1200-1500 for camera, what are my options?

[Excessium]

Hello, I've been a "reader" for a few months now. I read this section from time to time. So hi everyone.

Ok here is my question. I have about 1200-1500 to spend on a camera. I've been eyeing the Canon Xl1/xl1s. I was wondering if any of you that have been working with cameras could give me any input with my decision.
Like what's the diff between the 2 cameras or is there anything else I should be looking at. I understand 28 Days Later was shot on one of the two cameras?

It's just that I've had these ideas for movies,and anything related to zombie genre, in my head since I was about 12. I'm 29 now. Ever since I saw dawn, I've had an obession with the genre. I'm mean I had nightmares almost every night from the ages of 9-12 about the damn things. I am working on a screenplay atm. I'm tired of running zombies. The genre was based on horror, not action and kicking ass. It seems like Zombies are target practice for plastic molded characters who say "cool" one liners like: "it's a bad day to be a zombie." I'm simply tired of that ****.

But anyhow, the cameras...yeah. Any advice would be a great benefit to me.
Thanks in advance.

[DjfunkmasterG]

Basically they're useless right now. I mean they will do okay for a starter camera, but with models shooting 24fps that is what everyone is expecting when you shoot a indie project.

The XL1S has much better image control than the XL1. I have seen XL1's go on ebay for about $1600. The XL1S is still getting above $2K

If you can squeeze another $500 out of your pocket you should try and get a Panasonic DVX-100. Used they run about $1600-$2100

[Danny]

yeah the xl1s's and xl2's dont get off places like ebay for less than 2 grand and i havent seen them cheaper than £2300

[7734]

dude, whatever you do...
DO NOT BUY USED cameras off ebay. Don't listen to how well maintained or barely used they are. The truth is that digital cameras will always give you problems; yes, you can delay greatly any eventual breakdown with proper care (Dry environments!!!, median temps, cleaner DV's). But if you can't send a camera back to the shop and have them fix it under warranty, chances are you will not have the cash to pay for very spendy repairs. Then you got a lump.

So basically, it is worth it to buy new with warranty.

As far as what camera you get, I don't believe it possible to buy an XL2 for anything under $3800. With that budget, I would suggest a Canon GL2 (It's what I have). Yes, if you keep it on auto everything you shoot will look like a home movie, but that's why thay got manual control.

My theory is that to make the footage look good, you need to understand your focus function. If you don't know how to use it, everything will look flat; but if right focus, you can give footage a good depth of vision, thereby making it look more like a series of moving pictures, and there is your film.

There's also editing software. Bearshare some Sony Vegas and play around with it, but for a release you may actually want to buy software.

Any other thoughts?

[DjfunkmasterG]

Actually don't listen to 7734. All the cameras that shot DEADLANDS, my film, were purchased off eBay used. The DVX100 I used work flawlessly, I bought it from eBay seller "electronixmax". When you buy through him you can also buy 2 year service warranties. :)

[MinionZombie]

All I can say is the Panasonic DVX100B is a friggin' excellent camera, it cost me £2000, but it was worth every penny. I've turned into such a DVX nerd and everytime I see one on TV in the corner of the screen of some TV show or the news I jump up screaming "DVX!! DVX!!" ... *ahem*

The DVX is a quality product, it really is. If you can stretch to that, go for that, because it's brilliant.

When buying used (although I didn't, I wanted a brand new one), just be careful, make sure you're buying from a reputable dealer and have the whole guarantee jobby.

[Excessium]

Thanks for the replys thus far.

As far as filming a zombie movie goes: My plan was to shoot around 4 short films before I start to think about shooting any zombie film. In the past 3 months I've read several books about anything film making. The book that inspired me the most would have to be Robert Rodriquez's book. After I read it, I went out and bought El Mariachi(the indy flick he shot/cut/directed/layed down audio) and was amazed with the quality of the movie.

What I'm looking for is a starter camera. Something I can work with on my own and learn from.

DJ: I was looking at the stuff Electronicmax was selling and thinking about going that route. /sigh. It's going to take alot wife factioning to allow me to spend 2k atm. She believes in my ideas, but she's urging me in the hand held camera direction. Where as I want something that will give me a "broader view".

Fyi: The digital editing question is coming next. :D

[DjfunkmasterG]

Thanks for the replys thus far.

