" Police" at the dock?

[darth los]

After watching Dawn 78' extended version again last night a thought crept up on me. It seems the scene with the Joe Pilato led "police" is ambiguous and can be interpreted in atleast one different way. If taken at face value one could say that they were just "police" who were running just as the protaganists of the film were. However if you look a little a little deeper there might be something more sinister going on. My theory is that Pilato and company could be a bunch of thugs who were in the midst of stealing the uniforms,guns, equiptment and supplies we saw them with when Fran and stephen stumbled upon the scene.

Ok, first off, there has been much speculation on how the dead bodies at the police dock came to be that way, especialy the dead cop who was siting by the radio. The first body they come across is a man wearing a jacket, blue jeans and boots. I'm thinking this was one of pilato's crew who was killed in the raid of the dock. the officer by the radio was crept up on and shot in the head. I think if Pilato and co. were really cops they would not have killed their fellow officer if he was not okay with what was going on. I mean, After roger asked peter if he wanted to run I don't think he would have killed him if he would have said no. I think he would have said " ok dude, suit yourself."

Second When they ambush stephen and fran it's almost like they heard the chopper and decided to hide out being as how they all seem to pop out of the woodwork. Surely if they were police they had a perfect right to be there. The wide eyed thug pops out of the back of the truck and says "Just stay cool". Not freeze or show me some i.d.or even what are you doing here. Seems a rather poor choice of words for law enforcement. furtherore, Two of Pilato's men call him skipper. That's a name more appropriate for a sea captain not a cop. When stephen tries to explain why they are there and about the dead bodies Pilato totally blows him off and says "Steve Andrews!" He's Not even interested in what he had to say.


When they realize that it's a squad car rolling up Pilato looks to his men and says "It's ok we're "police", as if to say,there not gonna mess with us if they think we're cops so calm down. He adds, "Your running anrdews ,eh?". The look that stephen gives him is totally priceless, like he knows this is all bull s hite. Pilato picks up on this, that stephen has put 2 and 2 together and that they might be busted. When roger questions him about what the problem is he says " we caught your friends here stealing company gasoline." He makes no mention of the dead bodies , as if consciously not trying to bring it up, or else he might have alot of explaining to do. If they were really cops, which do you think that they would be more concerned about, some stolen gas or a couple of dead fellow officers? He also adds "now it would be crazy to start shooting at one another wouldn't it?" a very curiously nervous thing to say. And when they feel that the ruse is working Pilato taps stephen on the stomach as if to say " i know you know, just be cool and there won't be a shoot out. His subordinate that is next to him seems really nervous and also fails to make eye contact like he is hiding something and can't wait to get out of there. It seems that roger picks up on this as well, with the smile he is wearing during the exchange.

When they make their way to the boat Pilato says, "good luck swat" again a very formal term to use when addressing you're bretheren. Later on in the film When peter and roger hear stephen shooting , peter yells " what the hell was that?" Roger replies " I don't know , Fuzz maybee?" He calls the police fuzz, not swat or police. Very odd.

Like i said , these are just theories. After you've read what i said go back and watch the scene. What i typed is only half the story. You have to look at the body language and expressions especially during the part where everyone has their guns drawn. It looked like a very tense situation. What do you guys think?

[Eyebiter]

Agree with the theory the cops at the dock weren't legitimate.

[Phildogger]

for years, All I had was the theatrical cut. I thought for 10 years that flyboy had killed that cop.

[Griff]

for years, All I had was the theatrical cut. I thought for 10 years that flyboy had killed that cop.

Not an entirely uncommon misperception. I've never understood it myself since there's nothing to suggest Stephen did anything but find the body. He even radios in "operator dead, post abandoned", which would be kinda foolish if you were the culprit. But, like I said, you're not alone with your assumption.

[Philly_SWAT]

All right darth los! This is the kind of post that I like, long and talking about a theory. I have considered this question before just like you. I think that everything you said is logical and makes perfect sense. I am not sure in my mind if Pilato and company were indeed cops, or just some thugs that donned cop uniforms they found at the dock. Since you have done such a good job stating the case for them being thugs, I will give my thought on why they might have very well been cops, and see what the rest of the posts in this thread bring as far as what everyone else thinks.

I think that with the chaos that was reigning in Philly at the time, that anyone could have killed the guy in the jacket and the cop before any of the characters in the scene arrived at the dock. That is one piece of backstory that we will never know, just like how did two zombie kids end up in that airport closet. As organized socity fell further and further into a state of collapse, Pilato and his crew could have been city cops who figured they would go to the docks, see if there were any suppplies there, and "borrow" a boat to get offshore to survive. When they arrived, they saw two dead bodies, one a cop. If Pilato and his men had similiar experiences in the last three weeks as Roger and Peter, they may have been somewhat immune to seeing a dead body or two laying around. There was nothing they could do to help their fallen officer, and went about their business of preparing to take a boat and leave. When they heard the chopper landing, they decided to hide, not knowing exactly who was landing or why. Was it some other cops, who may still be functioning within the framework of "normal society", who would frown upon their actions of stealing supplies and a boat? Or could it be cops, or civilians, who were looking to do the same same as Pilato and may just shoot first and ask questions later. It would be a prudent thing to do to stay hidden and see who was in the chopper and what their intentions were. If they were cold-blooded enough to shoot a fellow cop who was still sitting at the radio station, why hesitate to kill Fran and Flyboy?

