Is Miguel A Fool?

[SRP76]

After watching Day again, I found myself wondering why Miguel wasn't shot in the first 2 seconds of the film.

Yes, I know he's the resident screwup, but the ONE scene that stands out to me, is when he let the zombies into the complex.

It is supposed to be some kind of "powerful moment", or some crap, but the sheer stupidity of this action defies all logic. Exactly WHAT was that idiot attempting to accomplish by this?!

Every other time a character does something ridiculous, it can be attributed to something. But Miguel's "sacrifice (oh, boo-hoo)" made no sense whatsoever. If he wanted to croak, there are easier ways. I just can't see any reason for helping the dead invade the complex, and eat all his comrades (including his woman).

Am I alone in this? Or do others find themselves watching this scene and going, "WTF?!" too?

[MaximusIncredulous]

I think the guy cracked up. He felt overwhelmed by circumstances outside, oppression by his fellow soldiers (justified or not some of it was racially motivated), and a sense of rebuke by the civilian survivors. I think these things made him turn psychotic and, in his mind, he probably saw visions of everyone regarding his body (after popping himself) with the same contempt they felt for him while he was alive. So one reason for letting the dead in could be revenge triggered by his psychosis. But why allow himself to be devoured by the dead? This still mystifies me especially in light of being bitten in the arm. After the bite he knew how painful it would be to be killed by these things and perversely I think that's what attracted him to that end. Maybe as atonement for his weaknesses or maybe so he could become what he was so afraid of. Prolonged periods of fear can do strange things to the mind.

Anyway that's all I can think of for my quack diagnosis on this guy.

BTW does anyone know where Miguel stayed around the complex after Sarah kicked him out? I don't think he went back to the soldiers. Did he sleep in a crate?

[acealive1]

to be honest, i woulda shot him as soon as he stepped off the chopper at the beginning

[slickwilly13]

The only 2 things I can come up with.

1. He went too far over the edge and decided to kill everyone. Kind of like a certain zombie comic book.

NOTLD: London book 2 The priest goes over the edge at the end and opens the gate. He kills himself along with the entire British royal family.

2. He over heard what was going on. And decided since his friends were as good as dead, he would get back at Rhodes and company.

[clanglee]

He went bonkers, nutso, spoon in his ass crazy.

[SRP76]

spoon in his ass crazy.

Possible Quote of the Year candidate.:lol:

[acealive1]

Possible Quote of the Year candidate.:lol:



:lol:

[clanglee]

thank you thank you, I'd like to thank the academy.

[DubiousComforts]

He went bonkers, nutso, spoon in his ass crazy.
Ha ha, why is a "spoon in the ass" considered crazy and not some other kitchen utensil? I think "ice cream scoop in the ass crazy" would be way off the hook, yo.

Miguel was not only insane at the end, but it was in his insanity that he finally took definitive action. Kind of ironic when you consider that his character could do nothing right throughout the rest of the film.

[ProfessorChaos]

yeah, wtf, miguel? you're the only dude who's gettin' any female lovin, yet you are the whiniest little b!tch in the complex...:rolleyes:

this always bothered me. he should be the happiest guy there, since he's the only one getting laid anymore.

[AcesandEights]

Nah, he was clearly unstable and several factors, like the inevitable doom he felt hanging over their heads, led him to act in an irrational, indeed, insane manner.

[Trencher]

He wanted them all to die as painfully as possible. He was not compleatly crazy he was evil.

[Trin]

Day was filled with overtones of humans cracking under pressure. Dr. Logan, Rhodes, and Miguel all exhibit behaviors that are psychotic to some level. Prior to being bitten I didn't feel like Miguel's behavior was any worse than the others. Even Sarah was popping pills to keep it together.

After being bitten the man suffered from high fever which often results in delusional perception. And they knew it. Remember that John was supposed to be keeping an eye on him at the time he went off.

I also saw some religious and nihilistic shades to Miguel's actions. Perhaps in his twisted mental state he saw his actions as cleansing the human race in favor of the new species. It appeared to me he was offering himself for judgement.

Or if that's looking too deep for ya, there's always spoon in the ass... In any case I thought it worked well enough to be realistic, fool or not.

[Yojimbo]

Probably all of us at one time or another had to deal with a guy like Miguel. Vindictive little whiny pissants. I spit on Miguel. His "suicide" at the end was just a further demonstration of how selfish and unlikable he was probably before and certainly after the ghoul bit him.

As for the racial overtones - I view that as a figment of his quite unlikable character. If he was unlikable and chubby, they would have called him fat-ass. If he was unlikable and bald, maybe baldy, or hairless dog, no-hair retard or whatever. Not that the fellow soldiers were nice or balanced mind you, I am certainly not defending their foul treatment of him or the use of the racial epithets, but I think that you are what you make of yourself. And being a little whiny pissant of any race, color or creed will certainly not make you one of the cool kids, and will not help you make friends.

His stupidity and lameness nearly got Rickles killed. And his inattention got himself chomped. Ain't Karma a bitch? So, woe is me, I am going to bring down the machine with me! Pathetic and lame.

And on top of it all, the Professor is right! He was the only one with a steady girl in the whole complex, and hell, maybe the whole world at that time. So unless she was a real sea hag and drove him to be such a butt-head (clearly not the case) he had more reasons to be happy than anyone around him.

[Trin]

And on top of it all, the Professor is right! He was the only one with a steady girl in the whole complex, and hell, maybe the whole world at that time. So unless she was a real sea hag and drove him to be such a butt-head (clearly not the case) he had more reasons to be happy than anyone around him.
There's one chick left on the face of the known earth and you guys think she wouldn't be a complete pain in the ass?

The real world would like a word with you. :p:lol:

[Yojimbo]

There's one chick left on the face of the known earth and you guys think she wouldn't be a complete pain in the ass?

The real world would like a word with you. :p:lol:

Hilarious!

[Legion2213]

What a complete and utter COCK! I would've blown Miguel away as soon as the oportunity presented itself (I bet Peter from Dawn would have done as well).

It comes to something when a little Irish alcoholic (McDermott) is more use in a firefight, more dependable and generally braver than you. Hell, I'd rather have Steel or Rhodes at my back than Miguel!

Great thread fella! :D

[Trin]

I'd put a cap in Dr. Logan or Rhodes before Miguel. Dr. Logan did as much to set off the situation as Miguel, and Rhodes just needed a gun in the mouth.

Miguel seemed like he could be rehabilitated with a little rest, as Sarah suggested. The others were beyond fixing.

[AcesandEights]

I'd put a cap in Dr. Logan or Rhodes before Miguel. Dr. Logan did as much to set off the situation as Miguel, and Rhodes just needed a gun in the mouth.


Agreed!

[sandrock74]

I've got you ALL beat!
After the helicopter took off, I would have opened the door and PUSHED Miguel out over the dead city BEFORE even going back to base! If anyone bothered to question what happened to him, just say, "He didn't make it."

[SRP76]

I've got you ALL beat!
After the helicopter took off, I would have opened the door and PUSHED Miguel out over the dead city BEFORE even going back to base! If anyone bothered to question what happened to him, just say, "He didn't make it."

Now, there's an idea.:lol:

I'm wondering what in the world Sarah found attractive about the loser. As the only female, she could have got with anybody in the cave, yet she selects the screwup of the crew (who happens to look like a bruised turd, on top of it).

[slickwilly13]

Is it just me or does the guy who played Miguel seem gay? The way he talks, acts, and even walks.

[AcesandEights]

Is it just me or does the guy who played Miguel seem gay? The way he talks, acts, and even walks.

:rockbrow:

[slickwilly13]

Seriously, watch it again. I didn't notice it at first, until 2 of my friends pointed it out. Keep in mind, I am not talking about The character Miguel, but the actual actor who plays him.

[jim102016]

Who's to say they got the infection in time by cutting off his arm? Maybe he realized they didn't get it, and he just said f*ck it after Captain Jamaica ran off with his Uzi?

[Yojimbo]

Now, there's an idea.:lol:

I'm wondering what in the world Sarah found attractive about the loser. As the only female, she could have got with anybody in the cave, yet she selects the screwup of the crew (who happens to look like a bruised turd, on top of it).

Maybe he was the only one wussy enough to make her feel like a man? I don't know, but sometimes really strong women seek out subserviant types to kiss their ass and feed their ego, just as the girls that macho men oft choose are brainless and obediant. Just a thought.


