Surprised this hasn't been mentioned 'ere yet...

[MinionZombie]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/20070407/tuk-uk-britain-shooting-fa6b408.html

Shocking stuff, hopefully the CCTV footage will give at least some good clues, or hopefully an ID on the scumbag.

What the hell's up? What's with all these shootings of late? ... aye you could say it might not be 'any more than usual, these are just being broadcast' ... but dude ... wtf is going on? :eek:

Some kind of lunatic to shoot a pregnant woman over a bloody parking space! :eek:

[Tricky]

Society as a whole doesnt care anymore,its rotten from the bottom to the top :( my mum was parked outside a supermarket in hull the other week when all of a sudden a load of chavs came belting out of the door with their arms full of crates of beer they'd stolen,they were cheering loudly and all the passers by outside the shop just laughed along with them and watched the security guards unsuccesfully try to chase them!my mum was shocked that no-one did anything to stop them,and thats reflected right across the country.I saw something about an innocent bloke who was badly beaten up by a gang in a busy tube station,no-one helped him or anything.If i was there in either circumstances i would intervene,i cant stand seeing people just turning a blind eye to these sort of things.These shootings are just another example of society not giving a damn about anyone except themselves.I wont upset certain members of the board by ranting about the government,but i think most of you would or should agree with me that there needs to be a massive no tolerence crackdown in this country.The police need the red tape cutting and their hands untying,they also need to recruit tough officers who dont act like lily livered social workers.The judges need replacing by people who are willing to dish out harsh sentences,even for petty crimes so the message gets across,and if that takes more prisons then im happy for my taxes to pay for it.Parents need to get their acts together and not let their sprogs run wild,making excuses for their behaviour like "oh leave them alone their just kids", and schools need to crack down on the discipline and even have a lesson or two a week (registration periods would be a good time) on law and order,so the kids at least know the consequences of things they get up to outside of school.That,in my opinion,would be a good start

[_liam_]

hey come on, there's no need to bitch about me, i dont mind people ranting about the government as long as it's ;

* backed up with facts

* relevant to the thread

* and the poster can take someone (alright, me) challenging their viewpoint. what's the point in saying something if youre just preaching to the converted?

i think that's fair enough.

i agree more needs to be done about crime, i'm the one who's up for more cops, more CCTV and sterilising sex offenders innit...

[MinionZombie]

There was something I saw on TV t'other day, about intervening in such instances ... or maybe it was something my Mum saw and told me about ... either way, it was about intervening.

Basically, yes, people need to stop looking the other way, but likewise, don't make the situation worse and add to statistics by getting yourself in the shiite. It's all about weighing it up, if you're 'ard as nails, then take them on, especially if you've got some Bruce Lee moves working for ya. Otherwise, find other passers by to gang up on the perps and help the victim.

The coppers in this country definitely need their hands untying from the red tape beaurocracy - there were some shocking stats touted around recently I think, something like 1 in 58 officers are 'on the beat' at any one time ... something like that, I can't exactly remember, but it was shocking stuff to say the least. :(

Definitely, tough sentences are requried, there's too many high profile limp sentences out there, so it breeds an air of "ah f*ck it" rather than "holy sh*t, I don't wanna get caught" amongst the criminal element. You want to inspire them to think twice, but a sad thing about the world today, often times being in prison is a better life for career crims than being in the outside world, and that's f*cked up.

More prisons are needed, no diggity no doubt. Not super casinos, there's no need for that, it's frivolous when you're prisons are full. Prisons are there to protect the citizens from dangerous elements, if you run out of space, you build more - it's simple. We need more prison spaces. Did you see the thing on Channel 4 the other day, someone went undercover as a prisoner to get the 'inside word' on one of those 'open' prisons or whatever they're called. Shocking stuff, a system that clearly isn't working because those charged with running the place have no idea what they're doing - not even looking at either the IDs or the prisoners during role call (which helped a violent criminal escape not only the prison, but the country (it is believed, for the latter). The drugs programme sounds rather ludicrous from the words of one prisoner on it - 15 quid a week, then 30 quid at the end. The guy himself said he's still on drugs, and the money just gave him money to buy the drugs - and the description of how the criminals get drugs was eye-opening to say the least, they've basically got the place wired, Ferris Bueller style.

Although, there was an interesting side note to the drug thing, spoken by the drug rehab officer bloke, apparently when the guards turned pretty much a blind eye (or nose) to the prisoners smoking weed, it was better than what they had now, it also kept the prisoners calm ... and while it's crazy, I guess it's a "lesser of two evils" situation...although both are far from ideal.

*sigh*...

Hell yeah, schools need their power back to tackle problem kids, and bad parents need schooling themselves ... how, I've no idea...

*ug* Chavs ... those bastards...it would have been great if they'd tripped up and the bottles smashed underneath them and then everyone laughed at them ... that would have been actually funny.

[_liam_]

i'm sick to death of seeing rapists get off with ten quid fines or whatever, while guys who sell weed or pirate dvds often get over a decade in jail...

i think more jails are needed but further to that some sentences need to be lightened and some things should be decriminalised altogether, we have a complex problem with the prison system and i think it will take a combination of things to solve it.

edit
and the chav thing is baffling. most working class kids are fine, it's weird how this little clique/lifestyle has emerged.

tbh i think there should be a crackdown on the celebration of yob culture within the media (just call me goebbels)

[Tricky]

hey come on, there's no need to bitch about me, i dont mind people ranting about the government as long as it's ;

* backed up with facts

* relevant to the thread

* and the poster can take someone (alright, me) challenging their viewpoint. what's the point in saying something if youre just preaching to the converted?

i think that's fair enough.

i agree more needs to be done about crime, i'm the one who's up for more cops, more CCTV and sterilising sex offenders innit...


Nah wasnt aimed at you in general chief! :) i'd have said if it was

[MinionZombie]

There's 'yob' culture (i.e. old people dispairing that we say "f*ck" a lot), and then there's flat out yob culture...which is often rather chavvy...and yeah, where the f*ck did they come from?! :eek: The modern shell-suit-wearers? That was the 1990s, this is the 00s...hmmm...

Some sentences for relatively minor things (like selling a bit of puff), or pirate DVDs ... that's pretty tame in comparison. The latter could even be considered "white collar crime", as it's known, possibly ... stuff that relates to piracy, fraud etc...those sort of folk should either be fined appropriately, or if it's like proper fraud, then an open prison situation. Basically, a 'soft boy' prison.

I also think that non-violent criminals should be put to work. Not just rotting in some building, but taken out there under armed guard (possibly in some kind of modern chain gain situation) to go and do manual labour, so that we're actually getting something out of them being banged up ... like in America where they have crims pressing license plates. That kind of menial, relatively simple labour. Make them do something while in prison. There seems to be too much sitting around being unconstructive...

[Tricky]

Im not too bothered about harsh sentencing for weed,ive been involved in the drugs scene myself and i saw how it changed me and other people,never for the better,so if tough sentences are dished out for that then i'd be all for it.Like i say,zero tolerence,put a strong message across.
For example the kids who did this..
http://www.historicfortgreene.org/images1/graffiti/graffiti.jpg
Would firstly be made to clean it off,and as part of the punishment would also get two months in a sh*thole of a prison (think nova prospekt but without the torture rooms :p )

[_liam_]

Nah wasnt aimed at you in general chief! :) i'd have said if it was
lol :o sorry ;) i'm feelin paranoid today


but aye,

intensive therapy for violent offenders i reckon.

if that fails, sh!t...lobotomy or something. we need the ludovico treatment...

i'd love to be idealistic but there are just too many animals out there who will twat you,mug you and rape your missus, yknow?

and they arent as rare as you would think either.

[coma]

Im not too bothered about harsh sentencing for weed,ive been involved in the drugs scene myself and i saw how it changed me and other people,never for the better,so if tough sentences are dished out for that then i'd be all for it.Like i say,zero tolerence,put a strong message across.
For example the kids who did this..
http://www.historicfortgreene.org/images1/graffiti/graffiti.jpg
Would firstly be made to clean it off,and as part of the punishment would also get two months in a sh*thole of a prison (think nova prospekt but without the torture rooms :p )
That kind of tagging is talentless.
I, however, Love a great piece on an ugly ass wall. The east bronx is wall to wall with huge throwups. Tagging is like pissing on a fire hydrant but I really love a nice piece of graff.
Not anymore, but I used to do a tag in every public bathroom I went into. 100s across the country. But mine are nice. Never busted. FTP, beyotch!

[MinionZombie]

Aye, there should be specific spots designated to allow taggers to pretty up the place, like old derelict areas so that the proper taggers and graff artists can do it legally - and safely.

No talent scrawling is just retarded, they must think they're proper leet or something, probably a bunch of 13 yr old Max Power masturbators...

I'd totally support designated areas for graff artists to go nuts and really put their talent down, there's whole swathes of dumpy streets of boarded up houses - like in Manchester - just imagine those but covered completely in graff murals ... now that'd be something. Take a sh*thole that's just sitting there, and at least make something of it.

