Hiroshima

[Neil]

A nurse survives the blast... Dry and thirsty she manages to crawl to the small pool she new was in back of the hospital.

When she gets there she finds a multitude of wounded and thirsty people already there... The first who crawl in, die under the weight of the others who then crawled in and onto them....



Soon after the blast, a mother manages to find the remains of her home. Her six year old child has survived the blast but is trapped in the ruins from the waist up... She cries out to her mother that she cannot breath. The mother tries to free the child, but can not... Slowly the fires approach and after continued attempts to free the child, she has to leave her daughter to burn to death...

The same women is in hospital four days later with her husband. The staff try to take a blood sample from the husband. When removing the needle, the blood fails to stop flowing.... The husband bleeds to death while vomiting dark brown matter...

The wife lays next to him during the hour it takes him to die...



I always find myself with such mixed emotions to Hiroshima... I can understand the arguments for the weapons use, but I find the scientific and lab-rat approach to the blast taints the event almost too much as an experiment under the guise of something else...

However, logic says while the first bomb should have been dropped in an unpopulated zone to demonstrate the weapon I can understand that these weapons were incredibly hard to construct so each was "precious", and also I suspect the powers that be in Japan may have ignored such a demonstration...

It was a most hideous act, which was probably the better of two evils...



Mind you, could Japan have just been left? Was a surrender necessary out of interest? Opinions?

[EvilNed]

Japan had thousands of PoW and committed general genocide in China. Yes, they still had holdings in China. While these lands could probably be liberated fairly easily, Japan also needed to be stopped. Otherwise they would rebuild and go at it again. They, like the germans, demostrated an immense nationalistic pride to the point where they definetly would have used A-Bombs on the americans, given the oppertunity.

On the other hand, an Invasion might have been possible if the US and Soviet attacked from two different points. But even so, the Japanese goverment were so cruel to their citizens. They literally handed out tools to schoolgirls and told them to "aim for the abdomen" of the invading soldiers.

In my personal opinion, war is war. Atrocities are committed. The A-Bombs were one of the worst, but hey. The Japanese goverment were worse if you put all their cruelty together.

[Neil]

I think you are most likely right... Mind you didn't Japan have basically no fuel supplies? Also the people were generally low on food?

[coma]

I think you are most likely right... Mind you didn't Japan have basically no fuel supplies? Also the people were generally low on food?
Yes, they had nothing
My Girls father (they are from Hiroshima) had to decide medicine for his dying father or food for his family. His father died. He was just a teenager when the decision was left up to him.

from what I understand the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima because its a valley and it would contain the blast. Presumably for later study.

Nationalism was certainly strong, but unlike Hitler, their Govt never had an election until after the war so they had no choice either way. My girls point of view is basically the Japanese govt/Military (same thing, Hirohito was a puppet) was asking for it. What did they think would happen attacking a country with almost inexaustable national resources? Before the US occupation they had never been invaded before. At least not with any success.

Hiroshima was a civilian population and other then the valley aspect the only other reason I can think of would be terror.
If I had the choice Die in an invasion (which was the thought at the time, a million US casualties) or fry a city, I may have picked the bomb.

My girl says the teach much about the A Bombings in school, but not much about the war itself. She says it's not out of dismissing it. Quite the opposite. It a deep shame from the often unspoken fact that they were responsible for it. Though the young generation does not agree with that at all, they are more open about the truth.

That said, since the war they have not bothered anybody and it's time to leave them alone. Wars over, the Allies won, in case some of you haven't read. It finished about 60 years ago. All the prepetrators are long dead.


Yes, they still had holdings in China.
On the way out of China, the defeated army took a LOT of grief (and violence) from the Chinese peasents.


However, logic says while the first bomb should have been dropped in an unpopulated zone to demonstrate the weapon I can understand that these weapons were incredibly hard to construct so each was "precious", and also I suspect the powers that be in Japan may have ignored such a demonstration...

It was a most hideous act, which was probably the better of two evils...

Mind you, could Japan have just been left? Was a surrender necessary out of interest? Opinions?
The Allies wanted total surrender with no conditions.
Maybe also Hiroshima/Nagasaki had nothing they wanted to make use of after the war. Heavy Industry etc. Just a guess. Thought hey propbaly bombed it already.

The Allies also firebombed Tokyo and other Cities. I think the Firebombing of Tokyo killed more people, or close to it.

[HLS]

Well i am not brushed up on my history but I feel there is no excuse for dropping the bomb on so many civilians. thinking of it breaks my hart. But then again seeing the devastation of the bomb and what it did to people will perhaps make people think twice before ever using the bomb again. The story you quoted Neil really moved me.

Heidi

[_liam_]

they didn't need to bomb a populated area.
But the likes of the rape of nanking and unit 731 make it hard for me too feel sympathy for japan, as terrible as that sounds.

[DVW5150]

There is a photo of a burned sillouete of the man hanging his belt on a shelf; it is very eerie / disturbing ... The very use of such a weapon wasnt a deterrent , tests were continued in Nevada until 1959 . All the soldiers that were in trenches 3 miles from the "below ground bursts" are dead of cancer . I just hope nobody forgets how horrible a nuclear weapon can be . Also , the 'president' can learn how to pronounce the word nuclear , he says 'NU-CU-LEAR' ... I sincerely pray that we , our children , and future generations never experience a nuke .