As far as filming a zombie movie goes: My plan was to shoot around 4 short films before I start to think about shooting any zombie film. In the past 3 months I've read several books about anything film making. The book that inspired me the most would have to be Robert Rodriquez's book. After I read it, I went out and bought El Mariachi(the indy flick he shot/cut/directed/layed down audio) and was amazed with the quality of the movie.

What I'm looking for is a starter camera. Something I can work with on my own and learn from.

DJ: I was looking at the stuff Electronicmax was selling and thinking about going that route. /sigh. It's going to take alot wife factioning to allow me to spend 2k atm. She believes in my ideas, but she's urging me in the hand held camera direction. Where as I want something that will give me a "broader view".

Fyi: The digital editing question is coming next. :D

Stay away from anything cheap. you need a camera that has 3ccd's and can at least do 30fps. You could go the route of a Panasonic DVC-80 or a CANON GL2. I would also recommend the Sony VX2100, but with the VX and DVC they are native 4:3 cameras (The XV2100 is 16:9 in non progressive mode) whereas the Canon GL2 is 16:9 native all around.

As stated to get close to the film look you should get something that handles 30fps then use Sony Vegas to de-interlace the hell out of the image and then export the finished file at 23/97 fps for that total film look.

[Excessium]

Thanks again bro.

[Mutineer]

I shoot with the DVX100-24p as well and cannot fathom using another camera in this price range.

24p is the way too go

-

If you just can't wing the extra duckets for the camera; try to at least get the XL1 for using it's Frame Mode


Fyi: The digital editing question is coming next.

I use Vegas 6 and love it. Super intuitive and kicks ass. Being on a PC, I would not use anything else personally.

Mac user's ? Final Cut of course.


... use Sony Vegas to de-interlace the hell out of the image and then export the finished file at 23/97 fps for that total film look.

Uuucckk. It's better than nothing I suppose but you'll lose half your resolution deinterlacing. At least then you can say you shot Super 8

:D :D

[7734]

You'll regret it!!! Listening to me will cause your camera lens to cloud over and tape deck to sizzle into non warrantied hell.

Bah... wherever you go spend money, just save some aside for a warranty.

Onto another question. Why shoot interlaced footage just to de-interlace it on PC? I will try it (am fairly new to editing software) but it seems like the PC would do a better job at simply recording. I think my GL2's frame mode (fake 24p, right?) gives a hell of a feel (much like 28L, created with the GL2's bigger badder brother, the XL2).

Thoughts?

[Danny]

Actually don't listen to 7734. All the cameras that shot DEADLANDS, my film, were purchased off eBay used. The DVX100 I used work flawlessly, I bought it from eBay seller "electronixmax". When you buy through him you can also buy 2 year service warranties. :)

yeah ive got 2 camcorders off ebay and both were the ones on display in shops like comet or pc world and it got sent off to canon to be refurbished and then sold online at half the price both with warrantys and reciepts of the origional purchase, and i havent had any problems from either.

cept the one i fell in a pool with but thats beside the point:lol:

[Mutineer]

You'll regret it!!! Listening to me will cause your camera lens to cloud over and tape deck to sizzle into non warrantied hell.

Bah... wherever you go spend money, just save some aside for a warranty.

Onto another question. Why shoot interlaced footage just to de-interlace it on PC? I will try it (am fairly new to editing software) but it seems like the PC would do a better job at simply recording. I think my GL2's frame mode (fake 24p, right?) gives a hell of a feel (much like 28L, created with the GL2's bigger badder brother, the XL2).

Thoughts?

I have seen some nice work from the GL2. I cannot stand the look of the XL2; but then again, I'm kind of a DVX100 snob.

It comes down to the magician behind the camera

It sounds like, for this guy, either choice would be the perfect entry level solution

[DjfunkmasterG]

You'll regret it!!! Listening to me will cause your camera lens to cloud over and tape deck to sizzle into non warrantied hell.

Bah... wherever you go spend money, just save some aside for a warranty.

Onto another question. Why shoot interlaced footage just to de-interlace it on PC? I will try it (am fairly new to editing software) but it seems like the PC would do a better job at simply recording. I think my GL2's frame mode (fake 24p, right?) gives a hell of a feel (much like 28L, created with the GL2's bigger badder brother, the XL2).

Thoughts?

GL2 frame mode is 29.97 frames per second. Shooting interlace allows you to play with the gain on a DVX100. When you shoot 24P in a DVX100 you cannot adjust gain properties

[Excessium]

All interesting reads guys, keep the comments coming. I am learning plenty.

