The Archbishop of Canterbury condoning Sharia laws in Britan

[LoSTBoY]

Might I be the first to release my rage at this poor excuse for a religious coup. (Again)

It is a one way street. Try to do this in their world and a killing is granted.

Tell them to fix there own road before telling us how to fix our own.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7235550.stm

[SymphonicX]

people have taken this guy's comments completely out of context. I hate this religious **** but what he's basically saying is that certain allowances be made for laws in finances and divorce pertaining to Muslim couples and families and that religious context be applied to court proceedings and also that more understanding be made of religious belief systems and how they apply not just to Sharia but to Orthodox Jewish religion etc etc....he's not suggesting that all women wear burkhas or whatever...its The Sun jumping on their stupid little bandwagon again, putting half naked women out the dude's house with "BASH THE BISHOP" printed all over their cheap rag. Pathetic.

[Tricky]

Muslims shouldnt be treated differently to the rest of us while they are in this country,the law of the land is the law of the land & they should either abide by it or leave.Im sick of the way people in high places seem to be intent on bending over backwards to appease muslims.

[SymphonicX]

I think the time to proclaim that this is purely a "christian country" or an "english country" would have been in the 1950s....times have changed and so have the population, in fact its changed so dramatically over the last 40 years its unrecognisable, its not a bad thing, its progress...we are a multifaith, multicultural country and the Archbishop's text tries to reflect that. These tabloid bastards have taken maybe two or three lines from his essay and twisted it to sound like Tricky claims it to be "bending over backwards" - in reality the AB is just suggesting that certain provisions be made to reflect the current state of the demographic in the UK. He's not suggesting laws be changed, he's just suggesting that rights be added for religious courts and practises that exist alongside UK law.

here is his original text, read it then make a decision:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/07_02_08_islam.pdf

[Neil]

people have taken this guy's comments completely out of context. I hate this religious **** but what he's basically saying is that certain allowances be made for laws in finances and divorce pertaining to Muslim couples and families and that religious context be applied to court proceedings and also that more understanding be made of religious belief systems and how they apply not just to Sharia but to Orthodox Jewish religion etc etc....he's not suggesting that all women wear burkhas or whatever...its The Sun jumping on their stupid little bandwagon again, putting half naked women out the dude's house with "BASH THE BISHOP" printed all over their cheap rag. Pathetic.

Well said!

[Danny]

....its.the.sun. *shrugs like main character of a sitcom to his audience*

[Tricky]

Well take the sun out of the equation,& there is still a massive backlash over his comments,from people like the archbishop of york (who knows all about stone age laws,having been imprisoned & tortured for his beliefs in uganda),senior politicians,the general public,most other newspapers & even from muslims themselves!sharia law cannot & shouldnt be implemented in this country,full stop!such a move would quite easily end in civil war,especially further down the line,"give them an inch,they take a mile" and all that.
Im interested in what the pope will say about this,im sure he'll have an opinion one way or the other

[SymphonicX]

Well take the sun out of the equation,& there is still a massive backlash over his comments,from people like the archbishop of york (who knows all about stone age laws,having been imprisoned & tortured for his beliefs in uganda),senior politicians,the general public,most other newspapers & even from muslims themselves!sharia law cannot & shouldnt be implemented in this country,full stop!such a move would quite easily end in civil war,especially further down the line,"give them an inch,they take a mile" and all that.
Im interested in what the pope will say about this,im sure he'll have an opinion one way or the other

scaremongering and prejudice there.

Do you actually know what Sharia law is? How it applies to Muslims? You're also missing the fact that Sharia law can ONLY apply to Muslims and even so exists somewhat outside of the realms of the Koran, its a cultural guidance system. the AB was just calling for more distinction between that. Read the essay he wrote, read the whole thing, you'll be glad you did.

I'll save you the time and post a small section:

"If shar’ designates the essence of the revealed Law, sharia is the practice of actualizing and applying it; while certain elements of the sharia are specified fairly exactly in the Qur’an and Sunna and in the hadith recognised as authoritative in this respect, there is no single code that can be identified as ‘the’ sharia. And when certain states
impose what they refer to as sharia or when certain Muslim activists demand its recognition alongside secular jurisdictions, they are usually referring not to a universal and fixed code established once for all but to some particular concretisation of it at the hands of a tradition of jurists. In the hands of contemporary legal traditionalists, this means simply that the application of sharia must be governed by the judgements of representatives of the classical schools of legal interpretation"

the AB goes on to write....