[kortick]

what people dont realise is that the use of those
weopons were not to be limited to the two

the standard order was for them to be dropped as they were ready

as soon as they rolled off the line they were to be put on a plane
and dropped on japan

tokyo was one of the next targets

it only was a last minute order from truman
after he got the photos of the damage the bombs caused
that he issued an exectutive order stating no nuclear bombs
could be dropped with out presidential command

the nagasaki bomb went out with out trumans full awareness

read the book

"hiroshima in america" for details you will not find anywhere
on this subject

if not for truman
many more bombs would have been dropped on japan

he stopped it from being a wasteland

it also tells how the scientists who worked on the bombs
were outside vomiting in the bushes after they saw the job
thier creation had done

powerful reading

[deadpunk]

In the end, I think the Allies (or just America if you prefer;)) decided that an extremist show of power is what was needed to end the War.

The impact of that nuclear display lasted for quite a bit. It really wasn't until the recent stirrings in the Middle East that the idea of another world war was even considered.

Terrible, no doubt...but, war is.

[Danny]

war is war, but i dont think any country should have somethign with that kind of explosive power, cus our species aint gonna be around forever and if we leave the planet as an irradiated wasteland then boarders and race wont matter much when everyones dead will they?, plus good look for the animals that gotta survive it.


as for the whole hiroshima thing ,im replying to someone a few posts up, that was the fatman littleboy thing right?, i heard they only had 2 of those bombs and the whole thing was a gambit and they didnt have anymore and it was one big bluff, least thats what we learn over here in history classes, though even nowadays some countrys tweak the truth in history books a fair bit no matter were you are.:shifty:

[Neil]

Hiroshima was a civilian population and other then the valley aspect the only other reason I can think of would be terror.

While generally true, it had a large military school/training camp didn't it?

But it was treated very much an experiment which I find quite sickening... The town was never bombed prior to the nuclear attack to ensure when the bomb was dropped an "accurate experiment" could be carried out...


The story you quoted Neil really moved me.

Heidi

I think the event must have been quite unimaginable... The pain and suffering that one bomb caused from seconds after, till years later...

The survivors were hot and desperately thirsty... Then the black rain began to fall, and the survivors none the wiser opened their mouths and catched every drop they could in their mouths...

[EvilNed]

I did a bit of calculating on this a few weeks ago. Here are my results:

Japan had 10,000 Kamikaze pilots ready to defend their country. But not all of them would be able to operate, of course. Let's say half of them could. 400 allied ships are sunk. 100 man on each ship. 400x100 = 40000. Plus the 5000 suicide bombers. That's 45,000 casualties just there.

The japanese had 600,000 soldiers defending Japan. 300,000 of these were not armed with weapons because they were running out of ammo. But the japanese goverment deployed these troops to defend Japan anyway. Many of these guys were conscripts. Forced to war.

So... Yeah. In the end, the A-Bombs probably claimed alot less lives than an invasion would have.

[Khardis]

A nurse survives the blast... Dry and thirsty she manages to crawl to the small pool she new was in back of the hospital.

When she gets there she finds a multitude of wounded and thirsty people already there... The first who crawl in, die under the weight of the others who then crawled in and onto them....



Soon after the blast, a mother manages to find the remains of her home. Her six year old child has survived the blast but is trapped in the ruins from the waist up... She cries out to her mother that she cannot breath. The mother tries to free the child, but can not... Slowly the fires approach and after continued attempts to free the child, she has to leave her daughter to burn to death...

The same women is in hospital four days later with her husband. The staff try to take a blood sample from the husband. When removing the needle, the blood fails to stop flowing.... The husband bleeds to death while vomiting dark brown matter...

The wife lays next to him during the hour it takes him to die...



I always find myself with such mixed emotions to Hiroshima... I can understand the arguments for the weapons use, but I find the scientific and lab-rat approach to the blast taints the event almost too much as an experiment under the guise of something else...

However, logic says while the first bomb should have been dropped in an unpopulated zone to demonstrate the weapon I can understand that these weapons were incredibly hard to construct so each was "precious", and also I suspect the powers that be in Japan may have ignored such a demonstration...

It was a most hideous act, which was probably the better of two evils...



Mind you, could Japan have just been left? Was a surrender necessary out of interest? Opinions?

Japan wanted t be left, (While holding much of manchuria) they would have simply arose anew in a decade with another yen to conqour. We did it right with the unconditional surrender.

[Arcades057]

Also look up the Dresden bombing. 48 hours worth of incendiary bombing reduced the city to a hole in the ground. The fire was so hot that it created a firestorm within that sucked people into the cities center. Imagine a hurricane made of fire that sucks things into it. The final casualties were impossible to due to the total immolation of most of the victims, but German officials, known for limiting their own casualties in reports, reported the death toll at greater than one hundred thousand.

