Turning off the power...

[Legion2213]

Would shutting down the power in the mall have saved Peter, Stephen and Fran from the raiders (even for a short time)?

Just thinking that raiding a well lit mall would be a different prospect than raiding a pitch black mall full of zombies and a few folks who knew the layout of the place shooting at you.

I understand that they could've waited until daylight, but it still would've bought the defenders some time to organise a defense or escape plan.

What would you have done in their position?

[bassman]

It may have helped them get a bit more prepared for the invasion, but it still wouldn't have stopped the Bikers. Like Peter says "That's a professional Army" - they would get in and get what they want either way.

On the other hand, they still could have raided the mall at night....they have headlights on their bikes.

[Yojimbo]

Im inclined to agree with bassman: that WAS a professional army and nothing short of another dug in and sizable professional army could have repelled the invasion, and even that would have turned into a seige. Not that 3 surviors would have much of a chance to defend the mall against a well organized attack from the outside. Turning off the power, while maybe would have given the 3 survivors a minimal tactical advantage, would not have dissuaded that group of marauders.

If they were able to somehow repel the invaders' first attack, I think that the bikers would have taken it personally and then it would have become an important mission to them to invade the mall, not just for the hell of it or for supplies but to teach the people who had the gall to resist them a violent lesson. The bikers would have resorted to burning down the mall eventually just to screw with the surviors.

[ProfessorChaos]

even with the electricity out, the bikers (or someone else) would eventually try to get in and pillage the place, so i doubt that it'd do much good.

if i was in their situation (after roger has died) i would have been making every possible attempt to fortify and reinforce my blockades at the exits, even if only to delay the inevitable. seems like they could have done something a little more constructive with their time during the stages right after roger's death...i know they were possibly in grief, but there's still an entire (parking lot?town?nation?world?) of ghouls outside their fortress.

[Skippy911sc]

I think the smartest thing would have been to contact them ahead of time when the bikers first made contact...give them what they wanted...there was plenty to go around and at least everyone would have remained safe. Peter, Flyboy and Fran took it way to seriously...but that was the point consumerism...the items become the most important thing. Like victims of tornadoes just remember at least everyone was safe...things can be replaced but people can't

When the STUFF becomes the most important thing in our lives something is wrong!

[Danny]

i would have turned it off anyway, no esalators and whatnot. as for the bikers they would have broke in regardless, but knowing i had a chopper on the roof or could steal one of there bikes if worst caem to worst id try adn just hide- OR they should have doen a first blood and picked them off one by one.

now THAT would have been an ending, people wont go near the mall becuase the 4 of them set loads of traps and stuff and whent nuts over the stuff inside, they know the tunnels, bakc ways and vents, theyve got guns and stuff, it would have been cool to see if the bikers cmae in and set up shop, btu feeling it belonged to them flyboy and the rest staged a 4 man guierilla war, poisoning food and setting traps and stuff o pick them off one by one.

-course then the bikers would come back as zombies and eat them, oh the irony.:lol:

[ProfessorChaos]

^

if roger hadn't been bit, then maybe they would have done something like that... that'd be a cool alternate-universe what-if type scenario.:sneaky:

[SRP76]

^

if roger hadn't been bit, then maybe they would have done something like that... that'd be a cool alternate-universe what-if type scenario.:sneaky:

Funny, I was daydreaming about the exact same thing earlier today: the biker seige, if Roger had never been bitten. With him, I think they would have done it.

It wouldn't be hard to keep them out, especially if they had foreseen some kind of invasion. A large stock of Molotovs, to be thrown from the roof, would have done the trick. A wall of fire in the parking lot. Job done.

But, just on spur of the moment, they could have picked off nearly all of them. I counted 32 bikers in the invasion, so there could have been no more than 35, at maximum. There is only one approach, up the road and into the parking lot. Three rifles on the roof, well-covered (not to mention being under darkness, while the bikers' lights are like target beacons), at three different points on the roof...fish in a barrel. They could have easily wiped out 2/3 of the "professional army". Especially seeing how grabassy and disorganized that so-called "army" was.