"The second issue, a very serious one, is that recognition of ‘supplementary jurisdiction’ in some areas, especially family law, could have the effect of reinforcing in minority communities some of the most repressive or retrograde elements in them, with particularly serious consequences for the role and liberties of women. The ‘forced marriage’ question is the one most often referred to here, and it is at the moment undoubtedly a very serious and scandalous one; but precisely because it has to do with custom and culture rather than directly binding enactments by religious authority,"

further more:

"If any kind of plural jurisdiction is recognised, it would presumably have to be under the rubric that no ‘supplementary’ jurisdiction could have the power to deny access to the rights granted to other citizens or to punish its members for claiming those rights. This is in effect to mirror what a minority might themselves be requesting – that the situation should not arise where membership of one group restricted the freedom to live also as a member of an overlapping group"

[Tricky]

Who is scaremongering?me or the arch bishop of york?you cant have two sets of laws seperate of each other in one country,especially the UK,it just doesnt work!you think honor killings & all that should be legal for UK muslims under sharia law?it is already going on in this country but it doesnt make it right & it doesnt fit in with UK laws on murder!at present a muslim father who murders his daughter over arranged marriage or "being too western" or whatever would be charged & jailed for it,imagine if sharia law for muslims is introduced & they can just get away with it seen as its "right" in their culture,there would be nothing to protect the muslim girls who dont want to live like that,UK law would not be allowed to intervene,or if it did it would go completely against the idea of letting them have sharia law in the first place :confused:
I say things should be left as they are (which they will be anyway,the archbishop of canterbury aint a politician and has no say in UK law)

[MinionZombie]

I think the whole thing should just be left alone. Britain has it's long-establish law of the land, that's just how it works here.

If I went to live in a Muslim country - not that I would, if I was to move far off to anywhere it'd be Canada probably, to hang out with GAR!! :) - I'd abide by their law of the land.

When in Rome and all that jazz.

Regardless of the specific comments, it raises a separate issue, and you can't have two sets of laws in the same country. You have the law of the land and that is that, otherwise you might as well make special compensation for every single group of people who have their own little codes and practices and bla-bla-bla ... whereas the established, easier, and generally fairer option is the classic law of the land for everybody living in Britain which is already here - i.e. leave it be.

*dusts hands* Simple as.

If such things were left well alone, there'd be far less Muslim bashing...but to be honest, I still don't hear enough normal, every day Muslims speaking out against the sort of tripe that circles them - often spoken by people who shouldn't be giving socio-political speeches, or by the chattering classes in their expensive dining kitchens supping on £50 bottles of red wine - people who aren't even Muslims themselves! Rather, the overly sensitive PC-obsessed psychopaths who've long since lost the original sight of political correctness.

*looks disdainfully at the utterly useless, chattering classes*

It's just a generally accepted way across the globe, you enter someone else's country, you abide by their law of the land - which is either average, really strict, really lax, or anywhere in between. You abide by their social laws too - such as in some countries you don't show the soles of your feet, or you only wave or greet with your right hand...stuff like that.

[SymphonicX]

Who is scaremongering?me or the arch bishop of york?you cant have two sets of laws seperate of each other in one country,especially the UK,it just doesnt work!you think honor killings & all that should be legal for UK muslims under sharia law?it is already going on in this country but it doesnt make it right & it doesnt fit in with UK laws on murder!at present a muslim father who murders his daughter over arranged marriage or "being too western" or whatever would be charged & jailed for it,imagine if sharia law for muslims is introduced & they can just get away with it seen as its "right" in their culture,there would be nothing to protect the muslim girls who dont want to live like that,UK law would not be allowed to intervene,or if it did it would go completely against the idea of letting them have sharia law in the first place :confused:
I say things should be left as they are (which they will be anyway,the archbishop of canterbury aint a politician and has no say in UK law)


Oh my God I'm being ranted at by the inventor of Scrabble.

NO ONE IS SUGGESTING that there are "two laws separate of each other.£ - read the document and you'll see that.

No one supports honour killings, that's inherrent to Hinduism just as much as Islam and is in fact a CULTURAL problem, not a religious one, and certainly has NOTHING to do with Sharia law. Read the document and you'll see that.

Sharia law doesn't mention ANYWHERE that murder is acceptable. In fact if you drop your prejudice and ignorance and read about Sharia, Islam, Imans and the general ethos of Islam you'll see that the religion condemns violence, especially against your own family.

