Gun control and police protection

[kortick]

I did some follow up on the arguement about gun control
all this information is available on the net and is court rulings
and survey of police oficers themselves.
The plain truth is the police have no legal responsibility to protect individuals
and the majority of police favor private citizens not only carrying guns, but concealed ones.

Some facts follow....

Police Have No Duty To Protect Individuals

Underlying all “gun control” ideology is this one belief.” “Private citizens don’t need firearms because the police will protect them from crime.” That belief is both false and dangerous for two reasons.

First, the police cannot and do not protect everyone from crime. Second, the government and the police in most localities owe no legal duty to protect individuals from criminal attack.

Many criminals use firearms to commit their crimes. For example, in 1997 criminals did so in 68 percent of murders and 40 percent of robberies.[2] Thus criminals either have or can obtain firearms. The existing “gun control” laws do not stop serious criminals from getting guns and using them in crimes.

Practically speaking, it makes little sense to disarm the innocent victims while the criminals are armed. As Richard Mack, former sheriff of Graham County, Arizona, has observed: “Police do very little to prevent violent crime. We investigate crime after the fact.”

No Duty to Protect

It’s not just that the police cannot protect you. They don’t even have to
come when you call. In most states the government and police owe no legal duty to protect individual citizens from criminal attack. The District of Columbia’s highest court spelled out plainly the “fundamental principle that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any particular individual citizen.”[5]

FIREARMS

The following survey questions were posed by mail of 22,587 Chiefs of Police and Sheriffs in the United States. It represents a cross section of professional command officers involving every state.

Should any law-abiding citizen be able to purchase a firearm for sport or self-defense? Yes 92.4%

Within the past year, has your agency been called upon to arrest anyone who has made a false statement on an application to purchase a firearm? No 93.2%

Should anyone (such as a convicted felon) in violation of state or federal firearm possession laws, be prosecuted by the U.S. Attorney and, if convicted, receive a maximum prison term? Yes 89%

Do you maintain that criminals currently are able to obtain basically any type of firearm by illegal means? Yes 94.9%

Will a national concealed handgun permit reduce rates of violent crime as recent studies in some states have already reflected? Yes 59.9%

[Andy]

A Fact which the UK goverment chooses to ignore is that gun crime rates have raised every year since handguns where banned here in 1997.

[Skippy911sc]

I think CCW should be passed in all states...since I live in one of the few that do not allow it. A Recent article I read stated that Michigan saw a reduction in violent gun crime since the inception of CCW.

[dannoofthedead]

As a member of the law enforcement community I have to agree with a lot of what you said, though I've never actually heard the part about not being responsible for providing protection. It does seem to make some sense though. The truth is, no matter what you do, if someone wants to commit a crime and they want to use a weapon, they'll get one. They'll steal it, they'll buy it from another crook it doesn't matter. In TN we've got the concealed carry permit and it actually helped a citizen stop an armed robbery not oo long ago.

[kortick]

google the words

police have no duty to protect individuals

and see what comes up

[Marie]

All good, coherent arguements, but sheeple will never grasp the concept that THEY HAVE TO PROTECT THEMSELVES. Not only that, they think depriving us of the means to do so makes them safer. Give it up man, let you voting do the talking.

M_

[wyvern1096]

Having a CCW is just common sense. I look at it the same way as buckling my seatbelt--for the same reasons.

[SRP76]

I laugh at gun control zealots.

"Make it illegal, and people won't have them!"

Yeah, that works real well with cocaine, doesn't it? A whole hell of a lot of people use it for "not being able to have it", don't they?

But they won't listen. Real life is something idealists just don't want to understand. They think the world is a perfect little fantasy land.

[major jay]

The pro-gun control argument is there are more people killed in crimes of passion and accidents than there are in premeditated crimes.

[Legion2213]

A Fact which the UK goverment chooses to ignore is that gun crime rates have raised every year since handguns where banned here in 1997.

