no freedom of speech for veterans?

[MissJacksonCA]

Vet May Lose 'Honorable' Status Over Protest
By HEATHER HOLLINGSWORTH
AP
KANSAS CITY, Mo. (May 31) - An Iraq war veteran could lose his honorable discharge status after being photographed wearing fatigues at an anti-war protest.
Marine Cpl. Adam Kokesh and other veterans marked the fourth anniversary of the war in Iraq in April by wearing their uniforms - with military insignia removed - and roaming around the nation's capital on a mock patrol.

After Kokesh was identified in a photo cutline in The Washington Post, a superior officer sent him a letter saying he might have violated a rule prohibiting troops from wearing uniforms without authorization.

Kokesh, a member of Iraq Veterans Against the War, responded with an obscenity.

Now, a military panel has been scheduled to meet with Kokesh on Monday to decide whether his discharge status should be changed from "honorable" to "other than honorable."

"This is clearly a case of selective prosecution and intimidation of veterans who speak out against the war," Kokesh said. "To suggest that while as a veteran you don't have freedom of speech is absurd."
Kokesh is part of the Individual Ready Reserve, a segment of the reserves that consists mainly of those who have left active duty but still have time remaining on their eight-year military obligations.

His attorney, Mike Lebowitz, said Kokesh's IRR status ends June 18. He said at least three other veterans have been investigated because of their involvement at demonstrations.

Kokesh, 25, enlisted in the Marines while still attending high school in New Mexico. He was a reservist in an artillery unit, assigned to the November Battery, 5th Battalion, 14th Regiment of the 4th Division based out of Pico Rivera, Calif., near Los Angeles.

Kokesh said he had reservations about Iraq even before the United States invaded, but wanted to go there to help rebuild schools and mosques after Saddam Hussein 's regime was toppled. He even learned Arabic.

He said he grew disillusioned with the war during his first tour, and now believes there is no way for the country to achieve the rule of law with a foreign military imposing martial law.
He was supposed to go to Iraq a second time, but was demoted from sergeant to corporal and not allowed to return after it was learned that he brought a pistol back after his first tour in 2004.

Kokesh argues that he was not representing the military at the protest in Washington, and he made that clear by removing his name tag and other military insignia from his uniform.

Lebowitz said Kokesh technically is a civilian unless recalled to active duty and had the right to be disrespectful in his response to the officer. He called the proceedings against Kokesh highly unusual and said the military usually seeks to change a veteran's discharge status only if a crime has been committed.

If his discharge status is changed, Kokesh said he could lose some health benefits and be forced to repay about $10,800 he received to obtain his undergraduate degree on the GI Bill.

Kokesh said he holds no ill will toward the Marines.

"I love the Marine Corps," he said. "I always have loved the Marine Corps, and that is why I'm particularly offended to see it being used for political ends."


For me this guy is most honorable... he's protesting a war after serving in it. Most people protest the war and dont participate.

[acealive1]

good old USA. we're so dumb we dont learn from our past so we repeat it. vietnam,korean war. iraq 1991, iraq 2001.........

[darth los]

Good for him. I hope all works out well for him. What's uncocionable is when these military people know that the war is going badly and don't say anything at all. It doesn't surprise me though that the gov't would try to screw people over just for speaking a truth that makes them look bad.

[Mike70]

hopefully this doesn't turn into a rant as a veteran myself i literally have steam coming out of both my ears right now.

the military has apparently lost its damn mind right along with the rest of the bush admin. this guy is a CIVILIAN-period. he is in the IRR which stands for INACTIVE READY RESERVE. note the key word in that phrase- INACTIVE. he is not under any oath of military service nor under any obligation to do anything anyone in the military tells him to do - regardless of their rank. he would have to be formally recalled to ACTIVE duty for ANY part of the UCMJ to pertain to him. this is bulls*hite in the biggest sense of the word.

so i fail to see what the fraking snit is.

i am a veteran myself and i wouldn't put a fraking dog in the US military right now. this country is being turned into a gigantic craphole of civil rights abuses against anyone who doesn't toe the party line. the bush admin is sinking in its own incompetence (if you fail to see or understand that the bush admin is utterly and completely incompetent, i would suggest that you need immediate psychiatric help) and is seeking to lash out at anyone or anything that seems to be a easy target for their nasty, brutish and digusting view of the world. fu*ck bush. fu*ck cheney. i would have them both raped by dogs if it stood within my power to do so.

[darth los]

I for one love this country and all the freedoms we used to have.:p

[Cody]

im moving to europe.