Where does it say that UK law wouldn't be allowed to intervene in a murder case? The Sharia courts don't even come into murder cases for the most part, and if they did would just to be give insight into the religious beliefs of the murderer and how they do NOT fit in with Islamic culture. READ THE DOCUMENT AND YOU WILL SEE THAT. In fact, read the quotes that I f**king posted dude, before running your anti-islam mouth off because you think you know everything about it from what you've read in The Daily Star. Jesus!!!!




If such things were left well alone, there'd be far less Muslim bashing...but to be honest, I still don't hear enough normal, every day Muslims speaking out against the sort of tripe that circles them - often spoken by people who shouldn't be giving socio-political speeches, or by the chattering classes in their expensive dining kitchens supping on £50 bottles of red wine - people who aren't even Muslims themselves! Rather, the overly sensitive PC-obsessed psychopaths who've long since lost the original sight of political correctness.

*looks disdainfully at the utterly useless, chattering classes*

It's just a generally accepted way across the globe, you enter someone else's country, you abide by their law of the land - which is either average, really strict, really lax, or anywhere in between. You abide by their social laws too - such as in some countries you don't show the soles of your feet, or you only wave or greet with your right hand...stuff like that.

*sigh*

the AB was NOT suggesting that "the law of the land" (I'm starting to hate that phrase after this week) be changed.

that's completely the opposite of what he's saying.

He's suggesting integration for the followers of those religions into the legal system.

I kinda agree though that "when in Rome" etc...but these people have been here for two or three generations now, so why not have some of what they consider "rights" be added to the legal system - the AB even said to infringe on ANY one group's rights would be a bad thing and a political minefield. He's totally aware of the "dangers" of encroaching on the indiginous people here - but let's not go into indiginous discussions because I fear we'll all discover that one way or another, we're not in Rome and haven't been for hundreds of years.

[Khardis]

I think the time to proclaim that this is purely a "christian country" or an "english country" would have been in the 1950s....times have changed and so have the population, in fact its changed so dramatically over the last 40 years its unrecognisable, its not a bad thing, its progress...we are a multifaith, multicultural country and the Archbishop's text tries to reflect that. These tabloid bastards have taken maybe two or three lines from his essay and twisted it to sound like Tricky claims it to be "bending over backwards" - in reality the AB is just suggesting that certain provisions be made to reflect the current state of the demographic in the UK. He's not suggesting laws be changed, he's just suggesting that rights be added for religious courts and practises that exist alongside UK law.

here is his original text, read it then make a decision:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/07_02_08_islam.pdf

Britain is still something like 90% White... Plenty of time left to proclaim English and Christianity as its national language/religion.

Jeez even the US is only 68-70% White Euro stock.

[SymphonicX]

Britain is still something like 90% White... Plenty of time left to proclaim English and Christianity as its national language/religion.

Jeez even the US is only 68-70% White Euro stock.



Its a constant longing for identity which causes us to proclaim anything as National....we're all so varied that calling anything national is quite insulting if you think about it....and the point of an equal and balanced society is that we don't force our **** down other people's throats (that goes for the extremists too)....

[Khardis]

Its a constant longing for identity which causes us to proclaim anything as National....we're all so varied that calling anything national is quite insulting if you think about it....and the point of an equal and balanced society is that we don't force our **** down other people's throats (that goes for the extremists too)....

Its not insulting to make a national language/religion in a country like England... England has 1000s of years of national history.

[SymphonicX]

Its not insulting to make a national language/religion in a country like England... England has 1000s of years of national history.

yeah and we'll keep beating our chests over it and going "ug ug ug you tarzan, me jane, me English, you German...ug ug ug"....

its bad enough with other nations consistently doing it, let alone us having to keep up with the Jones'...national language is tangiable however, as we all generally have a basic understanding of it and use it to communicate...having a national religion is stupid...*I'm* not religious...so its not the whole nation that's Christian is it? Its bull crap, more stuff designed to separate us and put us in little boxes....its insulting to my intelligence to throw me in a box with the rest of the country just because of majority rule....more like MOB RULE. I hate it....I can't stand witch-hunts and yet 500 years down the line we're still doing it.

[Khardis]

yeah and we'll keep beating our chests over it and going "ug ug ug you tarzan, me jane, me English, you German...ug ug ug"....

its bad enough with other nations consistently doing it, let alone us having to keep up with the Jones'...national language is tangiable however, as we all generally have a basic understanding of it and use it to communicate...having a national religion is stupid...*I'm* not religious...so its not the whole nation that's Christian is it? Its bull crap, more stuff designed to separate us and put us in little boxes....its insulting to my intelligence to throw me in a box with the rest of the country just because of majority rule....more like MOB RULE. I hate it....I can't stand witch-hunts and yet 500 years down the line we're still doing it.

