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Zombie-A-GoGo
30-Sep-2006, 07:22 PM
I just read this update on an issue I've been following with interest, and I thought I'd post it here for consideration and maybe some discussion, since, according to another thread that's since been closed, some people seem to be under the impression that there is no legislation out there designed to erode the rights of non-believers.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/29/AR2006092901055.html


With little public attention or even notice, the House of Representatives has passed a bill that undermines enforcement of the First Amendment's separation of church and state. The Public Expression of Religion Act - H.R. 2679 - provides that attorneys who successfully challenge government actions as violating the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment shall not be entitled to recover attorneys fees. The bill has only one purpose: to prevent suits challenging unconstitutional government actions advancing religion.

A federal statute, 42 United States Code section 1988, provides that attorneys are entitled to recover compensation for their fees if they successfully represent a plaintiff asserting a violation of his or her constitutional or civil rights. For example, a lawyer who successfully sues on behalf of a victim of racial discrimination or police abuse is entitled to recover attorney's fees from the defendant who acted wrongfully. Any plaintiff who successfully sues to remedy a violation of the Constitution or a federal civil rights statute is entitled to have his or her attorney's fees paid.

Congress adopted this statute for a simple reason: to encourage attorneys to bring cases on behalf of those whose rights have been violated. Congress was concerned that such individuals often cannot afford an attorney and vindicating constitutional rights rarely generates enough in damages to pay a lawyer on a contingency fee basis.

Without this statute, there is no way to compensate attorneys who successfully sue for injunctions to stop unconstitutional government behavior. Congress rightly recognized that attorneys who bring such actions are serving society's interests by stopping the government from violating the Constitution. Indeed, the potential for such suits deters government wrong-doing and increases the likelihood that the Constitution will be followed.

The attorneys' fees statute has worked well for almost 30 years. Lawyers receive attorneys' fees under the law only if their claim is meritorious and they win in court. Unsuccessful lawyers get nothing under the law. This creates a strong disincentive to frivolous suits and encourages lawyers to bring only clearly meritorious ones.

Despite the effectiveness of this statute, conservatives in the House of Representatives have now passed an insidious bill to try and limit enforcement of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, by denying attorneys fees to lawyers who successfully challenge government actions as violating this key constitutional provision. For instance, a lawyer who successfully challenged unconstitutional prayers in schools or unconstitutional symbols on religious property or impermissible aid to religious groups would -- under the bill -- not be entitled to recover attorneys' fees. The bill, if enacted, would treat suits to enforce the Establishment Clause different from litigation to enforce all of the other provisions of the Constitution and federal civil rights statutes.

Such a bill could have only one motive: to protect unconstitutional government actions advancing religion. The religious right, which has been trying for years to use government to advance their religious views, wants to reduce the likelihood that their efforts will be declared unconstitutional. Since they cannot change the law of the Establishment Clause by statute, they have turned their attention to trying to prevent its enforcement by eliminating the possibility for recovery of attorneys' fees.

Those who successfully prove the government has violated their constitutional rights would, under the bill, be required to pay their own legal fees. Few people can afford to do so. Without the possibility of attorneys' fees, individuals who suffer unconstitutional religious persecution often will be unable to sue. The bill applies even to cases involving illegal religious coercion of public school children or blatant discrimination against particular religions.

The passage of this bill by the House is a disturbing achievement by those who seek to undermine our nation's commitment to fundamental freedoms laid out in the Constitution. Should it come up for a vote, it is imperative that the Senate reject this nefarious proposal. The religious right is looking for a way to get away with violating the Establishment Clause and is now one step closer to this goal. The Establishment Clause is no less important than any other part of the Bill of Rights and suits to enforce it should be treated no differently than any other litigation to enforce civil liberties and civil rights.