Before:

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/dres/bw18.jpg


After:

http://timewitnesses.org/images/dresden.jpg


The subject of the nuclear bombings of Japan are often bandied about, but rarely is the bombing of Dresden mentioned. The difference in the attacks to my mind is that of the two Japanese cities bombed, both were contributors ot the war effort in some way; Dresden's contribution was morale. And people.

[coma]

The subject of the nuclear bombings of Japan are often bandied about, but rarely is the bombing of Dresden mentioned. The difference in the attacks to my mind is that of the two Japanese cities bombed, both were contributors ot the war effort in some way; Dresden's contribution was morale. And people.
I hear many different things about the choice of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. From what I understand, their contribution to the war effort was minimal.
I think they were both Terror to motivate suureneder. At least Hiroshima.
Though I believe Dresden was revenge in part. You're right about it not being brought up much. I think that may be because Fat man and Little boy began the Atomic age, whereas Dreseden was just a "regular" War atrocity.
There was a US POW camp there too, with a big POW painted on the roofs, but NAzi's played that trick alot.
Kurt Vonnegut was in that prison and wrote Catch 22 about his experiecne in there and his presence in the Dresden Firebombing. Agreat book that I highly reccomend.

There was so much horrific, evil sh!t, iy's impossible to judge right and wrong. Whats an atrocity, what isn't. In an all out war it seems like you may have to kill everybody to win as fast as possib;e.

[FoodFight]

Vonnegut wrote 'Slaugherhouse 5'. Joseph Heller wrote 'Catch 22'.

[Arcades057]

Good call, Coma. I'll pick them both up.

BTW, I'm not in any way trying to minimize the Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombing. Personally I feel it was a war and we were trying to win it, therefore we acted like monsters.

[coma]

Vonnegut wrote 'Slaugherhouse 5'. Joseph Heller wrote 'Catch 22'.
Whhops/ Your right. Thanks for the correction. Catch 22 is still a good book, war releated but I dont remeber the details. Somrthing about shellshock, I think. Read it 20 yeard ago. Slaughterhouse 5 is the one I meant.


Good call, Coma. I'll pick them both up.

BTW, I'm not in any way trying to minimize the Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombing. Personally I feel it was a war and we were trying to win it, therefore we acted like monsters.
Didnt think you were. We had to win and I think, in the end, Japan and Germany ended up much better off.
In the 70s, when I was a kid when we were getting our asses kicked with imports from them, people said they actually won.

[bassman]

I'm not going to comment on the whole "was Hiroshima a good or bad idea", but on a semi-related subject, I saw a documentary last night that had footage from Cherynoble......ouch. Actually worse than Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined.:eek:

I remembered reading about it in school but never had the full picture in mind until I saw this documentary. Man...it was harsh. Thanks again, History Channel!:skull:

[Khardis]

I hear many different things about the choice of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. From what I understand, their contribution to the war effort was minimal.
I think they were both Terror to motivate suureneder. At least Hiroshima.
Though I believe Dresden was revenge in part. You're right about it not being brought up much. I think that may be because Fat man and Little boy began the Atomic age, whereas Dreseden was just a "regular" War atrocity.
There was a US POW camp there too, with a big POW painted on the roofs, but NAzi's played that trick alot.
Kurt Vonnegut was in that prison and wrote Catch 22 about his experiecne in there and his presence in the Dresden Firebombing. Agreat book that I highly reccomend.

There was so much horrific, evil sh!t, iy's impossible to judge right and wrong. Whats an atrocity, what isn't. In an all out war it seems like you may have to kill everybody to win as fast as possib;e.

I am pretty certain that Hiroshima and Nagasaki werent disjointed form the war, they had a lot of scientists, and military hospitals there.

[Danny]

I'm not going to comment on the whole "was Hiroshima a good or bad idea", but on a semi-related subject, I saw a documentary last night that had footage from Cherynoble......ouch. Actually worse than Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined.:eek:

I remembered reading about it in school but never had the full picture in mind until I saw this documentary. Man...it was harsh. Thanks again, History Channel!:skull:


man that chernobly is a creepy place, i think my mom was there like a few days before it happened, now you see those picks of the abandoned towns with those creepy paintings on the walls of peoples shadows and little kids all around town is like something from silent hill or forbidden siren *lack of a shiver down the spine smiley*:dead:

[Terran]

I'm not going to comment on the whole "was Hiroshima a good or bad idea", but on a semi-related subject, I saw a documentary last night that had footage from Cherynoble......ouch. Actually worse than Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined.:eek:

I remembered reading about it in school but never had the full picture in mind until I saw this documentary. Man...it was harsh. Thanks again, History Channel!:skull:

Have you seen that webpage of that lady who drives her motorcycle through the area of Cherynoble....she cant step of the roads in my areas.... its a pretty interesting website....

http://www.kiddofspeed.com/chernobyl-revisited/imag5.1.jpg

I have ridden all my life and over the years I have owned several different motorbikes. I ended my search for a perfect bike with a big kawasaki ninja, that boasts a mature 147 horse power, some serious bark, is fast as a bullet and comfortable for a long trips. here is more about my motorcycle I travel a lot and one of my favorite destinations leads North from Kiev, towards so called Chernobyl "dead zone", which is 130kms from my home. Why my favorite? Because one can take long rides there on empty roads. The people there all left and nature is blooming. There are beautiful woods and lakes. In places where roads have not been travelled by trucks or army vehicles, they are in the same condition they were 20 years ago - except for an occasional blade of grass or some tree that discovered a crack to spring through. Time does not ruin roads, so they may stay this way until they can be opened to normal traffic again........ a few centuries from now.