As far as their choice of words and their "right to be there", well, a shopowner would have all the right in the world to be in his own shop, but if he saw some people coming up to his shop in the midst of the zombie chaos, who knows what he would do? He may decide to act however he thinks it benefits him to survive. If he were to say "I own this shop, get out", he may just be killed for his efforts. If he were to take the tack that he was just there "looking for supplies", he may be seen to be a fellow survivor, and not killed. This can account for Pilato and crew's odd behavior. By saying "just stay cool" instead of "freeze police", they may have considered themselves "thieves and bad guys" by this point, and did not have any more thoughts of conformity to authority existing anymore, so did not put up the pretense.

When Flyboy starts talking about the bodies, Pilato and crew may have been so hardened by blasting their way into tenement buildings, blowing away countless zombies, many who may have been people they used to know, and were totally immune to thinking or caring about things like this at that point. Sure, there were a couple of dead bodies around there, but they would have seen countless dead bodies in the last three weeks. So he just ignores that comment, and shows Flyboy that he recognizes him as a TV guy, not a tough guy.


When Roger and Peter roll up, and he says "its Ok we're police" he may have said that with a sense of irony, that back in the "normal days" they were in fact police, although right this second, they were acting very un-policelike. Again, for all they knew, Roger and Peter may have been there to do the same thing they were (which in fact they were, in essense stealing a WGON chopper, and police gasoline, to escape the city) or were there to "arrest" Pilato for stealing. Either way, a shootout was possible, so Pilato and his men tried to play it cool until they discovered the intentions of the inhabitents of the squad car.

As far as calling Pilato "skipper", again, we dont know any backstory to that. As cop buddies before the outbreak, Pilato could have owned a boat and the guys went out on it with him, hence a nickname of "skipper". Or since he was in charge of their group, they may have just started calling him skipper since they were stealing a boat. As far as Pilato saying "good luck SWAT" I dont think that is odd at all. As regular uniform officers, it would be normal to refer to SWAT guys as SWAT guys. More respectful that Roger later saying "fuzz maybe", as fuzz is a slang word for cops. That seems more odd to me, as it would be even more weird if Roger had said "I dont know, the pigs maybe?"

In any event, both explanation seem plausible to me.

[MaximusIncredulous]

Now who wants to handle the theory of how "skipper" snuck his way into the Army and became Capt. Rhodes :D.

[jim102016]

Great theory....I never really understood that part of the movie until the extended version came out. I don't think they're cops, maybe Longshoremen, shipbuilders, or perhaps crews from the many ships going and coming from Philadelphia's commercial port. I grew up outside of Philadelphia, and I remember what a huge impact the former Philadelphia Naval Yard had on the area. Those guys could have easily been former Navy...god knows what was going on there at any period during the Cold War, it was a big place. Last time I flew home, I drove back from the airport along side dozens of mothballed aircraft carriers and different types of ships.

[hadrian0117]

Now who wants to handle the theory of how "skipper" snuck his way into the Army and became Capt. Rhodes :D.

He made it to Florida, but decided (re)joining the Army was his best chance at safety. Due to massive causalties he was given field/brevet promotions until he became a Captain. Either that or he had a twin brother;) .

[Chakobsa]

When I first saw the extended cut I got the impression that Pilato and co. hadn't killed the radio operator or the other dead guy, I always liked to think of them as a bunch of chancers taking advantage of the deserted dock rather than a bunch of ruthless killers. I think this is borne out by their change in demeanor when they realize that Flyboy and co aren't a threat to them.

[Danny]

Now who wants to handle the theory of how "skipper" snuck his way into the Army and became Capt. Rhodes :D.

thats what id like to know:lol:

[Philly_SWAT]

Now who wants to handle the theory of how "skipper" snuck his way into the Army and became Capt. Rhodes :D.At least he didnt refer to the cigarette guy as "little buddy"......

[MaximusIncredulous]

At least he didnt refer to the cigarette guy as "little buddy"......

If he had said that, I would've prayed to the god Romero for Dawn to focus on those goofy guys instead of the boring mall heroes.

[Philly_SWAT]

If that had happened, instead of the great Goblin music, we could have heard something like this....

Just sit right back and you'll hear a tale
A tale of a zombie plague
That started at a po-lice dock
During a ransack raid
The mate was a cigarette smoking man
The "Skipper" brave and sure
Five men who were cops, or just rogue thugs
Wanted to keep their blood pure. Just keep their blood pure.

The zombies started getting rough
Their tiny craft was tossed
If not for the fact they were low on rounds
They'd blow some heads off. They'd blow some heads off.

Their ship set ground on a shore of a
well-charted Pittsburgh isle
With cigarette guy
The Skipper too
No millionaires
And no wives
No movie stars
Just the rest
Right here on zombie-free isle

[MaximusIncredulous]

:lol:

Might be an interesting idea for a spin-off TV series. The wacky antics of Cigarette Guy, "Skipper", and Cigar Guy. From time to time guest stars could mysteriously wash up on the island and disappear by the end of the show. Beats Survivor anyhoo.

[Danny]

If that had happened, instead of the great Goblin music, we could have heard something like this....

Just sit right back and you'll hear a tale
A tale of a zombie plague
That started at a po-lice dock
During a ransack raid
The mate was a cigarette smoking man
The "Skipper" brave and sure
Five men who were cops, or just rogue thugs
Wanted to keep their blood pure. Just keep their blood pure.

The zombies started getting rough
Their tiny craft was tossed
If not for the fact they were low on rounds
They'd blow some heads off. They'd blow some heads off.

Their ship set ground on a shore of a
well-charted Pittsburgh isle
With cigarette guy
The Skipper too
No millionaires
And no wives
No movie stars
Just the rest
Right here on zombie-free isle


err......yeah, indeed.:confused:

[kortick]

no they were cops on the run

in the film it is not clear

i sugest that people buy the dawn of the dead novel

it answers a lot of questions that people post here

they were cops on the run
no doubt about it according to the novel

[Philly_SWAT]

no they were cops on the run

in the film it is not clear

i sugest that people buy the dawn of the dead novel

it answers a lot of questions that people post here

they were cops on the run
no doubt about it according to the novel
Two thoughts.....