[Tricky]

i do agree that some graffitti is awesome artwork,but however good it is it shouldnt be done on public property,like rail bridges and houses etc,it just makes the place look like a no go area where you'll likely get mugged.Thankfully where i live you dont see much of it,but when im at work in hull,the entire city is covered in tags and abuse like in that pic i put up!shops,phoneboxes,houses,fences,lamposts,trains, war memorials,cemetarys the lot,it just makes the entire city look scummy (which it is,voted worst city in the UK several times over)
Things like this dont help
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0008JILU4.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

Usually im not one to say that games affect peoples behaviour,but it does glorify tagging and vandalism which is already a major problem which doesnt need making worse

[Terran]

Is there any evidence that supports the idea that no tolerance crackdowns and unleashing police actually dissuades criminal activity?

Because I think everyone can think of plenty of instances where it has exactly the opposite effect.

Hell you could say “any person convicted of a federal offense gets a bullet to the head” and you would still get just as much criminal activity if not more….it would just come in different flavors….

Police are people too….and all people are equally capable of being criminals….especially if police are “unleashed” and unbounded by the “red tape” that controls them. Look at countries where the police are not bothered with all the restrictions of countries like the US and UK. They are horribly corrupt and actually facilitate further crime by taking bribes and turning a blind eye to more organized criminal elements.

The problem with this idea for crime solution is that there is a flaw in the fundamental logic behind it.

“No tolerance crackdown”…or “tough on crime”….
This idea seems to be based on the following logic.

People that don’t commit crimes act that way because they are afraid of the consequences.
People that do commit crimes act that way because they are unafraid of the consequences.
Therefore the worse you make the consequences the more crime you can prevent.


Flaws in this logic.

It assumes that all people will be criminals in absence of all consequences (which isn’t entirely untrue see riots/anarchy but still a flawed concept)
It assumes that before people commit crimes that they actually consider consequences in the first place. So this idea totally ignores crimes of passion, gang violence, the mentally deranged, the mentally ill, drug related incidences, accidental murders, or any of the crimes that already composes more than 90% of the current prison population. In other words most people in prison are there because while performing their crime they never even considered the consequences in the first place.



And don’t even get me started with how messed up the prison system is. For every one story we hear of some horrible criminal getting released early there are literally dozens and dozens of stories of the opposite happening. People that were only meant to serve 10 years and end up serving 20 because of gang politics within prisons…People literally get forced into committing crimes within prison extending their sentences.... and then when they finally get out they come out a worse person and more criminally orientated than they were when they were first imprisoned.



The thing is these ideas are so horribly flawed but still widely popular with people only because it strikes an emotional chord.
“How do you intend to stop crime”
“Im gonna kick the **** out of it! Tougher prisons! Tougher Cops! Tougher Sentences!”
“Yeah I totally agree! I reciprocate your emotional response on every level!”

Problem is this approach has never worked historically and it seems very unlikely to ever work in the near future. but people will keep pushing for it because its easier not to think about it.

[Tricky]

And on that note,how would you propose to deal with crime?surely its obvious that softly softly is just as ineffective as you say being tough is?
Anyway if we are to believe what we are told,no tolerence cleaned new york up a fair bit!

[_liam_]

terran...will you marry me?:lol:

[Terran]

And on that note,how would you propose to deal with crime?surely its obvious that softly softly is just as ineffective as you say being tough is?
Anyway if we are to believe what we are told,no tolerence cleaned new york up a fair bit!

Prisons if anything are the best example of how “No tolerance crackdown”…or “tough on crime”….does not work in the real world. These environments are highly controlled and completely authoritarian. Yet drug trafficking, robbery, drug usage, gang activity, assaults, bribery, extortion, murder, and rape occur regularly in these places. If we cant prevent crime within these controlled environments with these “tough on crime” guidelines how could we ever even hope to prevent it on the streets.


And how come when someone points out how something does not work they immediately ask for an alternative as if in the absence of an alternative that we should continue doing things the wrong way.


Im gonna pull out a Dr Phil type analogy Ill put it in quotes so you can skip it you wish cause its mostly unimportant…..


NASA is trying to put a chimp into outer space by launching them out of catapults. Each time they try it, the chimp goes flying up into the air and comes flying back down to earth splats on the ground and dies.
After the bodies of chimps really start to pile up a civilian says “Hey wait a minute this is not working all we are doing is killing a lot of chimps you cant put a chimp into space with a catapult”
and Nasa responds “Well then, how would you propose to send a chimp into outer space!”
“Well I dunno, but cant we just step away from the catapult for a moment and reevaluate this?” the civilian asks
“That’s not progress and it does not even get a chimp an inch closer to outer space! what we need is bigger catapults, and tougher chimps!”


Also I found your wording very interesting…..


surely its obvious that softly is just as ineffective as you say being tough is?

I would say surely its obvious that the toughest policy on crime would be the one that works most effectively.
Being “tough” on crime would mean being effective at fighting it. It shouldn’t have anything to do with the methods involved.