The Next Button is kindof small at the bottom of the page...
http://www.kiddofspeed.com/chernobyl-revisited/

[Danny]

dont know about you but the way natures steadily moved back into an area we cant inhabit is kinda cool, those rusty old trucks'll get intertwined with vines and crap as nature re-asserts itself, give ti a century and itll give the phrase "concrete jungle" a new meaning.

reminds me of an old lovecraft tale were a lake creature and a genie are looking around some millenia old ruins that are overgrown and the creature asks the genie the name of the race that lived there and he says "they were called 'man' ".

to quote jurassic park, "life finds a way".

[_liam_]

actually, it was recently revealed that you can live in pripyat, as it was always assumed that the radiation/mortality thing was a steady angle all the way, but it turns out its more of an L shape, and that a small amount of radiation actually hardens your cells to exposure!

i'm sorry about how badly ive put it, ill draw a diagram or something maybe. but yeah, i was like "bull****" the whole way through the documentary but it had rats and stuff that live there and are fine, and most of the program was this guy showing people who were evacuated around this town.

whole flats and schools are left untouched since 1986...you could film an awesome living dead movie there :D

the creepiest place was the public swimming pool...brr

[Tricky]

Heres another link for those of you interested in chernobyl/pripyat :) the link directly takes you to photos of grafitti done by a tag crew there.Some say they desecrated a grave,others see it as art.Im undecided,but i cant deny some of the artwork is actually very good!the rest of the site covers normal photos taken there,it would indeed make a very good living dead setting as its the actual decay of a modern city as it falls to nature
http://chernobyl.in.ua/en/ghost_town_graffiti/1

One thing though,im keen to see a pic of those giant mutant catfish that have been seen near chernobyl!anybody got any links?:)

[Mutineer]

The Imperial Army of Japan were ruthless bastards; they had it coming.

Let us pray no one ever has to see the use of Nuclear Weapons again. Can we imagine the use of Nukes if the United States was not the first (and last and only) to use them ? What if Hitler had realized his goal of developing a Nuclear Weapon ? You'd be sure either the U.S., Russia or the U.K. would be here.

Watch The Fog of War to see how close we came to Nuclear Armegeddon during the Cuban Missle Crisis; and not because we had the nukes; but because Castro had nukes and was crazy enough to use them. :mad:

Scary ****e.

[Danny]

Heres another link for those of you interested in chernobyl/pripyat :) the link directly takes you to photos of grafitti done by a tag crew there.Some say they desecrated a grave,others see it as art.Im undecided,but i cant deny some of the artwork is actually very good!the rest of the site covers normal photos taken there,it would indeed make a very good living dead setting as its the actual decay of a modern city as it falls to nature
http://chernobyl.in.ua/en/ghost_town_graffiti/1

One thing though,im keen to see a pic of those giant mutant catfish that have been seen near chernobyl!anybody got any links?:)


then i dunno how big it could be but a few yers back a local guy found a cat fish bigger than an adult dolphin and tiwce as long in a muddy river near me, so god knows how big a mutant one could be if a natural ones like a cross between a slug and an anaconda.:skull:

http://chernobyl.in.ua/en/ghost_town_graffiti/15

that one was creepy.

[EvilNed]

Watch The Fog of War to see how close we came to Nuclear Armegeddon during the Cuban Missle Crisis; and not because we had the nukes; but because Castro had nukes and was crazy enough to use them. :mad:

No offense, but so far the only goverment crazy enough to use nukes are the US...

[coma]

The Imperial Army of Japan were ruthless bastards; they had it coming.

Let us pray no one ever has to see the use of Nuclear Weapons again. Can we imagine the use of Nukes if the United States was not the first (and last and only) to use them ? What if Hitler had realized his goal of developing a Nuclear Weapon ? You'd be sure either the U.S., Russia or the U.K. would be here.

Watch The Fog of War to see how close we came to Nuclear Armegeddon during the Cuban Missle Crisis; and not because we had the nukes; but because Castro had nukes and was crazy enough to use them. :mad:

Scary ****e.
Far as I understand it was Kruschev, not Castro, who was prepared to Nuke the US. Cuba was just another Cold War proxy like South Vietnam and South Korea. Castro needed the Soviet help to deter Imment inavasion, in his point of view, Justified by The Bay of Pigs invasion and numerous assasination attempts. It was avoided by JFK sending a lettter to Krushchev basically allowing him a way out by suggesting what he might say/ That was prompted by a letter Krushchev sent to JFK where he used a tiny bit of US propgandaish language to subtley indicate he was open to a solution. JFK picked up on that cue , shot a letter back and Kruschev allowed he waepons tobe withdrawn.

[CivilDefense]

A good book at the background goings on in WWII was Richard Overy's book Why the Allies won.

The civilian population had no idea what was going on, just that they had no supplies etc. They suffered.

