Air powered car... At last!

[Neil]

I've been reading about this thing for years... Great idea!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7241909.stm

http://www.mdi.lu/eng/affiche_eng.php?page=minicats

[Publius]

Very interesting! The big question for a car like that is what kind of range it gets. Although it certainly oughta be easier to set up the infrastructure for air-pumping stations than, say, hydrogen filling stations. You could run the whole system on nuclear and renewable energy sources, since the only input you'd need at the pump is electricity. And it avoids the weight, expense, and nasty chemicals involved with batteries, which are the weak link with electric cars.

[Neil]

Very interesting! The big question for a car like that is what kind of range it gets. Although it certainly oughta be easier to set up the infrastructure for air-pumping stations than, say, hydrogen filling stations. You could run the whole system on nuclear and renewable energy sources, since the only input you'd need at the pump is electricity. And it avoids the weight, expense, and nasty chemicals involved with batteries, which are the weak link with electric cars.

With just air it varies on use, urban or non-urban. Also, with the use of petrol to augment the process the distance vastly increases.

Imaging doing 1,500km with just 2ltr of fuel!!! (non-urban)

For me, poodling to work (urban) I'd just plug it in once/twice a week to fill/compress it up, but use no petrol...

[MinionZombie]

But you know what the really burning question this raises is?

When will there be an air powered TV?! :)

[Neil]

But you know what the really burning question this raises is?

When will there be an air powered TV?! :)

OK! Ghey08 has melted your brain!

[MinionZombie]

OK! Ghey08 has melted your brain!
Well, yes it has actually ... but it was kind of a reference to Zombie Man. :p

[DjfunkmasterG]

Yeah when is Zombie Man going to get his air powered TV?


On topic,

that is one Fugly looking car. I wouldn't want to be caught dead in that thing.

[Neil]

Yeah when is Zombie Man going to get his air powered TV?


On topic,

that is one Fugly looking car. I wouldn't want to be caught dead in that thing.

Yup, not very attractive, but TBH considering how green it is and how cheep it is to run, I don't really car that it's ugly... It's air powered, how cool is that... And can do 1500km with 2ltr of petrol :)

If it works reasonably well, it could really change things!

[Mutineer]

Mesmerizing to think of all of the alternative fuel sources available to us and yet, the big Oil companies and all of their ties just don't want it. If we could just give up our oil dependcy, imagine that.

[MinionZombie]

Ho-ho, and I thought the G-Whiz looked bad! :eek:

Still, an air powered car is so much cooler-an-idea than the electric car.

Although, a car with no grunt to its engine just feels wrong. I was playing PGR4 and an invitational came up to race an electric car - it was totally silent - which was just wrong. :D

Still though, an interesting advance.

But it has to be said, that hydrogen car on Top Gear a few years back actually looked nifty too...except for the funky-future steering set-up, which was just lame. :D

[SymphonicX]

I wouldn't care if it looked like a cardboard box on wheels, if its THAT low on emissions and cheap to run I'd go for it feet first.

I'm holding off on buying a car until I can get one that has great low emissions...

[Neil]

Mesmerizing to think of all of the alternative fuel sources available to us and yet, the big Oil companies and all of their ties just don't want it. If we could just give up our oil dependcy, imagine that.

Supposedly the developer of this air engine has received threats over the years!


Ho-ho, and I thought the G-Whiz looked bad! :eek:

Still, an air powered car is so much cooler-an-idea than the electric car.

Although, a car with no grunt to its engine just feels wrong. I was playing PGR4 and an invitational came up to race an electric car - it was totally silent - which was just wrong. :D

Still though, an interesting advance.

But it has to be said, that hydrogen car on Top Gear a few years back actually looked nifty too...except for the funky-future steering set-up, which was just lame. :D


We need a massive improvement in batteries to make electric cars viable.

Hydrogen fuel - from the little I know - just seems like madness. It takes sooo much energy to produce it? (I think!)

[Kaos]

We need a massive improvement in batteries to make electric cars viable.



Screw batteries for electric cars. I think giant capacitors would work way better. Just a 5 minute charge takes you 300 miles.