Seriously, watch it again. I didn't notice it at first, until 2 of my friends pointed it out. Keep in mind, I am not talking about The character Miguel, but the actual actor who plays him.

Yeah, my wife pointed this out to me too, and I hadn't noticed until then. Maybe it is a figment of his character's cowardly nature (not to equate homosexuality with cowardice, but you know what I mean) but once it was pointed out to me the actor did come off as a little gay to me too.

[acealive1]

Maybe he was the only one wussy enough to make her feel like a man? I don't know, but sometimes really strong women seek out subserviant types to kiss their ass and feed their ego, just as the girls that macho men oft choose are brainless and obediant. Just a thought.




it seems women love guys who are a lil.....*hangs wrist*

[sandrock74]

HAHAHAHAHA!!
Poor Sarah would have chosen the gay guy. Why do some women do that?

[clanglee]

Is it just me or does the guy who played Miguel seem gay? The way he talks, acts, and even walks.

I've noticed that too. I always thought that was a bad casting choice.

[jim102016]

I've noticed that too. I always thought that was a bad casting choice.

Sarah had to have someone to talk to, Miguel was the closest thing to a woman down there if you believe he's a bit on the fruity side. And he had a pecker too, so she lucked out. She probably would have been happy with a trans-sexual.

I never thought about it before, with so many other good characters, I hardly ever pay attention to Miguel.

[Trin]

He wasn't gay. Honestly, did you see how drab the walls were?

[acealive1]

He wasn't gay. Honestly, did you see how drab the walls were?

:lol::lol::lol:

[clanglee]

:lol: Doesn't the military have a don't ask don't tell policy anyways?

[Doc]

:lol: Doesn't the military have a don't ask don't tell policy anyways? Good golly I though that was a joke. I didn't know that was actually true:lol:. UHG! Miguel is my least favorite character in Day and the only actor who though was overacting, like many people who hate Day say.

[acealive1]

:lol: Doesn't the military have a don't ask don't tell policy anyways?


yes they do,but people find ways to know which is a shame. cuz i dont care what a guy or girl is,if they can keep me alive and vice versa,i wouldnt care if they were a gay racist with ties to the KKK.

but the military hunders progress,cuz what if the one gay guy u kick out knows houw to speak arabic?

[sandrock74]

Miguel CAN'T be gay! He was a HORRIBLE dresser! And his personal cleanliness...there's just no way.

[Marie]

but the military hunders progress,cuz what if the one gay guy u kick out knows houw to speak arabic?

Don't you understand that they CAN'T allow Gay recruits to stay in, men are skeered somebody might be looking at them the way they look at female recruits.

Did I lay on the sarcasm heavy enough?

M_

[DjfunkmasterG]

Miguel looks gayer than a handbasket full of rainbows. :D

[Huescacho]

I don't think that Miguel was a gay, only was a man overruned by the situation. Is Miguel a coward?. Could be it.

[Mike70]

great how fast a thread can take a sudden turn toward off-topic land isn't it? from fool to gay in like 3 posts.:p

i don't think miguel was a fool. just someone in pain and suffering. clinically depressed-yes. needing a long, medicated rest in restrictive clothing-yes. a good candidate for shock treatment-definitely. a fool. no.

[DjfunkmasterG]

I don't mean Miguel as in the character being Gay... I think the actor who plays him is Gay. No biggie if he is, but it is an observance I did make over the course of watching Day of the Dead these past few years.

[Mike70]

I don't mean Miguel as in the character being Gay... I think the actor who plays him is Gay. No biggie if he is, but it is an observance I did make over the course of watching Day of the Dead these past few years.


since there is so little info out there he very well could be in real life.

here is a piece of an interview he gave horrorweb about opening the gate and letting in the zombies:

"HW: Well, while we're on opinion and death... a lot of people, when they first see the movie, question when you go up and let the zombies in. They sit in awe, 'why did he do that?' Why do you think the character did that... I know what I think, but I want to know what you think.
Antone: Well, I'll tell you, but then you'll have to tell me what you think.
HW: Deal
Antone: Hmmm... it seems that, just like I said before - the very people that I'm trying to live with and survive with, have turned into the very thing we're trying to protect ourselves from. The spirituality and religionosity of that character realizes it is the end. It's like someone has to sacrifice themselves and bring this madness to a halt. That's pretty much why I let them in. I'm up to my ears. It's not really a personal suicide type thing, I bring them down for a reason. A lot of people might think it's vengeance and all that stuff, but it's not. I see the character from my point of view and I saw it as right, the correct to do that, because they have turned into very heartless, selfserving, and really not connected to what we are as human beings. What kind of souls are left that abuse each other in such hideous ways, as we see through the entire film. So I let them in and sacrificed myself for the - what I think - is the betterment of mankind in general. End this madness. Let it just cease. So what did you think?
HW: Actually very close to you. I felt that Miguel did it because the surviving humans had pretty much degraded themselves to being more dangerous to each other than the zombies were..
Antone: yeah, that's exactly right.
HW: With them being more dangerous than the zombies, these are not the people that should survive to continue the human race. So very similar to you
Antone: Right, but I'm also hearing that they're going to be shooting each other, my lover, and friends - as I'm lying there in this 'state' waiting to see if I'm going to become a zombie. So right. They're going about destroying each other and where do they think they're going to escape to? That's the laughable part. There's only so much gas a helicopter can hold. There's only so much distance you can go. And if you have no idea where you're going to set down... your helicopter, your body, your soul, everything is going to run out of gas."


this is from the same interview series that i posted in the thread "an excellent series of interviews" given to horrorweb in 04.

[jim102016]

:lol: Doesn't the military have a don't ask don't tell policy anyways?

It didn't exist in the mid-80s, it was a Clinton-era compromise. Just another example of someone who's never served trying to make the military like liberal America.


yes they do,but people find ways to know which is a shame. cuz i dont care what a guy or girl is,if they can keep me alive and vice versa,i wouldnt care if they were a gay racist with ties to the KKK.

but the military hunders progress,cuz what if the one gay guy u kick out knows houw to speak arabic?

America is ironic because although society is somewhat liberal it is also homophobic. Considering the military reflects society's homophobia, how is it a surprise they're still not able to serve openly?

[acealive1]

It didn't exist in the mid-80s, it was a Clinton-era compromise. Just another example of someone who's never served trying to make the military like liberal America.



America is ironic because although society is somewhat liberal it is also homophobic. Considering the military reflects society's homophobia, how is it a surprise they're still not able to serve openly?


it'd be good if people could serve openly with no penalties. we wouldnt be a nation without all different people helping to build it.

its hypocracy at it's finest because a cousin of mine was a cross dresser but was in the military for like 40 years and no one either knew or cared.

also.....j edgar hoover was the head of the FBI and loved womens clothes......so why the backlash on gay people?

[jim102016]

it'd be good if people could serve openly with no penalties. we wouldnt be a nation without all different people helping to build it.

its hypocracy at it's finest because a cousin of mine was a cross dresser but was in the military for like 40 years and no one either knew or cared.

also.....j edgar hoover was the head of the FBI and loved womens clothes......so why the backlash on gay people?

Its not a sudden thing, gays have always been persecuted through out history. In an ideal world, there'd be no problem as long as they could hack it I guess. But, those people trying to shove it down the military's throught just to make a political statement or gain fame aren't facing reality, their causing more harm than good.

[acealive1]

Its not a sudden thing, gays have always been persecuted through out history. In an ideal world, there'd be no problem as long as they could hack it I guess. But, those people trying to shove it down the military's throught just to make a political statement or gain fame aren't facing reality, their causing more harm than good.


so is it self hate if the government doesnt allow gays knowing theres prominent people in high places that are gay?

[clanglee]

It didn't exist in the mid-80s, it was a Clinton-era compromise. Just another example of someone who's never served trying to make the military like liberal America.

?

Wow, I was making a joke. :rolleyes: So serious. :rockbrow:

[jim102016]

so is it self hate if the government doesnt allow gays knowing theres prominent people in high places that are gay?

All I'm saying is that everyone likes to point fingers at Uncle Sam for "hating gays" when society can't even get a grip on something like gay marriage. Until a homophobic society relaxes its ass muscles, open gays in uniform are going to be viewed as a disruption to good order and discipline.
It's a catch-22, that'll take a long time to iron out.