However, what the Japanese did was absolutely inexcusable, the rape of nanking comes to mind. slavery, starvation and wholesale executions.

If it takes a nuclear weapon to stop that sort of thing, I am afraid it had to be done.

If not just to make sure it never happens again.

[Debbieangel]

Not that I would agree with using the bomb, but, we were fighting on both fronts and I am sure our troops were spread pretty thin.
The Japanese were coming at us with everything they had...The Kamaksi pilots? They werent into surrender.
Then we had Hitler on the other side doing his thing.
After the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagaski pretty much ended the war for USA and Japan its sad that, that had to happen.
I hope the bomb never has to be used again!!!

[Neil]

we were fighting on both fronts

To be perdantic, hadn't the war in europe finished? (3 months)

[Terran]

You mean pedantic right?....

Cause I was like looking it up hoping to add a new vocab word....cause I had never heard of perdantic...


:)

[Debbieangel]

To be perdantic, hadn't the war in europe finished? (3 months)
sorry what does perdantic mean?
I am not sure of timeframe when war with europe was finished but, my point was that the Japanese was that they were relentless in trying to win the war with us!(USA)
Pear Harbor stays fresh in my mind how far they would go in their cause , they were really bent on winning!
I am not a history buff...I do enjoy watching the history channel from time to time but I never remember times and dates!
I wont defend nor could I defend such an awful thing as bombing people out of existence.
I have watched soo many documenteries on WWII I wish I could remember it all its so interesting I would debate all day with you if I could recall it all Neil it would be so much fun.
Do you think the Japanese would have stopped if those bombs were not dropped on them?

[Mutineer]

Far as I understand it was Kruschev, not Castro, who was prepared to Nuke the US. Cuba was just another Cold War proxy like South Vietnam and South Korea. Castro needed the Soviet help to deter Imment inavasion, in his point of view, Justified by The Bay of Pigs invasion and numerous assasination attempts. It was avoided by JFK sending a lettter to Krushchev basically allowing him a way out by suggesting what he might say/ That was prompted by a letter Krushchev sent to JFK where he used a tiny bit of US propgandaish language to subtley indicate he was open to a solution. JFK picked up on that cue , shot a letter back and Kruschev allowed he waepons tobe withdrawn.

With all due respect; that's partly correct (that is the 13 Days version).

Castro reccomended to Kruschev that they use the nuclear missles against the U.S. and when asked if he would have risked total destuction of Cuba; he said of course. :mad:

We are aware of the letters between Kennedy and Kruschev, but I was emphasizing; it was Castro who was the madman among them (Kruschev, Kennedy, McNamara). Castro was ready and willing to bring the temple down if not for the Kennedy administration's handling of the situation.

There were over 90 tactical weapons on the island at that time which the U.S. did not know about.

Run (don't walk) and go get Alex Jones The Fog of War. Brilliantly engaging stuff.

-

* Another interesting note on South Vietnam; the United States viewed the Vietnam War as an extension of the Cold War (as you mention); when in reality it was the North Vietnamese fighting for their own freedoms (This too is covered in the film). This is where Understanding your enemy comes into play.



No offense, but so far the only goverment crazy enough to use nukes are the US...


Our use of the bomb ended the great war; which cost the countries of our planet over 60,000,000 lives.

The bombs cost Japan: 200,000 (Estimate of course)

This is another lesson in the film:

In order to do good, you may have to engage in evil.

Oh, and none taken.

[Terran]

sorry what does perdantic mean?
I am not sure of timeframe when war with europe was finished but, my point was that the Japanese was that they were relentless in trying to win the war with us!(USA)
Pear Harbor stays fresh in my mind how far they would go in their cause , they were really bent on winning!
I am not a history buff...I do enjoy watching the history channel from time to time but I never remember times and dates!
I wont defend nor could I defend such an awful thing as bombing people out of existence.
I have watched soo many documenteries on WWII I wish I could remember it all its so interesting I would debate all day with you if I could recall it all Neil it would be so much fun.
Do you think the Japanese would have stopped if those bombs were not dropped on them?

Im pretty sure he meant pedantic


pe·dan·tic
–adjective 1. ostentatious in one's learning.
2. overly concerned with minute details or formalisms, esp. in teaching.

So like in the context of what he was saying...If he meant pedantic... [he was saying that "To be overly specific the war was already over as Europe was concerned" more to the context of the word pedantic he was correcting your previous statement reguarding "two fronts" because that wasnt the case]


I think this information is accurate .... anyone feel free to find contradictory information...it was a sloppy find...(Wiki but I figured as concrete as something as WW2 the information would be reliable)

So depending on which date you consider the German Surrender was in Early May...and the Japanese mid-late august.......


Admiral Karl Dönitz became leader of the German government after the death of Hitler, but the German war effort quickly disintegrated. German forces in Berlin surrendered the city to Soviet troops on May 2, 1945.