1) If there were 100% authoritative sources on all things Romero, then there would be a lot less discussion around here
2) Most novels that are made after a movie, as opposed to a movie being made from an existing novel, have to fill in a lot of blanks that were not fleshed out in the movie, and are largely the authors best guess/opinion about the details that were not in the film. The Sparrow novel is such a case. Our opinion's are just as valid as hers.

[kortick]

i am not saying your opinions
dont matter

however Romero wrote the book
not Sparrow

she helped him with it

it was completely taken from the screen play
almost word for word

i am saying if you
want something that is not clear
to you

the novel is a good resource

[Philly_SWAT]

however Romero wrote the book
not Sparrow

she helped him with it

it was completely taken from the screen play
almost word for word

Where are you getting your information? His name may be first of the book, but like many books of this type, the majority (if not all of it) is written by the "guest author", and the well-known name is just used to add legitiamacy and name recogntion to increase sales.

Here are the first two paragraphs from the book:

Sleep did not come easy for Francine Parker. It was a struggle every night to block out the events of the day and the memories of the past that kept up their pounding conflict within her head. Now, as she slept, the expression of anguish of her face belied any sweet dreams.

At twenty-three, she was slender, and very attractive. After her divorce, she had traded in her glasses for contacts, her brown hair for silver blond, and her extra twenty-five pounds of pasta, chocolate cake and domesticity for a knockout figure.

There is nothing special about the first two paragraphs, the whole book is basically the same. This was not taken "word for word" from the screenplay, and no where near Romero's writing style. Susana Sparrow used the script as the guide to create a novel based on it. She used direct quotes as dialogue between the characters, but most of the writing was basically her just creating her own interpretation to flesh out the book. Just using the screenplay would make for a very short book, hardly 210 pages of single-spaced story telling.

[kortick]

from romero himself

video watchdog issue #52 1995

article 'dawns of the dead"

pages 47-52

if you read the book like it seems you have you
realise that he does specifically say they are renegade
cops

like i said it isnt a matter of peoples opinion
the book is merely a good place to get more info from

i dont know why you are not understanding that is what i am saying

[Philly_SWAT]

I never disputed your assertion that they are renegate cops. I am disputing your assertion that the book was written by Romero with a little help from Sparrow, and that it is "word for word" from the screenplay. I understand completely what you are saying, I am saying that it is inaccurate. And to make sure that you are understanding me, I am saying that you are inaccurate as far as saying the book is "word for word" from the screenplay, not that you are inaccurate as far as Pilato and crew being renegade cops.

Also, in the book it may say that they are renegade cops, but again, the book was written by Susana Sparrow, not Romero. In the book, it also says that Fran had a pet dog out of the pet shop in the mall. Do you think that was taken from the screenplay? No, that was not in the screenplay, and not in the movie at all. It was Sparrow making up some extra stuff, cuz like I said, a book that was only word for word from the screenplay would be very short indeed.

[kortick]

i got your PM

its all good

if you read the original script
that is here on this web site you will see that george did have the dog in the original version

and of course he had to add more to the book to fill it in

there is no question about that

but the book is romeros story
not sparrows

but enough of this

i understand what you are saying
and you are right that there is more to the book
than just what is in the screen play

[Philly_SWAT]

but the book is romeros story
not sparrows
Yes, the book is Romero's story. Sparrow did not come up with the idea on her own. But she wrote the book, not Romero.

[darth los]

i think whoever wrote the book is a moot point. Let's for argument sake say that Romero did write the book and that it was his vision for the film. It still doesn't mean that everything from the book made it into the movie. There have been countless film adaptations of novels that change everything fom characters names and hair color to major events. There is no proof that what was in the book actually pertains to the film even if gar did write it. The book is not a transcript of the film. Just like there is no proof that day comes before land, Right Philly?:D

[Philly_SWAT]

Well, the book was written after the movie, as is the case with many original movies. Nothing at all from the book "made it into the movie", the movie already existed at the time the book was written. This was not an adaptation of a book into a movie, it was a book written based on the movie. As for the Land/Day discussion, that would be better addresses in a different thread. :)

[Slain]

A slight flaw in the guys at the dock were just crooks wearing police uniforms is why didn't they just shoot flyboy & kidnap Fran for sexual diversion later on?

I mean its not like they could've know they would find women were they head to.

[darth los]

Watching the scene one could draw the conclusion that something like that could have happened if peter and Roger had not shown up when they did. however, I don't think that was very likely. The Plauge had only been going on for three weeks and i doubt they were that thirsty for a woman at that point. I think their minds were more on running. i believe that to be a much more likely event if they bikers had come across fran.

[Philly_SWAT]

Watching the scene one could draw the conclusion that something like that could have happened if peter and Roger had not shown up when they did. however, I don't think that was very likely. The Plauge had only been going on for three weeks and i doubt they were that thirsty for a woman at that point. I think their minds were more on running. i believe that to be a much more likely event if they bikers had come across fran.
Good point.

[axlish]

Peter and Roger are "good cops" correct? Good in the sence that they are acting justly and wisely considering their hopeless situation? If 100 angry gangsters are chasing you and you steal a car to get away, are you guilty of theft? Peter and Roger are good men, and even they decided to bail on their duties, so we cannot assume that Pilato and company are bad guys since they appear to be merely attempting to survive.