Check out this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EEstor

[MinionZombie]

And then of course, there's the rest of the car to think about, the actual materials that make the structure.

I still remember Clarkson putting a Prius beside a 6 litre Mercedes S-Class and asking which was more environmentally friendly - it was the 'evil' Mercedes. While not electric, the materials that made the car were recycled.

Also - think of the horrid gunk inside those batteries, that acid and all sort of chemicals. What happens to those?

I think that episode of South Park about the Prius was f*cking hilarious and well observed.

[ZombiePrototype]

I think that this a great idea and I am sure that with enought time and research the inventor will be able to make the aircar as fast as, and as powerful as a vehicle with an ICE. Also you just know that the oil companies are going to fight anything that is an alternative to what they offer and cuts into their sales/profits especially when a company has an almost 40 billion US dollar profit(yes I said profit) like EXXON-Mobil did in 2007. Sorry I don't know what the exchange rate is for the UK or any other country.

[Neil]

I think that this a great idea and I am sure that with enought time and research the inventor will be able to make the aircar as fast as, and as powerful as a vehicle with an ICE. Also you just know that the oil companies are going to fight anything that is an alternative to what they offer and cuts into their sales/profits especially when a company has an almost 40 billion US dollar profit(yes I said profit) like EXXON-Mobil did in 2007. Sorry I don't know what the exchange rate is for the UK or any other country.

I don't think we'll see air powered cars competing in formula 1 - But that's not really the idea :)

[SoCalLoco]

If you want an air car, just slap some wheels on a hydrafoil fanboat like they use down in the Everglades.

[SRP76]

Not worth it. It only gets 50 miles on a full tank. That would barely get me all the way to work and back each day. If I had to go back out for something after work, I'd have to wait 5 hours to do it while the car "recharges".

If they put bigger airtanks on these things so that a fillup would get you a few hundred miles, it would be a different story.

[Khardis]

lol enjoy your cardboard lemons I am buying a new Mustang GT this summer. 8 Cyl. its going to eat up the road like spaghetti. A warm vibraty feeling all through the guttiwuts.

[Neil]

Suggest you watch this... if only for the stuff about a rotary air engine that looks very exciting too!
QmqpGZv0YT4



Another interesting article:-
http://www.reuk.co.uk/Worlds-First-Air-Powered-Car.htm

Keeps sounding better and better...
- Capable of hitting 68 mph and will have a range of 125 miles
- The cost of running the car will be under £1 per 100 miles travelled.
- The air is filtered by a carbon-filter before it enters the engine, the engine emissions are actually cleaner than the air which went into the fuel tank
- As a by-product you get free air conditioning in the car
- Oil changes are only necessary once every 30,000 miles travelled. Just 1 litre of vegetable oil is required.


Not worth it. It only gets 50 miles on a full tank. That would barely get me all the way to work and back each day. If I had to go back out for something after work, I'd have to wait 5 hours to do it while the car "recharges".

If they put bigger airtanks on these things so that a fillup would get you a few hundred miles, it would be a different story.

I think different models can do different distances etc. And if they augment it with fuel then you get (I think) something like 1500km to 1/2 a gallon... You could drive from LA to NY on one tank!


lol enjoy your cardboard lemons I am buying a new Mustang GT this summer. 8 Cyl. its going to eat up the road like spaghetti. A warm vibraty feeling all through the guttiwuts.

Each to their own...

ps: Nice car, but there other things to take into consideration. Remember you are a member of the most wasteful population on earth... It's a hard habit to break.

[Terran]

Like Kaos mentioned....Super capacitors are sweet......Im still curious as to how efficient and useful that can get...so far things look very promissing....and If these get "up there" than the energy storage probelm are solved.... even in their current state they are useful for energy "recycling"....

Things like these:
Air Cars...
Biodiesal...
Ethanol....
Hydrogen....
All are fundementally flawed for how they are marketed to consumers....

As it stands know, as I understand it, Biodiesal, Ethanol, and Hydrogen take much more energy to make than they yield...especially when you factor in fertilizer....(Im almost certain pressurized air falls into this catagory as well)...

