Bites?

[Doc]

I've seen all 4 dead films and am confused by this.

Night: I don't think they reveal how long the Coopers were down in the basement ,but I guess it took Karen a few hours to turn.

Dawn: Peter said that he had seen half of the guys in his squad get bitten and they all only lasted 3 days.

Day: Nothing to say about Day since no one ever dies out of a bite in this one.

Land: Riley said his brother turned in 1 hour.

Can someone explain?

[AcesandEights]

If you want a straight, absolutely correct answer you will be disappointed because one does not exist. Some people will say that a bite is 100% going to turn you into a ghoul, while others just say it will 100% kill you, thus turning you into a ghoul, anyway. Others will claim that it might be possible to survive a bite and it's just the virulent nature of the bacteria that the human mouth (now even worse, as the person is dead) carries that makes infection almost inevitable.

In any event, the differing lengths of time it takes for someone to turn just probably correlates to how long it takes them to succumb to the bite and/or ensuing infection(s) and any other wounds or contributing factors that might lead to their death.

That's just an opinion, though.

[Legion2213]

Nobody was with Coopers kid when she turned, she could have just died from loss of blood, shock etc...and then risen as yer common or garden zombie.

[SRP76]

It was made clear several times.

The guru on the tube in Night flat-out stated that "it's only a matter of minutes" before a dead body gets up.

After that, every "rising" we see happens just a few minutes after the person croaks.

Where's the controversy? Die, wait a few minutes, get back up. That's the process.

[Danny]

in the dead films its not a "virus" like msot rip offs its all dead, and a live humans mouth contains awy more bacteria than a dogs, imagine a corpse's then it bites you, you die of infection, since you cant reach mdeical help, and like every other body you get up, though the whole flesh eating thing still bugs me, if they ate them all how would new ones be made?

[SRP76]

though the whole flesh eating thing still bugs me, if they ate them all how would new ones be made?

There wouldn't be. Problem is, they rarely eat whole people.

The Dawn script goes more into this than the movie itself. The scientist that's always on TV at the mall goes on about "waste", talking about how the dead tend to only eat about 5% of the meat on the human body, which allows those bodies to get up and join them. He suggests taking up dead bodies, and "preparing" them, and then feeding them to the dead, hoping that they will eat that, and leave live people alone.

In the actual film, most of that gets drowned out by the background music and so forth. It's when Peter is watching over Roger, preparing to blow his head off.

[Doc]

It was made clear several times.

The guru on the tube in Night flat-out stated that "it's only a matter of minutes" before a dead body gets up.

After that, every "rising" we see happens just a few minutes after the person croaks.

Where's the controversy? Die, wait a few minutes, get back up. That's the process. NO what I meant was why did it take Roger like about 2 or3 days to finally die and turn, while in Land Riley said his brother died in one hour and turned. But I think AcesandEights probably has the right idea.

[Yojimbo]

Agree that there exists no controversy regarding how long after death a body will revive, since this is consistently been portrayed as a matter of minutes.

As far as how long it takes to die from a bite, I would venture to guess that just like a venomous snake bite this would be a variable which would be determined by the person's intial physical condition, where the bite is located, how many bites, how deep, etc.

The idea that a virus is causing it is an invention of the wannabes. Screw them!

[Mike70]

As far as how long it takes to die from a bite, I would venture to guess that just like a venomous snake bite this would be a variable which would be determined by the person's intial physical condition, where the bite is located, how many bites, how deep, etc.

damn you:D i had this whole spiel on bite location. guess i'll save it for the inevitable return of this subject at some time in the future.

[7734]

NO what I meant was why did it take Roger like about 2 or3 days to finally die and turn, while in Land Riley said his brother died in one hour and turned. But I think AcesandEights probably has the right idea.

Probably becasue Roger was nursed and medicated and fed delicious kumquats and salvaged to the best of Fran's abilities while Riley's poor little bro was torn halfway open.

