Unreasonable Searches and Seizures....

[Terran]

If it were possible I would save up enough money and move to a country where I did not have to be so terrified of my own government….it seems like though a place like that doesn’t exist….

My home town…
Fairfax, VA 2006. A swat team apprehended Sal Culosi, a local optometrist accused of betting on sports with an undercover detective. As Culosi came out to meet the officer to pay a debt the SWAT team descended. One officer’s gun apparently discharged accidentally hitting Culosi in the chest and killing him instantly. Culosi had no prior criminal record and no history of violence. Police found no weapons in his home. A Fairfax police department spokesman told the Washington post the department serves most of its warrants with a SWAT team, even for nonviolent crimes.
(This particular case seems even worse as it appears the detective influenced the victim into betting more and more until it was actually a crime…before Culosi met the detective he made occasional 50$ bets)

related article http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,193652,00.html


Sunrise Florida 2005. A SWAT team raided the home of Anthony Diotaiuto a bartender and part-time student. Police say the team was necessary because Diotaiuto owned a legal, and licensed and registered handgun. Diotaiuto had no history of violence and one prior conviction for marijuana possession as a minor. Police say that as they raided the home, Diotaiuto met them in the bedroom with a gun and they opened fire. His bullet-riddled body was found in a closet. Policed discovered only two ounces of marijuana. Some sources indicate that the SWAT team did not identify themselves as police officers.

Omao Hawaii 2005. Police mistakenly borke into the residence of Sharon and William McCulley on a drug raid. The McCulleys home with their grandchildren at the time were thrown to the ground at gun point. William McCulley who uses a walker and has an implanted device to deliver electrical shocks to his spine to relieve pain, began flopping around on the floor. (They luckily got 100k for their trauma)…

Maryland 2005. A SWAT team in Baltimore County descended on the home of Cheryl Lynn Noel at 5am after finding marijuana seeds in the familys trash. When officers entered Noel’s second floor bedroom, the middle age woman sat upright in her bed frightened holding a handgun (owned legally). A SWAT officer fired twice from behind a bullet proof shield, hitting Noel in the chest, then fired a third shot at close range. Noel died at the scene. Friends and acquaintances described Noel as a person who ran a bible study group on her lunch breaks. Research has turned up more than three dozen cases in which wholly innocent people have been killed in paramilitary raids.

http://www.examiner.com/a-210987~Family_of_slain_Dundalk_woman_sues_Baltimor e_County_police.html

Pennsylvania 2004 Police raided the home of James Hoskins looking for his brother. Police broke down the bedroom door and an officer fired after mistaking for a gun the T-shirt Hoskins was using to cover his genitals. The bullet ripped through Hoskins stomach small intestine and colon. Hoskins did not learn that the intruder who shot him was a police officer untill he awoke from a coma weeks later. Police arrested Hoskins brother for possessing a small amount of marijuana.

Mississippi 2001. Police stormed a small duplex on a tip from a confidential informant that drugs were inside. In one aparment they apprehended Jamie Smith a known drug dealer and found a substantial amount of marijuana. In the other a 21 year Cory Maye was asleep with his 18 month old daughter. When police kicked down the door, Maye mistook them for criminal intruders and fired his gun. His bullet struck and killed officer Ron Jones, the son of the towns police chief. Maye, who had no prior criminal record and no history of violence was later convicted of capital murder and sentenced to death.


(story with updates)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cory_Maye


The reason I bring all this up is because our country is getting increasingly scary in the way our rights are being stomped on. Recently the supreme court ruled in Hudson v. Michigan that evidence seized in an illegal raid can be used against a defendant at trial, even if police had disregarded the requirement to knock and identify themselves before entering. Taking away the only deterrent for conducting illegal raids the Gestapo’s activities will more than likely increase. This is likely to exacerbate an already unsettling trend. the rise of paramilitary tactics in police departments across America.