[acealive1]

All I'm saying is that everyone likes to point fingers at Uncle Sam for "hating gays" when society can't even get a grip on something like gay marriage. Until a homophobic society relaxes its ass muscles, open gays in uniform are going to be viewed as a disruption to good order and discipline.
It's a catch-22, that'll take a long time to iron out.

yet they let iraqi sympathizers into the military. u see where that got them. some coverted muslim decided to roll grenades into tents when everyone was sleeping

[jim102016]

yet they let iraqi sympathizers into the military. u see where that got them. some coverted muslim decided to roll grenades into tents when everyone was sleeping

Nothing new, ex-Nazis set up NASA and were valuable assets during the Cold War.

I think you should enlist, I'll go back in with you!:lol:

[acealive1]

Nothing new, ex-Nazis set up NASA and were valuable assets during the Cold War.

I think you should enlist, I'll go back in with you!:lol:

never been to the military and im not ever going. not enough money to go get my head blown off.

[ProfessorChaos]

but they'll pay you to blow off other people's heads....:elol:

[acealive1]

but they'll pay you to blow off other people's heads....:elol:


eh no thanks. if im going to fight in a war,i want to at least like what im fighting for and be able to get it free. the idea of fighting an oil war and still having to pay for gas is just crazy. so no im not going.

[jim102016]

eh no thanks. if im going to fight in a war,i want to at least like what im fighting for and be able to get it free. the idea of fighting an oil war and still having to pay for gas is just crazy. so no im not going.

Looks like Miguel was a better man than we gave him credit for.


eh no thanks. if im going to fight in a war,i want to at least like what im fighting for and be able to get it free. the idea of fighting an oil war and still having to pay for gas is just crazy. so no im not going.

Like what you're fighting for? Man, you missed the boat and fell off the dock on that one.

[acealive1]

Looks like Miguel was a better man than we gave him credit for.



Like what you're fighting for? Man, you missed the boat and fell off the dock on that one.


ok so you go then. im not fighting an invisible army so some texas dullard who happens to be the president of the states can sit back and watch his bank account grow. "brave" my ass. who are we fighting?

[jim102016]

ok so you go then. im not fighting an invisible army so some texas dullard who happens to be the president of the states can sit back and watch his bank account grow. "brave" my ass. who are we fighting?

I see your point, well taken. But, if everyone felt that way, there'd be no one in uniform at all. Not everyone loves every president, not everyone loves every policy the military has, etc. Those in the ranks aren't always happy, but somebody has to stand guard on the wall every day regardless. For instance, I didn't care for a certain draft dodger as commander-in-chief but what can you do?

[acealive1]

I see your point, well taken. But, if everyone felt that way, there'd be no one in uniform at all. Not everyone loves every president, not everyone loves every policy the military has, etc. Those in the ranks aren't always happy, but somebody has to stand guard on the wall every day regardless. For instance, I didn't care for a certain draft dodger as commander-in-chief but what can you do?


well said,bro. also, i thought u couldnt go AWOL and even hold a job at mc donalds after. yet someone becomes president. real nice.


i see it like this,theres not enough money they make a year to go get shot for free. they have billion dollar contracts with the government and can only afford like 45,000 a year per soldier. i smell a rat. also,if they mention the word "draft",im gone.

[Wyldwraith]

Here's my problem and my outrage,
There should be no need to say this but I will anyways. I'm heterosexual, happily married to a lovely woman 8yrs my junior and have only know three people who happened to be homosexual/bisexual well in my whole life.

We have people who feel a love for their nation, powerful enough to make them willing to lay down their lives in service to that great love. People willing to wade through horrors and witness atrocities that would make most of us start screaming and never want to stop, all so we can sleep peacefully in our nice warm beds watching our favorite programs Tivo recorded for us.

It is an offense to the ideals we as Americans profess to stand for that these brave men and women should ever be made to feel anything besides our deep and abiding respect, along with boundless gratitude for the sacrifices they make.

I despise the current Operation Iraqi Oil Liberation as much as the next anti-gun control hardcore liberal. I have nothing but respect, gratitude and awe-inspiring admiration for all our service people. How can it not disgust us as a nation that such patriots are treated so unjustly?

Oh, Miguel was definitely a fool. Feeding yourself to zombies? Yea, ok.

[Zombie Snack]

The character of miguel was a mentally shatered, weak, defeated soldier.
The actor that portrayed miguel was a FAIRY!!!

[jim102016]

well said,bro. also, i thought u couldnt go AWOL and even hold a job at mc donalds after. yet someone becomes president. real nice.


i see it like this,theres not enough money they make a year to go get shot for free. they have billion dollar contracts with the government and can only afford like 45,000 a year per soldier. i smell a rat. also,if they mention the word "draft",im gone.

Had he run to Canada or posed for a picture on a North Vietnamese anti-aircraft gun, I don't think he would have been elected. Altering some paperwork after he'd been trained wouldn't have been so hard.


Here's my problem and my outrage,
There should be no need to say this but I will anyways. I'm heterosexual, happily married to a lovely woman 8yrs my junior and have only know three people who happened to be homosexual/bisexual well in my whole life.

We have people who feel a love for their nation, powerful enough to make them willing to lay down their lives in service to that great love. People willing to wade through horrors and witness atrocities that would make most of us start screaming and never want to stop, all so we can sleep peacefully in our nice warm beds watching our favorite programs Tivo recorded for us.

It is an offense to the ideals we as Americans profess to stand for that these brave men and women should ever be made to feel anything besides our deep and abiding respect, along with boundless gratitude for the sacrifices they make.

I despise the current Operation Iraqi Oil Liberation as much as the next anti-gun control hardcore liberal. I have nothing but respect, gratitude and awe-inspiring admiration for all our service people. How can it not disgust us as a nation that such patriots are treated so unjustly?

Oh, Miguel was definitely a fool. Feeding yourself to zombies? Yea, ok.


Anti-gun control hardcore liberal? I see what you're saying, but society's attitude has to change as a whole first. It is a shame, it'll take some time.

Miguel was an idiot, he should have died helping John save Sarah and McDermott.

[Mike70]

again, here is the actor who played miguel talking about the moment he opens the gate and his characters rationale for doing so.

"HW: Well, while we're on opinion and death... a lot of people, when they first see the movie, question when you go up and let the zombies in. They sit in awe, 'why did he do that?' Why do you think the character did that... I know what I think, but I want to know what you think.
Antone: Well, I'll tell you, but then you'll have to tell me what you think.
HW: Deal
Antone: Hmmm... it seems that, just like I said before - the very people that I'm trying to live with and survive with, have turned into the very thing we're trying to protect ourselves from. The spirituality and religionosity of that character realizes it is the end. It's like someone has to sacrifice themselves and bring this madness to a halt. That's pretty much why I let them in. I'm up to my ears. It's not really a personal suicide type thing, I bring them down for a reason. A lot of people might think it's vengeance and all that stuff, but it's not. I see the character from my point of view and I saw it as right, the correct to do that, because they have turned into very heartless, selfserving, and really not connected to what we are as human beings. What kind of souls are left that abuse each other in such hideous ways, as we see through the entire film. So I let them in and sacrificed myself for the - what I think - is the betterment of mankind in general. End this madness. Let it just cease. So what did you think?
HW: Actually very close to you. I felt that Miguel did it because the surviving humans had pretty much degraded themselves to being more dangerous to each other than the zombies were..
Antone: yeah, that's exactly right.
HW: With them being more dangerous than the zombies, these are not the people that should survive to continue the human race. So very similar to you
Antone: Right, but I'm also hearing that they're going to be shooting each other, my lover, and friends - as I'm lying there in this 'state' waiting to see if I'm going to become a zombie. So right. They're going about destroying each other and where do they think they're going to escape to? That's the laughable part. There's only so much gas a helicopter can hold. There's only so much distance you can go. And if you have no idea where you're going to set down... your helicopter, your body, your soul, everything is going to run out of gas."


italics added by me.

maybe we can get back on the topic of miguel and his actions or maybe a moderator should lockout this thread. seems like the gays in the military discussion should be its own thread in general discussion.

[jim102016]

again, here is the actor who played miguel talking about the moment he opens the gate and his characters rationale for doing so.

