All this hoo-ha about muslim women and their veils (niqab)...

[Neil]

How is the wearing of this, and the rest of their clothes, anything other than in reality a throw back to male chauvinist oppressive views?

Why aren't the men asked to wear such garments?


Jack Straw (MP) suggests to muslim women he'd rather speak to them face to face and now he's getting condemned for it...

[Chakobsa]

How is the wearing of this, and the rest of their clothes, anything other than in reality a throw back to male chauvinist oppressive views?

Why aren't the men asked to wear such garments?


Jack Straw (MP) suggests to muslim women he'd rather speak to them face to face and now he's getting condemned for it...
I think that it's probably obvious to any thinking person that the three Abrahamic religions have at their core a deep fear and hatred of women. The veil is just another manifestation of this.

[Purge]

Bill Maher summed it up well when he said something to the effect of: "Whereas in our culture we try to get women to undress as much as possible, their philosophy seems to be: 'If I can't have the p*ssy, I don't even wanna see it.'" :elol: :p

[Tricky]

Im not sure,but the ones who have started wearing them are doing it to say something without using words in my opinion,its sinister!it doesnt say in the quran that they have to dress like that,nor do the majority of moderate muslim women wear anything like that.The ones who are doing it are showing off the fact that they are fanatics,and if they arent then they have a bullying husband who is :shifty:

[capncnut]

Misogynistic demands, full stop.

[Debbieangel]

To me the berka is definitely oppression its like a wall a woman is wearing so a man dont have to bother with her...he dont have to care how she feels about anything just how he feels ...thats really selfish!
I am all for a woman making her man happy in all ways she a can but that is rediculous!
When we have relationships isnt it supposed to be 50/50?
I could never live in their world of berka's and submission just ask my hubby! lol


To me the berka is definitely oppression its like a wall a woman is wearing so a man dont have to bother with her...he dont have to care how she feels about anything just how he feels ...thats really selfish!
I am all for a woman making her man happy in all ways she a can but that is rediculous!
When we have relationships isnt it supposed to be 50/50?
I could never live in their world of berka's and submission just ask my hubby! lol

ooh ya..aaah Neil..I can see my hubby right now in one of those berka's..lollll
thanks for the mental pic! ROFLOL

[capncnut]

When we have relationships isnt it supposed to be 50/50? I could never live in their world of berka's and submission...

A lot of men would ridicule that comment on principle but me (as a man) would have to say that figure is inaccurate. Every relationship I've been in has been 90/10 to the female! :D

[_liam_]

the way they see it women are a beautiful and miraculous creation and do not need to cheapen themselves by parading their appearence for our benefit.

to be honest, the fact that some people choose to cover a 20x15cm area of their face doesn't bother me, seeing as it's required for women to cover most of their bodies anyway in our society, i think most people's exceptions to the burka stem from something else. that said we live in quite a paranoid culture, where you aren't even allowed to wear a hooded top in some places because it makes people feel uneasy (in the uk anyway).

i find it interesting that a while back everyone was recoiling in shock that girls in france were being expelled for wearing headscarves, and yet now everyone seems to agree that a teaching assistant should be sacked for covering her face.

i think everyone, both muslims and liberalised western types all just need to calm down, weve coexisted with some degree of success since the crusades, let's not let some frustrated terrorist students (who's actions are condemned by the first few pages of their holy book, see "Mischief makers in the land", etc) spoil stuff for everyone.

[MinionZombie]

I'm surprised this issue hasn't come up in the UK before, because - damn straight. If what's been said is indeed the case (which I'm sure it is), the garment is a sign of male oppression over women - born from a country where women are third-class citizens, beaten and raped for even trying to get an education and a job :eek::eek: (I know!:|).

Talking face-to-face is part of Western society, it's how WE do things here in the West, if they don't like it, then clearly they're living in a society that is completely against their own ways - now I've got nothing against them, but if they don't wanna play the game "when in Rome", then go some place where you are willing to play "when in Rome".

The whole veil thing was also to do with living in a desert climate, to keep the sun off - a purely practical device before it was linked to the religion, and therefore the extreme male chauvinism.

What good are CCTV cameras when you can't see someone's face. Do you know it's actually a woman under there, or might it be the slightest possibility in that slightest chance a terrorist using the disguise to cause more damage in the name of their twisted understanding of a generally peaceful religion (extreme chauvinism aside).

I don't know what they're called, but the wraps that just go around the head, but reveal the face, as well as the garments where you can see their feet and hands - what's wrong with that instead of a big sheet covering everything? You can retain the respect to your God (which they do in part by covering their head - I personally don't "get" how that is supposed to show respect) and you can live in a Western society where communication is done face-to-face.

How on earth can a school teacher, all decked out in the full kit, teach a class? For one it's a huge distraction, secondly how can you fully understand them? You can't see their body language, you can't see their face - just a pair of eyes poking out from a wodge of cloth.

I'm glad the issue has come up, because like it or not, in Western society we do certain things in a certain way. You can't come to another country - especially one that operates in a way almost completely opposed to your religion - and expect to keep all your own society's aspects and then pile on a super helping of all the good stuff about Western society. It's quite literally having your cake and eating it - and it doesn't work like that.

Muslims are people just like the rest of us, so nobody should be getting preferencial treatment - if we go to their place of origin, we are expected to live by their rules - so why not likewise over here? I tell you why - political correctness gone mad - all thanks to Tony Blair and his gang of yobbish louts and useless jerk offs.

*sigh*

Nothing quite like a pre-lunch political rant is there?