If you remember, they were in the process of loading up the boat down at the dock which was down a pretty big flight of stairs and completely out of view from where the chopper landed. They were in the process of unloading a truck of supplies and carrying down to the dock/boat. Their sudden appearance probably has more to do with that. Pilato seemed a little interested in the helicopter as a potential means of transportation saying "How many can that thing hold". Obviously, they were up to no good and no matter who was landing, good or bad, they had to be cautious. They were prepared to defend their goods, much like Stephen and Peter were prepared to defend their mall.

About the guy shot in the head, that is a toughy. This is just a gut feeling, I have no evidence to support this, but I am guessing that there was a zombie invasion on the police dock, and it was overran. I have a feeling that the guy shot in the head was a zombie. One reason is that it was a head shot. Another reason is the extensive make up. Again, just a gut feeling. I always felt like the dead guy by the chopper was there for the purpose of letting the viewer know that they were in an unsafe zone, no longer occupied by humans.

Another thought that I had a while back that I haven't mentioned since the old forums is, when Stephen CB'ed in that the station was abandoned, that was the source of the report that Roger and Peter got when they announced to the "bad" cops that there was a report that the docks had been knocked out.

I will also note that during that scene, there was a definite sence of pseudo-comradery, once both parties realised that they were up to the same thing.

Badass topic by the way.

[Philly_SWAT]

Peter and Roger are "good cops" correct? Good in the sence that they are acting justly and wisely considering their hopeless situation? If 100 angry gangsters are chasing you and you steal a car to get away, are you guilty of theft? Peter and Roger are good men, and even they decided to bail on their duties, so we cannot assume that Pilato and company are bad guys since they appear to be merely attempting to survive.

If you remember, they were in the process of loading up the boat down at the dock which was down a pretty big flight of stairs and completely out of view from where the chopper landed. They were in the process of unloading a truck of supplies and carrying down to the dock/boat. Their sudden appearance probably has more to do with that. Pilato seemed a little interested in the helicopter as a potential means of transportation saying "How many can that thing hold". Obviously, they were up to no good and no matter who was landing, good or bad, they had to be cautious. They were prepared to defend their goods, much like Stephen and Peter were prepared to defend their mall.

About the guy shot in the head, that is a toughy. This is just a gut feeling, I have no evidence to support this, but I am guessing that there was a zombie invasion on the police dock, and it was overran. I have a feeling that the guy shot in the head was a zombie. One reason is that it was a head shot. Another reason is the extensive make up. Again, just a gut feeling. I always felt like the dead guy by the chopper was there for the purpose of letting the viewer know that they were in an unsafe zone, no longer occupied by humans.

Another thought that I had a while back that I haven't mentioned since the old forums is, when Stephen CB'ed in that the station was abandoned, that was the source of the report that Roger and Peter got when they announced to the "bad" cops that there was a report that the docks had been knocked out.

I will also note that during that scene, there was a definite sence of pseudo-comradery, once both parties realised that they were up to the same thing.

Badass topic by the way.
Excellent post dude! Have some rep! Errr.......well, have some props anyway!

[CivilDefense]

All I can say is that no cop chews gum like that.

I personally award that guy "worst gum chewing by a minor character with a speaking role"

[Andy]

When they make their way to the boat Pilato says, "good luck swat" again a very formal term to use when addressing you're bretheren. Later on in the film When peter and roger hear stephen shooting , peter yells " what the hell was that?" Roger replies " I don't know , Fuzz maybee?" He calls the police fuzz, not swat or police. Very odd.


i thought they said buzz, which i always assumed was name they gave the zombie with the gun.

what the hell was that? i dunno buzz maybe?

lol just my interpation. it makes more sense to me than "fuzz".. firstly why would they be expecting police in the mall? and secondly ive never actually heard the police referred to as "fuzz" before. seriously. :rockbrow:

[kortick]

fuzz is a slang term for the police

it is pretty common here in the us

whether or not he says fuzz i am not sure
id have to watch the video again

but fuzz is a common term for american cops

[Danny]

yeah over here too, hence "hot fuzz", that or pigs, rozzers, coppers, policemen or the chav variation "****S":lol:

[aga]

I always had them down as small time hoodlums who were taking advantage of an abandoned Police station.
As for the dead cop at the radio, he may of been bitten and knew what was coming or just lost all hope. I think he made his last contact with whoever was in charge at the time, doing his duty and then checked himself out with a bullet to the head. Although that depends on the location of the wound, I can't remember where it was, but whatever the situation I can't see a zombie sitting down in a chair.

[raym]

All I can say is that no cop chews gum like that.

I personally award that guy "worst gum chewing by a minor character with a speaking role"

LOL.

:lol:

I 2nd that.

No wait...

10th it.

[darth los]

i thought they said buzz, which i always assumed was name they gave the zombie with the gun.

what the hell was that? i dunno buzz maybe?

lol just my interpation. it makes more sense to me than "fuzz".. firstly why would they be expecting police in the mall? and secondly ive never actually heard the police referred to as "fuzz" before. seriously. :rockbrow:


I went back, rewatched the scene and it's definitely fuzz that he says. If you read his lips, his bottom lip touches his upper teeth as would someone who is making an "f" sound. Also the zombie you refer to as buzz had just taken roger's weapon which, being swat, one would think he was quite familiar with. Stephen was firing a small caliber revolver. Surely roger would know the sound of his own weapon being fired. However, I found your interpreting of the scene quite enjoyable and something i never would have thought of if you had not brought it up. The reason i posted this thread was to share my take on the dock scene that some of our members might not have thought of. Free exchange of ideas. What else are we here for if not to share interpretations/ commentaries on the movies we love? Good job dude.