If anything, I'm sure Fran could have been doing something a little more useful than walking around in the "apartment". Get on the roof and open fire, woman!

The only bikers that couldn't have been shredded by the elevated crossfire on approach would be the ones inside the two vans. A total of maybe 10 or 12 people. They would be facing the flamewall (if the Molotovs had been prepped), or, at the very least, the horde of reanimates. Plus, at least one (Fran) would be left on the roof, continuing to rain lead on them.

10 people, under fire, would have a whole hell of a lot harder time getting those trucks moved than 35 unbothered people. Especially since not ALL of them would be wading out into the zombie masses; some would remain in the vans, trying not to get capped by the rooftop sniper. The odds would be heavily against them.

Even if they did finally get by Fran and the undead, Peter and Stephen would have had plenty of time to set up yet another elevated crossfire overlooking the main concourse from the second level. Any raiders getting into the mall would have dead at their backs, and a turkey shoot in front. Dead meat.

The power would have no bearing on any of this.

And, with Roger on top of all that, it would be even easier to eradicate the invading bikers.

[Danny]

if both swat guys got up there with the sniper rifles they got then i dont reckon they would have had a porblem, when there driving towars the mall snipe the bikers in front so when there bikes tumble they halt the people behind, then when there confused hit em ard adn fast.


-man, for someone who's very anti- firearms i put a bit too much thought into that.

[SRP76]

-man, for someone who's very anti- firearms i put a bit too much thought into that.

Certain values tend to be re-thought the first time a corpse shambles up and tried to eat you.:lol:

A better question to the "power issue" would be:

Just what the hell was the power doing going out, in the first place?!

Peter was in the passageway leading to the false-wall-blocked control room. Fran upstairs. EVERYONE, zombies included, were outside from where Peter was. Nobody could have been back there, turning off the power.

Then, we see a mysterious hand flip the switch to turn power back on. Again, Peter is in the vents, with nobody beyond him.

W...T...F.

[jim102016]

I think the smartest thing would have been to contact them ahead of time when the bikers first made contact...give them what they wanted...there was plenty to go around and at least everyone would have remained safe. Peter, Flyboy and Fran took it way to seriously...but that was the point consumerism...the items become the most important thing. Like victims of tornadoes just remember at least everyone was safe...things can be replaced but people can't

When the STUFF becomes the most important thing in our lives something is wrong!


Pursuing a policy of appeasement with the bikers wouldn't have worked. How could you possibly carry it out safely, hang the keys over the edge of the roof and tell them to lock up again when they're finished shopping? I also doubt the bikers would be willing to come pick up supplies thrown off the roof. Lunatics can't be appeased, just look at Hitler.

I don't think there would have been any way to defend the mall without destroying it's integrity...i.e. keeping it "zombie proofed". Perhaps killing each and every one of the bikers before they reached the parking lot of the mall would have taken care of the problem.

If they had a few more people, they could pick them off from the roof, but surely the helicopter would get damaged in the crossfire, and the bikers who did get into the mall would be hell bent on getting up to the roof for some payback.

[Wyldwraith]

I disagree,
Marauders of all stripes throughout the ages are in it for the loot. Demonstrate to them it's going to cost a significant manpower loss and I honestly believe they woulda gone in search of greener pastures. Their boss was a bit clever, he knows replacing any casualties is a difficult proposition. Imagine if the little band in the wall nailed even 6-7 of them on their approach...I think things would've been a lot different. They went hog wild because of the passivity they were shown.

I think it's a case where realism was sacrificed to preserve the anti-consumerism message.

[Yojimbo]

I do think that a lot can be said for Peter's initial plan of action: that is, locking down as many of the stores as possible and then keeping out of sight. As he said, the bikers were after the place and not them. Perhaps then they would have been able to weather out the looting, wait until the bikers left then resealed the mall. His plan, of course, did not allow for Stephen to lose his cool and start taking pot shots at the bikers -- none of which I should add hit anyone. The result of his impotent attack of course was to piss off the bikers and spark a full blown war war.

