but when it comes down to it ... they sure do like to hang out and ... well, I guess go grab something to eat, but that might be construed in very bad taste.

Just my thoughts.
:evil: Angry312; "... dude. That's like five cannibalism jokes. You're sick." :evil:

[TheWalkingDude]

Also there was mention in NOTLD of a zombie driving a car in one of the news reports.

[Angry312]

Also there was mention in NOTLD of a zombie driving a car in one of the news reports.

It was actually a quote from Day of the Dead.
Here it is:
"What's he trying to prove? I once saw one of those things sitting behind the wheel of a car in D.C. trying to drive down Independence Avenue. It didn't make me want to be its friend." -- Ted Fisher

:evil: Angry312; "This is one big, long 16-mile wide tombstone!" :evil:

[Svengoolie]

So, we've got:
Tool use.
Curiousity or possessiveness.
Capacity to feel grief or rage.
Determination and resolve.
Conviction to conquer fear in order to feed and propogate.


So much for "pure, motorized instinct", huh Angry?:D

[Angry312]

The only response I'd have for the scientist from Dawn would be a direct quote from "True Grit":
"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man."

:evil: Angry312; "... True Grit rocks my socks." :evil:

[TheWalkingDude]

Ok had the two mixed up I'm old im having brain farts ok lol

[deadpunk]

To me it wasn't learning at all. These were all things they did while alive.
( Like the butcher using his cleaver ) It was more reminding them of what they know. Kinda like riding a bike.

I really doubt that. There is a scene as they invade the city where Big Daddy hands over a confiscated rifle to a female zombie. She sure didn't look like she had any experience with military weaponry, yet she got off a few good shots :lol:


Evolution in my mind would be more like... If they started flying.

The ability to walk upright is considered evolution. By these standards, you are saying that man has never evolved, just...got better posture.


Also there was mention in NOTLD of a zombie driving a car in one of the news reports.

I think we can safely assume that this was someone that died behind the wheel, and didn't have the brain power to stop the car and get out.

The bottomline is, whether you believe that the LDs were evolving/learning/being led...it was a plot device.

There is alot of trash talk of Dawn04 due to the fact that the zombies could sprint. This was also a plot device. Simple shamblers just can't compete with the current horror market, where gore and extreme horror rule. The makers of Dawn04 recognized this, so did GAR. Something had to change. The two films just changed the Living Dead in different manners.

I don't find it surprising that we are left in the dark with Big Daddy's uniqueness. Romero has never been one to give the audience 100% of the answers. He's never offered up an explaination for the Rise at all, let alone why a single zombie would act the way it does. Part of the allure of this series of movies is the fact that you, the viewer, are left wondering. It makes you think, which in turn makes you think more about the movie, which brings you back for more.

Sometimes, I think you guys look to hard for altrustic reasonings, when you should consider that it's simply a MARKETING PLOY. Romero might be a filmmaker that considers himself an artist, he might be trying to leave behind a legacy, but the studios funding him are only looking to make a buck.

[bassman]

If it's only a marketing ploy, he's been trying to use it since the original film. Each dead film has zombie intelligence. Some of them just aren't out in the open for anyone to recognize.

Dawn04 used the running zombies in a marketing ploy and I can understand why, but Romero has had his idea of zombie intelligence/memories for a very long time.

[The Alive Man]

It reminds me of the whole 'morphogenetic fields' theory elaborated by scientist Rupert Sheldrake.
If the (Living) DEAD represent a totally new "race" in terms of biology, then read this:

"There is mounting evidence that as more and more people learn or do something it becomes easier for others to learn or do it. In one experiment, British biologist Rupert Sheldrake took three short, similar Japanese rhymes -- one a meaningless jumble of disconnected Japanese words, the second a newly-composed verse and the third a traditional rhyme known by millions of Japanese. Neither Sheldrake nor the English schoolchildren he got to memorize these verses knew which was which, nor did they know any Japanese. The most easily-learned rhyme turned out to be the one well-known to Japanese. This and other experiments led Sheldrake to postulate that there is a field of habitual patterns that links all people, which influences and is influenced by the habits of all people. This field contains (among other things) the pattern of that Japanese rhyme. The more people have a habit pattern -- whether of knowledge, perception or behavior -- the stronger it is in the field, and the more easily it replicates in a new person. In fact, it seems such fields exist for other entities too -- for birds, plants, even crystals. Sheldrake named these phenomena morphogenetic fields -- fields which influence the pattern or form of things."

Or:

"Sheldrake's brilliant contribution was to take what have been fairly loose ideas about morphogenetic fields and formulate them into a testable theory. Briefly, the theory goes as follows: Morphogenetic fields carry information only (no energy) and are available throughout time and space without any loss of intensity after they have been created. They are created by the patterns of physical forms (including such things as crystals as well as biological systems). They help guide the formation of later similar systems. And finally, a newly forming system "tunes into" a previous system by having within it a "seed" that resonates with a similar seed in the earlier form.

Thus, from this perspective, the DNA in the genes of a living system (like an oak tree) does not carry all the information needed to shape that system, but it can act as a "tuning seed" that tunes in the morphogenetic fields of previous systems of the same type. Morphogenetic fields are thus the repository of what might be described as genetic habits."

So basically, WHATEVER was "re-animating" corpses (virus?) had made them "sensitive" to some sort of "Morphogenetic Field" which interconnets all the DEAD, as a net. They are unconsciously LINKED from the beginning. Thus, DEAD D.N.A. can tap "cultural" infos into this brand-new morphic field.

Bottom line: some ZOMBIES can almost "evolve" in comparison with others.

[darth los]

So much science also says that a corpse cannot get back up and feast on warm flesh. :D

But anyways, it's not that all the zombies were evolving, it's that Big Daddy taught them, in the same way that Albert Einstein taught us the theory of relativity. Same concept, it's always that great mind that pushes people further. In this case it was a gas station attendant.

That's definitely a solid point. It was him who stood head and shoulders above the rest of them. With out him they'd still be lost. But that still doesn't explain why the rest of the zombies just weren't interested in eating people anymore. It was like they could take it or leave it.

[MissJacksonCA]

I think the idea of zombie evolution isn't based on them all becoming geniouses so much as they've acquired the ability to mimic each other... a basic character of human intelligence... you see it in children... when they're wee babes they'll begin to mimic each others behavior... and i dont mean where one crawls they all begin to crawl... i mean like if one hits... another observes... he'll hit too... its like learning a cuss word for the first time and saying it... hell my cat even mimics my behavior...

so I spose its not them getting smarter so much as them becoming more similar...

and I suppose then going on to hack their way through the fence perhaps that was simple problem solving another feature of basic human evolution... and when one began... others mimic