[Andy]

I went back, rewatched the scene and it's definitely fuzz that he says. If you read his lips, his bottom lip touches his upper teeth as would someone who is making an "f" sound. Also the zombie you refer to as buzz had just taken roger's weapon which, being swat, one would think he was quite familiar with. Stephen was firing a small caliber revolver. Surely roger would know the sound of his own weapon being fired. However, I found your interpreting of the scene quite enjoyable and something i never would have thought of if you had not brought it up. The reason i posted this thread was to share my take on the dock scene that some of our members might not have thought of. Free exchange of ideas. What else are we here for if not to share interpretations/ commentaries on the movies we love? Good job dude.
hey thanks alot man :)

i guess it dosn't make sense that roger dosn't recognise his own weapon being fired lol.. but on the other hand, why would they be expecting the police at the mall?

[darth los]

hey thanks alot man :)

i guess it dosn't make sense that roger dosn't recognise his own weapon being fired lol.. but on the other hand, why would they be expecting the police at the mall?


I don't think it was that he was expecting police, it's just that he was answering peter's question of "what the hell is that?" That's probably the first thing that popped into his head, which is as good an explanation as any. (Kinda like when ray thought of the stay puft marshmallow man in ghostbusters.:D) I'm sure that they weren't expecting "POLICE" to be raiding the dock either but there they were. Speculating that the Police were the source of the gunshots is not a bad guess. Now if he would have said " I don't know, Bikers maybe"? Now that would have been wierd.:lol:

[capncnut]

Right, just watched this scene three times in a row and I think might I have some new light to shed. F**k knows why I didn't jump on this one sooner but anyway here's my two cents. Please bear in mind that the only two posts I could be bothered to read in detail (no offense folks) were Darth and Philly's lengthy ones on the first page, so forgive me if I'm covering stuff already raised.


The first body they come across is a man wearing a jacket, blue jeans and boots. I'm thinking this was one of pilato's crew who was killed in the raid of the dock.
Okie doke, I hate to disagree so early on Darth but I'm not so sure about that one. You are correct when it comes to identifying the fact that the body does not belong to a police officer (well at least a uniformed one) so there's no argument there. As for being a pal of Pilato's, I don't know. Look at the corpse very carefully, especially at the shot where the pump cable drags across it's back. Check out the hands. They are not fresh and have the trademark grey paint on which leads me to believe that the body has been laying there for quite some time, possibly a day or two. Flyboy certainly doesn't seem too bothered by it when he steps over it.


The officer by the radio was crept up on and shot in the head.
Even though I have a gut feeling that Pilato's crew were responsible for the radio operator's death, this might not actually be the case. Okay, let's break it down like this.

For:
The radio voice is desparately calling out for the dead operator, like he may have been speaking to him earlier.
Red coloured mark to the forehead.
Against:
The wound is on the face of the operator and there are no visible signs of an entrance wound to the back of the head.
More grey make up which indicates that he might have been dead for a while.
The face is all tattered and ripped open, with a black nose. Possible bludgeoning?
No blood on the desk in front of the operator, was he placed there?
It's definitely a tricky one but even though the odds are stacked against, I think Pilato's mob definately killed him. They probably just attacked him in his chair (possibly after a failed sneak attack) and he might've tried to call for help because the radio voice says something like "No, I'm not getting him at all". On a completely unrelated note, the clock on the wall says 1.25am. :rockbrow:


Second When they ambush stephen and fran it's almost like they heard the chopper and decided to hide out being as how they all seem to pop out of the woodwork.
Difficult to say, if Pilato's mob were really intending to hide out and keep their distance, they would've just waited for Flyboy and Franny to leave. First off that grinning cop with the cigar deliberately scared Fran, strange behaviour for someone being stealthy, eh? Also, the 'cigarettes' cop was unloading boxes from a van (stolen goods?) at the time this sudden situation occurs and wasn't exactly being discreet about it. At the end of the day, the only person hiding out seemed to be Pilato but I'm sure he was doing that to spring Flyboy and rob him. The helicopter seems to be their main focus too because ol' cigar-face says "we could get a lot further in this bird skipper!"


Two of Pilato's men call him skipper. That's a name more appropriate for a sea captain not a cop.
And they left by boat, so this "skipper" business implies that he might well have been a legitimate boat captain. As Philly points out.


As far as calling Pilato "skipper", again, we dont know any backstory to that. As cop buddies before the outbreak, Pilato could have owned a boat and the guys went out on it with him, hence a nickname of "skipper".
"Something happens to him and we'd be stuck!"
"Maybe we can make it the island?"
Pilato is definitely the skipper of a boat, police or otherwise. And, it is not uncommon for police officers to man boats so this needs to be considered also.

Now, as for the general behaviour of these so-called cops, this is the most damning evidence of all. Everything you have raised here Darth is pretty much top notch and incriminating to the max.


The wide eyed thug pops out of the back of the truck and says "Just stay cool". Not freeze or show me some i.d. or even what are you doing here...

When they realize that it's a squad car rolling up Pilato looks to his men and says "It's ok we're "police", as if to say,there not gonna mess with us if they think we're cops so calm down...

He also adds "now it would be crazy to start shooting at one another wouldn't it?" a very curiously nervous thing to say. And when they feel that the ruse is working Pilato taps stephen on the stomach as if to say " i know you know, just be cool and there won't be a shoot out...
Indeed, very weird behaviour for cops. The varied actions of all present indicate that they are not a particularly organised outfit and are either a bunch of thieving criminals chancing on a new life at sea or (as Romero has filmed) deserter cops who will do whatever they can to keep their abandoning of the police dock a secret. I know a lot of points I have raised are very contradictory to say the least but as much as I think that Pilato's mob are a bunch of scumbags on the make, I cannot possibly rule out any other conspiracies as most are fair game when it comes to speculation.