Certainly, they were caught off guard at the time of the attack, and with hindsight after they got the mall resealed, the survivors would have had the opportunity to be better prepared for the next time looters came knocking.

As for taking an offensive stance on the roof from the onset of the bikers approach, it seems to me that only Peter had the skills to snipe moving targets at that distance. Certainly Stephen's abilities with the long rifle were not all that great, and in that sense maybe marginally better (or perhaps worse) than Fran's. In this regard, if Peter was really the only viable sniper of the three then perhaps he had the right idea in the first place.

Assuming that Peter would have been able to drop a few of the bikers, that would have sparked an all out war, and one which he would have started with the payoff of only thinning the number of total invaders only marginally.

[Legion2213]

I do like the idea of bringing down half a dozen of the lead bikers from the roof. Peter could've done that no problem...Fly boy & Fly girl could've made themselves useful reloading rifles and chucking petrol bombs in front of the entrances.

As for the idea of Roger not getting killed...Hell yes. He is probably my favorite GAR character of all time, I was ****ing gutted when he bought it. :(



Just what the hell was the power doing going out, in the first place?!

Peter was in the passageway leading to the false-wall-blocked control room. Fran upstairs. EVERYONE, zombies included, were outside from where Peter was. Nobody could have been back there, turning off the power.

Then, we see a mysterious hand flip the switch to turn power back on. Again, Peter is in the vents, with nobody beyond him.

W...T...F.

That HUNK/4th Survivor fellow sure gets around. :D
http://ui12.gamespot.com/1387/hunk123489475646_2.jpg

[acealive1]

shutting down the power woulda made it impossibl for them to get into the stores since the security doors are mechanical. they woulda been inside the mall,but no stores would they have gotten into.

[Legion2213]

shutting down the power woulda made it impossibl for them to get into the stores since the security doors are mechanical. they woulda been inside the mall,but no stores would they have gotten into.

Excellent point! So the raiders would achieve nothing except allowing the zombs to re-enter the mall, and a stack of casualties for their "road army"

[acealive1]

Excellent point! So the raiders would achieve nothing except allowing the zombs to re-enter the mall, and a stack of casualties for their "road army"

true. they'd get in and be trapped without peter even having to shoot anyone. cuz they'd get it in,then turn around and see 1,000 zombies at the door way.:lol::lol::lol:

[SRP76]

Only the motors that roll the gates up are electrical. Once the locks are broken, they can lift them manually to get into the stores.

If it were me in there, the looters wouldn't have found anything, anyway. Everything would be upstairs.

Consider the situation. Sure, you've got the mall "locked". But, no matter what, the only thing separating the dead horde from you is a sheet of glass. There's no such thing as feeling "safe". I'd be scared to death to go down into the mall! Wake up in the morning, and every time you go down there, you can't be completely sure that the dead haven't got in during the night.

So, why even chance it? The instant we got the mall cleared, I would have raided everything, and moved it all to the storage area. For one thing, that entire gunshop would have found its way upstairs, no question. I wouldn't have left so much as a pellet of buckshot in that store!

Once I've moved everything that could possibly fit into the "apartment", I would have sealed the stairwell, and never gone down into the mall for the rest of my life.

Cut down on all the risk. Why chance becoming breakfast, when you don't have to?

[Yojimbo]

Only the motors that roll the gates up are electrical. Once the locks are broken, they can lift them manually to get into the stores.

If it were me in there, the looters wouldn't have found anything, anyway. Everything would be upstairs.

Consider the situation. Sure, you've got the mall "locked". But, no matter what, the only thing separating the dead horde from you is a sheet of glass. There's no such thing as feeling "safe". I'd be scared to death to go down into the mall! Wake up in the morning, and every time you go down there, you can't be completely sure that the dead haven't got in during the night.