"HW: Well, while we're on opinion and death... a lot of people, when they first see the movie, question when you go up and let the zombies in. They sit in awe, 'why did he do that?' Why do you think the character did that... I know what I think, but I want to know what you think.
Antone: Well, I'll tell you, but then you'll have to tell me what you think.
HW: Deal
Antone: Hmmm... it seems that, just like I said before - the very people that I'm trying to live with and survive with, have turned into the very thing we're trying to protect ourselves from. The spirituality and religionosity of that character realizes it is the end. It's like someone has to sacrifice themselves and bring this madness to a halt. That's pretty much why I let them in. I'm up to my ears. It's not really a personal suicide type thing, I bring them down for a reason. A lot of people might think it's vengeance and all that stuff, but it's not. I see the character from my point of view and I saw it as right, the correct to do that, because they have turned into very heartless, selfserving, and really not connected to what we are as human beings. What kind of souls are left that abuse each other in such hideous ways, as we see through the entire film. So I let them in and sacrificed myself for the - what I think - is the betterment of mankind in general. End this madness. Let it just cease. So what did you think?
HW: Actually very close to you. I felt that Miguel did it because the surviving humans had pretty much degraded themselves to being more dangerous to each other than the zombies were..
Antone: yeah, that's exactly right.
HW: With them being more dangerous than the zombies, these are not the people that should survive to continue the human race. So very similar to you
Antone: Right, but I'm also hearing that they're going to be shooting each other, my lover, and friends - as I'm lying there in this 'state' waiting to see if I'm going to become a zombie. So right. They're going about destroying each other and where do they think they're going to escape to? That's the laughable part. There's only so much gas a helicopter can hold. There's only so much distance you can go. And if you have no idea where you're going to set down... your helicopter, your body, your soul, everything is going to run out of gas."


italics added by me.

maybe we can get back on the topic of miguel and his actions or maybe a moderator should lockout this thread. seems like the gays in the military discussion should be its own thread in general discussion.



Miguel was picked on the entire time, I can't believe there wasn't some sort of revenge in his agenda for bringing all dead into the complex. Sacrificing them so they can't go out and re-populate the world sounds like only half the story considering the way they treated him.

[Trencher]

But there where plenty of good people for instance the woman that loved him.
He could have gotten his hand on a gun and shot the dangerous and cruel people who picked on him if he wanted to but he wanted to kill all so he could feel like he controlled of the end of the human race rather than the end controlled him.
Evil.

[Redge777]

"HW: Well, while we're on opinion and death... a lot of people, when they first see the movie, question when you go up and let the zombies in. They sit in awe, 'why did he do that?' Why do you think the character did that... I know what I think, but I want to know what you think.

Antone: Hmmm... it seems that, just like I said before - the very people that I'm trying to live with and survive with, have turned into the very thing we're trying to protect ourselves from. The spirituality and religionosity of that character realizes it is the end. It's like someone has to sacrifice themselves and bring this madness to a halt. That's pretty much why I let them in. I'm up to my ears. It's not really a personal suicide type thing, I bring them down for a reason. A lot of people might think it's vengeance and all that stuff, but it's not. I see the character from my point of view and I saw it as right, the correct to do that, because they have turned into very heartless, selfserving, and really not connected to what we are as human beings. What kind of souls are left that abuse each other in such hideous ways, as we see through the entire film. So I let them in and sacrificed myself for the - what I think - is the betterment of mankind in general. End this madness. Let it just cease. So what did you think?
HW: Actually very close to you. I felt that Miguel did it because the surviving humans had pretty much degraded themselves to being more dangerous to each other than the zombies were..
Antone: yeah, that's exactly right.
HW: With them being more dangerous than the zombies, these are not the people that should survive to continue the human race. So very similar to you
Antone: Right, but I'm also hearing that they're going to be shooting each other, my lover, and friends - as I'm lying there in this 'state' waiting to see if I'm going to become a zombie. So right. They're going about destroying each other and where do they think they're going to escape to? That's the laughable part. There's only so much gas a helicopter can hold. There's only so much distance you can go. And if you have no idea where you're going to set down... your helicopter, your body, your soul, everything is going to run out of gas."


this is from the same interview series that i posted in the thread "an excellent series of interviews" given to horrorweb in 04.


This is it this is it, this is the perspective that the zombies are common people and the living our the elite(in there perspective) Miguel was bit, and he saw the truth. Don't you see, this defends my arguement in my opening thread, sombody do you see this. He became more intune with the zombie, thats what the zombie bite does.

Do you see.

He says the living are became heartless and are not what humans should be. See he is a zombie from the view of the elite. He is turned, he speaks as one of us.

He even speaks that they will have nowhere to fly away to. Before ever seeing this interview, I spoke of how they always speak of flying away. I do not see this as rapture, that would be an acceptable fly away, their fly away is spoken of after things go bad, not because of the return of the Lord Jesus Christ.

[clanglee]

Dude, we get it. Now please, with all due respect, shut it. You are like a one trick pony. Please, for the love of God, talk about something else.

[major jay]

Damn, this is heavy. I'm gonna have to smoke a fatty and watch this movie again.

[Trin]

"The spirituality and religionosity of that character realizes it is the end. It's like someone has to sacrifice themselves and bring this madness to a halt."

"So I let them in and sacrificed myself for the - what I think - is the betterment of mankind in general."


I also saw some religious and nihilistic shades to Miguel's actions. Perhaps in his twisted mental state he saw his actions as cleansing the human race in favor of the new species. It appeared to me he was offering himself for judgement.
Who da man??

[Redge777]

Dude, we get it. Now please, with all due respect, shut it. You are like a one trick pony. Please, for the love of God, talk about something else.

In another thread you pointed up to my thread ^ and said I was like a virus.

Lets see, you say my post are bad, viruses are bad. You say my posts spread. And in this post you ask me to talk about something else.

Ok, lets talk about why my comments are bad, would they not only be bad if you already knew my symbolism and considered its knowledge spreading being bad. What if people read your post and realized you see the same thing, but do not talk about it to protect through secrecy a certain world position. You even call my ideas crazy, yet I ask people to stop and think, what is more crazy, my comments, or your worry about them being viral and begging that I stop.

If my comments were not true, wouldn't you just assume nobody would believe them and not care if they were posted?

I think your comments support something, something you don't want discussed. If my comments are incorrect please show me where.

http://forum.homepageofthedead.com/showthread.php?t=1556&page=3
In this page when people were commenting on meaning, with many comments about people being dumb, and even one about sheep, you said that you agreed. Why is there symbolism ok, yet mine is somehow crazy. I smell an agenda you may have.

[clanglee]

:lol::lol::lol:

Darnit, you found me out. Now the Power Elite will have to be informed. Your foil cap will protect you no longer!!!

[SRP76]

http://209.85.48.11/9089/183/upload/p9611862.png

[acealive1]

http://209.85.48.11/9089/183/upload/p9611862.png






:lol::lol:

[clanglee]

http://209.85.48.11/9089/183/upload/p9611862.png

Oh, they need to add that one. :lol::lol::lol:

[AcesandEights]

I think your comments support something, something you don't want discussed.

:eek:

[Redge777]

:lol::lol::lol:

Darnit, you found me out. Now the Power Elite will have to be informed. Your foil cap will protect you no longer!!!
My friend God Bless you. This is humorous. I should let you know I been on the radar for years. And my protection does not come from a tin hat.

I understand you meant this as humor, and I laugh with you on this one.

[Legion2213]

Look folks, Miguel was a twat. He had no right to decide to wipe out a dozen people (several of which had done him no harm).

My blood boils every time I watch his death scene...Steel should've wasted him in the zombie pen.

[Redge777]

Look folks, Miguel was a twat. He had no right to decide to wipe out a dozen people (several of which had done him no harm).

My blood boils every time I watch his death scene...Steel should've wasted him in the zombie pen.

They may have done him no harm, but they did lots of harm to zombies that just wanted the people in the mall to be equals with them.

And his decision is just and good if you consider the possibility that the zombies are the better people. If you take that view, as he describes in his interview, then stopping the few dwellers in the shopping mall, from destroying zombies, was the best thing to do.

[Legion2213]

They may have done him no harm, but they did lots of harm to zombies that just wanted the people in the mall to be equals with them.

And his decision is just and good if you consider the possibility that the zombies are the better people. If you take that view, as he describes in his interview, then stopping the few dwellers in the shopping mall, from destroying zombies, was the best thing to do.

I don't consider zombies to be "better people"...they are brutal butchers of innocent women and children. :(

Destroy all zombies is my motto.