Sidenote: Ethanol and Biodiesal might have some hope left with producing "positive energy yields" with alga cultures ....more research needed....

It just makes no sense....
Why would we burn 100 gallons of crude to get 40 gallons of a less energy dense, less reliable, hydrogen fuel cell
Why would we burn 100 gallons of crude to get 70 gallons of ethanol (ideal corn)....


etc....







Basically with all these cars the probelm remains the same.....where do you get the energy.....

If you have a useful energy source other than oil....it makes no sense to use anything other than electric since very few advancements are needed....(if the capacitors get up there then there is nothing left really to solve)...

Transferring an energy source directly to electric is about as efficient as you can get....



This all being said....ethanol and biodiesal even in their inefficient forms are useful in the sense that it allows the user to make their desired fuel....but this is only a means to an end...If things get so bad that you are sweating manual labor and are growing crops just to make biodiesal or ethanol to drive to work....you would be better off just doing half the work and half the growing and supplying your entire food source and more and just dont go to work......

Im making both ethanol and biodiesal just for the sake of it...just so I know how to do it....useful skill potentially....:confused:


Hybrids are good though...because they increase efficiency despite the fuel used....getting more miles per gallon is never bad....:|

[Neil]

If you have a useful energy source other than oil....it makes no sense to use anything other than electric since very few advancements are needed....(if the capacitors get up there then there is nothing left really to solve)...

Transferring an energy source directly to electric is about as efficient as you can get....

Not aware of this capacitor approach? Got a link?

The issues for electric vehicles:-
1) How efficient is the storage. ie: If the battery goes flat eveyday...
2) How heavy is the storage. ie: If you have to use up so much energy just to lug around a rack of batteries...
3) How messy/ungreen is the storage. ie: If it take a lot of effort to produce the super batteries requires, and they only last 2-3yrs it's a waste of time.

The air car seems like a reasonable compromise for the moment. Even if it uses small amounts of petrol to augment itself.

Love with the air car that when you break, about 10-15% of the energy from breaking is salvaged back into compresses air again :) Suppose exactly the same (if not better) could be done with an electric vehicle...

[Terran]

Not aware of this capacitor approach? Got a link?
Partial is what Kaos posted.... He had a link....

Screw batteries for electric cars. I think giant capacitors would work way better. Just a 5 minute charge takes you 300 miles.
Check out this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EEstor
But heres an additional about "Super Capacitors" they are alreadly used in the automotive buisness....and as they become more efficient theyll likely be used for more and more functions.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercapacitor

Really neat stuff .....if they can adjust their efficiency slightly itll be awsome....If I had money Id invest




The issues for electric vehicles:-
1) How efficient is the storage. ie: If the battery goes flat eveyday...
2) How heavy is the storage. ie: If you have to use up so much energy just to lug around a rack of batteries...
3) How messy/ungreen is the storage. ie: If it take a lot of effort to produce the super batteries requires, and they only last 2-3yrs it's a waste of time.


Well the questions differ depending on the electric technology in question....Battery technology hasnt gone very far in the last decade or so....but capacitors have changed drastically....
1) Well "efficiency" in capacitor storage is great....Stores charges great...and charges extremely quickly....amount of storage though is still lacking, currently...well "officially"......see Kaos post....
But even just regular car batteries arent "too" terrible

2)Batteries can be a probelm....usually you quit adding batteries when you get up to a 40 mile range on a charge....some Battery cars are still considered "hybrid" cars...because they have a petrol engine of some sort to compliment the electricity....talk about fuel efficiency!.... Capacitors are rather light....though thats up in the air cause I dont know if the more power dense ones are significantly heavier....

3)Capacitors are about as "green" as you get....Long shelf live....non toxic materials....
Batteries....yeah they have probelms....but are almost entirebly recycleble as long as people participate in it....which I dont see as any more of a probelm as a "green" petrol ....

[Kaos]

Not aware of this capacitor approach? Got a link?



Yeah, it's in my post, ya dope! :moon:

See here: http://forum.homepageofthedead.com/showthread.php?p=132010#post132010

Thanks for the backup, Terran.