I wish there were more topics like this posted at HPotD, that gave me more to chew on than the average hairy minge. :D

[Philly_SWAT]

I wish there were more topics like this posted at HPotD, that gave me more to chew on than the average hairy minge.
Indeed! Although, this was posted back in SEPTEMBER OF LAST YEAR, so I suggest that maybe you werent looking very hard for posts like this! ;)

But seeing as you brought this back to mind, here are a couple of other thoughts that I had after you made your post. I am surprised that this first thought never came to me before, but here it is.....

The scene was shot in Pittsburgh, but was supposed to be set in Philadelphia. I dont know about Philly, but in Pittsburgh, I believe that they have specialized "water cops" in Pittsburgh, as seen in the Bruce Willis movie Striking Distance. With this being the case, it seems logical that GAR just intended for Pilato's crew to be the water cops who worked at the police dock. Seeing as they were loading up city owned supplies and stealing a city owned boat, that would explain there weird behavior. They were in fact cops, but they were "running", just like Roger and Peter were. Remember, Peter and Roger were basically abandoning their posts, stealing city guns, and Fran and Stephen were stealing the WGON traffic chopper. "We're thieves and bad guys, that's exactly what we are". I think it is likely that the sly smiles that Pilato and Roger exchance when the lines "now it would be crazy to start shooting at one another wouldn't it" "It sure would" happen, is that at that instance they both understood what was happening, they were all cops, and they were all abandoning their posts and stealing things. They should have each been trying to stop each other, but the concept of "protecting and serving" had dissapeared at that point, with survival taking over as the purpose of the day.

Also, I think that the dead body outside the building, and the dead guy by the radio are most likely things that GAR just put in the movie without giving it much thought. I mean, it would be a boring scene if they just showed up, got gas, and left.

[capncnut]

They were in fact cops, but they were "running", just like Roger and Peter were. Remember, Peter and Roger were basically abandoning their posts, stealing city guns, and Fran and Stephen were stealing the WGON traffic chopper. "We're thieves and bad guys, that's exactly what we are".
The most likeliest explanation, another Dead Mystery solved by Philly. :D

[DEAD BEAT]

I think cigar guy,skipper,and cigarette boy did as John wanted to do in day.

"they found themselves an island somewhere got jucied up and proceeded to blow eachother until the end of time"!:D

I mean cigar guy did fancy big things in his mouth,skipper looked like he was a dandy and cigarette boy was their little biitch!

And by the way as said before i would have kicked the living shiiit out of cigarette boy for trying to bum a smoke off me minutes after pulling a gun on my asss!:elol: ;)

[JohnoftheDead]

I always had them down as small time hoodlums who were taking advantage of an abandoned Police station.
As for the dead cop at the radio, he may of been bitten and knew what was coming or just lost all hope. I think he made his last contact with whoever was in charge at the time, doing his duty and then checked himself out with a bullet to the head. Although that depends on the location of the wound, I can't remember where it was, but whatever the situation I can't see a zombie sitting down in a chair.

Yeah I always figured the cop had offed himself too. On a side note, I also always thought that he was saying "good luck squad", not swat.

[darth los]

Right, just watched this scene three times in a row and I think might I have some new light to shed. F**k knows why I didn't jump on this one sooner but anyway here's my two cents.:D


I just want to say that all your points are very valid and could possibly explain what happened at the dock. The theory I first posted about the sequence of events was illustrated not necessarily because i believe that's what definitely happened, but is just an alternative version of the genesis of what went down there. We all might see it differently, but imo the one thing we can agree on is that the scene is ambiguous and therefore open to interpretation. everybody's mind works differently and we're all going to interpret what we see in a different way. That's the beauty of sharing our thoughts on the trilogy. I'm sure you've been watching this movie for atleast 20 years, and BAM!! Here's something new to chew on. You have definitely brought up points that I never thought of as well. :D



Okie doke, I hate to disagree so early on Darth but I'm not so sure about that one. You are correct when it comes to identifying the fact that the body does not belong to a police officer (well at least a uniformed one) so there's no argument there. As for being a pal of Pilato's, I don't know. Look at the corpse very carefully, especially at the shot where the pump cable drags across it's back. Check out the hands. They are not fresh and have the trademark grey paint on which leads me to believe that the body has been laying there for quite some time, possibly a day or two. Flyboy certainly doesn't seem too bothered by it when he steps over it.

That's a very good observation and your probably right about the fact that his body has been there for atleast longer than the looters were there.




Even though I have a gut feeling that Pilato's crew were responsible for the radio operator's death, this might not actually be the case. Okay, let's break it down like this.

For:
The radio voice is desparately calling out for the dead operator, like he may have been speaking to him earlier.
Red coloured mark to the forehead.
Against:
The wound is on the face of the operator and there are no visible signs of an entrance wound to the back of the head.
More grey make up which indicates that he might have been dead for a while.
The face is all tattered and ripped open, with a black nose. Possible bludgeoning?
No blood on the desk in front of the operator, was he placed there?
It's definitely a tricky one but even though the odds are stacked against, I think Pilato's mob definately killed him. They probably just attacked him in his chair (possibly after a failed sneak attack) and he might've tried to call for help because the radio voice says something like "No, I'm not getting him at all". On a completely unrelated note, the clock on the wall says 1.25am. :rockbrow:


O.K. Let's assume that pilato's men killed him. They were obviously in a rush to get what they could and bail out of there. Like you said, no entry wound in the back of the head, just a wound on his face that could have been from a gunshot or blunt instrument. That being the case, we can infer that it is very unlikly that he was killed in his chair from behind because he was slumped over his desk. Don't you think it a little strange that pilato's men would murder someone and then take the time to prop him in that position? That's definitely goes to the argument that he killed himself. I know that goes against my original argument, but that's what debate is all about. You presented evidence and it definitely could have gone down that way.