[Mike70]

I should let you know I been on the radar for years. And my protection does not come from a tin hat.

coming to you live from mom's basement-the paranoia self-destroya show starring that captain of conspiracy, the honey of internet hysteria- redge777 (applause)

the paranoia self-destroya show is a putzpuller production.


dude get a grip on something besides yourself.

on an aside- sorry for moving off topic but this dude is too much.


They may have done him no harm, but they did lots of harm to zombies that just wanted the people in the mall to be equals with them.

And his decision is just and good if you consider the possibility that the zombies are the better people. If you take that view, as he describes in his interview, then stopping the few dwellers in the shopping mall, from destroying zombies, was the best thing to do.


uh, i think you missed antone's point entirely. besides what does the mall in dawn have to do with a discussion of miguel's character in day?

the folks in the mall were working together. they were not wrapped up in plays for power and interpersonal bickering. they were destroyed by an outside force- a bunch of scumbag barbarians made up from the downtrodden, common people whom you seem to idolize. the motorcycle gang is the real evil in dawn.

how are brainless, undead killing machines better people? they weren't trying to make anyone equal or unequal-they were trying to rip the living to shreds and eat them.

if you are seeing them as some sort of marxist/proletariat symbol, again i think you have missed romero's point entirely and are engaging in specious speculation based on a dubious economic theory.

[Trin]

I think your comments support something, something you don't want discussed. If my comments are incorrect please show me where.

Clanglee secretly loves Land of the Dead. He thinks it a great movie with flawless plot. He secretly loves Big Daddy. And although he has a hard time admitting it he also thinks Land came before Day.

It's okay clang, we can accept you...

:eek::p:D

[Legion2213]

Clanglee secretly loves Land of the Dead. He thinks it a great movie with flawless plot. He secretly loves Big Daddy. And although he has a hard time admitting it he also thinks Land came before Day.

It's okay clang, we can accept you...

:eek::p:D


Clang *hearts* Big D

:D

[Mike70]

clang is the secret administrator of a CIA plot to make everyone love house of the dead.:p

he is also a klingon in disguise as elvis.

oops did i discuss what he didn't want to discuss?

[Redge777]

I don't consider zombies to be "better people"...they are brutal butchers of innocent women and children. :(

Destroy all zombies is my motto.

Well look at it from the symbolic point of view. I agree violence is wrong, but eating brains is only violent to show it to the zombie commoners. Is this why they are violent?

The symbolic upper class eating of brain is a loss of power, the commoner one, is a gory scene in a film.


coming to you live from mom's basement-the paranoia self-destroya show starring that captain of conspiracy, the honey of internet hysteria- redge777 (applause)
the paranoia self-destroya show is a putzpuller production.
dude get a grip on something besides yourself.
on an aside- sorry for moving off topic but this dude is too much.

Ok, show the error in my logic, If I am correct it is Plato's cave, if you are correct then my assumptions should not match up. Look around and decide for yourself.


uh, i think you missed antone's point entirely. besides what does the mall in dawn have to do with a discussion of miguel's character in day?

I did meld the symbolism of the mall and the fighting in the bunker. The infighting does occur in factions. And some elites even write stories about it to let the zombies in.

The mall is the safe place where everything is free for those with power. while the commoners mill around outside the 'club' throwing themselves at the door in instinct and pattern.(from the elites view point) Yet even with everything the elite do not care for the zombies, they just shoot them.


The folks in the mall were working together. they were not wrapped up in plays for power and interpersonal bickering. they were destroyed by an outside force- a bunch of scumbag barbarians made up from the downtrodden, common people whom you seem to idolize. the motorcycle gang is the real evil in dawn.

this is excellent, yes the motorcycle people, nice advertisement here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9SKAR_CL_g

They did work together, for there own benefit alone, as does the elite in today's society. They take care of there brothers first and foremost, this is even part of fraternal oaths.

The motorcycle gang want in the club and are the people who understand the tools, they are not just in pattern, but they do not have compassion. Unfortunately they do hurt those currently in the mall in this movie.

However in a post in script thread, the author changed the ending of one film to let the elites fly away, this is the real action of the black sheep, they show mercy, but from elite perspective they must be feared to keep empathy for those outside the club from building. So the elite story usually paints the motorcycle people as evil. This is Hamiltonian, people are evil, versus Jefferson people are good.

The motor cycle crew was an evolving of the symbolism.


how are brainless, undead killing machines better people? they weren't trying to make anyone equal or unequal-they were trying to rip the living to shreds and eat them.

if you are seeing them as some sort of marxist/proletariat symbol, again i think you have missed romero's point entirely and are engaging in specious speculation based on a dubious economic theory.

The zombies are shown the way the elite see them. They are brainless in real life because that is how the elites protect the club. One royal family member once said if the common people really knew what was going on there would be a revolution in a day. They are brainless through secrecy and not having time to learn, nor information sources. (see signature)

Zombies are better because they do not fight amongst each other, as miguel contrasted with the mall people. And the eating of brain is metaphor for ripping away advantage and power, what the powerful consider theirs. remember when bitten a living becomes a zombie. An equal to all in society. So it is only making them non self proclaimed elite.

As far as it being outside of economic theory. The living people were inside with everything they wanted, and were healthy, the zombies were beating on the door to get to them. It hinges alot on what eating brain means. I see it as taking away power. And the bite is conscience, or exposure.


clang is the secret administrator of a CIA plot to make everyone love house of the dead.:p

he is also a klingon in disguise as elvis.

oops did i discuss what he didn't want to discuss?

See thread in signature for any info you want on CIA 53-54 plot. Most who consider themselves kings seem to be klingons, and your method of discussion may be acceptable to his point of view :) But this is really just banter, no hard feelings :)

[clanglee]

Clanglee secretly loves Land of the Dead. He thinks it a great movie with flawless plot. He secretly loves Big Daddy. And although he has a hard time admitting it he also thinks Land came before Day.

It's okay clang, we can accept you...

:eek::p:D

:eek:


Clanglee secretly loves Land of the Dead. He thinks it a great movie with flawless plot. He secretly loves Big Daddy. And although he has a hard time admitting it he also thinks Land came before Day.

It's okay clang, we can accept you...

:eek::p:D


Clang *hearts* Big D

:D

Ok guys, that just plain hurts ;)

[Philly_SWAT]

Is it just me or does the guy who played Miguel seem gay? The way he talks, acts, and even walks.

Yes, this is my main complaint about Day. The fact that the actor seemed very gay was even more creepy with his deep voice. Not that there is anything wrong with being gay, but being cast as the only guy getting any female lovin' seemed a little off.....

I read a good theory somewhere that Miguel thought that everything happening in the bunker was "unpure" or something, and was trying to kill off the "unpureness" by letting the zombies in to just destroy everything in the base. The theory was much more in depth than that, but that was the gist of it.

Personally, I think it is at least possible that Miguel was torn between being a member of the living and a member of the undead. Remember, they is the only example we have seen of cutting off an infected area shortly after being bit. Not a bad idea really.....could it keep the bit person from dying and turning? Due to Miguel's later actions, we do not know. But perhaps if they had cut off Rogers leg and arm, maybe he would have survived. Peter knew how to do an abortion, not a stretch to think he could perform a double amputation without killing Roger from that. But anyway, Miguel was obviously still alive, but perhaps being infected in a different way than we had seen before (i.e. the infected area being cut off) perhaps whatever causes the dead to rise was running thru his body in a weird way, and although still alive, he had the urge to become undead and join the zombie hordes, thus he let them in (as a good teammate should, Flyboy led the zombies to the hideout right away) and knew they wuold kill him and he could join their ranks (although he was ripped to shreds, so that didnt work out so well).

[Redge777]

Flyboy led the zombies to the hideout right away) and knew they wuold kill him and he could join their ranks (although he was ripped to shreds, so that didnt work out so well).


I think this is a high brow analogy to Plato's cave. He was aware, and felt others should be to, but they were not ready because they had not inwardly completed the journey to understand the truth, (nobody can be told what the matrix is). I find this a very interesting outcome for Miguel.

[clanglee]

*sigh*

[Legion2213]

*sigh*

Indeed. :D

Anyways, you can pick up the matrix at any good DVD store. :cool:

[Redge777]

Indeed. :D

Anyways, you can pick up the matrix at any good DVD store. :cool:

I didn't know we needed to pick up a dvd to see the matrix???

I thought

"You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television."

[Legion2213]

I didn't know we needed to pick up a dvd to see the matrix???

I thought

"You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television."