The German forces in Italy surrendered on May 2, 1945, at General Alexander's headquarters, and German forces in northern Germany, Denmark, and the Netherlands surrendered on May 4. The surrender in Italy was preceded by the controversial secret Operation Sunrise in March 1945, during which the Great Britain and the United States were accused by the Soviet Union of trying to reach a separate peace. The German High Command under Generaloberst Alfred Jodl surrendered unconditionally all remaining German forces on May 7 in Rheims, France. The western Allies celebrated "V-E Day" on May 8.

The Soviet Union celebrated "Victory Day" on May 9. Some remnants of German Army Group Center continued resistance until May 11 or May 12 (see Prague Offensive). [3]

The American use of atomic weapons against Japan and the Soviet invasion of Manchukuo prompted Hirohito to bypass the existing government and intervene to end the war. In his radio address to the nation, the Emperor did not mention the entry of the Soviet Union into the war, but in his "Rescript to the soldiers and sailors" of August 17th, ordering them to cease fire and lay down arms, he stressed the relationship between Soviet entrance into the war and his decision to surrender, omitting any mention of the atomic bombs.

The Japanese surrendered on August 14, 1945, or V-J day, signing the Japanese Instrument of Surrender on September 2. The Japanese troops in China formally surrendered to the Chinese on September 9, 1945.

[Debbieangel]

To be perdantic, hadn't the war in europe finished? (3 months)
I stand corrected!! Thank you!

[Arcades057]

The war in Europe had ended a few months before we used the bomb against Japan. We were ready to begin transfering battle-proven divisions from Europe over to the islands to begin the invasion of the Japanese home islands. Any WWII veteran who is questioned about the usage of the bomb is quick to defend it. How many American lives were saved by using it?

Moreover, how many Japanese lives were saved? How many hundreds of thousands may have died in defending their emperor?

Look at it like this, in a modern sense... We bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki killing around 120k to 160,000 people. The war ended midway between the first bombing and the second, if you listen to some accounts. The point of it is, the war was over. The Japanese were beaten and they knew it. Their will to continue the war ebbed away after seeing ONE bomb destroy an entire city, twice. They realized they could give up, while still saving face, as only a madman would continue that war.

Now fast forward to today. How many Iraq civilians have died so far? How many coalition troops? Pick a city, any city. Let's say Sadr City.

http://pao.hood.army.mil/1CD_20thEngr/helping_sadr_city.htm

Going by that site, the city has a population of 2.5 million, give or take. Once we invade Iraq and notice the terrorists will continue the war, fighting amongst the civilians to prohibit our returning fire, we deploy a single ALCM with a small, tactical nuclear warhead against the city center, dropping it right through Muqtada al-Sadr's window. We take away the Maadi Army's will to fight. We order an end to the terrorism in Iraq. It doesn't work? We target a second weapon on Najaf. It WILL work. Why, you ask? Why is this not a totally mad idea that speaks of hatred and malice?

Our enemies in this day and age, an all days and ages, respect strength, not weakness. Whereas some people would consider the ability of diplomacy a strength, those who know anything about force know it's what the weaker side resorts to so they can get something done. Who is the side that constantly resorts to trying to talk out the problem? I don't hear Bin Laden ordering his soldiers not to attack churches and civilians... That would be us.

I know, I know, "I am like, soooo glad you aren't in charge of ANYTHING!" right? Sometimes it pays to think outside the box and try something new, besides giving up and running away like scared little girls.

You feel that feeling in your gut when you think about running away? That's called pride. Everyone has it; not everyone listens to it. We need to use it as a nation, not just us, but England as well.

And I've gone off topic.

[tju1973]

A nurse survives the blast... Dry and thirsty she manages to crawl to the small pool she new was in back of the hospital.

When she gets there she finds a multitude of wounded and thirsty people already there... The first who crawl in, die under the weight of the others who then crawled in and onto them....



Soon after the blast, a mother manages to find the remains of her home. Her six year old child has survived the blast but is trapped in the ruins from the waist up... She cries out to her mother that she cannot breath. The mother tries to free the child, but can not... Slowly the fires approach and after continued attempts to free the child, she has to leave her daughter to burn to death...

The same women is in hospital four days later with her husband. The staff try to take a blood sample from the husband. When removing the needle, the blood fails to stop flowing.... The husband bleeds to death while vomiting dark brown matter...

The wife lays next to him during the hour it takes him to die...



I always find myself with such mixed emotions to Hiroshima... I can understand the arguments for the weapons use, but I find the scientific and lab-rat approach to the blast taints the event almost too much as an experiment under the guise of something else...

However, logic says while the first bomb should have been dropped in an unpopulated zone to demonstrate the weapon I can understand that these weapons were incredibly hard to construct so each was "precious", and also I suspect the powers that be in Japan may have ignored such a demonstration...

It was a most hideous act, which was probably the better of two evils...



Mind you, could Japan have just been left? Was a surrender necessary out of interest? Opinions?

..but by God we finished it. I have said this before--- If you are going to fight, fight to win. Use everything you have to win. Destroy the enemy. Make war so horrible through victory that people will not want to prosecute it again...War to the knife, the knife to the hilt, eh?

That being said, as long as there are two people on this mudball called Earth, then there will be eternal war.

Wars will never end, but hopefully the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki will make civilized nations at least prosecute non nuclear wars-- AND limit them in as much as possible to not involve non combatants.