One could be horribly brutal in their approach towards crime and criminals but if that policy made things worse or was completely ineffectual wouldn’t that mean that this brutal policy is “soft” on crime or a weak attempt at fighting it.
Alternatively if one could give these horrible criminals lollypops, hugs, cable TV, and stuffed teddy bears and if this prevented them from committing crimes wouldn’t this policy be considered “tough” on crime or strong at fighting it.


This all being said here is some alternative changes.


First and most crucial thing to fix is the prisons.
Most importantly crush the gang activity. This causes nearly all of the crime in prisons and a decent amount of crime outside the prisons.
Separate long term sentenced criminals from short term sentenced criminals. And I mean completely different facilities in different locations. They cant be close enough to communicate via hidden notes.

Criminals that will be released back into society within a relatively short period of time need to be groomed to have the skills to make it in society. Offer schooling and trade school programs. With the trade schools have government run agencies that hire those trades.
For Drug offenders offer extensive rehab programs.
The non-life sentence prisons need to be dried out of all illegal drugs.
Provide plenty of material inside prisons to keep minds busy. Books. TV. Arts/crafts ….etc
[I got tons of prison reforms stuff….but I don’t want to turn this into just a prison thing. So Ill just stop here]

Outside of prison stuff.


Legalize marijuana. Tax Heavily like cigarettes [Address legality of other drugs at some later date]
Use money to further fund extensive rehab programs and drug education programs.
[This step alone will ease some of the strain on the prison system]

Increase police force. [Mostly just in the areas that need the increase, in my county we get like four cops to show up before one will even exit the car every time a person gets caught speeding]
Increase police patrols especially in problem areas.

Increase youth programs, youth events, and clubs.
Have units very early in school that deal with empathy towards people and that deal with aspects of crime and its effects on people. (Preschool, kindergarten, grade school).



Hmm that’s all I got right now…….I could probably think of some more if I gave it some more thought….


terran...will you marry me?:lol:

Maybe if you were a virgin Carmella Bing
:)

[_liam_]

:lol:

[Marie]

Make them do something while in prison. There seems to be too much sitting around being unconstructive...

They ARE doing things while in prison. They're working out in the weight room and learning how to do other crimes from other inmates. We have made prison here into crime school. They come out stronger and with extra skills, none of which helps them get a regular job.

We need to give them some alternative to learn honest skills.

M_

[capncnut]

http://www.historicfortgreene.org/images1/graffiti/graffiti.jpg
Does that say Hybrid? If anyone can read that s**t then please tell me. :confused:

[MinionZombie]

They ARE doing things while in prison. They're working out in the weight room and learning how to do other crimes from other inmates. We have made prison here into crime school. They come out stronger and with extra skills, none of which helps them get a regular job.

We need to give them some alternative to learn honest skills.

M_
Which is why I reckon there should be prisons where nobody shares a room, it's all solitary confinement, and possibly the only time they get to 'socialise' is out in 'the yard', but under surveilance so they can't really do anything. Solitary confinement, now there's something to be feared, it wouldn't be a bizarre summer camp experience anymore.

As for the whole graffiti thing, like I was saying before, they need a designated area to go - like all those streets of crumbling, boarded up houses nobody apparently owns in Manchester, or crumbling old industrial areas, keep it in designated zones and then be tough elsewhere - or at least have a few squads of high-pressure-hose operators, that sh*t will blast it off no bother.

Also, there was a report on TV recently (it seems like I learn everything from TV innit? :lol: I swear to you though, I have books too! :D) ... anyway, it was on BBC News 24 or something, about taggers, and particular 'extreme taggers' or whatever they called themselves - people who hang from bridges or scale buildings to get the highest and most dangerous tag in place to earn street cred. They were saying that the illegality of it all was a major turn on, the thought of being caught spraying and then out-running the law was a big draw, and then of course it's all bragging rights...

What you need to help the problem is commercialise the crap out of it! Make them either hate it or join the legal version! :elol:

They mentioned Bristol (or was it Birmingham? ... one or the other...I've been to both) and I recognised some of the tagging. I remember driving through thinking "christ, how did they get up THERE?!"

Then of course the whole thing with kids spraying moving tags on trains, and then taking their mates to the rail station the next day to show their 'moving artwork' or whatever they called it. :rolleyes:

This is a youth with nothing better to do...I can see where you're coming from on that particular videogame, Tricky. It glorifies an easily obtainable crime, not like GTA where it's pimping and murder and such ... that's not something many teenagers and lazy layabout 20-somethings do...but tagging, that is something a fair amount of teenagers do...so I see where you're coming from. Australia even banned the game.