Aye, when you outlaw guns, only outlaws have guns....yet it seems that a lot of people are totally unable to grasp this simple fact.

Some interesting quotes bellow, I haven't checked them, but if they are wrong, I am sure somebody will correct me...


In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, approximately 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

In 1928, Germany established gun control. From 1939 to 1945, 13 million Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally ill, and others, who were unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

In 1935, China established gun control. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents were unable to defend themselves and were rounded up and exterminated.

In 1964, Guatemala established gun control. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

In 1970, Uganda established gun control. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

In 1956, Cambodia established gun control. From 1975 to 1977, one million "educated" people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.


And stuff....

[MaximusIncredulous]

Isn't it funny how repressive governments benefit the most from gun control?

[FoodFight]

http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/04-278.ZS.html

[dannoofthedead]

Wow. Thanks man. Normally when they call about child custody or restraining orders we refer them to an attorney or the S.O. since its a civil matter.

[IRA_LCPL]

I grew up in Two countries that believe in complete and utter gun control and look how well off they are. Protistant paramilitaries kill hundreds of inocent Catholics in Ireladnorth ad south every year and in respons the IRA arms up and goes looking for them, If some of these private citizens were allowed to carry a weapon the whole of both countries wouldbe better off detering violece agains Civves and therefore keeping others from reacting with extrme and utter violence. Also keeping out columbian Cartells and russian mob from selling the Guns to BOTH sides. In my expeiance the control of firearms serves only oppresive governments that fear armed revolt from there own people. Rightfully so that a government should fear its citizenry, if you fear the government that is supposed to serve you there is somthing terribly wrong with the system. I now live in the States in wich the constitution of Inaliable it is written w have the right to keep own and bare arms. We also have the write to a well armed trained and maintained Malitia ( a malitia is to be fully independant from federal and official government rule it is written in the constitution), But every time on pops up look what happens the fedral Bureu of Idiots rolls in and slaughters woman and children for what?? Men and woman training to be proficient with weaponry and owning the same so they can protect the rights the feds give them??? I still defend the US as a former Marine an also someone who is reenlisting but I support the the true constitution and what we SHOULD stand for.

Thank you for rading my long rant I do this quite often so forgive me

[_liam_]

Protestants kill hundreds of Catholics every year?

Maybe not!

- if you didnt live on the other side of the planet maybe you'd realise that the days of the true IRA are over and what we have today is just a vicious gang - they don't care about the people.

[IRA_LCPL]

I understand that this conversation last night I go off what I Knew when I lived there years 7 years ago

[paulannett]

Protestants kill hundreds of Catholics every year?

Maybe not!

- if you didnt live on the other side of the planet maybe you'd realise that the days of the true IRA are over and what we have today is just a vicious gang - they don't care about the people.


All there ever was was a vicious gang. Oh I forgot, they are freedom fighters... just like the noble extremists in the middle east. :lol:

[Legion2213]

IRA - No better than the Islamist filth who butchered thousands of innocents in the twin towers, the Madrid subway, Night clubbers in Bali or commuters in London...or either of the opposing prodi or catho terrorist filth in NI for that matter.

Seriously, if you wanted to alienate anybody who is half decent on this forum you couldn't have wished for a better start.

[paulannett]

IRA - No better than the Islamist filth who butchered thousands of innocents in the twin towers, the Madrid subway, Night clubbers in Bali or commuters in London...or either of the opposing prodi or catho terrorist filth in NI for that matter.
Seriously, if you wanted to alienate anybody who is half decent on this forum you couldn't have wished for a better start.

Quoted and bolded. I'm in full agreement. :thumbsup:

[_liam_]

Oh so the IRA were just a bunch of thugs who lost it one day?

Youre just as clueless as that other idiot, the IRA was a natural response to hundreds of years of rape, opression and murder at the hands of the british.

Do you know that a black and tan isnt just a drink?

I think if you don't know what's what you should just shut up about stuff like this, because it's no joke.