Arcades057
30-Sep-2006, 07:59 PM
All I can say is good. Far too many frivolous lawsuits are brought forth to attack religion (like removing crosses from cemetaries and the like) and the attorneys are almost guaranteed a payday. Hopefully this will mean the end of the secular-"progressive" attack on religion. Doubt it, but just maybe.

By the way, I am not a religious person. :D I'm for the religious folks for the same reason I'm for the right: I don't like SPs or their politics. Any group that says abortion is fine, but executing a child-rapist and murderer is wrong is... I don't know, with the profanity filters I can't really say what I mean, but I think those folks are pretty stupid.

SPs: Ahhhh! They're coming to force their religion down my throat by celebrating Christmas and Easter, saying "Merry Christmas" and making my kids aware that they are not the center of the universe!!!!!" Bunch of paranoid freaks... http://www.flyaceshigh.com/forums/images/smilies/paranoid.gif

Exatreides
30-Sep-2006, 08:10 PM
Arc, If abortion is so horrid. Establish laws, programs, and goverment aid to the underprivilged women who have the children, insted of abandoning them when their born. People always seem to forget that you have birth days, and not conseption days.

Don't really like it I don't want to have to sit through Christian crap, and I highly doubt they would want to sit through my Jewish belifes.

Arcades057
30-Sep-2006, 10:11 PM
That's your problem, Exa. You boil religion down to abortion. Too many SPs fall into the same category, finding religion evil and all that is wrong with the world because it does not accept deviance (such as abortion and homosexuality). Instead of trying to eliminate religion (which you never will, because the SP side is inherantly weak) try to work with it, accept it, and move on. :rolleyes:

Exatreides
30-Sep-2006, 10:57 PM
Did you notice where I said I was a jew? You can elminate Religion from Goverment, ya know what America has done since it's birth? Why start now with that crap. And since our country is ruled with the concept of Majority Rule, Minority right. Muslims would have the ability to force alcohal out of hospitals, and us Jews could ban bar b que ribs. IF you open the door for christians you have to do it for everyone. With no exception, or you become incredibly hypocritical.

Marie
01-Oct-2006, 12:34 AM
Don't really like it I don't want to have to sit through Christian crap, and I highly doubt they would want to sit through my Jewish belifes.

And yet I've attended Jewish, Catholic and Prostant services, as well as Wiccan Circles, and not only enjoyed the Majesty and Sacredness of the experences, but learned things about people too.

I'm a UU btw normally.

M_

Chakobsa
01-Oct-2006, 01:18 AM
I think that it's clear that America is fast approaching the time where the religeous right is going to make a push towards establishing a "Christian" theocracy.
Consider this, many of the people who have the ear of the "Commander in Chief" of the most powerful military machine the world has ever known believe in the kind of life hating bilge spewed out by maniacs like John Nelson Darby.
Some of them believe that Solomon's temple in Jerusalem must be rebuilt in accordance with prophecy, the only snag is that the Qubbat As-Sakhrah shrine
where Muhammad is supposed to have ascended into heaven is there. Nice.

Khardis
01-Oct-2006, 02:44 AM
I just read this update on an issue I've been following with interest, and I thought I'd post it here for consideration and maybe some discussion, since, according to another thread that's since been closed, some people seem to be under the impression that there is no legislation out there designed to erode the rights of non-believers.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/29/AR2006092901055.html

I didnt read everything, but I thought I might mention that there is no seperation of church and state in the actual constitution. That is something that was said in the federalist papers I believe.


All I can say is good. Far too many frivolous lawsuits are brought forth to attack religion (like removing crosses from cemetaries and the like) and the attorneys are almost guaranteed a payday. Hopefully this will mean the end of the secular-"progressive" attack on religion. Doubt it, but just maybe.

By the way, I am not a religious person. :D I'm for the religious folks for the same reason I'm for the right: I don't like SPs or their politics. Any group that says abortion is fine, but executing a child-rapist and murderer is wrong is... I don't know, with the profanity filters I can't really say what I mean, but I think those folks are pretty stupid.