So, why even chance it? The instant we got the mall cleared, I would have raided everything, and moved it all to the storage area. For one thing, that entire gunshop would have found its way upstairs, no question. I wouldn't have left so much as a pellet of buckshot in that store!

Once I've moved everything that could possibly fit into the "apartment", I would have sealed the stairwell, and never gone down into the mall for the rest of my life.

Cut down on all the risk. Why chance becoming breakfast, when you don't have to?


SRP speaks the truth and makes much sense.

[Legion2213]

SRP speaks the truth and makes much sense.

Agreed. I wouldn't have left all that ammo or any other vital supplies down there either. Accesing the mall via the skylights for various items every now and then would also be an option if you went as far as SRP76 and totally sealed off the starwell.

[Trin]

Funny!! I started a post on this yesterday and didn't finish it. It's all but opposite the stance of staying secluded in the apartment.

Given several months...

I would've gotten in that truck about every two days and driven around the parking lot thinning out the zombies with my bumper. Even if more showed up eventually you'd run out. At that point you could really enhance your structural defenses. You could literally cinder block all the entrances.

Or you could go a different route and make the place look abandoned. Build an enclosure for the helicopter and unblock the doors. Put up fences just inside to keep the few zombie stragglers per day controlled until you could dispatch them. Lots of options.

You could also start expanding your radius outward scouting the area for fuel and additional supplies. If you run into zombies just draw them out where you can deal with them safely. Retreat to the mall if necessary.

Once you get a source for fuel you keep the helicopter full of gas and get a few more ground vehicles in good condition. Then you could really start assessing the areas outward. Scout for a military base, hospital, and airport.

I think that had it just been Peter they would've been fine. He'd taken the precaution of hiding the stairwell. He was ready and willing to just let the bikers roll through and take whatever, then clean up the mess when they were gone.

Stephen screwed it up by firing his gun, then screwed it up even further as a zombie by exposing the stairwell.

[SRP76]

Oh, if I had my optimal situation, I would fill the entire mall with concrete, and be living on top of a huge, impenetrable brick.:D

But, since I'm sure the mall wasn't equipped with about a thousand cement trucks, I'd have to make do with bricking/wooding/stacking debris/everything possible at the stairwell.

I'd be using the roof, too. After filling the storage areas to the gills, I'd start putting stuff on the roof. A huge surface area; I'm sure you could stuff about a third of the entire capacity of the entire mall up there. Cover it with a bunch of tarps, and you're set.

The goal would be to leave the mall as totally empty as humanly possible, to leave a "buffer zone" between the death lurking outside, and you.

[sandrock74]

Shutting off the power and sniping at the bikers as they approached would have changed their minds about attacking the mall. They wouldn't have known where the attack was coming from exactly AND they would be surrounded by zombies in the dark.
I don't care who you are...faced with those odds, who would press onward?

[Yojimbo]

Shutting off the power and sniping at the bikers as they approached would have changed their minds about attacking the mall. They wouldn't have known where the attack was coming from exactly AND they would be surrounded by zombies in the dark.
I don't care who you are...faced with those odds, who would press onward?

I hear what you are saying, but I don't know- I've personally aquainted with some old school biker-dudes. They chase down speed with cheap red wine which makes them virtually fearless and ultra-violent. Doubtless they would not fear the dark, hence their decision to attack at night, presumably because the added element of danger would heighten their fun. You drug a psychopath up the right way and they will attack a tank with a spear!

[jim102016]

I disagree,
Marauders of all stripes throughout the ages are in it for the loot. Demonstrate to them it's going to cost a significant manpower loss and I honestly believe they woulda gone in search of greener pastures. Their boss was a bit clever, he knows replacing any casualties is a difficult proposition. Imagine if the little band in the wall nailed even 6-7 of them on their approach...I think things would've been a lot different. They went hog wild because of the passivity they were shown.

I think it's a case where realism was sacrificed to preserve the anti-consumerism message.