Maybe you can bud, maybe you can. :)

[Mike70]

*sigh*

amen. brother. amen.

this dude is definitely a few fries short of a happy meal.

[Trin]

This is exactly why I think Big Daddy was bad for the Romero universe. You let zombies take the next evolutionary step toward intelligence and pretty soon they start coming onto forums and talking about plato.

You just shoot em in the head. Just like the sheriff said. They're all messed up.

[Mike70]

yes he is twisting plato's allegory of about the cave to suit his deranged, conspiracy minded politics.

i edited this post. previously i had described exactly what plato's allegory was but now i have thought better of it. i am not going to debate classical philosophy in this thread which is supposed to be about miguel nor am i going to feed into a certain new members rants.

[Trin]

And back to Miguel.

I still don't see how this can all be pinned on Miguel. Rhodes was the commanding officer. He put Miguel in the volatile situation after being told point blank that the guy was unfit for duty.

"I need all the men I got." Why? If he was feeling overtaxed he should've told the researchers that he and his men were taking a break. He made it perfectly clear that he was in charge. Why was he still doing their bidding? It's not like they were fighting for their lives. They could've taken a week or a month and done absolutely nothing.

Miguel turned out to be spoon in the ass. But the signs were there. As to why he let the zombies in - who knows? Why does a guy kill his family then turn the gun on himself? Who knows? But it happens - spoon in the ass.

I believe it could've been Rhodes or Dr. Logan who went haywire just as easily.

[Mike70]

"I need all the men I got." Why? If he was feeling overtaxed he should've told the researchers that he and his men were taking a break. He made it perfectly clear that he was in charge. Why was he still doing their bidding? It's not like they were fighting for their lives. They could've taken a week or a month and done absolutely nothing.

agreed. there were several characters poised on the edge of crackerdog. a nice long break with plenty of fat joints and lots of valium would've improved everyone's outlook on life considerably. this group of people needed to escape from reality for a little while.

[Legion2213]

Rhodes was definately on the edge, he wasn't bluffing when he told Steel to shoot Sarah.

I don't think a break would've done anybody any good...they would still have been trapped in a bunker with folks they hated, zombies inside, zombies outside and no real hope of rescue/relief.

I can understand Rhodes's frustration, he was a soldier who was being told not to kill the enemy and losing his men whilst not killing the enemy.

That would piss me off...I would also be tempted to just go out and "blow the piss" out of 'em all.

[Mike70]

a break would've been a stop gap measure for sure. any group of people holed up underground would go completely coo-coo for coco puffs after awhile. the only real way to defuse the slide toward insanity would've been to

a. find someplace safe out in the sunlight
b. find some other people
c. give up on the pipe dream of finding a reason, cure or cause and get back to living.

[Yojimbo]

In another thread you pointed up to my thread ^ and said I was like a virus.

Lets see, you say my post are bad, viruses are bad. You say my posts spread. And in this post you ask me to talk about something else.

Ok, lets talk about why my comments are bad, would they not only be bad if you already knew my symbolism and considered its knowledge spreading being bad. What if people read your post and realized you see the same thing, but do not talk about it to protect through secrecy a certain world position. You even call my ideas crazy, yet I ask people to stop and think, what is more crazy, my comments, or your worry about them being viral and begging that I stop.

If my comments were not true, wouldn't you just assume nobody would believe them and not care if they were posted?

I think your comments support something, something you don't want discussed. If my comments are incorrect please show me where.

http://forum.homepageofthedead.com/showthread.php?t=1556&page=3
In this page when people were commenting on meaning, with many comments about people being dumb, and even one about sheep, you said that you agreed. Why is there symbolism ok, yet mine is somehow crazy. I smell an agenda you may have.


Sir, it is not that one person's symbolism is better than yours. It is that all you seem to talk about has to revolve around your need to shove your views down everyone's throat. You are free to think and write as you wish, however, it is getting tiresome and boring. Please understand, it is not that you are wrong, or someone else is wrong, or someone is right or that you are right. Really, it is a matter of being quite bored with your constant tirade about elites and zombies, etc.

[Redge777]

agreed everyone has opinion.

my coment was in tne context of a member that said it had no value, then said I was like a virus. It was not just saying I was correct, it was inviting other opinions.

Like yours, thanks :)

[clanglee]

agreed everyone has opinion.

my coment was in tne context of a member that said it had no value, then said I was like a virus. It was not just saying I was correct, it was inviting other opinions.

Like yours, thanks :)

But a virus is a symbol of the spead of information from the power elite to the common man. Right? The information spread is highly classified. . . but i'm gonna tell you anyways. . . lean closer . . . .. . . ... . . . . .here it is. . . . . You are annoying!!!:mad:

[Redge777]

I did not know viral spread was uni directional.

[clanglee]

Maybe not, but your brain is.




I can't do this anymore. I'm done. :bored:

[jim102016]

a break would've been a stop gap measure for sure. any group of people holed up underground would go completely coo-coo for coco puffs after awhile. the only real way to defuse the slide toward insanity would've been to

a. find someplace safe out in the sunlight
b. find some other people
c. give up on the pipe dream of finding a reason, cure or cause and get back to living.

I don't think a break would have helped, they were too far over the edge, and too convinced that what they were doing was worthless. They wanted out, especially Rhodes. He should have put Miguel under observation, but under the observation of who? With all the stress bearing down on them, no one in that cave was thinking correctly. Giving the men more time to remain idle would have just made them worse.

Should have put a guard on the elevator and one on the corral, then made preparations for withdrawl to some place safe.

[Redge777]

I can't do this anymore. I'm done. :bored:

I could lighten things up with a song or two, maybe this is why Miguel cracked.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oaSZxd9jOY

Shock doctrine, yea, through the fire, smothing knocked me out of the trees. Yea Yea Yea!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGksmlTWCFE

I have always liked Billy Joel.

No wait its just shadows on the wall, were did I put my chains, hmm.

[Trin]

So let's assume that rest - i.e. sitting idle - wouldn't have helped.

Perhaps Rhodes should've had his men go up topside and clear the zombies off the fences. Give them some room to move outside, let them see the sun, and blow off some steam all at once.

I just hate to see Miguel taking the brunt of the blame for the events of Day when Rhodes was shooting scientists in the head and throwing the non-military support staff to the zombies.

[major jay]

Were the scientists helping?

[jim102016]

So let's assume that rest - i.e. sitting idle - wouldn't have helped.

Perhaps Rhodes should've had his men go up topside and clear the zombies off the fences. Give them some room to move outside, let them see the sun, and blow off some steam all at once.

I just hate to see Miguel taking the brunt of the blame for the events of Day when Rhodes was shooting scientists in the head and throwing the non-military support staff to the zombies.

Sounds like a therapeutic activity, but the idea may have blown up in their faces. They would have wasted what was left of their ammunition picking them off the fences, those within earshot of the noise would have come to replace them quickly. (Sarah said in the begining, "...More and more of them every day".) Could have started a zombie riot too, with the men so close to the fence they might have gone crazy, knocking the fence down in the process.

First time I saw the movie I thought Miguel was going to do something crazy. But, bringing the dead down the elevator was more unexpected than Rhodes executing the civilians he spent his last days arguing with.

[Yojimbo]

i edited this post. previously i had described exactly what plato's allegory was but now i have thought better of it. i am not going to debate classical philosophy in this thread which is supposed to be about miguel nor am i going to feed into a certain new members rants.

Wise choice sir. You are a better gentleman than I.

[SRP76]

There is an ignore feature here.

[Yojimbo]

Sure hate to do that, though, but nice to have as a last resort.

[AcesandEights]

Were the scientists helping?

Well, exactly who was helping anyone else in that movie? It almost sounds like your asking if the scientists were helping the civilians and/or the military, but what were the remaining military elements and the civilian support personnel doing that was actually helpful or useful?

The only useful thing I ever saw done from a problem solving standpoint in a disaster-scenario was the initial looking for survivors and scouting mission at the top of the movie, which was basically a joint effort.

[Trin]

My main point is that Miguel cannot be solely blamed for the downfall of the base. It's true that he didn't help matters. He was whiny, and stressed, and incompetent. But everyone knew that and could've accounted for it.

The act of Miguel opening the gates is immaterial to the downfall of the base. It happened too late in the sequence of events. By that point Rhodes had already found out Dr. Logan, killed the other scientist, and had condemned the others to be eaten by zombies. He was already planning to take John and the chopper and leave.