SPs: Ahhhh! They're coming to force their religion down my throat by celebrating Christmas and Easter, saying "Merry Christmas" and making my kids aware that they are not the center of the universe!!!!!" Bunch of paranoid freaks... http://www.flyaceshigh.com/forums/images/smilies/paranoid.gif

Haha right on Arcades! I am with you on this. I dont remember the last time a Christian tried to take away my rights, but liberals try to take them away every year. WHy last year they took down our town greens Christmas Tree. Oh they left the Kwanzaa symbolism though.


Arc, If abortion is so horrid. Establish laws, programs, and goverment aid to the underprivilged women who have the children, insted of abandoning them when their born. People always seem to forget that you have birth days, and not conseption days.

Don't really like it I don't want to have to sit through Christian crap, and I highly doubt they would want to sit through my Jewish belifes.

If a woman cant get contraception (B effing S!) then they should give the kids up for adoption. By the way every Planned Parenthood in the Continental USA provides free birth control, and pills on a "sliding scale". SO if you make 100 bucks a week youll only be paying 10 bucks.

And before you all jump on me and say "WHUT DEW WE DEW WIT DA BABIEZ YOU NAZI FASHIST!"

Adoption. Give em up. I know 3 couples RIGHT THIS SECOND who are infertile looking to adopt a child but cannot because the waiting list is so long. Jeez, people go to China and Vietnam and Russia to adopt the waiting list is so damned huge.


That's your problem, Exa. You boil religion down to abortion. Too many SPs fall into the same category, finding religion evil and all that is wrong with the world because it does not accept deviance (such as abortion and homosexuality). Instead of trying to eliminate religion (which you never will, because the SP side is inherantly weak) try to work with it, accept it, and move on. :rolleyes:

Dont be so quick to abandon abortion Arcades. The liberal democrats are literally aborting thier party away. WHy do you think they come up just short on national elections now? Ahem Fertility gap? the same reason Bush carried the top 10 most fertile states while Kerry carried the top 10 most infertile states.


Did you notice where I said I was a jew? You can elminate Religion from Goverment, ya know what America has done since it's birth? Why start now with that crap. And since our country is ruled with the concept of Majority Rule, Minority right. Muslims would have the ability to force alcohal out of hospitals, and us Jews could ban bar b que ribs. IF you open the door for christians you have to do it for everyone. With no exception, or you become incredibly hypocritical.

Nice straw man, I dont recall Arcades appealing for a theocracy. I just think he means that we shouldnt have to neutralize the OBVIOUS Christian roots of the nation. We shouldnt have to take the word God off our money or out of the pledge, we should expel students for forming a Christian prayer circle. I say Christian prayer circle because those are the onyl ones being targeted, Muslim students who need to pray a number of times per day are almost excluesively allowed to. I wonder if any Christians could get away with that.


I think that it's clear that America is fast approaching the time where the religeous right is going to make a push towards establishing a "Christian" theocracy.
Consider this, many of the people who have the ear of the "Commander in Chief" of the most powerful military machine the world has ever known believe in the kind of life hating bilge spewed out by maniacs like John Nelson Darby.
Some of them believe that Solomon's temple in Jerusalem must be rebuilt in accordance with prophecy, the only snag is that the Qubbat As-Sakhrah shrine
where Muhammad is supposed to have ascended into heaven is there. Nice.

I think thats a rabid paranoid delusion. I think we will long become an athiest hellhole devoid of a rich culture and tradition of western civilization and embrace all things morally relevant before he hit theocracy. If there was ever a chance for a Christian theocracy it was 100 or more years ago. Since then its become nigh impossible.

Kaos
01-Oct-2006, 03:41 AM
If there was ever a chance for a Christian theocracy it was 100 or more years ago. Since then its become nigh impossible.

Thank God!;)

Arcades057
01-Oct-2006, 06:15 AM
abortion... ribs... alcohol...