[Trin]

Peter says (from the script) "I've seen half a dozen guys get bitten by those things...none of them lasted more than thirty six hours." We have to assume during the initial few days/weeks that the military and police were receiving medical care.

Cholo died in under an hour with only a minor bite wound. He was healthy and young yet he knew it was a death sentence. I'd think that he'd have known if there was any chance for survival.

The most aggressive infections on record don't kill that fast and aren't 100% fatal if caught early. Your basic "in the mouth" stuff is even more likely to be treatable. And there's no chance of something that aggressive being in every dead mouth out there.

My opinion is that it was something new and unique to the Romero Dead.

[Danny]

well lands way after dawn, so they would be more rotten adn therefore there bites would be fare more toxic.

[Trin]

With so few deaths purely by zombie bite it's hard to really put together a theory. Cholo died fast. Roger died slow. I agree that it's a valid theory that a longer dead zombie produces a faster acting infection, assuming we're still talking about a Romero created, fictional infection.

Another theory is that Romero needed Cholo to die fast because he wanted Cholo to confront Kaufman zombified. So he did what he needed to do to satisfy his current plot twist regardless as to whether it was consistent.

[clanglee]

Wasn't Cholo also gut-shot? He could have bled to death on the way to the city.

[Yojimbo]

damn you:D i had this whole spiel on bite location. guess i'll save it for the inevitable return of this subject at some time in the future.

GMTA!


With so few deaths purely by zombie bite it's hard to really put together a theory. Cholo died fast. Roger died slow. I agree that it's a valid theory that a longer dead zombie produces a faster acting infection, assuming we're still talking about a Romero created, fictional infection.

Another theory is that Romero needed Cholo to die fast because he wanted Cholo to confront Kaufman zombified. So he did what he needed to do to satisfy his current plot twist regardless as to whether it was consistent.


We are assuming that Cholo died from the bite that we saw onscreen. Maybe he shot up some smack in an artery to ease his pain, OD'd and went that way. Or maybe he stabbed himself in the heart with one of his harpoon bolts to more quickly see how the other half lived. Perhaps he had a massive coronary brought on by the stress of the situation, or maybe he was attacked by other zombies, or he suffered from previously undiagnosed early onset diabetes and he found a massive cream pie and ate it, or maybe a UFO came down and crushed him by accident. It is all pure conjecture, but I agree that the fact he was bitten and later died from something and became a zombie is consistent with Romero's Rules.

[clanglee]

I'm pretty sure he was shot. Charlie shot him. Gut wound. That'll do it.

[Legion2213]

To my mind it's simple.

You get bitten, and without meical attention, you are dead within an hour (eg, Stephen DothD), those who have access to antibiotics will be able to arrest the "plague/infection/whatever" for a few days at most (eg, Roger DothD).

Bottom line, you get bit, you die, the only variable is how long it takes. :skull:

[Wyldwraith]

Aha!

But if we accept the notion medical attention/antibiotics makes a difference in how long someone lasts before succumbing then we are by definition accepting their illness is due to a pathogen.

I really want to hear a non-microbe-based theory that explains minor bites killing otherwise healthy people in a few hours. Besides rogue nanomachines I've tried really hard but just can't come up with one.

Electromagnetic radiation is nice and all..but not a lot of ambient radiation of any sort several dozen feet underground. Unless someone wants to try and pitch oddities with the earth's core is causing it?

Yes, microscopic parasites also fall under the "Virus Theory".

My take on why some people take longer to die is precisely like the snake venom analogy made earlier. The deeper the bite the more extensive the contact of infected fluids entering the victim's body. The closer to a major blood vessel, the faster the pathogen can spread. The greater the number of bites the higher the amount of initial pathogens, thus overwhelming the immune system faster.