[LoSTBoY]

^^^^^Preach MZ. :)

What I don't get is that it's the women who are complaining the most. They were forced to wear it back in their country but now that they can remove it they don't! :|

I wonder what happens if they go into a bank, motorcyclists have to remove their helmets so they can see the face.

This is one in many problems associated with Islam in the UK. Get with the program or piss off!

[Neil]

I think the other thing that concerns me is how in England, English can be a second language - In a school near me, a friend had to remove their two childen basically because Urdu was was the most common language being used...

Integration is important...

[Tricky]

Why are we fighting that kind of thing abroad,but letting it flourish back home,it makes no sense!It should also be noted that a lot of muslims are at university studying to be lawyers & other high flyers,while theres nothing wrong with that in theory,the worrying part is if in 20 years time they start becoming MP's & getting into top government jobs,maybe start implementing that sharia law they are demanding at the moment.It could happen,just the same way as the majority of us dont want to be governed by europe but that is creeping in without us getting a say in it....:confused:

Fancy that pint & rant MZ? :p

[Graebel]

The use of a burka as religious expression doesn't bother me any more than a yalmuke.

However, it seems like more and more Arabs are using burkas and extreme garb to separate themselves from their western counterparts. And if you don't want to belong-----go the hell home!

[MinionZombie]

Graebel - indeed, it does appear as very much a barrier - something different. It's something at the heart of our society generally, but they're not making the situation any easier.

I see what you mean about getting into higher positions, but I think that'd be a while away, a good while away - then of course there's the glass ceiling of sorts at various levels and the whole status quo of the government set up. Also, there's everyone in Britain who isn't Muslim. There's about 1 million of them (in small pockets across England, mainly in and around London) versus plus 60 million non-Muslims, so there's quite a mountain to climb.

That whole demand for Shariah Law was a complete kick in the balls - a total example of glaring into the mouth of the proverbial gift horse. This political correctness bollocks must come to an end soon, more and more I'm hearing frustrations from people about it - you often hear it on TV - so I think we're on the cusp of a revolution - a revolution where British people can say "actually, NO!" once again, as well as live their lives without the fear of upsetting someone - like taking down your England flag from your car for fear of offending someone (happened to a friend of mine not too long ago actually).

Tricky - check out the filmmaker forum for my "impromptu video commentary" of I Am Zombie Man - there's at least a little snippet in there that you'll enjoy. :cool::D

[Neil]

That whole demand for Shariah Law was a complete kick in the balls - a total example of glaring into the mouth of the proverbial gift horse. This political correctness bollocks must come to an end soon, more and more I'm hearing frustrations from people about it - you often hear it on TV - so I think we're on the cusp of a revolution - a revolution where British people can say "actually, NO!" once again, as well as live their lives without the fear of upsetting someone - like taking down your England flag from your car for fear of offending someone (happened to a friend of mine not too long ago actually).

Wasn't there an article recently about someone being diciplined because they wouldn't remove their crucifix and it was deemed offensive?

[MinionZombie]

Yes, a news reader on the BBC ... forget the name, but yeah, a total load of crap kicked up about a small crucifix necklace - meanwhile there was a Muslim spokesperson talking about the issue and he was saying that most Muslims, himself included, couldn't give a buggery whether she was sporting Jesus' last hang out ... *winces* too close-a pun? I claim the 1st :D *teehee*

All I can say is what a load of bollocks - I'm very much an Athiest and I couldn't care if she's wearing one - that's something to think about, it's never about what an Athiest might think or how they might take offence? hehe, but then again we're a lazy bunch. :lol:

Positive discrimination ... what a crock of poopy, eh?

[_liam_]

i appreciate all the points raised, but i still don't think it's that big a deal. someone fully veiled cannot teach a class? nuns teach and have taught thousands of children in this country, and the only difference is you can see their nose & mouth.

i don't know about all this when in rome stuff. i stand by it as far as not subjugating women or making animal sacrifices in the street, but surely what you wear is of no consequence? i personally would find a woman in a veil more approachable than say, a gang of skinheads or leigh bowery.


the amish, pagans, nudists, furries, klingon nuts, rastas, vampires, survivalists and commune hippies dont do as the many of us do, but we accept them all the same, or at least, we do not demand that they conform to our standards.

sikhs often have turbans and large beards, their features are almost as obscured (ok ...you can see their nose & lips) and are among the only persons in the UK allowed to carry knives on their person in public, again, though, it's not an issue.

i think our innate human xenophobia (because as civilised and liberal as we are, it's instinct to fear the different, but it is also the virtue & endeavour of the sentient being to challenge these instincts & try to progress) mixed with a very real fear of islamic fundamentalism has created a frustration with muslims that usually simmered, but after the various terrorists attacks and overreactions from the muslim community over the rushdie, mohammed cartoon and recent pope incidents, is beginning to boil and over and people, fuelled by the media and diplomatically tactless (though competent) politicians like jack straw, are getting intolerant & snipey.

perhaps we should simply advise muslims not to emigrate to this country, instead of encouraging people into our workforce and the supressing their customs.

and again, it must be noted that a VERY small amount of muslim women overall wear a full veil. how many have you seen recently?

we must be cautious not to be manipulated, strange things are happening in the world.

[LoSTBoY]

nuns teach and have taught thousands of children in this country, and the only difference is you can see their nose & mouth.

Yep, that's pretty much the problem.

Do they wear they veils when posing for a passport or a driving licence? Should they be able to walk into a bank with them on?

I don't give a monkeys about their religion, the problem is that they are hiding their identity and to kids the only people who should be wearing a mask are wrestlers.