Let's begin with the first fallacy, that America was formed without consideration of religion... BS. Any schoolchild knows the truth... well, they used to. Now since you can't even mention the name "God" or "Jesus" in school, maybe they don't. Want to talk about attacks? How about the removal of all religion from school? How about you can't have Christmas parties anymore? How about you can't have religious symbols (ie, Christmas trees, Nativity scenes, or Menorahs) on public ground? The attempt (or possibly the success, I haven't paid much attention) to remove "...under God..." from the pledge of allegiance?

As to the rest of that nonsense, you misunderstand, as usualy, the case at hand. All those things you said, eliminating alcohol from hospitals, BBQ'd ribs and such, it's already true to a certain extent. Prisons and hospitals and airlines now have to provide Halal (sp?) and Kosher meals for those of Jewish or Muslim background.

And I still fail to see the problem with any of the legislation being talked about in the original post. So lawyers (already the most unscrupulous people on the face of the earth) can no longer be rewarded out of the public coffers for putting forward frivolous cases? Why should any of you care?

I know why you do... See, SPs have this idea that they are the center of Creation, that there is no one above them. This is why they hate Bush and all Republicans; the Reps. are in the majority and are in charge of everything, therefore the SPs get mad because the existence of the Reps. makes a lie of all their hopes and dreams. Because God, or even the very idea of A God is yet more proof that they are not the center of creation, they hate religion. It's not something as simple as the contempt and the pity that I feel for SPs, no they loath religion. God stands in the way of things such as homosexuality and abortion, the two cause celebres of the SP movement... both are considered deviant behavior, which is not to say it is wrong, in a sense, but that it deviates from the norm. The SPs attack religion because they feel threatened... meanwhile any halfway intelligent homosexual or any woman who has had an abortion knows that their God accepts them regardless of what they do.

And why is it that SPs are fine with killing unborn children, but they recoil at the idea of killing a rapist or murderer? Why, they (the SPs) take the path of least resistance: Blame no one for anything they've ever done; simply come up with a mysterious "Them" or "The Man" to blame it all on. When lacking either of the former, substitute a "Society" and they're just as happy. To an SP, it is never the fault of the sicko that raped four little boys and killed another ten; no, Society did that to him. When a gangbanger kills a couple people and then brags about it, it's not that person's fault, it's "The Man." When people fly planes into buildings to kill people going off to work, they aren't terrorists, they're "insurgents, freedom fighters, or militants."

But the SPs are quick to blame religion for just about all of the country's ills. Talk about things to be afraid of in this country and they will most assuredly answer "an American Theocracy"... as someone already has. They don't believe that terrorism is a real threat, even after 9/11 and all of the aborted attempts afterward... but they believe that somehow a Christian Theocracy will rise out of the ash of the American Democracy... and they believe this with a certainty that mirrors those "there was no moon landing" fools.

That's about it. That and ... http://www.flyaceshigh.com/forums/images/smilies/paranoid.gif For the scared SPs.

Khardis
02-Oct-2006, 02:25 AM
Thank God!;)

Agreed, I dont want to live under a theocracy. Puritanism didnt work too good either. But I dont want to live in a godless anti religion hell hole either, if I did I would move to the Netherlands, I hear that crime is taking a turn for the worst over there and the birth rates are so low that the government has to pay couples with tax breaks to produce children... so sad, they are on the verge of becoming extinct.

Chakobsa
02-Oct-2006, 09:37 AM
Khardis, it's fine that you disagree with my post, however I'm neither rabid, paranoid or delusional.
Make your point without the insults.

Kaos
02-Oct-2006, 12:42 PM
Khardis, it's fine that you disagree with my post, however I'm neither rabid, paranoid or delusional.
Make your point without the insults.

I agree that both sides need to ease up on their rightwing and leftwing paranoid rhetoric. The topic is closed at least temporarily.