[Neil]

Yeah, it's in my post, ya dope! :moon:

See here: http://forum.homepageofthedead.com/showthread.php?p=132010#post132010

Thanks for the backup, Terran.

Ooops!

Yes that's interesting... My point(s) still stand though:-
1) Light enough so as to be efficient
2) Can hold enough charge or long enough
3) Have a good life span (ie: don't wear out after a couple of years)
4) Are not so complex to build that they in effect undo any good that actually do


If Terran's answers are correct then it indeed looks great!

SO we have two potentials, electric car, or air car... Good! Now just get them on the market!!!!!

[Kaos]

SO we have two potentials, electric car, or air car... Good! Now just get them on the market!!!!!

I don't know why we have to choose? I think a hybrid air/super capacitor car would be cool.

[Neil]

I don't know why we have to choose? I think a hybrid air/super capacitor car would be cool.

Twice as much stuff to carry around so too innefficient.

The capacitor one sounds great, again as long as:-
1) The storage is not too expensive/dirty to produce
2) It has a long life - Doesn't get worn out in a year

The beauty of the air car is I imagine the storage tanks should be easy to produce...

ps: In the event of a nasty crash in the air car, there's a loud bang. What happens in the electric car? Where does that voltage go :eek:

[Kaos]

Twice as much stuff to carry around so too innefficient.


Even the air vehicle said that hybrid using liquid fuel (albeit on a smaller scale) would be the way to go.

[Mike70]

i am holding out for a flying car:cool:

like avery brooks said, "where is my flying car. i want my flying car."

[Marie]

Finally, a car that runs on something that our Governments produce in abundance. Hot air.:D

M_

[kortick]

There are major issues with the design of these capacitors.
I have been following EEStors for a while.
Many of the issues are like the following:

This is the most coherent arguement:

It deals with the physics of titanates and pervoskites.

The energy is not proportional to the voltage squared. That is EEStors problem. Energy is equal to 1/2CV2 only for linear dielectrics. Barium titanate is highly nonlinear, and the energy is approximately proportional to V, not V squared for a high field application like energy storage. EEStor only calculates energy storage -- never measures it, so they don't have to face this reality. By the way -- this creates a factor of several hundred difference between their calculated energy density, and the actual.

Just so people know the basics, capacitence is the proerty or quality of a
circuit that tends to resist a change in voltage.
(Its counter is an inductor which resists chage in current.)

A capacitor is two plates separated by a non conductive barrier called a dialectric. In simple terms if you had a circuit with a battery, a light, and a capacitor, all in series, initally the light would go on then fade out as the capacitor charged to full. Then if you remove the battery and connect the wires the light would go on as the cap discharged and fade out as it drained.

that is howw these caps would work, you would charge them, then remove them from the charge and place them in say a car. they would then discharge energy into the engine, running it for how ever long it takes for
them to fully drain.

The claims EEStors make about how long it would take
to drain don't follow scientific formula and they have never
shown a functional model to prove other wise.

[Khardis]

Suggest you watch this... if only for the stuff about a rotary air engine that looks very exciting too!
QmqpGZv0YT4



Another interesting article:-
http://www.reuk.co.uk/Worlds-First-Air-Powered-Car.htm

Keeps sounding better and better...
- Capable of hitting 68 mph and will have a range of 125 miles
- The cost of running the car will be under £1 per 100 miles travelled.
- The air is filtered by a carbon-filter before it enters the engine, the engine emissions are actually cleaner than the air which went into the fuel tank
- As a by-product you get free air conditioning in the car
- Oil changes are only necessary once every 30,000 miles travelled. Just 1 litre of vegetable oil is required.



I think different models can do different distances etc. And if they augment it with fuel then you get (I think) something like 1500km to 1/2 a gallon... You could drive from LA to NY on one tank!



Each to their own...

ps: Nice car, but there other things to take into consideration. Remember you are a member of the most wasteful population on earth... It's a hard habit to break.

What if I said I didn't care if I was part of the most wasteful population on earth? I don't believe in the global warming hoax. I don't believe in lessening my standard of living because some green heads think I should while they fly around in private jets giving lectures to the peasants bout how they should live.

