What ever happened to Millitary for criminals?

[Tied2thetracks]

Back in the day didn't the courtd have the millitary as a tool instead of prison?

"Hey you stole a car, do you want to go to prison or join the army?"

The ACLU or some group like it beat that tool down, I think it could be a great oppertunity. Prison or jail doesn't reform most criminals but the disipline and pride one gets from the millitary can change peoples life.
We should explore giving criminals (depending on the offense) the option.

I also think this would be a good tool for illegal "immigrants" and "earned citizenship".
Its a job, it pays more than selling oranges, it shows that you want to be a US citizen. What a great way to "resolve their status"

Any thoughts?

[DjfunkmasterG]

Any crime, as long as it isn't violent, I would be fine with. Violent offenders need to go to Jail period.

As far as the illegal immigrants, if they are willing to serve 8 years in the armed forces during peace time, 4 during war time and have seen major combat operations then they should be granted American Citizenship.

[FoodFight]

Other than it is an insult to those who willingly serve?

[Tied2thetracks]

Thank you for that, it hadden't even occured to me how it would be an insult.

I think there could be a compromise in there somwhere, I just don't know what it would be.

Mybe we could comp time to vets who commit crimes. (joke)

South Park operation brown shield comes to mind.

I know its not a perfec plan but I believe there is some merrit to it.

[EvilNed]

I don't think it would send a very good message in this day and age.

"The military is for criminals."

[coma]

They are letting in Felons and people with lower IQs and High School drop outs.
So now all the upstanding dudes have to deal with dumasses and car thieves. The Military is not supposed to be prison, but if you do that it may be some help for crooks to straiten out, but makes it a lower experience for regular folks

[ProfessorChaos]

I went in the Marines to get myself out of trouble, but more like as an escape rather than an alternative to jail/prison time....althought it was a minor offense, one of many. I just figured that if I wanted to get off my lazy ass and get some discipline and direction in my life, the Marines were my ticket out. Looking back, it was much better than the alternative, which would have been staying around and getting in even more trouble, possibly ending up in prison, dead, etc.

I grew up more during my four years of active duty and learned more about life and death than any school, job, etc could ever hope to teach me. It was, without a doubt, the best decision I ever made. So if the person (criminal) is willing and able, I say it is a good thing to serve....however, some people are just plain fuc*ed up and worthless individuals, and they won't be able to take orders, work with others, be responsible for their own actions, etc...so it's not always the answer. Worked for me, though.

I recently read that the military is now taking more enlistees with what are known as "moral waivers", which means they are allowing more and more people to enlist, in spite of their criminal record. I do think that you have to draw the line somewhere, though...I don't think I'd be too comfortable having a guy who's been convicted of rape or child molestation in my platoon.

[Tied2thetracks]

Lets help young kids get on the right track, What does jail offere them?

Yes you can die fighting a war. You can die breaking into cars and selling dope.

[jdog]

from working in the correctional system and from the school i am curently taking i have seen first hand that prison only helps a small handfull of cons reabilitate. most of them are more hardend and street wise when they get out then before they went in, so i would be all for non-violent criminals having the option of prision or millitary.

[coma]

from working in the correctional system and from the school i am curently taking i have seen first hand that prison only helps a small handfull of cons reabilitate. most of them are more hardend and street wise when they get out then before they went in, so i would be all for non-violent criminals having the option of prision or millitary.
If , for example, I got caught with a bunch of herb and was facing 10 years in jail, I would def take 4 years in the Army instead because you can meet exotic people and kill them:D Kidding on the last part.

[jdog]

for crimes like that it would be a perfect option. its win win for everyone. saves tax dollars since we dont have to house them in the prision and it sure as hell would beat jail.

[coma]

for crimes like that it would be a perfect option. its win win for everyone. saves tax dollars since we dont have to house them in the prison and it sure as hell would beat jail.
When I was a kid I made some "mistakes". Prison would have done nothing to help me unless learning how to get gangbanged and not hang yourself is a skill.
Prison should be for violent scumbags and cons artists (that includes corrupt officials). Prison would be a lot more fair if they oput violent people in one place and non violent in another. Why does a DUI person who hurt someone be in a cell with a serial rapist or a gangbanger?

[Danny]

uh...so youd want some psycho gun nut to be taught how to use a tank?:p

[Dtothe3]

Considering that one of the things the drill into you in the military is de-humanisation, I don't think it matters whether you have a degree, nothing or are a criminal.

However, I think the disipline empthasised in the military would be a better approach then anything else.

[jdog]

When I was a kid I made some "mistakes". Prison would have done nothing to help me unless learning how to get gangbanged and not hang yourself is a skill.
Prison should be for violent scumbags and cons artists (that includes corrupt officials). Prison would be a lot more fair if they oput violent people in one place and non violent in another. Why does a DUI person who hurt someone be in a cell with a serial rapist or a gangbanger?

i agree. puting a non-violent offender like a DUI or theft in the same cell as someone who is a killer or a rapist does nothing to help rehabilitation it only turns them into a harder criminal.

[tju1973]

from working in the correctional system and from the school i am curently taking i have seen first hand that prison only helps a small handfull of cons reabilitate. most of them are more hardend and street wise when they get out then before they went in, so i would be all for non-violent criminals having the option of prision or millitary.


Prison as a tool to rehabilitate is a joke-- I am for letting a portion into the military-- as long as the crimes weren't too violent or morally reprehensible. Maybe let them in to due some crap work -- permanent working parties, doing the menial tasks most militaries get stuck doing-- put them on subsitance pay for at least 2 years and at a rank that would be considered lower than a recruit (ie a new penal rank P1 through P3)-- if they do honorable service during those two years, let them get a meaningful job and put them on normal pay-- but start them at E-1 at that time--

May work-- may not---

[Eyebiter]

This was popular in the Vietnam era and before, the idea that the military conscripts could be used to recondition young offenders. Witness the sorry state of the US military during the 1970's, with all the drug and morale problems.

Things turned around in the 1980's with the draw down of American conventional forces. With a shrinking army came increased standards, many marginal recruits were rejected because a smaller pool of applicants was required to meet manpower goals. The military could raise the ASVAB scores, mandate a high school diploma, no tattoos, and bar those convicted of certain crimes.

Fast forward to today. With the war on terror the requirements have been relaxed again. Now you can have up to 5 tattoos, can have a history of gang activity, and many crimes can be waived to make recruiting goals. It's my understanding the US Army is easier to get in than the Marines. But both groups have seen a decline in the quality of the recruits since 2001. While a few quality troops will volunteer to enlist during times of war, often it's the young urban poor and people from rural areas without much opportunity that fill our ranks.

[MinionZombie]

Perzactly, violent criminals most definitely need locking up, but other crimes I'd say yeah - military would be a good idea, provides an alternative, aleviates the strain on the prison service, boosts the military in times of need, and particularly "white collar criminals" will be made to do something a bit more manly rather than skimming percentages ... and I think I'd rather do a stint in the military than go to the Ass-Pound-Palace. :eek:

Mind you, I'm not looking to be a criminal! :eek:

[Wooley]

What's wrong with it?

Do they really want to change? Or are they just using a this as a way to stay out of prision?

If they are just using it as a way to stay of of prision, then you've got people who are not motivated to be all they can be, but to do just enough not to get discharged. That means that you and the rest of the guys in your unit who did volunteer must now pick up the punk's slack.

Not someone you want to have watching your back in a firefight.

Plus, do we really want to take criminally minded people and teach them marksmanship, unarmed combat, team tactics, and the ability to lead others and formulate a plan, and give them a chance to hone these skills in a combat enviroment, so that when they return home, and rejoin the thug life, they bring these skills with them?

Some criminals would change, others will take it as a way out, and depress the overall quality of the units they are in, making that unit much less combat effective. That is the purpose of the Armed Forces-combat, not teaching job skills, or ironing out a young punk's crap life, or any of that other touchy feely BS. Anything that subtracts or interferes with that mission of combat must not be allowed to exist.

[MinionZombie]

That's why those proven to be deceptive/untrustworthy and especially violent criminals wouldn't get the choice. Military service should be a choice for people who are just unmotivated in general life (but just need a kick up the arse, boot camp style) or for "white collar criminals" and generally low-grade criminals.

We could certainly do with it now in the UK, not enough soldiers, too many prisoners, not enough prisons...and it's a sorry state.

Perhaps separate units could be created out of those on a prison-military stint of service, so they're not out there with those who volunteered?

[Wooley]

That's why those proven to be deceptive/untrustworthy and especially violent criminals wouldn't get the choice. Military service should be a choice for people who are just unmotivated in general life (but just need a kick up the arse, boot camp style) or for "white collar criminals" and generally low-grade criminals.

Perhaps separate units could be created out of those on a prison-military stint of service, so they're not out there with those who volunteered?


Well, in that case, when the nuts and slackers are weeded out from those who really want to change, and are placed in segregated units away from volunteers with no records would certainly be an idea.

[Exatreides]

wow, a topic i might know a thing or two about.

Well, I joined the Army national guard back in August. The minimum ASVAB score to join is a 31 (However, you can only be infantry and supply clerk with this score). And you can get a waiver if you score from 15 up. These are really rather difficult to get however, and recruiters are only given around 3 every 6 months.

Tats? You can have a unlimted number of them as long as they have no hate symbols, gang related symbols. They can not be above the coller bone on the neck, or below the wrist.

That way if you wear a class A uniform they can not see them.

Actully have my ACU's on still from drill this weekend hehe.

Well, with a War in Iraq, Afghanstan and around the world with seemingly no end in sight, the traditional TV based, radio, magazine based recruiting systems don't really work very well. Thats why the people that REALLY want to join, and that REALLY want in, should be allowed if their previous history is not that bad.

In 2003, The national Guard had its lowest yearly recruting and retention goal in nearly 40 years. Thats why they stopped pushing TV ads like the Reserve and Active army. Thats why they started a program with dockupak, every time a soldier talks to one of his friends, or brings in a recruit who is sucessfully brought into the military they make $2,000. Not only do they make money, but they can go up to E-3 in Rank.

Actully, thats how I became a PFC :).


So honestly, who gives a **** if people have Tats, a low ASVAB score (Supply Clerk, Infantry), or a couple pok marks on a criminal record. When guardsmen are seeing there 2nd, 3rd, and even 4th deployments to Iraq what do you want?

Either,
A. Do nothing and let the system keep working.
B. Bring Back the Draft
C. End the War

(C's a good one to!)

[MinionZombie]

I certainly don't believe in a draft, in this day and age there's no need for one, and it should always be about choice. If you choose to join the army then fine, but these days there's no need for conscription, especially as war these days is nowhere near as clear cut as the two World Wars.

[MaximusIncredulous]

...its win win for everyone...

Not quite if they're released on the streets with PTSD.