BTW anyone know what camera 28 days later was shot with? I love the feel of the movie. It wasn't polished, it was rough. I know it was shot on DV, but does anyone know what camera was used?

[7734]

28Days later on Canon XL2

[Mutineer]

No no no

Xl1

http://www.theasc.com/magazine/july03/sub/index.html

[7734]

well, I read somewhere else it was XL2. Maybe both?
Either way, from what I understand the GL2 is a better bang for the buck for a novice filmmaker; the main difference is the interchangeable lens, and some have told me the XL series is only about bulk. You buy a bigger camera and think you get a better one. But the GL2 has a great zoom and a thread-on wide angle attachment (~$250).

[Mutineer]

Just an Xl1

The XL2 was not relaesed

-

The Gl2 is not a bad a bang for a beginner

in fact; anything more may be overkill

[DjfunkmasterG]

Just an Xl1

The XL2 was not relaesed

-

The Gl2 is not a bad a bang for a beginner

in fact; anything more may be overkill


You're both wrong. :p Canon XL1s and that will was shot interlaced and de-interlaced in post. If I am correct I believe it was edited on AVID.

[Mutineer]

You're both wrong. :p Canon XL1s and that will was shot interlaced and de-interlaced in post. If I am correct I believe it was edited on AVID.

Yes

I am aware it was both versions used.

The Xl1s is virtually the same camera as the XL1; like literally

It's like saying the DVX100 as oppossed to the DVX100A.

So put your tongue back in your mouth before you hurt yourself.

Semantics biatch.

[DjfunkmasterG]

Yes

I am aware it was both versions used.

The Xl1s is virtually the same camera as the XL1; like literally

It's like saying the DVX100 as oppossed to the DVX100A.

So put your tongue back in your mouth before you hurt yourself.

Semantics biatch.

Actually they're not the same. Had they been the same an extra letter or number would not have been added to the camera. They revised a number of features beteen the XL1 and XL1s including better image control and higher audio level response.

[Mutineer]

You're funny DJ

I am all too aware of the minor differences of the two. You're missing the point and trying too hard to make one.

[MinionZombie]

Oh quit with the grumpily grumpily groo people, it's friggin' Christmas! :eek:

[7734]

what's xmas if you can't grumpily fight over barely warm chunkies of human flesh.

BTW I miss the old forum where you could easily see all threads and responses. But I do like this filmmaker's specialty forum. Merry Xmas you grumpy bastiches.

[DjfunkmasterG]

You're funny DJ

I am all too aware of the minor differences of the two. You're missing the point and trying too hard to make one.


The only point I am trying to make is that it would be a waste for him to buy and XL1 or an XL1S. The technology is outdated. If he wants to make a film and have it look decent he should spend the extra $500 and buy a used DVX100.

lets also not forget the lens issues with the XL1 series cameras. They had a lot of drift in focus.

[MinionZombie]

Ach, that damn focus drift ... that's what turned me off a Sony camera I was checking out and oh-so f*cking in love with a few months back, :lol: ... then I forgot about it and pursued the DVX100B ... it took friggin' weeks for friggin' Panasonic to ship out new stock, but I waited ... and waited ... and then waited an ickle bit more ... and then one day we got the call ... it's a boy! *ahem*, I mean - it's in stock!

We rushed down to Malvern, ran into the shop, and promptly laid down a bunch-o-bones for my brand new camera rig with all the necessary trimmings ... oh that was a good day. I think my Gran would be chuffed I spent my inheritence on something worthwhile that I can get a lot of use out of, something that can really help me out and help me up to the next level. :)

(I'm getting less grumpily grumpily groo ... I'm starting to wake up now *yawns ... stretches ... looks at Clerks 2 DVD fondly*)

[7734]

Randall was right when he said there was only ONE TRILOGY, but it sure as bum****ing hell isn't Star Warts.

[DjfunkmasterG]

Randall was right when he said there was only ONE TRILOGY, but it sure as bum****ing hell isn't Star Warts.

Thats for sure... We all know it is Die Hard 1 though 3 :D

[MinionZombie]

lol ... just imagine a fight between Randall, that Rings nerd guy, and one of us - all in a fight over which is the best trilogy ... mind you, GAR's is 4 movies long now. :D But then again ... Star Wars is 6 movies long.

[DjfunkmasterG]

lol ... just imagine a fight between Randall, that Rings nerd guy, and one of us - all in a fight over which is the best trilogy ... mind you, GAR's is 4 movies long now. :D But then again ... Star Wars is 6 movies long.