The downfall of countries usually come from lack of national identities. WHy do you hate England so much?

[Tricky]

Oh my God I'm being ranted at by the inventor of Scrabble.

NO ONE IS SUGGESTING that there are "two laws separate of each other.£ - read the document and you'll see that.

No one supports honour killings, that's inherrent to Hinduism just as much as Islam and is in fact a CULTURAL problem, not a religious one, and certainly has NOTHING to do with Sharia law. Read the document and you'll see that.

Sharia law doesn't mention ANYWHERE that murder is acceptable. In fact if you drop your prejudice and ignorance and read about Sharia, Islam, Imans and the general ethos of Islam you'll see that the religion condemns violence, especially against your own family.

Where does it say that UK law wouldn't be allowed to intervene in a murder case? The Sharia courts don't even come into murder cases for the most part, and if they did would just to be give insight into the religious beliefs of the murderer and how they do NOT fit in with Islamic culture. READ THE DOCUMENT AND YOU WILL SEE THAT. In fact, read the quotes that I f**king posted dude, before running your anti-islam mouth off because you think you know everything about it from what you've read in The Daily Star. Jesus!!!!



*sigh*

the AB was NOT suggesting that "the law of the land" (I'm starting to hate that phrase after this week) be changed.

that's completely the opposite of what he's saying.

He's suggesting integration for the followers of those religions into the legal system.

I kinda agree though that "when in Rome" etc...but these people have been here for two or three generations now, so why not have some of what they consider "rights" be added to the legal system - the AB even said to infringe on ANY one group's rights would be a bad thing and a political minefield. He's totally aware of the "dangers" of encroaching on the indiginous people here - but let's not go into indiginous discussions because I fear we'll all discover that one way or another, we're not in Rome and haven't been for hundreds of years.


I have a friend of my family who is a muslim,yet he is happy to follow the laws of this country,doesnt agree with all this sharia law crap,sends us christmas cards & even has a drink with us!very westernised bloke & a decent bloke at that,so dont you go spouting off that im some BNP daily star reading idiot because you dont even know me,shut your arse & give your mouth a chance to speak sir!im not one for biting on forums but you clearly seem to be flying off the handle with the gusto of a rabid hound just because i dont agree with your view of a utopian society in this country

[SymphonicX]

The downfall of countries usually come from lack of national identities. WHy do you hate England so much?

no, the downfall of countries come from an over abundance of identity....think nazism, think stalinism....


I have a friend of my family who is a muslim,yet he is happy to follow the laws of this country,doesnt agree with all this sharia law crap,sends us christmas cards & even has a drink with us!very westernised bloke & a decent bloke at that,so dont you go spouting off that im some BNP daily star reading idiot because you dont even know me,shut your arse & give your mouth a chance to speak sir!im not one for biting on forums but you clearly seem to be flying off the handle with the gusto of a rabid hound just because i dont agree with your view of a utopian society in this country

wait a minute, you're the one spouting off ignorant **** such as "if a girl was killed because of honour the UK courts would not be able to intervene"....I'm only calling you up on that man, if you don't want to be accused of reading The Daily Star then maybe read some stuff that was clearly posted in front of you - I'm not having a go, it just annoys me when people go off on tangents when clear evidence of the contrary is presented in one way or another. Don't hit me with the "utopian society" thing...so I am an idealist? You're a pessimist!!!! Which is worse?!? haha...also, regailing me with tales of your muslim mates, whilst on the outside is very admirable, doesn't prove you know jack **** about Sharia law (neither do I for that matter, but I can admit that without jumping to conclusions - plus I have read some of the Koran and I also have small insights into Imans and their idealogy and way of life through both speaking to muslims and reading texts from scholars posted on other webboards)...

seriously I'm not biting you, as you put it, but really, you sort of jumped into this thread and threw around some wild accusations against muslim culture which weren't exactly fair - I'm not saying they are perfect, FAR FAR FROM IT....but there are obvious reasons why what you're saying was ignorant and prejudice yet you act like *I* am the one who's in the wrong?

As for the other post about me hating England - At this juncture I feel it relevant to mention that I hate nationalism in any sense of the word, it disgusts me...."love the world, not your country" is my ethos...so I shy away from this inter-country elitism that we all band around like it means anything.