[paulannett]

Liam, you really do think you know everything about everything. You've always been a smug little git!

Two points, I'm going to raise.

1) I was born, raised and I still currently live in Belfast, Northern Ireland.

2) I've read all round the subject and was taught the A-Z's of it back at school.

Don't think you can lecture me. Because I didn't raise a point, doesn't mean I don't know it and recognise it.

I know what the British did and I know that the IRA could almost be justifiable (even though they were primarily police and solider murderers) back in the formation of my country, but it still does not change the fact that for the last 40 years (particularly), they have been (along with the INLA, RIRA, PIRA) little more than murdering scum. Just like the UVF, the UDA, LVF(who I have more experience than your average), RHC, RHD etc etc.

[capncnut]

You backwards thinking twat.

You've always been a smug little git!
That's two people you've flamed today. Regardless of whether we agree or disagree with people here, there is no need for this kind of talk. I'm not getting on your case or anything but the words speak for themselves.

[paulannett]

I'm glad the words speak for themselves.

1) If you think I'm harsh, you would've been preaching to around half of the members here only a couple of years ago. Ya know, back when this forum was interesting and used to REALLY kick ass.

2) I call it as I see it. If I think an IRA supporting scumbag is a backwards thinking twat, I'll sure as Hell call him one. I called him a lot worse, but decided for community spirit, I'd tone it down. If I think someone is a smug little git, who believes arrogantly he is always right, I will call him out too.

Capncnut, I appreciate the concern, thanks, but it's unneeded!:)

[Andy]

Play nicely people or dont play at all :p

[_liam_]

Liam, you really do think you know everything about everything. You've always been a smug little git!

Two points, I'm going to raise.

1) I was born, raised and I still currently live in Belfast, Northern Ireland.

2) I've read all round the subject and was taught the A-Z's of it back at school.

Don't think you can lecture me. Because I didn't raise a point, doesn't mean I don't know it and recognise it.

I know what the British did and I know that the IRA could almost be justifiable (even though they were primarily police and solider murderers) back in the formation of my country, but it still does not change the fact that for the last 40 years (particularly), they have been (along with the INLA, RIRA, PIRA) little more than murdering scum. Just like the UVF, the UDA, LVF(who I have more experience than your average), RHC, RHD etc etc.

Yes i am aware of how they carry on now

was it not me who just said they are now just a vicious gang who don't care about the people?

I think you are losing sight of the continuity between my posts

I'm saying the British were out of order but the IRA eventually became out of order themselves, and you seem to agree with me, so what are you taking issue with?

Yeah fair play, you live in Belfast, but half my family are in jail becuase of the troubles & i nearly got nailed by the Omagh bomb, so it's fair to say we both know our onions on the subject.

Like most wars, both sides were out of order in the end.

This absolutely does not apply to you, but I will not stand for the queasy pseudo nationalist semi racist daily mail middle class neo con knobheads who sometimes frequent this good forum going around saying "f*cking provo scum, britain all the way", because i'm a good man and i believe everyone is entitled to a decent education.

As such it's my duty to educate ignorants when they go around mouthing off because they want to feel like they are politicised & in the know.

and don't call me a smug little git, i'm older than you so the correct term is "aloof wanker"

[IRA_LCPL]

I got an Idea here Lets lay off political Sh*te cause all of us can argue untill we are purple in the face. Point is You dont like me I dont care to much for a few of you. back to the point of Gun control. Actually let me say this I support what the Provos USED to be I was actually an Armed robbery victem and stabbed in the thigh by a man claiming it was for the cause in Dublin thats when I moved in with my other Grandma in free Derry in the North and was sent to the emergancy room cause some Orange boys threw me a beatin outside the Catholic school I went to. THATS my stand on the whole situation. I came to the U.S. for work and then joined the Marines so I could deal with PUNKS like them.You got a problem with me I got a problem with you lets leave it at that. NOW back to gun control in either of those situations if I would have had the piece I now own I would have come out fine and them not so much keeping them from perhaps doing it again to somone else thats my stand on Gun control.