You can argue that if Miguel had been killed by someone inside the base much earlier things might have been better. But Rhodes was still threatening to shoot people, Dr. Logan was still feeding soldiers to the zombies, and the zombie collar that broke for Miguel was bound to break for someone else.

If Sarah had killed Miguel when he became infected rather than chopped his arm off it's entirely possible that Rhodes would've succeeded in taking John to fly the chopper and killed all the rest at the zombie pen. Miguel activating the elevator distracted him.

[Yojimbo]

My main point is that Miguel cannot be solely blamed for the downfall of the base. It's true that he didn't help matters. He was whiny, and stressed, and incompetent. But everyone knew that and could've accounted for it.

The act of Miguel opening the gates is immaterial to the downfall of the base. It happened too late in the sequence of events. By that point Rhodes had already found out Dr. Logan, killed the other scientist, and had condemned the others to be eaten by zombies. He was already planning to take John and the chopper and leave.

You can argue that if Miguel had been killed by someone inside the base much earlier things might have been better. But Rhodes was still threatening to shoot people, Dr. Logan was still feeding soldiers to the zombies, and the zombie collar that broke for Miguel was bound to break for someone else.

If Sarah had killed Miguel when he became infected rather than chopped his arm off it's entirely possible that Rhodes would've succeeded in taking John to fly the chopper and killed all the rest at the zombie pen. Miguel activating the elevator distracted him.

Very interesting perspective!

I still think that Miguel's final act was one of delusion and angry cowardice, however I think you are right on that his action, however inadvertently it might have been, actually saved John and the rest of the civilians.
Miguel does in fact deserve to be recognized for that!

[SRP76]

I'm certain Miguel didn't think, "oh, the good guys are in the zombie pen! If I let every deadhead within a hundred miles in here, they'll be saved!".

His goal had to have been to feed every single person in the base to the dead.

[Legion2213]

I'm certain Miguel didn't think, "oh, the good guys are in the zombie pen! If I let every deadhead within a hundred miles in here, they'll be saved!".

His goal had to have been to feed every single person in the base to the dead.

Yep, he was a selfish little twerp who decided to murder everybody in the base...even the likes of John & William who had done him no harm. :mad:

[Trin]

I'm certain Miguel didn't think, "oh, the good guys are in the zombie pen! If I let every deadhead within a hundred miles in here, they'll be saved!".I never said he did. I'm merely pointing out that if Miguel gets killed earlier the fate of the heroes is probably worse and, if anything, it lifts blame from him rather than placing it further on him.

I'm still a believer that his final act was one of religion and repentance, which defies logic, friendship, and loyalty. But let's agree to disagree on that point.

Here's my question. A lot of you are saying he should've been killed early on. What if Miguel didn't let the zombies in at the end? Would his character still have deserved to die earlier? Under what justification?

[SRP76]

Here's my question. A lot of you are saying he should've been killed early on. What if Miguel didn't let the zombies in at the end? Would his character still have deserved to die earlier? Under what justification?

Yes, he should have.

He is either part of the solution, or part of the problem. Since he is worthless, that makes him part of the problem.

Getting rid of him would be one less hand in the supply bin, one less mouth eating up the food stores, one less focal point of jealousy among the sex-starved soldiers, and one less screwup capable of getting other people killed.

I see no reason for him to live.

[DubiousComforts]

Yes, he should have.

He is either part of the solution, or part of the problem. Since he is worthless, that makes him part of the problem.
Sounds too much like "you're either with us or you're with the terrorists," and such black & white thinking is dangerous. By this line of reasoning, no one in the group could have been trusted, and all the soldiers were beyond redemption and should have been killed.

I agree with Trin's perspective on Miguel "offering himself for judgment." As I said before, it was the only definitive action he took in the entire film. Additionally, we really have no idea if Miguel knew that he was murdering everyone in the base. As far as he knew, everyone had either killed each other, or Rhodes & company had killed the civilians and left the base.

[SRP76]

Sounds too much like "you're either with us or you're with the terrorists," and such black & white thinking is dangerous. By this line of reasoning, no one in the group could have been trusted, and all the soldiers were beyond redemption and should have been killed.



All the other soldiers did their jobs. It isn't "trust". It's "use". Miguel didn't do his job - EVER.

[Mike70]

i think the main thing driving events in day toward destruction was the polarization among the different groups. no one wanted, nor even had the slightest interest, in working together. the different units had to function as a team and when that team concept started to breakdown the whole mass was doomed to failure.

you have rhodes hanging on the idea of power. in a world shrunk to 12 people what does that matter? it doesn't. his inability to let his little dicked ego take a back seat to survival was deadly to the rest of the group.

then there is logan. what the hell does it matter if you can make a few of the zombies behave? it doesn't. there are jillions of the them and you can't make them all behave. his point of view is drivel and nonsense in the extreme.

sarah's need to "find an answer" is self-delusional and given the resources available not realistic at all. she is hanging onto the empirical past where everything can be stamped and deliniated into its proper category. all that has been blown away and the only that matters (which none of these characters seem to get) is surviving.

then you have john and mcdermott not only do they not lend a hand in anything that doesn't strictly pertain to their "jobs" (again a meaningless concept in this format) they sequester themselves away from the rest of the group in their own private "honkey paradise" (in the words of one of the family from "the omega man"-yeah i know john was black, i'm not blind-it's just a funny phrase)

the failure to work together and the failure to look past their own petty concerns is what doomed the folks in day.

[DubiousComforts]

All the other soldiers did their jobs. It isn't "trust". It's "use". Miguel didn't do his job - EVER.
The other soldiers were never seen doing their jobs in the several days over which the movie took place. They were busy drinking, and growing/smoking weed while in a serious crisis situation. Miguel didn't almost kill Rickels--Steel and Rickels combined idiocy almost killed Rickels. Miguel was the convenient scapegoat for a group of dangerous loud-mouths.

Pretty much everyone in the film was "useless" due to their conflicting agendas. Even the scientists couldn't let go of the past long enough to realize they were stuck in a "hopeless situation" (as Logan had said of the soldiers). The best strategy for survival would have been to avoid all of them.

[clanglee]

I think that John and Mcdermott were the only 2 that were worth a crap. They knew their worth, they knew the situation was FUBAR, and they stayed out of the way of everyone else. They lived it up as best they could, because who knows when it would all end.

[Trin]

The other soldiers were never seen doing their jobs in the several days over which the movie took place. They were busy drinking, and growing/smoking weed while in a serious crisis situation. Miguel didn't almost kill Rickels--Steel and Rickels combined idiocy almost killed Rickels. Miguel was the convenient scapegoat for a group of dangerous loud-mouths.Woo-hoo!! Well said!! *clapping*

And let's not forget that Miguel was on the helicopter barely able to stay awake, then got pulled into zombie pen duty the minute they landed. The hell he wasn't doing his job.

@scipio70 - Great post. The separate agendas of each was definitely a catalyst for the breakdown.

It seems like there are signs that they started out working as a team, but as each group met with failures they began drifting apart.

[Legion2213]

i think the main thing driving events in day toward destruction was the polarization among the different groups. no one wanted, nor even had the slightest interest, in working together. the different units had to function as a team and when that team concept started to breakdown the whole mass was doomed to failure.

you have rhodes hanging on the idea of power. in a world shrunk to 12 people what does that matter? it doesn't. his inability to let his little dicked ego take a back seat to survival was deadly to the rest of the group.

then there is logan. what the hell does it matter if you can make a few of the zombies behave? it doesn't. there are jillions of the them and you can't make them all behave. his point of view is drivel and nonsense in the extreme.

sarah's need to "find an answer" is self-delusional and given the resources available not realistic at all. she is hanging onto the empirical past where everything can be stamped and deliniated into its proper category. all that has been blown away and the only that matters (which none of these characters seem to get) is surviving.

then you have john and mcdermott not only do they not lend a hand in anything that doesn't strictly pertain to their "jobs" (again a meaningless concept in this format) they sequester themselves away from the rest of the group in their own private "honkey paradise" (in the words of one of the family from "the omega man"-yeah i know john was black, i'm not blind-it's just a funny phrase)

the failure to work together and the failure to look past their own petty concerns is what doomed the folks in day.

Good post.

A bunker full of folks who are all pulling in different directions and all clinging to the "old order".

Not the most optimum chances of survival for these folks.