Difficult to say, if Pilato's mob were really intending to hide out and keep their distance, they would've just waited for Flyboy and Franny to leave. First off that grinning cop with the cigar deliberately scared Fran, strange behaviour for someone being stealthy, eh? Also, the 'cigarettes' cop was unloading boxes from a van (stolen goods?) at the time this sudden situation occurs and wasn't exactly being discreet about it. At the end of the day, the only person hiding out seemed to be Pilato but I'm sure he was doing that to spring Flyboy and rob him. The helicopter seems to be their main focus too because ol' cigar-face says "we could get a lot further in this bird skipper!"
And they left by boat, so this "skipper" business implies that he might well have been a legitimate boat captain. As Philly points out.
"Something happens to him and we'd be stuck!"
"Maybe we can make it the island?"
Pilato is definitely the skipper of a boat, police or otherwise. And, it is not uncommon for police officers to man boats so this needs to be considered also.

In my mind there's no doubt they were laying low. I think that they indeed were hiding out, maybe not until they left but if anything just to survey who would come out of the chopper. Once they saw it was just an unarmed man and woman they figured they could handle it easy, thus their brazeness. although the whole dynamic of the situation changed when Philly Swat showed up.


The scene was shot in Pittsburgh, but was supposed to be set in Philadelphia. I dont know about Philly, but in Pittsburgh, I believe that they have specialized "water cops" in Pittsburgh, as seen in the Bruce Willis movie Striking Distance. With this being the case, it seems logical that GAR just intended for Pilato's crew to be the water cops who worked at the police dock. Seeing as they were loading up city owned supplies and stealing a city owned boat, that would explain there weird behavior. They were in fact cops, but they were "running", just like Roger and Peter were. Remember, Peter and Roger were basically abandoning their posts, stealing city guns, and Fran and Stephen were stealing the WGON traffic chopper. "We're thieves and bad guys, that's exactly what we are". I think it is likely that the sly smiles that Pilato and Roger exchance when the lines "now it would be crazy to start shooting at one another wouldn't it" "It sure would" happen, is that at that instance they both understood what was happening, they were all cops, and they were all abandoning their posts and stealing things. They should have each been trying to stop each other, but the concept of "protecting and serving" had dissapeared at that point, with survival taking over as the purpose of the day.

Also, I think that the dead body outside the building, and the dead guy by the radio are most likely things that GAR just put in the movie without giving it much thought. I mean, it would be a boring scene if they just showed up, got gas, and left.


great alternative theory philly and as the others are, also entirely possible. On your second comment, it wouldn't be the first time that fanatics of the trilogy scrutinized things in the films that are definitely there but GAR didn't do on purpose.

[Philly_SWAT]

great alternative theory philly and as the others are, also entirely possible. On your second comment, it wouldn't be the first time that fanatics of the trilogy scrutinized things in the films that are definitely there but GAR didn't do on purpose.Who are you calling a fanatic?? I would argue the point, but right now I am planning my trip to the 2008 Pittsburgh Comicon.....

[darth los]

Oh, in that case I don't know what I was thinking. Sorry...:p

[RustyHicks]

My opinion. They were all crooks J/K

Pilto and his men were probably normal people, well hunters or
sportmen who knew about guns and I think they killed some cops to
get those uniforms, they knew if they were dressed as cops they would
get some leeway when it came to the blockaids and raids around the city.
They raided that docking bay for supplies, probably like Cap said earlier,
killed the cop sitting at the desk and maybe heard the chopper coming
and ran for cover, thinking it might be the police and here they are,
standing over a dead cops body, but once they realized it was just
non cop chopper they went to see what was what. Played the
role as cops.
Don't know what would have went down after, if Roger and Peter didn't come.
I think they might have killed Franny and Stephen and took off in the chopper. Once they forced Stephen, who was a dope anyways, to show
them how to handle a chopper.

[darth los]

My opinion. They were all crooks J/K

Pilto and his men were probably normal people, well hunters or
sportmen who knew about guns and I think they killed some cops to
get those uniforms, they knew if they were dressed as cops they would
get some leeway when it came to the blockaids and raids around the city.
They raided that docking bay for supplies, probably like Cap said earlier,
killed the cop sitting at the desk and maybe heard the chopper coming
and ran for cover, thinking it might be the police and here they are,
standing over a dead cops body, but once they realized it was just
non cop chopper they went to see what was what. Played the
role as cops.
Don't know what would have went down after, if Roger and Peter didn't come.
I think they might have killed Franny and Stephen and took off in the chopper. Once they forced Stephen, who was a dope anyways, to show
them how to handle a chopper.


The way that whole scene was going it didn't look very good for fran and stephen. Those guys looked like degenerates anyway. Like i said they looked way too nervous when pete and roger arrived and seemed to calm down significantly when it was apparent that they didn't want any trouble either.

[RustyHicks]

The way Pilto says "We're cops" and then the goofy guy says
"Bull**** man" You just know that's a clear messages that they're
cops just as much as king kong is a hamster

[darth los]

The way Pilto says "We're cops" and then the goofy guy says
"Bull**** man" You just know that's a clear messages that they're
cops just as much as king kong is a hamster

I got the same vibe from that line as well. Is was as if he was like, "we're cops REMEBER!!" Just stick to the plan and everything will be ok basically. He was telling his cohort, "dude don't flip out on me now." Like i said earlier, like many instances in the films this scene is ambiguous and open to interpretation. Just gives us a whole lot of ammunition for discussion.