[Khardis]

no, the downfall of countries come from an over abundance of identity....think nazism, think stalinism....



wait a minute, you're the one spouting off ignorant **** such as "if a girl was killed because of honour the UK courts would not be able to intervene"....I'm only calling you up on that man, if you don't want to be accused of reading The Daily Star then maybe read some stuff that was clearly posted in front of you - I'm not having a go, it just annoys me when people go off on tangents when clear evidence of the contrary is presented in one way or another. Don't hit me with the "utopian society" thing...so I am an idealist? You're a pessimist!!!! Which is worse?!? haha...also, regailing me with tales of your muslim mates, whilst on the outside is very admirable, doesn't prove you know jack **** about Sharia law (neither do I for that matter, but I can admit that without jumping to conclusions - plus I have read some of the Koran and I also have small insights into Imans and their idealogy and way of life through both speaking to muslims and reading texts from scholars posted on other webboards)...

seriously I'm not biting you, as you put it, but really, you sort of jumped into this thread and threw around some wild accusations against muslim culture which weren't exactly fair - I'm not saying they are perfect, FAR FAR FROM IT....but there are obvious reasons why what you're saying was ignorant and prejudice yet you act like *I* am the one who's in the wrong?

As for the other post about me hating England - At this juncture I feel it relevant to mention that I hate nationalism in any sense of the word, it disgusts me...."love the world, not your country" is my ethos...so I shy away from this inter-country elitism that we all band around like it means anything.


Are you saying there is no more Germany or Russia?

You are wrong. Lack of nationalism is what kills nations. Think Rome. Think Persia. Large empires comprised of millions of different races ethnicities, different laws and regulations for all. They couldn't stand united.= and so fell apart.

[SymphonicX]

Are you saying there is no more Germany or Russia?

You are wrong. Lack of nationalism is what kills nations. Think Rome. Think Persia. Large empires comprised of millions of different races ethnicities, different laws and regulations for all. They couldn't stand united.= and so fell apart.

I'm not saying there is no more Germany or Russia - I'm saying they are good examples of governments that have in the past lead entirely on national "pride" and it ended up with the death of millions....and nations in ruins.

You can't base society's current issues on civilisations past...sure its a good marker but I think you'll find we've come a long way since worshipping and trying to please the big yellow circle in the sky...(although, ironically this is a religious debate so I guess if you think about it, it may add up....however we're talking about at least ONE society here that doesn't base its entire fibre on worshipping a deity and so forth, so there IS hope)

I just don't think its good underestimating the power of the human species - your attitude is VERY pessimistic, I know you'll say "realistic" but I just don't see that as an excuse to separate ourselves from each other and carry on living in little boxes...time's are changing so are the people, very slowly but its still happening, and to base our lives on the mistakes made 1000 years ago in Caesar's reign would be very short sighted indeed....we CAN co-exist...**** man I've been living in Hounslow, West London for the last 6 years (just moved out however) and the Muslim/polish community is huge there, so is the white community and I have never seen ONE fight on the streets - however moving to Surrey which is a majority white population, and I've seen at least three in the last three months, and met random people who's first lines to me were some racist slurs...its economical, that's always been my point...it has nothing to do with race, religion, culture etc...its ALL to do with economics, rich vs poor etc...

I just plain refuse to believe that we all hate each other so much, when we don't have a clue about what people really think, its always those at the top making decisions and casting stones which turns people against each other...in this case its the extremist leaders who are twisting their religion to suit their political gains....if those blind followers were educated to the reality of their situation, things would be different - same goes for America and the UK...its all political non-sense but in actuality has NOTHING to do with how we relate to each other on a humanistic level.

[MinionZombie]

*pops head in*

Keep it civil, lads, cheers.

*pisses off to play Project 8*

[Legion2213]

The arch druid is a prick.

One law for all...special rights for nobody. This is the UK, not Somalia.

[clanglee]

Im sorry sym, but when you are in my house you abide by my rules. Same goes with countries. If they want to institute their own laws, they can damn well vote some muslims into office to help change the system of laws. You can respect other cultures all you like, but the nation should not bend to any culture or special interest. I think the Rome comparison is very appropriate. This has nothing to do with a bunch of people" worshiping a large disk in the sky" Rome was an expansive, well organized, well controlled state, until it over-extended itself. To many cultures to rule over will do that to a state.

[MinionZombie]

Besides, it's human nature to want to have your own space, your own areas and your own cultures - it's why the 'I live in the world' argument doesn't swing with me. While yes it's obviously true, and of course we should all be as nice to each other as possible - there are just some assholes out there determined to be bastards in every single country.