There is only one return and it is not of the king or jedi, it is of the LIVING DEAD! :lol:

[MinionZombie]

:lol:

I've just been watching the deleted scenes, I'd love to see a mix of Clerks and zombies, like a zombie version of the Death Star scene from the first film. :D

lol, and I've just noticed this was my 4,337th post. :)

[Mutineer]

If he wants to make a film and have it look decent he should spend the extra $500 and buy a used DVX100.


It's what I use. Why anyone would use another camera (at that price) is a mystery.

[DjfunkmasterG]

bingo. it is a fantastic camera. I am getting an HXV200 because A. it is Hi-Def and B its now 16:9 native. DEADLANDS 2 will be shot with this camera. I was going to do 16mm but screw it I can do the film for about $30,000 with that camera. If I use 16mm you're talking 50-60K minimum to shoot the 116 page script.

[Mister Chrome]

I don't know where you live, but you should see if there are any local public access cable facilities in your area. If there are, see if they offer classes (usually free) to become certified access producers. Once you take their classes, you basically have unlimited access to their equipment to produce programming for the public access channel.

Sounds too good to be true? Well, it is a fact - you can check out www.accesschannel.com as an example in the Chicago area, or visit www.openchannel.se to get links to public access facilities all over the world.

That said, if the cable access thing isn't available in your area, try your local library. Oftentimes, the library has a video camera that can be used by patrons.

Finally, see if the local high school or college has any video equipment and students who would be interested in working on your project. If you write a decent proposal, you might get free equipment AND free students for your crew.

I am advising you on all of these things for a single reason: you should learn the CRAFT of video production (not filmmaking, since that is actually incorrect terminology unless you are shooting on FILM) before you buy a camera. Best of all, you should learn video production for FREE before paying for anything.

If I can be of any other assistance, feel free to ask.

Good luck!

M.C.

[Mutineer]

bingo. it is a fantastic camera. I am getting an HXV200 because A. it is Hi-Def and B its now 16:9 native. DEADLANDS 2 will be shot with this camera. I was going to do 16mm but screw it I can do the film for about $30,000 with that camera. If I use 16mm you're talking 50-60K minimum to shoot the 116 page script.

Nice !

I recently did a short with a borrowed HVX; beautiful footy !

[Excessium]

Thank you for the advice M.C.

I live in Columbus, Ohio atm so I'm sure they have some sort of public access. Robert Rodriguez used public access facilities a lot. He even had full access to the place at off hours.

Thanks to everyone for their advice, you guys are great and helpful to the extreme.

On Christmas I recieved a $500 gift card from best buy. I going to buy a Panasonic Pv-GS500.

I stated earlier that I wasn't ready to shot a feature yet. My plan is to make short movies until I am comfortable with Editing, Shooting, Directing and scoring. ATM I have a short story scripted, and about 5 treatments-all have character background already established.

I have been doing some heavy reading about lighting, camera work and sound. It's kinda overwhelming learning the terminology but I'm doing fine.

When I get to the point where I'm ready to shot my horror movie, I will have a pretty good understanding of what I will need. I'm pretty excited about my zombie script. My Focus is to make a movie that doesn't depend on "runners" so I could take a short cut when creating tension. I'm trying to be as creative as possible in order to make the slower moving zombie something to be feared again. It's not going to be about making a stand against zombies and killing as many as possible. It's going to be about survival, about saving those things that are dearest to you in a time of hell. I'll post it here once I have it copyrighted-see if I can atract any experienced cinamatographers.

Thats about all, have fun and thanks again.

[Wahsleety]

Thank you for the advice M.C.

I live in Columbus, Ohio atm so I'm sure they have some sort of public access. Robert Rodriguez used public access facilities a lot. He even had full access to the place at off hours.

Thanks to everyone for their advice, you guys are great and helpful to the extreme.

On Christmas I recieved a $500 gift card from best buy. I going to buy a Panasonic Pv-GS500.

I stated earlier that I wasn't ready to shot a feature yet. My plan is to make short movies until I am comfortable with Editing, Shooting, Directing and scoring. ATM I have a short story scripted, and about 5 treatments-all have character background already established.

I have been doing some heavy reading about lighting, camera work and sound. It's kinda overwhelming learning the terminology but I'm doing fine.