[kortick]

Actually Khardis Global warming is not a hoax.

It is not a man made thing either

It is a totally natural, cyclical event
that happens every so many thousand years

we can not prevent it

it is proven that antarctica was once tropical

then the magnetic poles shifted
that happened millions of years ago

we are not going thru anything as drastic
but it is happening

pouring certian chemicals into the environment
isnt very smart for sure

but to say we have any control over
global warming is like saying we
can change the earths orbit.

Buy your mustang.
It really wont make a difference.

[Khardis]

Actually Khardis Global warming is not a hoax.

It is not a man made thing either

It is a totally natural, cyclical event
that happens every so many thousand years

we can not prevent it

it is proven that antarctica was once tropical

then the magnetic poles shifted
that happened millions of years ago

we are not going thru anything as drastic
but it is happening

pouring certian chemicals into the environment
isnt very smart for sure

but to say we have any control over
global warming is like saying we
can change the earths orbit.

Buy your mustang.
It really wont make a difference.

Oh I agree when I say Global Warming I mean in terms of it being man caused a la the religion of the green heads. I know its totally natural. If it wasn't the polar caps wouldn't be melting on Mars too :P

[Neil]

What if I said I didn't care if I was part of the most wasteful population on earth? I don't believe in the global warming hoax. I don't believe in lessening my standard of living because some green heads think I should while they fly around in private jets giving lectures to the peasants bout how they should live.

You might be right... A lot of scientists (more knowledgable than us) say otherwise...

But:-
1) What's wrong with driving from NY to LA on one tank of petrol?
2) What's wrong with trying to conserve something, that when it's gone... It's gone!

If the air car came out for a reasonable price I'd seriously consider it...


it is proven that antarctica was once tropical

http://www.worldproutassembly.org/archives/2006/06/scientists_say_1.html

[Khardis]

You might be right... A lot of scientists (more knowledgable than us) say otherwise...

But:-
1) What's wrong with driving from NY to LA on one tank of petrol?
2) What's wrong with trying to conserve something, that when it's gone... It's gone!

If the air car came out for a reasonable price I'd seriously consider it...



http://www.worldproutassembly.org/archives/2006/06/scientists_say_1.html

Yes and those scientists use faulty data and have been dubunked time and time again.

And there is nothing wrong with using 1 tank of gas driving form wherever to wherever. IF thats what you want. I personally don't want that. And I don't want it forced on me by Green Nazis. You want to conserve something? Go for it, don't expect me to though. When the oil is gone, you're right its gone, society as we know it will end, and we will go back to living like the 18th century again. At least I would have lived nice and comfy before that though not driving a cardboard box that barely carries two people.

You conserve gas, I am going to conserve my living standards.

[kortick]

Wow Khardis

That is a particularly insular attitude

From that position one can safely determine:

a. you don't have children

b. you don't plan on having children

c. you don't like children

Of course you are free to hate kids
if you want.

It just seems you view this entire
world as disposable, and you are
controlled by your self interests.

Oddly, this off center attiude appeals
to my nihilist tendencies.

[Neil]

Yes and those scientists use faulty data and have been dubunked time and time again.

And there is nothing wrong with using 1 tank of gas driving form wherever to wherever. IF thats what you want. I personally don't want that. And I don't want it forced on me by Green Nazis. You want to conserve something? Go for it, don't expect me to though. When the oil is gone, you're right its gone, society as we know it will end, and we will go back to living like the 18th century again. At least I would have lived nice and comfy before that though not driving a cardboard box that barely carries two people.

You conserve gas, I am going to conserve my living standards.

To be frank more data from the debunkers is generally debunked...

ps: You don't have kids do you?

[Khardis]

Wow Khardis

That is a particularly insular attitude

From that position one can safely determine:

a. you don't have children

b. you don't plan on having children

c. you don't like children

Of course you are free to hate kids
if you want.

It just seems you view this entire
world as disposable, and you are
controlled by your self interests.

Oddly, this off center attiude appeals
to my nihilist tendencies.

I don't have any children, but I am big enough to admit that many of my ideals may change radically if and when I do. (Most new parents do).