Also, I'm fully in support of national identities - our differences give us strength, resolve and world wide interest. Mash us all together and sap out all the culture definitions and what have you got? An entire world of mushy brown-red-purple-type countries that are just the same as everywhere else.

I think one of the great things about our planet is that you can go to one country and it's one way, go to another and it's different - there's variety, which is after all 'the spice of life' as the saying goes.

You can have national pride, but it doesn't stop you from liking other countries. National pride doesn't mean you are a skin-headed, racist bully - those sort of people are the vast, vast minority.

And on a purely practical, realistic level - one law for one country makes complete sense.

As for the mashed-up-paint analogy, it's why I'm completely sceptical of the EU. I've no problem with trading, no problem with helping countries who are behind us bring themselves up and do things such as improve their economies and their human rights standards, but the problem with the EU is the cultural and law-making bullying that's just spread around like butter on toast.

Each country is so different, with different people and different cultures and ways of doing things - and different laws - you simply cannot rule over everybody with EU law and expect it to work. You cannot rule over everybody with EU culture and expect it to work - because it just won't.

As Labour have shown with abundance, social engineering doesn't work - it just doesn't. It is mankind's natural instinct to define their own culture and to mix as they please, when they please and how they please.

Target-based multiculturalism is a complete joke, leave it be and let whatever happen naturally, while maintaining national identity and law and order and then everybody is happy - or at the very least, the absolute vast, whopping majority is happy.

Perhaps not really within this thread, but I just kinda had a few thoughts to share...end of post...bing-bong.

[Kaos]

Plenty of time left to proclaim English and Christianity as its national language/religion.

Technically, the Church of England is the official religion, but don't take my word for it - see here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_England

Citizens of the UK are subjects of a Christian nation. What is ironic is this arrangement was the very reason the ban on the establishment of an official state church made it into our constitution...as amended. :)

[Publius]

You're also missing the fact that Sharia law can ONLY apply to Muslims and even so exists somewhat outside of the realms of the Koran, its a cultural guidance system.

It only applies to Muslims, true, but it applies to them whether they like it or not. Because if you're a Muslim and decide you don't want to be one anymore, you've just committed the offense of apostasy under Sharia law. Of course, it's true that accommodating one aspect of Sharia law doesn't mean you have to accommodate all.

Here's the next headline, though -- Muslim medical students refusing to wash their forearms to prevent the spread of antibiotic-resistant infections:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/02/03/nislam403.xml

How'd you like to have one of those doctors perform surgery on you? And it's coming to light that polygamous Muslim families in Canada are being paid welfare benefits for each wife in the family, which seems like a bit of an unfair advantage for polygamists.

[MinionZombie]

The sorts Publius points out are the kinds I like to call "bad apple Muslims". Most are no doubt fine and dandy, with a considerable/majority chunk of the fuss surrounding them in the UK no doubt originating from the PC-obsessed, champagne socialist chattering class.

What I want to see however, are everyday Muslims making their voices heard in decrying these B.A.M.'s as idiots who are abusing the faith.

[triste realtà]

Besides, it's human nature to want to have your own space, your own areas and your own cultures

It sure the **** is. And I think that's why America is slave to the grind consumerist sheep central, loss of identity that comes with mishmashing of race. Lowest common denominator and base consumption, etc. Nature is a genius, logically anything against that is **** for brained. In the future, computers will look like brains, cause that's the best you can hope to construct one.:hyper:

[clanglee]

It sure the **** is. And I think that's why America is slave to the grind consumerist sheep central, loss of identity that comes with mishmashing of race. Lowest common denominator and base consumption, etc. Nature is a genius, logically anything against that is **** for brained. In the future, computers will look like brains, cause that's the best you can hope to construct one.:hyper:

Woah woah woah there!! While I do agree that we Americans do have a problem with our overt consumerism, I do not think that we have lost our identity. The thing is, here, individuality is highly praised. It's sort of the cornerstone of our nation. To call us a nation of sheep is unrealistic. Besides, show me any western country that doesn't suffer the same problem. We don't really suffer from a national identity crisis either. Many of us are not often proud of some of the things our nation has done, but not many of us would say we were not proud of being Americans. I for one am quite proud. I would rather live here than anywhere else on earth, and I had the good fortune to be born here. We have a larger national identity than most states. We actually have a pledge of alligence to our FLAG!! I understand that no other countries do this. And judging by the equal, and most times, greater patriotism that most imigrants have when they become citizans, I'd say there are a lot of folk happy to live in this land of "consumerist sheep"

[MinionZombie]

I'll point out that I wasn't decrying mixed race relations, I was decrying forced social engineering...my point being that everybody of all races and genders will want their own personal and cultural space. They'll want to spend time within their own worlds, if you will.

However, true multiculturalism is a very slow and gradual process which happens by the choice of the people - not within a decade under the manipulating, all-control-loving grubby mits of the gubment.

You might as well crack open the barcode tattoo machine in that case...:rolleyes:

[SymphonicX]

Im sorry sym, but when you are in my house you abide by my rules. Same goes with countries. If they want to institute their own laws, they can damn well vote some muslims into office to help change the system of laws. You can respect other cultures all you like, but the nation should not bend to any culture or special interest. I think the Rome comparison is very appropriate. This has nothing to do with a bunch of people" worshiping a large disk in the sky" Rome was an expansive, well organized, well controlled state, until it over-extended itself. To many cultures to rule over will do that to a state.

you're right on that first point there - anyway I never said I agreed with Rowan Williams, just defended his comments because they were taken completely out of whack and also had a nag at anyone in this thread who responded as though he was calling for some mass cull of white people in the UK...!!

I don't think that Rome is necessarily a good example though, I mean yes they were very advanced but still caught up in religion, superstition, things like that....as I was saying, half of the problem there has been eliminated - ie: our government isn't so much like that, we're a LOT more advanced than those days, by far...and we lead by example I reckon - although I will agree adopting two sets of legislation will only lead to problems, but the AB RW wasn't suggesting so much as a plural state rather than a combined one, which is still debatable but there's no justification for the calls to his resignation!!


It only applies to Muslims, true, but it applies to them whether they like it or not. Because if you're a Muslim and decide you don't want to be one anymore, you've just committed the offense of apostasy under Sharia law. Of course, it's true that accommodating one aspect of Sharia law doesn't mean you have to accommodate all.

Here's the next headline, though -- Muslim medical students refusing to wash their forearms to prevent the spread of antibiotic-resistant infections:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/02/03/nislam403.xml

How'd you like to have one of those doctors perform surgery on you? And it's coming to light that polygamous Muslim families in Canada are being paid welfare benefits for each wife in the family, which seems like a bit of an unfair advantage for polygamists.

Yep, apostosy was covered in RW's essay, I totally agree that its completely backwards, and our of order...its funny that you brought up the medical thing, that's a great example of where dual law systems wouldn't work, but I think common sense prevails there and the ethos should be "if you refuse to wash your hands for patient safety, then get lost...the problem here is that certain parts of this culture aren't separated from religion, they're way too intertwined...but as RW said, if we take upon ourselves to have two sets of laws we run the risk of separating ourselves even more, having muslim doctors for muslim people etc...might as well have two separate tax systems as well!

Still as I said, I don't necessarily agree with Rws comments but he wasn't exactly professing that we line up white humans and slaughter them all - he was simply raising issues.

there's a barcode tattoo machine? I want one.

I have always been of the opinion that we, as a species, are tribal, and this is where the problems lie...I am part of the tribe of metalheads, othere are part of the tribe of religion, or tribe of sport, tribe of nations etc etc....and I also believe its the biggest fallacy of human nature....I just see it as a huge human fault, like so many belief systems in the past, witchcraft etc etc...peace will only be achieved when our goals collectively are the same, and that can't happen unless we truly co-exist....which means getting rid of a lot of negative cultural traits - it doesn't mean the good ones can't be kept - for instance there's a great culture in the US of helping out your fellow citizens, things like that...I think we've lost touch with what's truly positive and beneficial to our species - with the word "species" being operative, we're all the same except some of us look a little different, but otherwise we are all made of flesh and blood and once we learn to stop demonising each other in the name of cultural preservation we'll all live a happier life...but as I said, negative cultural traits and positive ones....there are some amazing cultural traits out there that need to be kept, but the negative ones will only fade out with new, advanced, generations....until then I'd say keeping UK and Sharia law separate would be a good thing...

[Khardis]

heh maybe peace is the fallacy and flaw. I like tribalism. I like differences in the world. I cannot imagine how horrible the world would be if everyone was exactly the same.

[SymphonicX]

heh maybe peace is the fallacy and flaw. I like tribalism. I like differences in the world. I cannot imagine how horrible the world would be if everyone was exactly the same.