Most of all, you never want to be on the losing end of a war. Would the US have won WW2 without the A Bombs-- of course.

Would there have been more casualties from an invasion or even a continued blockade and strangulation type naval seige of Nippon? Maybe.

All tha matters is that we won. We won with minimal Allied casualties. I pray for the souls of those innocents that died in the blasts...But face the facts... More innocents -- more people died from the carpet bombing, round the clock raids-- especially the firebombing raids the Allies perfected than Fat Man and Little Boy killed...

To the victors goes the spoils...:(

[Terran]

And I've gone off topic.

Theres a lot in that I would like to respond to...but like you mentioned it was off topic ....so if you want to start a thread reguarding the use of nuclear weapons in the "war against terrorism" I would be willing to address certain issues you bring up..... but any further discussion of that would ruin the topic of this thread....so I hope any other discussion reguarding the nuclear weapons and terrorism war will end after my post so things get back on topic.... The other stuff you said of course would still be okay to discuss.... :D


....Make war so horrible through victory that people will not want to prosecute it again...War to the knife, the knife to the hilt, eh?

That being said, as long as there are two people on this mudball called Earth, then there will be eternal war.



I agree with you in the extent of the logic your using...

War to the Knife, the knife to the hilt....
but
Part of the probelm though nuclear weapons usherd in an era of scientific and military dominance...

It started with Nukes....then tactical missles...stealth bombers...laser guided this and that....automated robotic dead zones...
This technology was concentrated in few counties/powers...

So suddenly any given country has much less human investment in enforcing its will...

So once someone has less human investment any "War" takes on a different meaning...because with less investment you can engage in much more frivolous actions...to bring up a poker analogy... You can bluff your level of commitment....you can throw in lots of power(chips) but you wont go all in because you either didnt really care enough about it to begin with, you werent willing to risk a portion of your power, or are afraid to lose power in the face of close competitors.......



Gah Im getting a bit to drunk...

So to get this post back on direct thread course

Bottom line:
I think that ultimately the Nukes used on Japan make historical sense... even though ridiculously horrible... but any correlation to today is a weakly strewn connection...

[Danny]

i think this thread is honestly making people a little nuts.:rockbrow:

[Terran]

i think this thread is honestly making people a little nuts.:rockbrow:

Thats what the evil gremlin in the corner of my room has been screaming at me for weeks about....

[coma]

i think this thread is honestly making people a little nuts.:rockbrow:
I also would like to increase my post count with unrelated asides:evil::moon:


...Castro reccomended to Kruschev that they use the nuclear missles against the U.S. and when asked if he would have risked total destuction of Cuba; he said of course. ...Castro was ready and willing to bring the temple down if not for the Kennedy administration's handling of the situation.
I would like to know the source of that information. Not saying it's not true, but Castro probably wouldn't admit that (destryong Cuba to save it).

Run (don't walk) and go get Alex Jones The Fog of War. Brilliantly engaging stuff.
Alex Jones is interesting but a little too much Illumanati for me. Much sounds convincing but much is also a little whacked out for me. Frankly, I don't believe anyone anymore. But I might check out the fog of war anyway.


Another interesting note on South Vietnam; the United States viewed the Vietnam War as an extension of the Cold War (as you mention); when in reality it was the North Vietnamese fighting for their own freedoms (This too is covered in the film). This is where Understanding your enemy comes into play.
Ho Chi Minh petioned the UN repeatedly to let him join to be recognized. He was denied/ignored. His brand of communism was very unlike Soviet and China.
The Gov claimed communism was monolithic so therefore Vietnam and China would be allies. Thats utterly stupid on the face because they expelled France, eventually the US AND CHINA. (not tom mention China and UUSR hated each other) They had no kind of friendly relationship with China.
Their brand of Communism was based on eradication of Foreign exploitation and National Unity. Not collective farming and imperialist expansion. Its just like "they hate our frredoms". Pay no attention to their actual reason and just paste over something convienient.

So the reason for Vietnam war was a proxy war like Korea was actually a war against China. But a Proxy against what? They had no allies, except maybe Laos and that was only in spirit and border infiltration by The Viet Minh.

The parallels of that conflct and the current are numerous;
Manufactured rationale (WMDs-Gulf of Tonkin)
Persistence in tactics/Ideology
Fighting them there so we dont fight them here aka destrying a country to fight someone else.


Do you think the Japanese would have stopped if those bombs were not dropped on them?
There was some earlir discussion on that, but the answer usually is yes. They had no resources. Their oil was depleated. The national will was gone. Civilians were in terror. The Army was scattered in disarray (POW, all over the pacific and China/Indochina). The main concern was mass casulties on The US side and the probable mass scale killin of civilians ecspecially if compelled to fight (Women, Small children, the very old)

[Terran]

There was some earlir discussion on that, but the answer usually is yes. They had no resources. Their oil was depleated. The national will was gone. Civilians were in terror. The Army was scattered in disarray (POW, all over the pacific and China/Indochina). The main concern was mass casulties on The US side and the probable mass scale killin of civilians ecspecially if compelled to fight (Women, Small children, the very old)

Grave of the Fireflies is an awsome movie....horribly sad...
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00070Q84U.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg


Plot Outline A tragic film covering a young boy and his little sister's struggle to survive in Japan during World War II.