In the GAR universe you get infected and die if a zombie nips your pinkie and breaks the skin. Look at the bite on the pregnant lady's arm in the Dawn remake. She had the ovoid shape and teeth impressions but it was obvious that the bite only went as far as the tips of the teeth puncturing her arm. Whatever Zombie bit her was obviously made the open its mouth immediately because that bite woulda been worse if she'd done nothing but try to pull away when bit. Even that was enough to cause infection, death and infection across the placental barrier of her infant. (A trademark of aggressive viruses and a total rule-out of all but the most massive non-radiation pollution based causes. A woman in Finland gave birth to twins with 0 chromium in their blood while she herself had 91 parts per million in her own blood. (About 10x a 100% terminal dose)

Is it just that the virus theory has been done so often that bugs people? If so that's kind of odd. I believe the reason the premise is used so often is because it plays on one instinctive revulsion (contact with the dead of our own species of an "intimate" nature. Ie: Any kind of interaction you might have with a living person) and this century's terror of epidemics/pandemics.

[Yojimbo]

Aha!

But if we accept the notion medical attention/antibiotics makes a difference in how long someone lasts before succumbing then we are by definition accepting their illness is due to a pathogen.



The concept that medical attention or pharmaceutical intervention makes any difference at all is an idea suggested by posters here, and are not really part of the GAR universe, with the singular exception of Miguel's amputation. Of course, Miguel committed suicide before we found out whether or not the gambit was successful, so we do not know for certain that medical intervention of any kind would have actualy worked. (Certainly, it provided a nice gory scene, though!)




In the GAR universe you get infected and die if a zombie nips your pinkie and breaks the skin. Look at the bite on the pregnant lady's arm in the Dawn remake. She had the ovoid shape and teeth impressions but it was obvious that the bite only went as far as the tips of the teeth puncturing her arm. Whatever Zombie bit her was obviously made the open its mouth immediately because that bite woulda been worse if she'd done nothing but try to pull away when bit. Even that was enough to cause infection, death and infection across the placental barrier of her infant. (A trademark of aggressive viruses and a total rule-out of all but the most massive non-radiation pollution based causes. A woman in Finland gave birth to twins with 0 chromium in their blood while she herself had 91 parts per million in her own blood. (About 10x a 100% terminal dose)



I see what you are saying, and you have said it very well. Many purists will disagree, however, with the idea of plot elements from DAWN remake as obeying the rules of the GAR Ghoul Universe. Zack Snyder pretty much raped the GAR rules in that film, going so far as to insinuate that a virus communicable through a bite from a ghoul is the singular cause of revival. Specifically, I refer to that moronic sequence in the "reimagining" where it is revealed that the woman who died of a gunshot did not revive.

I do not like the virus idea because I find it unecessary to explain the reason behind revival. To presume that we can narrow down the cause to a virus is fine, however it is not necessary to make a good and decent zombie film.

One of the things that I have enjoyed about the GAR universe is that GAR does not require happy endings, and GAR does not require resolution of the tragedy at hand. None of the "teenagers banding together and saving the day" B.S. that so many films present. The need to narrow it down to a virus cause/effect, I guess, would be necessary to a plot that would have the zombie phenomenon be one that is reversable, or solvable. But that's not part of the GAR universe. I for one am very glad of that!

But your point is well stated and well taken.

[acealive1]

even in the resident evil franchise they say even a scratch is sufficient enough.

in the remake of dawn,the pregnant girl had the zombie break the skin and not even bite her and she turned.

[Danny]

yeah, but in resident evil the t-virus is the casue of the zombies, which are the loosest kind of zombies aside from plant ones, and dawn 04' isnt canononical to romeros movies so it wouldnt count in relation to land or dawn.

[SRP76]

I'm pretty sure he was shot. Charlie shot him. Gut wound. That'll do it.

Exactly. Cholo isn't a good example of "dead from a bite".

[acealive1]

yeah, but in resident evil the t-virus is the casue of the zombies, which are the loosest kind of zombies aside from plant ones, and dawn 04' isnt canononical to romeros movies so it wouldnt count in relation to land or dawn.


they made perfect sense though. just like aids is transmitted through scratches or blood contact of some kind. so it only makes sense for all movies

[Danny]

and technically much more terrifying.