[SoCalLoco]

I don't know a lot about the IRA, but they are some bad mother****ers. Atleast in the movies.

I think a lot of nationalist groups and militias have justifiable grievances that need to be addressed, and I believe they are antagonized by law enforcement and whatever government it is they're railing against too. But having said that, when you bring civilians into the picture and start terrorizing innocents, you need to take a look at yourself and re-evaluate the so-called "cause" you're espousing.

But as for a lot of the terrorist attacks that happened in the 80s that were blamed on the IRA, and even some of the attacks that have happened more recently and blamed on islamic terrorists, I think most of them were false flag operations and COINTELPROs.

A while back, there was an article in the AP about Israelis trying to set up al-Qaeda-like networks in the West Bank as to justify building the fence and setting up more checkpoints and what not. Then you have the two MI-6 agents that wrote the book saying how they infiltrated the IRA and masterminded bombings and robberies in order to justify a stronger crackdown in the Ulster. Then you have the whole 9/11 and 7/7 bombings. But I won't go there. I'm sure everyone here has heard enough of that. Then you have the Pakistani ISI taking out Bhutto and blaming it on al-Qaeda groups.

It makes you wonder if heads-of-state are any better than the so-called terrorists they're always railing against.

But back on topic. I believe law-abiding Americans have every right to own anything short of a thermo-nuclear weapon and should be able to keep it on their person at all times. The second amendment was put there for a reason, and was also the second highest priority on the bill of rights, following only free speech, a free press & freedom of religion. It's not about hunting either. It's about putting it to the man if the man ever becomes a tyrant.

[Yojimbo]

As a member of the law enforcement community I have to agree with a lot of what you said, though I've never actually heard the part about not being responsible for providing protection. It does seem to make some sense though. The truth is, no matter what you do, if someone wants to commit a crime and they want to use a weapon, they'll get one. They'll steal it, they'll buy it from another crook it doesn't matter. In TN we've got the concealed carry permit and it actually helped a citizen stop an armed robbery not oo long ago.

As a non-law enforcement, NRA gun owner I thank you for your candor. It is refreshing to hear this from an officer.

I have many friends who are police officers, and I realize that they would rather no one but themselves be armed. Certainly it's safer for them since they can carry, but not one of them would ever feel safe outside their homes without their carry piece.

I can say that during the Los Angeles Riots of 1992, callers that requested help from the LAPD during the first few days were told that they were on their own. Police officers were not dispatched to my friend's house who was reporting that a man was trying to break down her front door. The 911 dispatcher, in fact, asked her if she had a firearm and then told her to use it to defend herself.

CCW should be allowed for any properly trained US citizen who has no criminal background. Unfortunately, in Los Angeles, CA, issuances of CCWs are very very rare.


The pro-gun control argument is there are more people killed in crimes of passion and accidents than there are in premeditated crimes.

Yeah, but this happens in Japan where they do not even allow cops to have pistols. In Japan, the majority of the murders are in fact crimes of passion, and typically they are committed with kitchen knives. Ban those kitchen knives, and the Japanese will continue to commit crimes of passion with chopsticks, or their bare hands, or toliet brushes. I do understand what you are saying, but my point is only that crimes of passion will always occur, whether or not guns are avaliable.

I admit that I am largely ignorant on the subject of the IRA (as an American, unfortunately, we are as a whole not really aware of what happens elsewhere, sad to say) but I can see that emotions run high on this issue. I can appreciate that is is a hot topic for many of my fellow posters who have direct experience with this issue. It occurs to me, however, that if emotions run so high as to make a civil and friendly discussion about this issue difficult here on this board then the issue surely must be a real bitch to work out in the real world.

Thinking about it, I have seen us delvove over issues as mundane as whether running zombies are kosher, etc, so I guess this is par for the course anytime any of us disagree over issues we feel strongly about.