All stuff before nukeage.... really awsome movie...

[Mutineer]

I would like to know the source of that information. Not saying it's not true, but Castro probably wouldn't admit that (destryong Cuba to save it).

The source was Robert McNamara speaking regarding a meeting they had many years later (1991 I think) and the source was directly from the Cat's mouth; Castro himself.


Alex Jones is interesting but a little too much Illumanati for me. Much sounds convincing but much is also a little whacked out for me. Frankly, I don't believe anyone anymore. But I might check out the fog of war anyway.

I apologize; I meant Errol Morris. Why I said Alex jones is a mystery (My brain lately :o ).

-

On Vietnam

I think you may be missing my point. What you have stated is more or less correct (If not a bit flamboyant) in the eyes of the West. In the eyes of North Vietnam, that couldn't be farther from the truth.

N Vietnam could have given a rats ass about our reasons for war. They simply wanted their independence. We could sing and dance all day long about why we were fighting the war. That was my point; understanding the enemy. We had no idea why North Vietnam was fighting other than what we perceived as a threat and what we assumed an extension of the U.S.S.R.

It wasn't an extension; it was our own paranoia

[Danny]

Grave of the Fireflies is an awsome movie....horribly sad...
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00070Q84U.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg



All stuff before nukeage.... really awsome movie...

it was sad, but the same level of sad as optimus prime dying in the transformers movie, now the end to the anime film metroplois, that was a tear jerker if ever i saw one.

[CivilDefense]

Wheres the cute anime movie about this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre)

Its pretty sad too. They killed as many people as the bomb. it was only really different in the use of swords, forced incest, rape, and all those old people and babies chopped up with swords.

Granted it wasnt the civilian populations fault, but the japanese regime had to go, by whatever means possible.

I guess what bugs me is the modern japanese denial that any of these atrocities had been committed. I just dont want to hear you whine about your poor civilians when your government was putting babies to the sword. It just makes me not want to be an apologist.

[coma]

The source was Robert McNamara speaking regarding a meeting they had many years later (1991 I think) and the source was directly from the Cat's mouth; Castro himself.
I apologize; I meant Errol Morris. Why I said Alex jones is a mystery (My brain lately :o ).
Thanks for the Castro bit. I am a student of Vietnam era conflict history (1954-1974) and I will dfeinately look into that.also thanks for the correct name. I was looking at prison planet and going Huh?!?!


On Vietnam
I think you may be missing my point. What you have stated is more or less correct (If not a bit flamboyant) in the eyes of the West. In the eyes of North Vietnam, that couldn't be farther from the truth.
N Vietnam could have given a rats ass about our reasons for war. They simply wanted their independence. We could sing and dance all day long about why we were fighting the war. That was my point; understanding the enemy. We had no idea why North Vietnam was fighting other than what we perceived as a threat and what we assumed an extension of the U.S.S.R.

It wasn't an extension; it was our own paranoia
I got your point , I was just expanding on the detail a little bit. N Vietnam fought for freedom for Imperialist exploitation (which they not only always did, but always WON), The US fought for nebulous reasons that didnt actually exist. Pretty much the same thing you just said.
I think it was MacNamara who said, in refernece to the war, that "revolutions never work" What a dumass considering the American revolution stemming from the French revolution.
It was veiwed as a war to stop Monolithic Communism which never existed and the was was an extension of that ideological fantasy. BAsically they created an ideology and forced the world into that box, which is happening today.

If some of these facts occasionally get a little vague its because the bulk of my research was done in college 20 years and 20,000 doobies ago:)


it was sad, but the same level of sad as optimus prime dying in the transformers movie, now the end to the anime film metroplois, that was a tear jerker if ever i saw one.
How is something based on REALITY the same in any respect to f**king transformers?!?!?
Starving Children dying of Malnuttrition=horrible
Transformers=Toys.
No offense, you need to put down the gameboy and go outside.:rolleyes:


Theres a manga called Barefoot Gen that is about the authors experiences in the bombing of Hiroshima, including the tiome before the bombing. Its extremely hardcore. It tells about his father (who died in the blast) resistance to the militarism and how he repeatedly got drageed into the police station to get a severe asskicking and the subsequent shunning and abuse from many nationalist town people. The parts witht the struggle to survive, the rivers choked with burnt bodies are unbelievable. Hard to believe a comic could be so tragic, but it is.

[Mutineer]

............. and 20,000 doobies ago:)


:lol: :thumbsup:

[Marie]

>I think it was MacNamara who said, in refernece to the war, that "revolutions never work" What a dumass considering the American revolution stemming from the French revolution.<

Other way 'round, the American revolution came first.

M_

[coma]

>I think it was MacNamara who said, in refernece to the war, that "revolutions never work" What a dumass considering the American revolution stemming from the French revolution.<

Other way 'round, the American revolution came first.

M_
Whoops. Thining of something else.:confused::o
Im gonna quit while Im ahead:)

Okay to ammend "what a dumass considering the American revolution, creating the Govt he was working for"
Better?