I agree, 100%...I just don't think that's an excuse to carry on how we've been carrying on for the last 30 years - but its all progress I guess. What I'm trying to say is, we wouldn't have to all be the same for there to be peace (but it would help!)...we just have to find a common ground at the end of the day....but then it gets down to stone casting, at which point I turn my shoulder because I just can't be arsed with it!!

[triste realtà]

The thing is, here, individuality is highly praised. It's sort of the cornerstone of our nation. To call us a nation of sheep is unrealistic. I for one am quite proud. I would rather live here than anywhere else on earth, and I had the good fortune to be born here. We actually have a pledge of alligence to our FLAG!! I understand that no other countries do this.

This looks exactly like good ol' American indoctrination. USA #1!!!
Worship the state, cult of braindeath.:dead:

[clanglee]

This looks exactly like good ol' American indoctrination. USA #1!!!
Worship the state, cult of braindeath.:dead:

Yeah, but the thing is, the U.S. is. . .well until very recently. . #1. Not nearly all of us are braindead state worshiping sheep as you may believe. Great thing is we can feel and say what we want about the state, and ultimately we have the power to change it if neccissary. Out of curiosity, where are you from? By your name I would say Italy, but I could be entirely wrong about that. Is this opinion of yours shared by everyone you know? I only ask so that we know where to bomb next you understand. ;)

Oh and thanks a lot for cutting out all the stuff from my statement that makes the whole make sense. Propagandist!

[SymphonicX]

One thing though - you say individuality is highly praised in the US - well why does your society worship the cult of the barbie doll celebrity and sees fit to outcast anyone who doesn't look that way? Why is so much effort and energy put into plastic surgery, looking good and having a fairly set "image"?

I'm not saying its any different here, but I never claimed to the contrary.

[Kaos]

One thing though - you say individuality is highly praised in the US - well why does your society worship the cult of the barbie doll celebrity and sees fit to outcast anyone who doesn't look that way? Why is so much effort and energy put into plastic surgery, looking good and having a fairly set "image"?

I'm not saying its any different here, but I never claimed to the contrary.

All of what you said is true, except for the extent you imply. In every society there is a swell of vapid and petty people. They are like magpies that cock their head at anything shiny. In America it is just like the Red Hot Chili Peppers' tune, "Californication."

I would agree the numbers in this category are substantial, but I severely doubt it approaches anything like a majority. Most people are grounded. They work, have kids, try to be spiritual, and they play. Most people laugh at Paris and Brittney because they are so out of touch with reality. There is a difference between what you see on TV and the tabloids, and what America is really like. There is good and bad, but you aren't seeing it on CNN, Fox News, or the BBC.

[SymphonicX]

@ kaos: well my experiences come first hand rather than mainstream media....I do get your point though, but then again I was of the same opinion about the US in this matter as I am about the UK - I dunno if its worse over there though but over here its pretty crappy in terms of that. I think the majority are becoming a minority with every new generation - you mention that "They work, have kids, try to be spiritual, and they play" - which means most of your attention there is geared at adults - but the problems lie with today's youth...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not dissing anyone...I cannot be arsed with stereotypes or anything remotely prejudice - but one get's the impression sometimes, from the way we are bringing our children into the world, that a lot more attention is on looks and material goods than anything else.

[clanglee]

Thanks Kaos, that's it exactly. Sym, you are right too of course, There are a large number of idiot fashion worshiping american idles here. But I and most people I know are not among that number. This hollywood mentality appeals to a some people, I guess it must due to the popularity of E entertainment and american Idol and tabloids and whatnot. But In no way does it drive most people's lives. And yes, Britain has many of the same problems. I think this view of us comes from the fact that we are the media/culture center of the world currently. Our culture is our biggest export, and unfortunately the bad goes with the good. You all get to see these cookie cutter hollywood pictures of American life, which does not often reflect the reality of our daily lives.

Our individuality is indeed highly praised. Although ,admittedly, It is not as important as it used to be. We are however a country that was built on the strenght of our tough individuals. Rebels, revolutionarys, outlaws. . .they are all part of our national mythos and identity. Not to mention innovators and inventors.

The U.S. just needs the occasional wakeup call to kick it's butt into gear. But when that happens. . . interesting things always follow.

[Kaos]

I was of the same opinion about the US in this matter as I am about the UK

My GOD! Tell me it isn't spreading?!?:D

Napalm is the only answer unfortunately...

Or if you prefer the Ripley solution....Dust off and nuke it from orbit... it is the only way to be sure.;)