You're assuming they're rational thinkers, like you and I and everyone here. Look at the end of the movie. Stopping to get their blood pressure taken, throwing pies, taking rings off the dead, taking all kinds of stupid unnecessary risks. You can't negociate with lunatics.

[SRP76]

"Should we hit 'em now, or wait 'till tonight?"

"Tonight."

"Heh,heh,heh..."

I think that sums it up. They were going to invade, destroy, and loot the mall, regardless. Their plans were made before they even got on the radio.

[acealive1]

You're assuming they're rational thinkers, like you and I and everyone here. Look at the end of the movie. Stopping to get their blood pressure taken, throwing pies, taking rings off the dead, taking all kinds of stupid unnecessary risks. You can't negociate with lunatics.

EXACTLY my point. they would have been even more complacent and careless had the power been off.

[sandrock74]

Had the power been off and forcing them to wade thru a parking lot full of zombies while dodging a hail of gunfire and molotov cocktails, I'm SURE at least some of them, would have had second thoughts! If nothing else, their overall numbers would have been decreased.
As it is, they encounted NO resistence whatsoever...that embiggened them no doubt.


Embiggened is a perfectly cromulent word.

[Wyldwraith]

I don't think they were rational,
But its human nature to hesitate when it's being amply demonstrated that proceeding just cost half a dozen buddies their lives. My point was if the mall defenders weren't going to put up an active defense then they shoulda disappeared into their hideaway completely. A SWAT officer especially shoulda known that criminals of that type would be greatly emboldened by knowing the opposition just rolled over for them. The bikers probably interpreted it as "they're so scared of us they're off pissing themselves somewhere"

As for the drug angle, I think they woulda been out of speed by then...

[acealive1]

i would have done more than just making a wall at the door way to the back rooms. i would have made a complete wall on the main walk way upstairs before u get to the hallway. hung a nice picture on it too :lol::lol:

[Wyldwraith]

Dawn is the movie that bugs me the most with "What Ifs",
For one thing, it's the only movie where the survivors get along reasonably well..have a great hideous and ridiculously plentiful supplies.

These guys were beaten by raiders not zombies, and the raiders beat them because this wasn't about filming a realistic defense during a zombie apocalypse it was about the culmination of the anti-consumerism message GAR was broadcasting.

Absent GAR stacking the deck against them these people would've survived. How do you know? Change one single significant "What If" and it becomes an *entirely* different scenario.

What if our SWAT boys had drilled everyone until everyone was an excellent shot?

What if the other survivors had managed to get through to Flyboy and help him work through his growing recklessness/death wish issues?

See what I mean? You watch the other movies and you're left feeling like there's a strong possibility even if everyone pulled together and did their best that death could still be very likely.

Night: Ok, everyone's up on the roof out of reach of zombies...no food/water..how do we know the cleanup crew of gun-wielding rednecks wasn't overwhelmed shortly after capping poor Ben? Had the survivors been on the roof they woulda been down with the clean up crew when that happened.

Day: Not touching this one, given the people involved I simply cannot imagine them pulling together in the necessary manner. That group's dysfunction ran a LOT deeper than personality conflict.

Land: World full of 7.9 billion zombies...eventually even minus the "Big Daddy Phenomena" they were going to exhaust the towns within reach. Fiddler's Green didn't seem to possess a self-sustaining food supply.

But Dawn...nigh-endless supplies given the small group, effectively routing the raiders before the Mall was breached would've left the status quo intact.

(The re-make is even worse about this. They left for the stupidest reasoning I could conceive of)

Just my .02

[Bertors]

I think the smartest thing would have been to contact them ahead of time when the bikers first made contact...give them what they wanted...there was plenty to go around and at least everyone would have remained safe. Peter, Flyboy and Fran took it way to seriously...but that was the point consumerism...the items become the most important thing. Like victims of tornadoes just remember at least everyone was safe...things can be replaced but people can't

When the STUFF becomes the most important thing in our lives something is wrong!