[acealive1]

and technically much more terrifying.

damn right. so if someone licks a scab of yours,you're history:lol::lol::lol:

[sandrock74]

I've never had a problem with the virus theory. Of course I'm a big Resident Evil (games) nut!

[Trin]

Exactly. Cholo isn't a good example of "dead from a bite".


I'm pretty sure he was shot. Charlie shot him. Gut wound. That'll do it.
Can someone refresh my memory on when he was shot prior to Kaufman shooting his zombie in the garage?

[acealive1]

Can someone refresh my memory on when he was shot prior to Kaufman shooting his zombie in the garage?


he was shot in the side,looks to be grazed when he was holdin up riley when he let him on dead reckoning. motown shot him. what really got him was the zombie bite.

[SRP76]

He wasn't "grazed". There was a nice hole in him, left side of the lower torso, just under the ribcage. No exit.

We're looking at a nice chunk of lead tearing through the liver, and sitting in the pancreas.

He was finished.

[acealive1]

He wasn't "grazed". There was a nice hole in him, left side of the lower torso, just under the ribcage. No exit.

We're looking at a nice chunk of lead tearing through the liver, and sitting in the pancreas.

He was finished.

if he wasnt grazed,then how come he was able to not be doubled over pain? musta missed the guts entirely. and how do u know there was no exit?

[SRP76]

If the bullet had come out the other side of his body, there would have at least been a hole in his jacket there.

And nobody who gets shot in the movies stays doubled over in pain.:lol:

If it were totally realistic, we certainly wouldn't see people still functioning after getting half their necks ripped out from a zombie bite. They would be rolling and flopping on the deck like fish out of water. Actually, even the sinlge bite on Cholo's wrist would have left him a whimpering heap. Having a tendon torn will do that; imagine the agony of having it bitten through, and half of it pulled from your body like the ligaments on a chickenleg. OUCH, to say the least.

[acealive1]

If the bullet had come out the other side of his body, there would have at least been a hole in his jacket there.

And nobody who gets shot in the movies stays doubled over in pain.:lol:

If it were totally realistic, we certainly wouldn't see people still functioning after getting half their necks ripped out from a zombie bite. They would be rolling and flopping on the deck like fish out of water. Actually, even the sinlge bite on Cholo's wrist would have left him a whimpering heap. Having a tendon torn will do that; imagine the agony of having it bitten through, and half of it pulled from your body like the ligaments on a chickenleg. OUCH, to say the least.



:lol::lol: hell yea. i've had more done and not even flinched. burned my damn hand when i was about 6 and didnt even scream.

[Wyldwraith]

Thanks Yo :)

Wanted to clarify something. Your point about needing a cause so the phenomena can be solved/reversed. I too am glad there is no "cure" in the GAR universe, and happy endings in a world dominated by the walking dead would be the height of idiocy.

That said however I like the idea of a cause that nothing can be done about (the virus). It adds to the horror for me that someone can know PRECISELY how they're screwed, yet be helpless to prevent it. The notion of a well-built, healthy man in the prime of his life being cut down by a nip from the rotting mouth of a dead six year old is chilling to me.

Want to thank you again for the compliments, its always nice receiving some positive reinforcement :)

[jim102016]

if he wasnt grazed,then how come he was able to not be doubled over pain? musta missed the guts entirely. and how do u know there was no exit?

He was TOUGH! Also, he was smoking a bit of grass, does that stuff act as a numbing agent? Never really messed with it

[Legion2213]

He was TOUGH! Also, he was smoking a bit of grass, does that stuff act as a numbing agent? Never really messed with it

It numbs ya brain. :D

Maybe he'd snorted a few lines of coke whilst off-screen or something...or the spliff could've been laced with some.

[Wyldwraith]

Cholo was into all sorts of stuff,
Rich people tend to do Coke and rich women stereotypically like their uppers and downers. Meth or Coke either one would render Cholo almost impervious to the pain of a gunshot. I know a guy who shattered his hand and wrist punching through a windshield while coked up who kept throwing punches with the broken hand.