When I get to the point where I'm ready to shot my horror movie, I will have a pretty good understanding of what I will need. I'm pretty excited about my zombie script. My Focus is to make a movie that doesn't depend on "runners" so I could take a short cut when creating tension. I'm trying to be as creative as possible in order to make the slower moving zombie something to be feared again. It's not going to be about making a stand against zombies and killing as many as possible. It's going to be about survival, about saving those things that are dearest to you in a time of hell. I'll post it here once I have it copyrighted-see if I can atract any experienced cinamatographers.

Thats about all, have fun and thanks again.


I've had the Pv-GS500 for a few weeks now and i'm quite pleased with the results! It's a good deal.

[Excessium]

Aye, I wanted the 400, but they sell for about 1400 new plus they are discontinued. I've read about a thousand reviews about the GS500 and all seem to agree that it's the premier camera under $1000 camera. And the manual features on it are the best in that range. I'll probably pick up a wide angle lense and some filters right away. I think after all that I will be good to go and start filming my first short.

edited for forgetting words...

[TheEnd]

All of those cameras are great and dandy but are not the best choice for that price....

What you want is a Pal HDR-HC1 which is a HDR-HC1E.....why....

1. This camera shoots 1080i with mpeg 2 compression

2. This camera shoots 50i or 25 fps which means you de interlace in post and post it to a 24P time line, yealding you the 24P you want.

3. Because of the fact it is HD and deinterlace from 1080I you are going to yeald maxium resoltion close to 720P at 24P.

4. This camera being HD is native widescreen which most movie buffs want aka us.

5. throw an anamorphic 16:9 lens on it and adjust for in post and you get cinescope 2.35 to 1 or better.

6. it will yeald the best image qauilty possiable because you can NOT compare 3ccd SD to single CMOS HD.

7. shoting HD no mater the format is a better choice to future proof then choseing SD in the end SD is pretty much blur-o-vision once you see the differnace on a TV, SD or HD. No mater what people say HD down convereted to SD still looks FAR better then the best SD at SD. 95% percent of the time the people who will tell you this have and SD camera.

8. if you got questions for me shoot me an e-mail lucky you i got a treo so i respond fast. reactor88@r88s.com

Enjoy.

on another note if anyone knows how to get ahold of misterchrome aka bill PLEASE e-mail me.

Peace,
-Darren

[DjfunkmasterG]

But it is a Sony and unless the letters VX2000, VX2100 or F950 appear after it they're mostly junk. In the high def realm on the lower budget scales you either go Canon XL-h1 or HVX200 from Panasonic.

My DP told me a lot of things about most cameras, in what to look for especially regarding image control. Now all I do is read about the features these cameras can do and I watch a lot of test footage from guys on the HI-Def forums.

[TheEnd]

You just listed two SD sonys and the F950 which i think you are talking about the HDW-F950 aka 80G Camera. First off the two sonys you talked about are nice sure but NOT HD. regardless again of everything thats out there in this PRICE range you will find that the HDR-HC1E will get you the best results...unless you WANT, poor image resolution and want video aka 60i. Also none of that post 24P stuff works that good btw...i've tested all of it. I will also say this any HD camera in this price range is going to be the ticket. I say the HC1E because of all the cameras out there it has the most manual controls.
The others who cares about manual if it looks like your shooting a home movie. I am in Chicago so if people are wondering..i own this camera you can check it out if you like to see for yourself.

Peace,
-Darren

You just listed two SD sonys and the F950 which i think you are talking about the HDW-F950 aka 80G Camera. First off the two sonys you talked about are nice sure but NOT HD. regardless again of everything thats out there in this PRICE range you will find that the HDR-HC1E will get you the best results...unless you WANT, poor image resolution and want video aka 60i. Also none of that post 24P stuff works that good btw...i've tested all of it. I will also say this any HD camera in this price range is going to be the ticket. I say the HC1E because of all the cameras out there it has the most manual controls.
The others who cares about manual if it looks like your shooting a home movie. I am in Chicago so if people are wondering..i own this camera you can check it out if you like to see for yourself. Only reason HC1E wont work is if you are doing motion tracking for CG elements which I doubt you are doing but I may be wrong.

Peace,
-Darren

[DjfunkmasterG]

I know the VX series cams are SD. However I was just posting my feeling that unless those model Numbers are on the camera they look like you are shooting home movies. The Panasonic series whether the DVX100 or HVX200 are way btter cameras with tons of manual control. The Canon XL-H1 is a great HD cam as well, although the $9k price tag is a bit of a drag.