Exactly. That was the point Romero tried to make. If Flyboy would have stayed cool instead of getting angry at the bikers for taking away "his" stuff, they could just have sat out the biker-invasion.

[SRP76]

I doubt riding it out was an option, anyway. They were doomed.

In the context of Romero's hating, Flyboy's just all about the greed. But in a real world context, there is the safety issue:

Once the bikers got into the mall, our heroes are dead meat. If they just retreat and let the bikers have the mall, the bikers break every lock, smash every gate, and let in hundreds of the dead. Once they leave, the only thing between our heroes and a hot lunch is a flimsy false wall. NOT GOOD.

From that point, the mall is no longer safe. The heroes' lives will then be at risk 24 hours a day, forever.

It's more than "stuff"; their lives are at stake.

[Trin]

I don't think they were doomed. I think the bikers would leave as soon as they grabbed the most accessible stuff. They were clearly in a hit and run mode. I don't think the bikers were about to take the time to do an exhaustive search that would've uncovered the stairs.

Once the bikers leave the crew can sit in their upstairs apartment no worse off then when they landed. Sure there are zombies in the mall again, but even before the flimsy wall the zombies didn't go up the stairs. With the wall in place they could've stayed a while and assessed their options. They could try to re-secure the mall or just barricade the single door and live off of the supplies they had.

I also think Stephen was not motivated by greed but by territoriality. The basic male need to protect your turf.

As far as which movie was most survivable, I think Land had better long term potential than Dawn. Land had well equipped soldiers, a trained scavenger group, and enough people to relieve one another. And there simply weren't enough zombies in the immediate area to pose a threat. There is no reason they couldn't have survived indefinitely.

Dawn suffered from having only 3 people. Even the best stocked mall/civil shelter is going to run out of food, and they had absolutely no way to scavenge for more.

[SRP76]

Sure there are zombies in the mall again, but even before the flimsy wall the zombies didn't go up the stairs. With the wall in place they could've stayed a while and assessed their options. They could try to re-secure the mall or just barricade the single door and live off of the supplies they had.



Fran got attacked up there. And, in the original script, their "haven" got invaded by another deadhead while they were sitting around talking. As Peter said when Roger mentioned them not getting through, "enough of them will". It would only be a matter of time.

As far as scavenging, they did have a helicopter.

Speaking of which, I want to know: why did it never occur to these fools to take a quick flight to a deserted strip somewhere to get more fuel for the helicopter?! Allowing it to sit there and just rot on an empty tank is ridiculous.

Most survivable movie:

I have to agree, the folks in Land had the best thing going. Fewer zombies attacking a city than there were attacking a single house in Night (:p), the invincible Dead Reckoning, miraculously fully-stocked towns nearby (anyone notice how the liquor store was completely untouched, and looked like the stockboy had only left 5 minutes ago?), plenty of weaponry...

[jim102016]

Fran got attacked up there. And, in the original script, their "haven" got invaded by another deadhead while they were sitting around talking. As Peter said when Roger mentioned them not getting through, "enough of them will". It would only be a matter of time.

As far as scavenging, they did have a helicopter.

Speaking of which, I want to know: why did it never occur to these fools to take a quick flight to a deserted strip somewhere to get more fuel for the helicopter?! Allowing it to sit there and just rot on an empty tank is ridiculous.

Most survivable movie:

I have to agree, the folks in Land had the best thing going. Fewer zombies attacking a city than there were attacking a single house in Night (:p), the invincible Dead Reckoning, miraculously fully-stocked towns nearby (anyone notice how the liquor store was completely untouched, and looked like the stockboy had only left 5 minutes ago?), plenty of weaponry...


Good question about the fuel. I guess they didn't know the area all that well. Or, they were too busy to see the bigger picture. To go scouting around would have used even more gas that they could not afford to lose.

[sandrock74]

I think they were afraid of using up too much fuel (they only ever stated they were "low", that is a subjective term) OR they got complacent when they took over the mall. They essentially gave up.
I think Rogers death took the wind out of their collective sails.