[darth los]

If you do, There's no better place than Amsterdam, end of story.:D You think it's anything like the flick Eurotrip?

[acealive1]

hopefully this doesn't turn into a rant as a veteran myself i literally have steam coming out of both my ears right now.

the military has apparently lost its damn mind right along with the rest of the bush admin. this guy is a CIVILIAN-period. he is in the IRR which stands for INACTIVE READY RESERVE. note the key word in that phrase- INACTIVE. he is not under any oath of military service nor under any obligation to do anything anyone in the military tells him to do - regardless of their rank. he would have to be formally recalled to ACTIVE duty for ANY part of the UCMJ to pertain to him. this is bulls*hite in the biggest sense of the word.

so i fail to see what the fraking snit is.

i am a veteran myself and i wouldn't put a fraking dog in the US military right now. this country is being turned into a gigantic craphole of civil rights abuses against anyone who doesn't toe the party line. the bush admin is sinking in its own incompetence (if you fail to see or understand that the bush admin is utterly and completely incompetent, i would suggest that you need immediate psychiatric help) and is seeking to lash out at anyone or anything that seems to be a easy target for their nasty, brutish and digusting view of the world. fu*ck bush. fu*ck cheney. i would have them both raped by dogs if it stood within my power to do so.


from one ohioan to another, amen.

[AcesandEights]

You think it's anything like the flick Eurotrip?

Amsterdam is a great place to visit and the outskirts are beautiful, but the citycenter is the dirtiest piece of Western civilization I've ever seen. Had a great time, though.

[darth los]

I think it's just the appeal of the fact that mostly everything that's illegal in the states you can do over there without fear of reprocussions. But like they say, the grass is always greener.... Question: Do Europeans think we're prudish? I mean, Janet jackson flashes a nipple, which i didn't notice until they showed it 10 times a night for 3 months in super slow motion, and everybody went nuts.

[FoodFight]

Not quite. IRR stands for 'Individual Ready Reserve', meaning that they do not drill as a unit. As such, IRR members are required to 'maintain readiness' and are still subject to UCMJ. The issue here is that he is still under obligation and has violated one of the rules. If he had waited until his MDO had finished, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[AcesandEights]

Question: Do Europeans think we're prudish?

I'm not even European and I can tell you that, when it comes to sex and comfort with the human body, an overwhelming number of Europeans would say: yes, Americans are prudish about such things. That's because it's true.

[Mike70]

frak rules. i was in the IRR (forgot about that individual thingy) you are still NOT on active duty nor are you in the military. you have to be on active duty for the UCMJ to apply.

anyway in all truth i could give a flying frak about the legalistic aside (only people with very, very narrow minds and limited intelligence think legalistically- what is "legal" is often neither moral nor right- here are just 3 examples: miscgenation laws in this country, segregation laws, and apartheid- those were the law of the land. were they right? were they moral?) this is a massive load of crap that is being perpetrated by a govt. led by a president who is only in power in the first damn place because his brother was governor of florida. a govt that has:

held people (including citizens of great britian and australia) without trial and in some cases incommunicado for years on end.

has allowed people to be tortured.\

has allowed people to be transported to places outside of US legal jurisdiction (eastern europe, et al) so they can be tortured.

has spied on its own citizens in scandal after scandal- the whole collection of phone call thing just for one.

bungled the whole katrina thing until it was fiasco of olympus mons level proportions.

has dismissed us attorneys for not toeing the party line

has pushed through dangerous ass legislation like the patriot act and the military comissions act

has gone after a dead journalists papers (a guy named anderson-a real thorn in the side of the fbi) after he was dead because they were too chicken of him in life. they have also threatened his 80 year old widow with jail if she doesn't turn over said files so the govt can "see if there is anything classified in them."

has wanted to track peoples (including us citizens) library records

has engaged in a devastatingly expensive both in terms of human life and money war in iraq that seemingly has no end in sight and is going to probably end rather badly for all involved.

has repeatedly tried to deny people equal protection under the law because of their sexuality.

has allowed the fcc to tighten censorship rules at every turn- this one really pisses me off. i am 37 years nofrakinbody should be able to tell me what i can see, hear or read.


in short a govt. made up of cowardly, hate filled scum that we will all be better off without when jan 2009 rolls around.

none of the people in the bush admin is fit to even piss on. again - i would have them all raped by dogs. no wait check that. i would use the military comissions act against them. have them all declared public enemies and then stood up in front of a military tribunal for crimes against the constitution and humanity. i wonder how they would like that.