[sandrock74]

If what Miguel did was strictly due to religious reasons, then why didn't he simply jump the fence, leaving it locked? Why let the zombies into their complex? He was selfish and fairly useless. He decided that it was his own time to die and he also wanted everyone else dead as well.
He was a coward.
I see nothing logical or worthwhile in his actions at the end of the movie.

At least we all KNEW Rhodes was unhinged! He let you know where he was coming from. He wasn't sneaking around to let the zombies in!

[Trin]

If what Miguel did was strictly due to religious reasons, then why didn't he simply jump the fence, leaving it locked? Why let the zombies into their complex? He was selfish and fairly useless. He decided that it was his own time to die and he also wanted everyone else dead as well.
He was a coward.
I see nothing logical or worthwhile in his actions at the end of the movie.

At least we all KNEW Rhodes was unhinged! He let you know where he was coming from. He wasn't sneaking around to let the zombies in!
If you don't see his actions as logical then that adds credence to a religious view. Religious motives often transcend worldly logic. That's fundamental to the concept of faith.

If Miguel concluded that God's will was that a plague of zombies should wipe clean the earth of humans then it makes perfect sense that he would let them in. He wasn't committing suicide. He was making himself a pawn of God. In a religious context that's a brave and selfless act.

Personally, if I'd seen him trying to open the fences I'd have put a bullet in his head because I don't share that view. But I see where he was coming from. All the more reason they should've watched him closer.

And, yes, we knew Rhodes was unhinged. So was Dr. Logan. If you tell me someone should've put a bullet in either of their heads I'd agree wholeheartedly. And they earned it far, far earlier in the movie than Miguel.

[Wyldwraith]

Reality check,
Survival situation often = suspension of morality. Look at justified uses of martial law and the seemingly harsh actions often taken during it.

Rhodes: Power-mad, either in the midst of or on the edge of a psychotic break. Fast acting poison in his booze prolly the best way to go here. Start shooting and you end up with an insane firefight from a bunch of soldiers way past their breaking points. Everyone talks about Rhodes being serious about his order to have Sarah shot. What about the fact that when push came to shove the guy he was ordering to do it was willing?

Dr. Logan: Perfect (immoral, but perfect) way to offer an olive branch to the soldiers. Snitch on him to Rhodes, play up to him that after discovering what Dr. Logan was up to you now "get it" and see where he's coming from and are very sorry you were being such an ignorant ass in not seeing what a wise and powerful leader he was. Let them publicly torture, humiliate and finally murder Dr. Logan. Why? The soldiers (including Rhodes) MIGHT have had their frustration and bloodlust temporarily sated, buying time for the remaining scientists/civilians to figure a way out of this mess.

Sarah: John should've grabbed her by the shoulders and shook her, HARD. Told her she needed to stop frigging obsessing on the cause of it all and accept that whatever the cause the situation was dire and survival needed to be the primary concern. I feel like Sarah could've been reached had one of the civilians been blunt enough about her obsession.

Yes, a great deal of what I just wrote is ugly. It was a horrible, depraved situation they found themselves in. Such situations don't come tailored with tidy and morally upright solutions. Real survivors are the ones who can sleep (lightly) with having done *whatever* it took to survive. Continued life offers the possibility of better days. Retaining your conventional morality short-term and allowing it to drag you down into death when for all you know your little band are the last living people is arrogant and selfish IMO.

The group failed like many have said because everyone was focused on EVERYTHING BUT making the hard and ugly choices that might've given a better chance of survival. Miguel is no different here than anyone else. If it was religious obsession or just insanity the same is true for him. Obsessed with something besides the glaring necessity before him.

If you're going to lay down your life lay it down for something that lets you die content. Not for an abstract rambling judgmental internal monologue about unpureness. Self-sacrifice is a noble trait, yes. But only when applied rightly.

[sandrock74]

I think Rhodes and Logan were the ones making the situation worse. With them out of the picture, I think everyone else would have been more loose and not as stressed.
Sarah's obsessiveness was the other sticking point. She needed to just forget about it! It was WAY too late to save the world at this point!

As a side bar, did anyone else think it was weird at just how many zombies were coming out of the pen when it was left open at the end of the movie? The way Sarah was complaining, it seemed like there were only a few left! There must have been a hundred shambling out of there!!

[SRP76]

As a side bar, did anyone else think it was weird at just how many zombies were coming out of the pen when it was left open at the end of the movie? The way Sarah was complaining, it seemed like there were only a few left! There must have been a hundred shambling out of there!!

I think that was just a blooper, since many of those zombies were the same ones that just came down the elevator.

Thing is, the never-ending, "more every day" zombie homing doesn't fit with them being on an island.

If they were tethered to the mainland by highways, the FIRST thing the military would have done when they dropped them there would be to blow every bridge in and out of the place.

There should have been a finite number of dead surrounding their area.

[7734]

As a side bar, did anyone else think it was weird at just how many zombies were coming out of the pen when it was left open at the end of the movie? The way Sarah was complaining, it seemed like there were only a few left! There must have been a hundred shambling out of there!!

I think sarah just complained too much period. But the way Rhoades was whining made me think there were a lot of zombies in that pen and he was getting more worried day by day.

[sandrock74]

OK, I just have to ask.
I always wondered.
Just how did they get those zombies into the pen in the first place? Hope that they fall into the missle silo? And why make the pen in the darkest, scariest corner of the whole complex? Why give the zombies so many places to hide?

[Yojimbo]

the failure to work together and the failure to look past their own petty concerns is what doomed the folks in day.

Certainly is the predominate theme of GAR's apocalyptic films. Still think Miguel was a waste case, mind you, but you make a very good point. Collectively they all were feeding their own agenda's, whether that is getting high, or posing in the mirror, etc, but not really working cohesively on a master plan.

[Legion2213]

OK, I just have to ask.
I always wondered.
Just how did they get those zombies into the pen in the first place? Hope that they fall into the missle silo? And why make the pen in the darkest, scariest corner of the whole complex? Why give the zombies so many places to hide?

I expect that Rhodes men had to round them up from the outside...hence the loss of several of his men before we join the story...no wonder he was pissed at the scientists who didn't have to do anything dangerous.

[DubiousComforts]

OK, I just have to ask.
I always wondered.
Just how did they get those zombies into the pen in the first place? Hope that they fall into the missle silo? And why make the pen in the darkest, scariest corner of the whole complex? Why give the zombies so many places to hide?
It seems that they selected a remote corner of the facility that was easy to seal off with a single gate. Obviously, they also developed a very specific system for corralling the zombies long before they became lazy and the team started falling apart. In the film, they seem to be sloppily going through the motions which is very dangerous given the situation.

[acealive1]

I think that John and Mcdermott were the only 2 that were worth a crap. They knew their worth, they knew the situation was FUBAR, and they stayed out of the way of everyone else. They lived it up as best they could, because who knows when it would all end.

they knew when to play and when to work. and both could co exist which is great. that'll keep u alive a long time

[jim102016]

Woo-hoo!! Well said!! *clapping*

And let's not forget that Miguel was on the helicopter barely able to stay awake, then got pulled into zombie pen duty the minute they landed. The hell he wasn't doing his job.

@scipio70 - Great post. The separate agendas of each was definitely a catalyst for the breakdown.

It seems like there are signs that they started out working as a team, but as each group met with failures they began drifting apart.


Speaking of Miguel and his getting roped into helping after he came down the elevator, why the hell didn't Miller help? Miller says the flight was another waste of time, the elevator doors close, and he's just there....what the hell is he doing, hiding or playing with himself? You don't hear the elevator start up again.


I think that was just a blooper, since many of those zombies were the same ones that just came down the elevator.

Thing is, the never-ending, "more every day" zombie homing doesn't fit with them being on an island.

If they were tethered to the mainland by highways, the FIRST thing the military would have done when they dropped them there would be to blow every bridge in and out of the place.

There should have been a finite number of dead surrounding their area.

Who ever said the research complex/bunker was on an island? How did you come up with the idea they were on an island? Their little operation was pretty pathetic, they even mention it was put together in a matter of days. They could barely scrape up enough resources for what they had, no way in hell they could have knocked out massive land bridges in the far out concept that it was an island.

[sandrock74]

they knew when to play and when to work. and both could co exist which is great. that'll keep u alive a long time

Well said my friend! Well said.

[acealive1]

Well said my friend! Well said.

thank you :D


isnt the man who played john from detroit?

[Mike70]

yes he was born 23 march 1947 in detroit.