[SymphonicX]

...and just to think that Peter pre-empted the whole thing

"that chopper could give us away if someone comes messing around"

[jim102016]

I don't think they were doomed. I think the bikers would leave as soon as they grabbed the most accessible stuff. They were clearly in a hit and run mode. I don't think the bikers were about to take the time to do an exhaustive search that would've uncovered the stairs.

Once the bikers leave the crew can sit in their upstairs apartment no worse off then when they landed. Sure there are zombies in the mall again, but even before the flimsy wall the zombies didn't go up the stairs. With the wall in place they could've stayed a while and assessed their options. They could try to re-secure the mall or just barricade the single door and live off of the supplies they had.

I also think Stephen was not motivated by greed but by territoriality. The basic male need to protect your turf.

As far as which movie was most survivable, I think Land had better long term potential than Dawn. Land had well equipped soldiers, a trained scavenger group, and enough people to relieve one another. And there simply weren't enough zombies in the immediate area to pose a threat. There is no reason they couldn't have survived indefinitely.

Dawn suffered from having only 3 people. Even the best stocked mall/civil shelter is going to run out of food, and they had absolutely no way to scavenge for more.


While they had a great setup in Land, they certainly had their weak points. Looking at the vehicle storage lot situation alone, which was a defensive disaster, it's obvious that some holes were not plugged well enough. The soldiers there were too comfortable, and who ever was in charge of physical security spent too much time at his desk when he should have been out checking the perimeter.

[Trin]

While they had a great setup in Land, they certainly had their weak points. Looking at the vehicle storage lot situation alone, which was a defensive disaster, it's obvious that some holes were not plugged well enough. The soldiers there were too comfortable, and who ever was in charge of physical security spent too much time at his desk when he should have been out checking the perimeter.
That points to the exact reason why they had it better. They weren't being attacked. They were comfortable because the area around them was virtually devoid of threats. No zombies, no competing survival outposts - nothing. They'd gone a very long time without having to worry about defenses. They could've been farming, or rebuilding civil infrastructure, or just about anything.

I still think in Dawn they had options after the biker attack had they hidden. The zombies wouldn't have recognized the fake wall quickly enough to be an immediate threat, if they ever figured it out. The reason Fran got attacked was becasue Stephen came out of the stairwell in sight of several zombies. It was clear they'd never gone up the stairs before that.

In Dawn they would've had a difficult time scavenging. A pregnant woman, a helicopter pilot, and a swat guy. It would've been easy to get overwhelmed. Even in Land with all their resources things got dicey without their fireworks.

[hadrian0117]

...I have to agree, the folks in Land had the best thing going. Fewer zombies attacking a city than there were attacking a single house in Night...

I still think that the cast of Night had the best chance for survival of all four movies. They would've been fine if they worked together and stayed in the house until morning. Cooper's daughter would still have been a problem, but after she turned she'd probally only manage to get one person (Mr or Mrs Cooper or Judy) before someone shot her. Her father would've been a problem unless he was the one she attacked.

[jim102016]

That points to the exact reason why they had it better. They weren't being attacked. They were comfortable because the area around them was virtually devoid of threats. No zombies, no competing survival outposts - nothing. They'd gone a very long time without having to worry about defenses. They could've been farming, or rebuilding civil infrastructure, or just about anything.

I still think in Dawn they had options after the biker attack had they hidden. The zombies wouldn't have recognized the fake wall quickly enough to be an immediate threat, if they ever figured it out. The reason Fran got attacked was becasue Stephen came out of the stairwell in sight of several zombies. It was clear they'd never gone up the stairs before that.

In Dawn they would've had a difficult time scavenging. A pregnant woman, a helicopter pilot, and a swat guy. It would've been easy to get overwhelmed. Even in Land with all their resources things got dicey without their fireworks.


Not having a constant threat turned their readiness into mush. The simple fact that an essential area like motor pool was allowed to rot away defensively showed how much their fortress was an illusion.