[RustyHicks]

You could go the other way and say they were really cops,
paranoid cops who were afraid of being raided by people who
are in a panic, just wanna get away and will kill to do so.
Maybe they thought Stephen and Fran were up to something

[darth los]

You could go the other way and say they were really cops,
paranoid cops who were afraid of being raided by people who
are in a panic, just wanna get away and will kill to do so.
Maybe they thought Stephen and Fran were up to something

whether they were policemen or not i think that it's very likely that they had something to do with that radio operator's death. It's just too much of a coincidence for my taste.

[RustyHicks]

They did act very guilty didn't they.
I sensed there was more to that scene
but it never got played out in the movie.

[darth los]

They did act very guilty didn't they.
I sensed there was more to that scene
but it never got played out in the movie.

Which is precisely my motivation for posting about it. The perspective of others can be very helpful in interpreting things.

[darth los]

same as last time. just wanna see what the newer members think.:cool:

[Bub666]

I don't think they were really police.

[sandrock74]

I just realized that I have only seen the extended cut one time, many moons ago, so I only vaguely recall the full scene in its entirety. I should refrain from commenting on it until I get a chance to view it again somewhere.

But, as always, I do have my opinions...:rant:

[SRP76]

It seemed to me like some of them may have been "real" cops, along with a group of civilians; they just all happened to be breaking for it, by any means necessary.

Exactly like our four heroes. Roger and Peter were technically legit law enforcement, but they were casting that aside to save themselves alongside two civilian partners.

[sandrock74]

OK, thanks to youtube I just saw the extended version of this scene for the first time in years.

I think its apparant that the "cops" were shady. If they were cops, which I dont think they were, they were just trying to escape all the chaos around them. I don't think they killed the people at the dock, they didn't strike me as killers. Thieves perhaps, but not killers.

Pilato seemed keen on keeping his people concentrating on the plan at hand. He dismissed the copter because it wasn't practicle (it couldn't hold them all AND none of them knew how to pilot it) and he showed by being the mouthpiece of the group, that he was perfectly willing to "live and let live" with the fantastic four. His group had a plan and he was making sure they were sticking to it.

What happened to the two bodies already there? I don't know. Maybe it was Romeros way to show that people with like plans had already gone thru there. Or to ratchet up the tension factor by having bodies there. Or maybe they were a part of a previous bungled plan that took place there? In any event, I believe Romero was just trying to show that despite the lack of zombies present, it wasn't a safe place to hang around, so fleeing was the way to go.

It is interesting to speculate on what happened there previously.

[CornishCorpse]

Alright ladies and gents here is my take on things. Today was a slow day at work so I had time to think this out

Yeah the "police" acted shady but who is to say that they killed the officer? My theory on things is that the group could have been friends of the radio operator or simply stumbled on the place when searching for help and the police. It makes enough sense eitherway the radio operator was infected and was killed. They did not call it in because they wouldnt want the flak, seeing things going to hell they decide to get the hell out.

Then our motley crew bounce onto the scene mid way through them looting whatever they can find so they can shove it on the boat. Somehow the "He was one of our buddies and we had to kill him" or the alternative " He came back at his desk and one of the guys had to pop him" doesnt sound very good. Nobody would belive that and most would assume like most people that they were just looting so no wonder they were on their guard. They could have been fending from themselves thats why they didnt kill our heroes. They could kill in self defense, against a ghoul but innocent people just trying to get out like themselves? They arent killers. Theyre just trying to get hell out of there..

The whole going to an island, any island plan seems to make a lot more sense with my theory. How guilty they all look and in a situation like this people would be more likely to kill/arrest them then question and look at circumstances. Looters will be shot on sight? So a friend or a ghoul eitherway it gets put down and they need to get out and away. Going for an island, any island sounds like a spurr of the moment plan. If it was indeed a friend then a group of friends having to put down one of their best friends then things hit home and they decide they need to bail. Surrounded by supplies and weapons who wouldnt think " We need to take what the hell we can and get out of here.."

SHORT VERSION: Bunch of guys thinking they would be safer hanging around with one of their friends at a goverment building, police station sort of thing. Harbour controll and him being bit before they get there or after. The corpse outside could have been the one who bit the operator since he was the only armed member and went to check it and got bit.

[Yojimbo]

If that had happened, instead of the great Goblin music, we could have heard something like this....

Just sit right back and you'll hear a tale
A tale of a zombie plague
That started at a po-lice dock
During a ransack raid
The mate was a cigarette smoking man
The "Skipper" brave and sure
Five men who were cops, or just rogue thugs
Wanted to keep their blood pure. Just keep their blood pure.

The zombies started getting rough
Their tiny craft was tossed
If not for the fact they were low on rounds
They'd blow some heads off. They'd blow some heads off.

Their ship set ground on a shore of a
well-charted Pittsburgh isle
With cigarette guy
The Skipper too
No millionaires
And no wives
No movie stars
Just the rest
Right here on zombie-free isle


Philly, :lol::lol: you totally rule brother!!


whether they were policemen or not i think that it's very likely that they had something to do with that radio operator's death. It's just too much of a coincidence for my taste.
Agreed. Perhaps this is why they were behaving so strangely. They raided the dock and then in the process possibly capping a few cops at the station before having to take out the guy radioing for backup.

[darth los]

Philly, :lol::lol: you totally rule brother!!


Agreed. Perhaps this is why they were behaving so strangely. They raided the dock and then in the process possibly capping a few cops at the station before having to take out the guy radioing for backup.

See, that's the reason why the trilogy rules. There are many instances where things are just ambiguous enough to be interpreted in a variety of ways. It could have also been that they stumbled onto the body first and were nervous when company showed up because they might think they killed him.