SWAT teams were once used only in rare emergency situations such as hostage takings or bank robberies; now they’re used most commonly to serve drug warrants. SWAT raids are also often conducted on tips from confidential informants who are notoriously unreliable.

You know...I almost did not even want to post about this...because I thought ...well if the police can conduct an illegal raid on a "anonymous tip"(that they could forge)...kill me by "accident"...who wouldnt believe the cops if they planted a bit of drugs on me to justify the illegal raid...

[Arcades057]

Welcome to America, Terran. :)

I only recently learned that SOP for pulling someone over for speeding is not taking them out of the vehicle at gunpoint, handcuffing them, and seating them in the squadcar. Used to happen every time I was pulled over. I was once taken out of the car by the SWAT team and a helicopter, LoL... for speeding. :rolleyes:

It started getting bad in the '90s with the raids on Ruby Ridge (over a shotgun) and Waco (because they had a lot guns), but it's not going to get better anytime soon unless we the people do something about it. What? I don't know.

Actually maybe I do, and this is a stretch... Want the police state to relax? Vote in liberal sheriffs. While this seems to me likely to lower the raids on supposed drug houses, I assume it would increase the raids on gun owners. It's a toss-up... either way we're screwed.

[thxleo]

If it were possible I would save up enough money and move to a country where I did not have to be so terrified of my own government….it seems like though a place like that doesn’t exist….

My home town…
Fairfax, VA 2006. A swat team apprehended Sal Culosi, a local optometrist accused of betting on sports with an undercover detective. As Culosi came out to meet the officer to pay a debt the SWAT team descended. One officer’s gun apparently discharged accidentally hitting Culosi in the chest and killing him instantly. Culosi had no prior criminal record and no history of violence. Police found no weapons in his home. A Fairfax police department spokesman told the Washington post the department serves most of its warrants with a SWAT team, even for nonviolent crimes.
(This particular case seems even worse as it appears the detective influenced the victim into betting more and more until it was actually a crime…before Culosi met the detective he made occasional 50$ bets)

related article http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,193652,00.html


Sunrise Florida 2005. A SWAT team raided the home of Anthony Diotaiuto a bartender and part-time student. Police say the team was necessary because Diotaiuto owned a legal, and licensed and registered handgun. Diotaiuto had no history of violence and one prior conviction for marijuana possession as a minor. Police say that as they raided the home, Diotaiuto met them in the bedroom with a gun and they opened fire. His bullet-riddled body was found in a closet. Policed discovered only two ounces of marijuana. Some sources indicate that the SWAT team did not identify themselves as police officers.

Omao Hawaii 2005. Police mistakenly borke into the residence of Sharon and William McCulley on a drug raid. The McCulleys home with their grandchildren at the time were thrown to the ground at gun point. William McCulley who uses a walker and has an implanted device to deliver electrical shocks to his spine to relieve pain, began flopping around on the floor. (They luckily got 100k for their trauma)…

Maryland 2005. A SWAT team in Baltimore County descended on the home of Cheryl Lynn Noel at 5am after finding marijuana seeds in the familys trash. When officers entered Noel’s second floor bedroom, the middle age woman sat upright in her bed frightened holding a handgun (owned legally). A SWAT officer fired twice from behind a bullet proof shield, hitting Noel in the chest, then fired a third shot at close range. Noel died at the scene. Friends and acquaintances described Noel as a person who ran a bible study group on her lunch breaks. Research has turned up more than three dozen cases in which wholly innocent people have been killed in paramilitary raids.

http://www.examiner.com/a-210987~Family_of_slain_Dundalk_woman_sues_Baltimor e_County_police.html

Pennsylvania 2004 Police raided the home of James Hoskins looking for his brother. Police broke down the bedroom door and an officer fired after mistaking for a gun the T-shirt Hoskins was using to cover his genitals. The bullet ripped through Hoskins stomach small intestine and colon. Hoskins did not learn that the intruder who shot him was a police officer untill he awoke from a coma weeks later. Police arrested Hoskins brother for possessing a small amount of marijuana.