[Trin]

I agree. They were lax. And the motor pool was the least of their problems. Don't get me started about the unguarded unfenced river banks.

But we're not talking about how much the people made of their situation. The premise was put forth as "even if everyone pulled together and did their best."

If they did their best in Land they could've defended against Big Daddy and 5 times the number of zombies he scraped together without getting out of their lawnchairs.

I like the survivability of Night as well, but only if we are aware that help will arrive in the morning. If they were truly on their own indefinitely they had a much harder time ahead of them.

[jim102016]

I agree. They were lax. And the motor pool was the least of their problems. Don't get me started about the unguarded unfenced river banks.

But we're not talking about how much the people made of their situation. The premise was put forth as "even if everyone pulled together and did their best."

If they did their best in Land they could've defended against Big Daddy and 5 times the number of zombies he scraped together without getting out of their lawnchairs.

I like the survivability of Night as well, but only if we are aware that help will arrive in the morning. If they were truly on their own indefinitely they had a much harder time ahead of them.

But, they DID pull together in Land....more so than in any of the other movies in order to put together a safe refuge. But, they did not go far enough. I don't think it's a fair playing field comparing the different situations.

Like you said, help arrived in the morning in Night. The people within the Green had outside forces within the mutated short bus to bail them out. While there was unity in Dawn compared to Day, internal problems led to both their downfalls.

[Trin]

I'm not sure what your point is jim. Are you saying that Dawn was more survivable because the people in Land were lazy? And that lax attitude was a foregone conclusion of their situation?

I guess the way I see it if we can play what-if to have the Dawn crew repel the biker invasion of the mall it's just as easy to believe that Riley could've forced Kaufman to institute better defenses against growing zombie intelligence.

My point is that Land had more to work with and if the survivors in both movies had used their resources to their best ability Land results in the better situation.

Another interesting thing to consider is that at the end of Land there isn't any remaining conflict. The only zombies that were a threat walked away. The human's survival was all but guaranteed.

[dracenstein]

If I was on the roof of the Mall and had a rifle, I would have started shooting. It doesn't really matter if I kill any of them, if one biker went down (dead, wounded, damaged bike) it would likely take one or two more down with him.

The closer to the Mall I knock a bike over, the more zombies the fallen rider has to deal with. If a biker stops to provide covering fire, nail him.

Even if they do get in, their numbers would be depleted.

And if you had Molotov cocktails already made, and in easy reach, drop them on the vans.

Sure it would piss them off, but I would rather stop them getting into the Mall than wait for them to go, then refortify the doors and go on another zombie hunt to clean the mall out. Especially if a raider or two manages to hide themselves away waiting for you to do that. The first thing you know about a raider still being there could be a bullet or knife in the back.

[DubiousComforts]

...and just to think that Peter pre-empted the whole thing

"that chopper could give us away if someone comes messing around"
It's irony and there are heavy doses of it in every Romero movie.

In NIGHT, Ben warns Helen Cooper about Karen twice, and he is ignored both times. It's no mistake that she dies the most horrible death of all at the hands of her ghoul-daughter.

In DAWN, Fran warns Stephen about being "hypnotized" by the mall, yet that's what ultimately gets him killed. Do you think the dumb-ass bikers would have even thought to look in the air shafts while they were busy stealing useless items like money and televisions?

[dracenstein]

In DAWN, Fran warns Stephen about being "hypnotized" by the mall, yet that's what ultimately gets him killed. Do you think the dumb-ass bikers would have even thought to look in the air shafts while they were busy stealing useless items like money and televisions?

The money wouldn't be useless, they could buy their way into Fiddler's Green, and become scavengers for Kaufman.

[clanglee]

Ah, comedy.. . . . I hope.:lol:

[DubiousComforts]

The money wouldn't be useless, they could buy their way into Fiddler's Green, and become scavengers for Kaufman.
Blades could have done that if he didn't go an' get hisself killed. :p