[Doc]

As far as how long it takes to die from a bite, I would venture to guess that just like a venomous snake bite this would be a variable which would be determined by the person's intial physical condition, where the bite is located, how many bites, how deep, etc.

Yeah your probably right. Thanks for sharing!:D



The idea that a virus is causing it is an invention of the wannabes. Screw them! :lol:

[Yojimbo]

Thanks Yo :)

Wanted to clarify something. Your point about needing a cause so the phenomena can be solved/reversed. I too am glad there is no "cure" in the GAR universe, and happy endings in a world dominated by the walking dead would be the height of idiocy.

That said however I like the idea of a cause that nothing can be done about (the virus). It adds to the horror for me that someone can know PRECISELY how they're screwed, yet be helpless to prevent it. The notion of a well-built, healthy man in the prime of his life being cut down by a nip from the rotting mouth of a dead six year old is chilling to me.

Want to thank you again for the compliments, its always nice receiving some positive reinforcement :)

Wlyd, you rule dude! Doc also rules!

Still I can't get my head to think that there is a virus involved, or at least not one that is causing reanimation, though I have to wonder why folks die from a bite. I will concede that perhaps something in a reactivated corpse's mouth may hasten death, perhaps something like the bacteria in the saliva of a Komodo Dragon which can cause a massive, potentially fatal, systemic infection.

Corpses that are starting to decay-- wouldn't like to be bitten by one.

[Wyldwraith]

Ok here's my pitch to satisfy my theory AND yours Yo,
It isn't a Virus causing reanimation, its a bacteria like a mutant botulism.
Therefore the cause of reanimation and death-by-bite are VASTLY different.

Why, you ask?

Bacteria does on really incredible thing that viruses do not in any appreciable amount. Many of them produce lethal toxins as byproducts of their presence, their waste as it were.

Your Komodo dragon super-infection reference got me thinking. Komodo bites kill because of super infections. But the symptoms of a zombie bite aren't right for that. Super infections take the old, the infirm and the weak TONS faster than the healthy, and their effect would be crucially determined SOLELY by bite placement, # of bites and depth/pervasiveness of contact.

A bacterial toxin however, botulism for instance produces a neurotoxin waste product which can be lethal in some strains at THREE parts per million.

Thats 1 eyedropper drop in a 50 gallon drum of water would kill everyone who drank from it in minutes to hours.

Sound more like a zombie bite? Initial health is irrelevant if you've been massively poisoned. Most incredibly potent byproduct-toxins are impossible to trace without CDC-level resources and worst of all, many act so fast that even if you know the exact bacterial strain causing it..if the bacteria is hyper-resistant to antibiotics (like many strains are becoming/could very well be even moreso in the future) then it is IMPOSSIBLE to stop the constant re-poisoning of the victim, making it utterly INCURABLE.

There you go, Viruses don't cause reanimation and yet bites get a *rational* and totally incurable reason why they are a 100% certain death sentance.

How does the bacteria cause reanimation? As an *incidental effect*...unlike Viruses many bacteria can live in dead flesh. If it happens to be one that likes decaying brain matter/spinal fluid then the same waste which poisons people could be acting as a hyper-catalizing agent...sensitizing the rotten brain to the point that even the tiny amount of static electricity always present in the air would be enough to cause brain-stem neurons and ganglia to begin firing.

Final cause of reanimation: Chemical produced by bacteria which makes brain operate as it did in life, sans oxygen input until such time as decay renders the body immobile by allowing electricity in absurdly tiny amounts to do the job a living system was required for in a human being. Selfsame chemical is a lethal poison to human being in the most minute amounts and is also fast-acting.

Have I satisfied every camp of Origin followers?

And thank you again for your kind words. Worked very hard to dig for a rational explanation which would make everyone happy. The non-viral people can like this one, the "must be electromagnetism" people can like this one, AND the viral people can like this one.

Everyone wins, GAR zombies rock. :)