Mississippi 2001. Police stormed a small duplex on a tip from a confidential informant that drugs were inside. In one aparment they apprehended Jamie Smith a known drug dealer and found a substantial amount of marijuana. In the other a 21 year Cory Maye was asleep with his 18 month old daughter. When police kicked down the door, Maye mistook them for criminal intruders and fired his gun. His bullet struck and killed officer Ron Jones, the son of the towns police chief. Maye, who had no prior criminal record and no history of violence was later convicted of capital murder and sentenced to death.


(story with updates)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cory_Maye


The reason I bring all this up is because our country is getting increasingly scary in the way our rights are being stomped on. Recently the supreme court ruled in Hudson v. Michigan that evidence seized in an illegal raid can be used against a defendant at trial, even if police had disregarded the requirement to knock and identify themselves before entering. Taking away the only deterrent for conducting illegal raids the Gestapo’s activities will more than likely increase. This is likely to exacerbate an already unsettling trend. the rise of paramilitary tactics in police departments across America.


SWAT teams were once used only in rare emergency situations such as hostage takings or bank robberies; now they’re used most commonly to serve drug warrants. SWAT raids are also often conducted on tips from confidential informants who are notoriously unreliable.

You know...I almost did not even want to post about this...because I thought ...well if the police can conduct an illegal raid on a "anonymous tip"(that they could forge)...kill me by "accident"...who wouldnt believe the cops if they planted a bit of drugs on me to justify the illegal raid...


There are 300 million people in the U.S. You just listed a handful of occurences involving a handful of people. That means what you posted is very, very rare. Our country is not scary. The world is scary. If you are so scared of your country and want to move, then save up a few thousand dollars and move to Canada. Most Americans have no idea how good they have it. You sound like that type of person.

[capncnut]

Awful. Truly, truly awful. It really makes you think about life and how much we should treasure it. I don't want to throw in the obvious but it's these firearms...

[Terran]

There are 300 million people in the U.S. You just listed a handful of occurences involving a handful of people. That means what you posted is very, very rare.

Ok maybe you didnt hear this part....


The reason I bring all this up is because our country is getting increasingly scary in the way our rights are being stomped on. Recently the supreme court ruled in Hudson v. Michigan that evidence seized in an illegal raid can be used against a defendant at trial, even if police had disregarded the requirement to knock and identify themselves before entering. Taking away the only deterrent for conducting illegal raids the Gestapo’s activities will more than likely increase. This is likely to exacerbate an already unsettling trend. the rise of paramilitary tactics in police departments across America.
The whole point is not the fact that these events happen...the point is that they essentially just Erased the Fourth Amendment...Protection from unreasonable search and seizure....Performing illegal raids to obtain evidence is the definition of "Unreasonable search and seizure"...

Our country is not scary.
I dunno erasing our Bill of Rights is pretty scary...


There are approximately 40,000 SWAT call outs a year...and that was when the majority of them required warrants...


If you are so scared of your country and want to move, then save up a few thousand dollars and move to Canada. Most Americans have no idea how good they have it. You sound like that type of person.
Im not saying there is a better place than America out there so its not like I have many options...but apparently the typical "If you dont like it move" arguement applies even if the whole world goes 1984.......so whens the next Lunar mission planned....

[thxleo]

Ok maybe you didnt hear this part....


The whole point is not the fact that these events happen...the point is that they essentially just Erased the Fourth Amendment...Protection from unreasonable search and seizure....Performing illegal raids to obtain evidence is the definition of "Unreasonable search and seizure"...

I dunno erasing our Bill of Rights is pretty scary...


There are approximately 40,000 SWAT call outs a year...and that was when the majority of them required warrants...


Im not saying there is a better place than America out there so its not like I have many options...but apparently the typical "If you dont like it move" arguement applies even if the whole world goes 1984.......so whens the next Lunar mission planned....

If there is no place better then why are you talking about wanting to move somewhere else?
Maybe you should contact Richard Branson. You could take a galactic flight to another galaxy!

[Terran]

If there is no place better then why are you talking about wanting to move somewhere else?


Well the reason I said that I thought would be relatively clear...
Total fustration...
People say outrageous things all the time to indicate the level of fustration that they are feeling....
When a bickering married couple threaten to kill each other 99% of the time they do not mean it literally...

So in the same fashion I talked about wanting to move somewhere else because of fustration...

I mean hell what am I supposed to do when the best country in the world starts losing its Bill of Rights... The Fourth Amendment now totally ignored...and The Fifth Amendment totally eroded...



CapnSpaulding: I don't want to throw in the obvious but it's these firearms...
We only got 8 amendments left in our bill of rights from our original 10... I dont want to lose the most important one (since the First Amendment is a "controlled" amendment already).

[thxleo]

Well the reason I said that I thought would be relatively clear...
Total fustration...
People say outrageous things all the time to indicate the level of fustration that they are feeling....
When a bickering married couple threaten to kill each other 99% of the time they do not mean it literally...

So in the same fashion I talked about wanting to move somewhere else because of fustration...

I mean hell what am I supposed to do when the best country in the world starts losing its Bill of Rights... The Fourth Amendment now totally ignored...and The Fifth Amendment totally eroded...



We only got 8 amendments left in our bill of rights... I dont want to lose the most important one.

We are not losing our bill of rights. That is another "outrageous" statement. Relax and realize that we are lucky to be born where we are. Why do so many people want to come here? Because it's a police state that is miserable and sucks?
Stop sounding the alarm that the Keith Olberman's of the world like to do.

[Terran]

We are not losing our bill of rights. That is another "outrageous" statement. Relax and realize that we are lucky to be born where we are.

Could you please explain to me how we did not lose the Fourth Amendment? Protection from unreasonable search and seizure.
When the supreme court ruled in Hudson v. Michigan that evidence seized in an illegal raid can be used against a defendant at trial.

I would think that an illegal raid constitutes as an unreasonable "search"...and you would think that evidence obtained illegally would constitute unreasonable seizure.

[Terran]

After visiting more countries than most people can name, I'll tell you this... no matter how many things are "wrong" with this country, it beats the dog**** out of every other one out there...

...go to canada, it'll cost you a tank of gas to get there. enjoy their fine medical system...

you think citing a few bad end result scenarios tells the whole story? Hmmm, I wonder why so many people running from their piece of crap countries decide to come to America? I mean, we suck so bad, why come here?

Where can we send donations?:lol:

Jeeze man....you just said the same thing Thelexo said and I already responded to this exact post...if you didnt read all the posts in this thread already do so before posting what has already been said...
No biggie though

[thxleo]

Jeeze man....you just said the same thing Thelexo said and I already responded to this exact post...if you didnt read all the posts in this thread already do so before posting what has already been said...
No biggie though


Terran, I'm not trying to start a fight with you. You are one of the more intelligent people who post on here in fact. I'm just disagreeing with your view. I think you are being an alarmist is all I'm saying.

[Terran]

thxleo your right I may be being alarmist...I may be being?...I may be being...?...I may...be...being?....

Ermm do I even speak english?...yeah you get the gist of it....(I just mispelled grammar in another thread with a comment about how bad someones grammar was) :)

Its just one of my pet peeves when a person posts a comment that is identical to one that has already been posted...usually this happens when someone reads the first post and responds without seeing the direction the thread has taken...Its a common thing not a huge deal or anything... Doomonyou said like the same you said and if I had to respond to him I would basically just have to say the same thing that I had already said to you....


Hey wait a minute you never answered my question..! ALARM ! ALARM !... :)

Could you please explain to me how we did not lose the Fourth Amendment? Protection from unreasonable search and seizure.
When the supreme court ruled in Hudson v. Michigan that evidence seized in an illegal raid can be used against a defendant at trial.

I would think that an illegal raid constitutes as an unreasonable "search"...and you would think that evidence obtained illegally would constitute unreasonable seizure.

[Cody]

sh!t im on probation for a little mary jane and by providing my urine for the state is violating one of my amandment rights (i think it goes something like you have the right to not give incriminating evidence against yourself)

BTW

Mississippi 2001. Police stormed a small duplex on a tip from a confidential informant that drugs were inside. In one aparment they apprehended Jamie Smith a known drug dealer and found a substantial amount of marijuana. In the other a 21 year Cory Maye was asleep with his 18 month old daughter. When police kicked down the door, Maye mistook them for criminal intruders and fired his gun. His bullet struck and killed officer Ron Jones, the son of the towns police chief. Maye, who had no prior criminal record and no history of violence was later convicted of capital murder and sentenced to death.

that just pi$$es me off..

[thxleo]

Could you please explain to me how we did not lose the Fourth Amendment? Protection from unreasonable search and seizure.
When the supreme court ruled in Hudson v. Michigan that evidence seized in an illegal raid can be used against a defendant at trial.

I would think that an illegal raid constitutes as an unreasonable "search"...and you would think that evidence obtained illegally would constitute unreasonable seizure.


You are referring to a case about a crackhead who got caught with crack rocks. Who gives a ****? The police didn't knock before they entered. The guy was a criminal and they had a warrant. Do you think they should have given him time to sneak out and get rid of the crack or something? How about this, if you are not doing anything illegal or shady, the chances that you are going to get ****ed with by police is very small. Are you paranoid that cops might barge into your home or something? I can tell you that I don't worry about such things. And if you do, what kind of ****ing life do you have to begin with?
Like I said you are worrying about stuff that most people are too busy living their lives to worry about. You know, like working for a living, paying their bills, raising their kids, etc... So keep sounding those alarm bells. In your mind I'm sure you think we are one step closer to living like 1984. It's total bull**** and you know it.

[capncnut]

sh!t im on probation for a little mary jane and by providing my urine for the state is violating one of my amandment rights

Didn't Tommy Chong provide a solution to this in Next Movie?

[Terran]

You are referring to a case about a crackhead who got caught with crack rocks. Who gives a ****? The police didn't knock before they entered. The guy was a criminal and they had a warrant.

Ok as lame as it sounds we will just have to agree that we disagree....

I think that this decision establishes a horrible precedent. It is of little importance to me what this individual case was about. Im more concerned with how this case will affect future police/swat actions. This is why my original post mentions these other incidences where mistakes are made during aggressive action even when the legal para military procedures are used.

Was the man in that the supreme court case guilty?...99.999999999% guilty.... But... I feel that if we are to maintain a relative free society sometimes sacrafices need to made. When police violate legal procedure to capture an apparent criminal the suspect should to go free if only to insure that the guidelines that maintain our freedoms remain in place. For me this person's guilt is irrelevant and independent to the precedent that allowed the evidence to be used to convict him.




Like I said you are worrying about stuff that most people are too busy living their lives to worry about. You know, like working for a living, paying their bills, raising their kids, etc...
I agree that most people are too busy to worry about something that does not really effect their day to day life...but that doesnt make the threat any less real....Rome did not fall in a day...:D

But your right ...I do need to get a career....:dead:

[p2501]

Excluding TX's rhetoric.......

the Culosi case will more than likely end in an IAB probe of the SQUAT team for unlaw discharge of a weapon. and Culosi's family will win out in a civil suit for a few million. it's piss poor compensation for the fact they off him, but it is what it is.

as for our fourth amendment rights, they've been steadily but slowly erroded since Clitler, Waco and Ruby Ridge proved that. Whereas Bush's efforts on this front are well doccumented and particularly disgusting.


Personly the more confusing issue is the SQUAT team response incidents. under PA law anyone the enters your home without invitation or with violence is fair game for a shoot'em up. but how far will that go, if some one engages a SQUAT team that fails to identify themselves?

[Dtothe3]

but how far will that go, if some one engages a SQUAT team that fails to identify themselves?

Also add in the fact that if you pull in all the SWAT teams statements they will read almost identically, save for grammar and mannerisms, and state quite clealy "Officer Dick loudly shouted 'Police'!"

Very few cops will let "a good cop" fall.

[DjfunkmasterG]

Set up Video camera's in your home. I know it sounds sad, but do it and hide the recording equipment,, then hide a secondary system. See them get out of that one when the sound on the recording shows no one said police.


HA HA HA FU mR. Police Officer?


Aren't you a civil servant, get me a glass of water you pin headed prick in a hat.

[Dtothe3]

Sadly dude, that will be of little consideration to you if you're dead.

All this is, is evidence of a system that's changed as best it can to favour state. It may be extreme to suggest it, but when they say "Who cares, they're criminals" it's just the beginning. All they need to do from there is re-define what a criminal actually is.

[p2501]

Also add in the fact that if you pull in all the SWAT teams statements they will read almost identically, save for grammar and mannerisms, and state quite clealy "Officer Dick loudly shouted 'Police'!"

Very few cops will let "a good cop" fall.

sadly that's a completely accurate depiction of some of the SQUAT mentality i've seen.

reason #237 why i'm glad my apartment is a series of horrifying choke points.


Set up Video camera's in your home. I know it sounds sad, but do it and hide the recording equipment,, then hide a secondary system. See them get out of that one when the sound on the recording shows no one said police.


HA HA HA FU mR. Police Officer?


Aren't you a civil servant, get me a glass of water you pin headed prick in a hat.

PFFT not going to work. truthfully your best best would eb wireless cameras that rtansmit to a base station, but even that can be tracked a located. hence why if you really look into this it's a hopeless fight.

[Tricky]

Dont move to the UK,its getting worse over here,trust me :(

[bassman]

Yep....unreasonable search and seizures suck....believe me. I'm gonna leave it at that before I break into tears.:(

[MikePizzoff]

There are 300 million people in the U.S. You just listed a handful of occurences involving a handful of people. That means what you posted is very, very rare.

Come on, man. Handful of occurences or not, these are still the same police officers that "protect and serve" entire towns/cities. If it happened once it can easily happen again. They should have enough knowledge and training not to do this kind of stuff.

This is a great post, Terran.

[capncnut]

Dont move to the UK,its getting worse over here,trust me :(

Why? I think we got it pretty damn good here compared to other places?

[Terran]

Why? I think we got it pretty damn good here compared to other places?


Your arguement is similiar to ones used for the USA...Essentially the arguement is that the UK/USA is great only when compared to all the other places in the world that are pretty horrible...one hears this logic all the time


*shrugs* "It could be worse"

!!! When did this happen !!!

At what point in time in both the USA and the UK did we begin to justify the loss legal procedure and personal freedoms by comparing ourselves to horrible countries...

We use to be able to say "We are great because of the following ______" but now we say "We are great because we arent as bad as other places"....

What HAPPENED !!! :mad:

[capncnut]

Some people are not even able to open their mouths and utter the words "our country is great because..." they are either dying, starving or diseased before they know how to speak. As long as I am breathing, in good health and having regular sex (okay, not that regular) then I'm okay. I may have my head in the sand but I'm a simple guy! ;)

[kortick]

the bill of rights is in danger

that is an absolute fact

if you dont think so

wait and see....

[capncnut]

the bill of rights is in danger

that is an absolute fact

if you dont think so

wait and see....

(Yoda has left the building!)