[AcesandEights]

a govt that has:

held people (including citizens of great britian and australia) without trial and in some cases incommunicado for years on end.

has allowed people to be tortured.\

has allowed people to be transported to places outside of US legal jurisdiction (eastern europe, et al) so they can be tortured.

has spied on its own citizens in scandal after scandal- the whole collection of phone call thing just for one.

bungled the whole katrina thing until it was fiasco of olympus mons level proportions.

has dismissed us attorneys for not toeing the party line

has pushed through dangerous ass legislation like the patriot act and the military comissions act

has gone after a dead journalists papers (a guy named anderson-a real thorn in the side of the fbi) after he was dead because they were too chicken of him in life. they have also threatened his 80 year old widow with jail if she doesn't turn over said files so the govt can "see if there is anything classified in them."

has wanted to track peoples (including us citizens) library records

has engaged in a devastatingly expensive both in terms of human life and money war in iraq that seemingly has no end in sight and is going to probably end rather badly for all involved.

has repeatedly tried to deny people equal protection under the law because of their sexuality.

has allowed the fcc to tighten censorship rules at every turn- this one really pisses me off. i am 37 years nofrakinbody should be able to tell me what i can see, hear or read.


in short a govt. made up of cowardly, hate filled scum that we will all be better off without when jan 2009 rolls around.


QFT, brother.

[Graebel]

frak rules. i was in the IRR (forgot about that individual thingy) you are still NOT on active duty nor are you in the military. you have to be on active duty for the UCMJ to apply.

Not true. Families and spouses can be charged under the UCMJ.

But I can't remember there being anything wrong with him wearing cammies since he removed all the USMC insignia. (Although how he got the EGA off the cover - since they are preprinted these days - is ???)

When I got out I kept a couple of pairs, ripped off the name tags and used them to garden/do work in. Also knew a lot of guys who used them for paintball.

On a side note - I changed careers cause I refused to work for the US govt and by taking a job with certain groups (anyone remotely pro-Arab) could have endangered my husband's security clearance.

I didn't vote for the idiot and his disregard for rights. :mad: But we're still stuck with him.

[FoodFight]

frak rules. i was in the IRR (forgot about that individual thingy) you are still NOT on active duty nor are you in the military. you have to be on active duty for the UCMJ to apply.

So, you were in the IRR. So was I. It still adds no relevance to the situation. I did not make the claim that he was on active duty, but that too, is irrelevant. I direct you to sections 3.2 and 3.3 in the following text
http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/html/123513.htm Yes, UCMJ applies.


anyway in all truth i could give a flying frak about the legalistic aside Curious. The remainder of your text focuses on illegalities.


only people with very, very narrow minds and limited intelligence think legalistically- what is "legal" is often neither moral nor right- here are just 3 examples: miscgenation laws in this country, segregation laws, and apartheid- those were the law of the land.
Fortunately those 'simpletons' on the Supreme Court who are legalistically and morally grounded, exist to strike down segregation, apartheid, etc.


hopefully this doesn't turn into a rant as a veteran myself i literally have steam coming out of both my ears right now....and the inability to discern literal from figurativeis indicitive of intellect? No, don't think so.


i would use the military comissions act against them. have them all declared public enemies and then stood up in front of a military tribunal for crimes against the constitution and humanity. I get it. If someone holds your views they should be exempt from the law, but if not, they should be prosecuted. Where do situational ethics sit in your determination of intelligence. I assume that it's quite high, as you are clearly so adept at it.

I don't have a problem with people speaking their minds. However, any service member (IRR included), has given up certain rights during their term of service. He swore an oath and it's reasonable to hold him to it. Just like the administration.

[MissJacksonCA]

I've been trying to figure out a way to move there myself this war in iraq and the idea that if you're not with the bush admin. you're an anti american is driving me crazy. Not to mention that we work more than Europeans we're like little slave bees working our asses off and for what? Pathetic amount of vacay time? Bah...

****s rolling downhill... RUN FOR YOUR LIVES

[DVW5150]

It can be important for someone who has been through a *uckin' alot , served with others that may have become great friends (some might not be around anymore) to wear the combat dress (w/o insig) in solidarity with his brothers.

Some opinions seem indifferent to the suffering caused by this "war action-death-caused-by-lies" situation.
I say to you, " It would be a different story if it was you or a relative were killed by friendly."

I am so proud of the services people for doing their duty to survive & come home.

A few old friends of mine have left behind families.

Being shot at is abit un-nerving.
Enough for me. :eek: