So another shooting... How long until someone does it 'methodically'....

[Neil]

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5i72zWlWRLvc1ejGI5WpefItEjKCAD8UQS1EO2

Most of these mentalists just plough in without really thinking so luckily the casualty figures are low...

But we're going to get someone who takes it seriously and locks a door and just goes through everyone in the room one at a time or something... It's bound to happen while these mentalists continue to get guns...

Alternatively, every student is armed to prevent this sort of thing from happening, but you'll just end up with more random shootings from arguments gone too far (etc)...

[acealive1]

they're looking for the wrong people IMHO


i went to my old high school the year after i graduated to see an old teacher and to get my senior year book and they followed me around like i was bin laden

[Cykotic]

and Columbine wasn't methodical?

[Mike70]

charles whitman went about it pretty methodically at the univ of texas. he ended up killing 14 people and wounding 31, using a high powered rifle from the observation deck of the 32 story univ admin bldg.

[Khardis]

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5i72zWlWRLvc1ejGI5WpefItEjKCAD8UQS1EO2

Most of these mentalists just plough in without really thinking so luckily the casualty figures are low...

But we're going to get someone who takes it seriously and locks a door and just goes through everyone in the room one at a time or something... It's bound to happen while these mentalists continue to get guns...

Alternatively, every student is armed to prevent this sort of thing from happening, but you'll just end up with more random shootings from arguments gone too far (etc)...
Guns are banned on college campuses though. This couldn't have happened.

[kortick]

The thing is, they found 48 shells on the ground
and 2 shot gun cases.

He had time to shoot, reload, and shoot some more
because all anyone else could do
was run or try to hide

if there was armed security on the campus
or professors allowed to carry guns this would
have ended a lot sooner.

college/school shootings are now, sorry to say
a reality.
making these kids wait until the police finally arrive
to help them while they are picked off at will
just plain makes no sense.

There needs to be armed security on campus.

he shot 48 rounds at people who had no way of
defending themselves.
that should not be allowed to happen.
somebody should have been able to stop him.

support gun control-while you bury your kids.

[Legion2213]

The thing is, they found 48 shells on the ground
and 2 shot gun cases.

He had time to shoot, reload, and shoot some more
because all anyone else could do
was run or try to hide

if there was armed security on the campus
or professors allowed to carry guns this would
have ended a lot sooner.

college/school shootings are now, sorry to say
a reality.
making these kids wait until the police finally arrive
to help them while they are picked off at will
just plain makes no sense.

There needs to be armed security on campus.

he shot 48 rounds at people who had no way of
defending themselves.
that should not be allowed to happen.
somebody should have been able to stop him.

support gun control-while you bury your kids.


Great post.

[Khardis]

Great post.

agreed

[MaximusIncredulous]

Hmmm, go to a college filled with gun-toting kids. One half wanna kill the other kids because they go off their meds or can't get a date with them and the other half have itchy trigger-fingers because they're worried about the other half that want to kill them.

I was never into it but now I'm beginning to see the merits of attending uni over the internet.

[kortick]

No Max
Dont talk silly

No one is saying arm any kid who goes to school.

However there is a law in most colleges
that dont allow even the security guards to carry guns,
or even professors who have gun permits.

Are you saying trained security guards
suffer from the problems you described?

Are you saying kids at schools are not in danger
and should be protected, or should they be
killed like target practise or traumatised forever?

If it was your kid who was blown away
by some crazy I would bet you would
have wished there was armed security there
to save their life.

As long as it is happening to someone else.....

[Staredge]

This is the mistaken argument that everyone makes. "Arm everyone." No.....arm those who are willing to go through the process of obtaining a CCW permit. Let the professors who choose to do so, and are legally allowed to, carry. If there are students who go through the process....why not? It's ok for them to do so ANYWHERE else in a state that allows CCW. What makes you think that if they don't open fire anywhere else that they will at school?

Khardis...that was EXACTLY what I said when I heard. mmm mmmm. Couldn't have happened.

Will

[bd2999]

Not sure if anyone being armed would have helped. Its not like you see this sort of thing coming long in advance to defend yourself much except trying to dive away from what I gather.

The police showed up at most of these things pretty fast but by the time they do the damage is usually done. Its not like campus security can be everywhere, and to be honest most of them are incompatent anyway. I would never allow students to carry guns on campus, I could see things like that getting out of hand. All you would need is some dude to get pissed that one of his buddies made out with his girl and instead of a scuffle you get a gun shot. Bad mojo right there.

The methodical thing just makes you glad that most of these people just go in. Not that anyone dieing is a good thing, but there is always the worst case scenerio. Not sure what that is for everyone, but a couple kids dying is bad enough. Hate to see what would happen if he chained the doors or something like that. I am just wondering what is bringing so much of this on all at once. Not that it never happened before but it seems to be coming fast and furious now. Are kids really that pissed off about stuff? I mean I can honestly say I have never seriously thought about shooting anyone and I did not do perfect in all my classes. I just dont see the need for going this far. Are these the "daddy never hugged me" kids or something? Crazy.

[Arcades057]

Whenever you get something like this happening, nutters on both sides of the argument come out. They seem to think it's all or nothing, when the solution is actually quite easy.

We've seen as a nation that we cannot stop a lone suicidal person from walking into a school and trying to take as many people with him as he can; whether it's the parents, friends, guidance counselors, or police, none of them can be everywhere at once, nor can every little flippant comment or angry utterance be a cry for help.

Schools, as Khardis mentioned, are gun free zones--they are also drug-free zones, so there should be no guns or drugs in school... Yet there are plenty of drugs, and incidents such as this tragedy show us that guns can just as easily be brought into the school by a broken person who no longer cares enough for their own well-being and that of others.

The solution is a good one, as it would serve to provide numerous jobs: Increase security. It's such a simple, idiot-proof idea that the fact that it has NOT been implemented is asinine. When a store is robbed, you hire security; when a bank is a sweet target, you hire security; when a concert crowd is very boisterous and it looks like violence could potentially occur, you hire more security.

For some reason with children dying all the time in school due to maniacs with guns, we decrease the security presence. We make our softest targets even softer, a practice which flies in the face of common sense and preservation.

This event will likely not change anything, unfortunately, unless one of the students is the son/daughter of a politician or a cop or something--regular kids apparently aren't worth enough to change something over. This event will likely not change the minds of many people, but if you think long and hard about this event on your way to work or school and imagine you or your child being in that situation, defenseless as a maniac has time to reload their firearm multiple times, would you want you or your child to die because they had to wait for the perfect window of opportunity for the police--who are not legally bound to protect your life or well-being--to respond?

Events like this do not anger me; they make me feel bad that another slew of young people have died because well-meaning older people can't pull their heads out of their asses and realize that it is NOT all or nothing.

It's just that your kids are at least as important as your money in a bank.

[Neil]

and Columbine wasn't methodical?

Not really... Imagine a busy canteen with two of them, plenty of ammo and pipe bombs...

It always seems in the heat of the moment they just go into a bit of a frenzy...

[Staredge]

How much security can you put in a school? Can't have someone in every classroom.....tuition is too high as it is. Besides, if the shooter knows security is there, they'll take them out first. (ever wonder why these guys go after schools? They no noone is armed and security is ineffectual. Don't hear about people shooting up police stations very often, do you?)

As for arming the students: I don't necessarily buy the "more guns=more shootings" arguments, but for the sake of the discussion lets take the students out. Why can't teachers carry if they so choose? The argument that students might take the gun away from teachers is idiotic. The whole point of CCW is CONCEALED. You don't go around telling everyone. That negates the point.


Will

[EvilNed]

Guns are banned on college campuses though. This couldn't have happened.

I'm sure these guys would happily give away their guns and not try to smuggle them in somehow.

[Khardis]

I'm sure these guys would happily give away their guns and not try to smuggle them in somehow.

You cannot smuggle guns in. Its illegal and therefore it cant happen.

[Neil]

How much security can you put in a school? Can't have someone in every classroom.....tuition is too high as it is. Besides, if the shooter knows security is there, they'll take them out first. (ever wonder why these guys go after schools? They no noone is armed and security is ineffectual. Don't hear about people shooting up police stations very often, do you?)

As for arming the students: I don't necessarily buy the "more guns=more shootings" arguments, but for the sake of the discussion lets take the students out. Why can't teachers carry if they so choose? The argument that students might take the gun away from teachers is idiotic. The whole point of CCW is CONCEALED. You don't go around telling everyone. That negates the point.


Will

Armed teachers isn't such a bad idea, but then you're turning teachers into a security force, which they might not wish to be signed up for. At the first sign of trouble I suspect they'd be just as eager to get out of there as anyone else, rather than get into a fire fight...

[kortick]

...or they might just decide they dont
want to get shot in the back and killed
and maybe use their gun training to protect themselves
and the students.

Remember we are talking about teachers who
are trained and certifed to carry. We are not
talking about handing out guns to every teacher as
they show up the first day of class.
Those carrying guns would have chosen to do so.

But I think it was Arc who said it
there needs to be better security in schools.

Hire an outside agency and let them
come in and determine what would be the
best way to protect the kids.

Nothing is 100%, but at least you would have
a chance of stopping this kind of thing before it
started or bringing it to an end quicker.

Right now there is no chance
to do either.

And to say this will never happen again is fantasy.
How many kids have to die before policies change?

[Neil]

...or they might just decide they dont
want to get shot in the back and killed
and maybe use their gun training to protect themselves
and the students.

Remember we are talking about teachers who
are trained and certifed to carry. We are not
talking about handing out guns to every teacher as
they show up the first day of class.
Those carrying guns would have chosen to do so.

But I think it was Arc who said it
there needs to be better security in schools.

Hire an outside agency and let them
come in and determine what would be the
best way to protect the kids.

Nothing is 100%, but at least you would have
a chance of stopping this kind of thing before it
started or bringing it to an end quicker.

Right now there is no chance
to do either.

And to say this will never happen again is fantasy.
How many kids have to die before policies change?

Teachers are teacher... Now you are suggesting that they must become security. Some of these individuals simply may not want that sort of role... They hear a gun shot somewhere and now they have the responsibility of going to investigate?

Would be interesting to see how many teachers would want to be armed...

ps: You are allowed more than 30 characters per line :)

[SRP76]

they're looking for the wrong people IMHO


i went to my old high school the year after i graduated to see an old teacher and to get my senior year book and they followed me around like i was bin laden

See, I told you to shave that beard off once in awhile, and those things wouldn't happen....:D

[p2501]

charles whitman went about it pretty methodically at the univ of texas. he ended up killing 14 people and wounding 31, using a high powered rifle from the observation deck of the 32 story univ admin bldg.

Whitman had the advantage of being semi-detached from the "action". i think the trend with these shooters is that they get caught up in the action and just start capping off at anything. where as with whitman since he was elevated and away it was more methodical.

[SRP76]

I think these shooters just missed a few good parental beatings while they were growing up into the f*cktards they became.

[Mike70]

the only thing about security in schools that i am leary about is - who is going to pay for it? hopefully not local school districts which in a lot of places are already financially strapped. further taxation? frak that. not to sound like a snob or anything (but i probably will anyway) my kids are no more going to go to a public school in america than i am going to sprout wings and fly to the moon. i will willingly pay for security in the school that they attend BUT i am already a bit put out that i have to pay for schools that my kids will never attend and that i don't give any single dry rat turd about.

[p2501]

the only thing about security in schools that i am leary about is - who is going to pay for it? hopefully not local school districts which in a lot of places are already financially strapped. further taxation? frak that. not to sound like a snob or anything (but i probably will anyway) my kids are no more going to go to a public school in america than i am going to sprout wings and fly to the moon. so i am already a bit put out that i have to pay for schools that my kids will never attend and that i don't give any single dry rat turd about.
farm it out on Homeland security? i dunno.

[Terran]

:rolleyes:
I think these shooters just missed a few good parental beatings while they were growing up into the f*cktards they became.
Yeah....they totally decided to go on a shooting rampage on their peers because they lacked a spanking or two when they were children....I mean seriouslly....be realistic....


I mean look back on your own youth....could you invision yourself purchasing guns and stockpiling ammunition in a long term plan to murder many of your classmates only because your parents missed out punishing you when that one time you stayed up late without permission....:rolleyes:...Its easy to oversimplify these sort of things...but it accomplishes nothing...

[Mike70]

farm it out on Homeland security? i dunno.

no those morons need to be done away with anyway. i don't really know what the solution is. i simply don't want to have to shell out anymore to support public school districts i care nothing about.

[p2501]

no those morons need to be done away with anyway. i don't really know what the solution is. i simply don't want to have to shell out anymore to support public school districts i care nothing about.
agreed but so long as were pissing fund at DHS i figured we may as well get something more for it.

as for a viable solution. i dunno. i'm skeptical of their actually being one.

[SRP76]

:rolleyes:
Yeah....they totally decided to go on a shooting rampage on their peers because they lacked a spanking or two when they were children....I mean seriouslly....be realistic....


I mean look back on your own youth....could you invision yourself purchasing guns and stockpiling ammunition in a long term plan to murder many of your classmates only because your parents missed out punishing you when that one time you stayed up late without permission....:rolleyes:...Its easy to oversimplify these sort of things...but it accomplishes nothing...

Let's see, can you envision anybody that had any kind of discipline doing this? No.

"One time you stayed up late without permission"? It's a little more than that: when a person doesn't have discipline in his or her life, it sends the message that they don't have to worry about consequences to their actions. How hard is that to figure out?

Not that I care; you'll be getting shot, not me.

[SoCalLoco]

Another shooter driven stark-raving mad from psychotropic drugs. If people wouldn't hand these meds out to people like candy and really take the time to treat mental illness or regulate the medicine this kind of stuff wouldn't happen as often.

Whether it's Columbine, Virginia Tech, N. Illinois, or whereever else, all these guys whigged out AFTER being prescribed psychotropic, anti-depressants.

It's just like that crap they used to give people for high blood pressure. Everything was fine and dandy until 12,000 killed over with blown out arteries in 2 years' time.

But no, instead of taking on the prescription drug cartels and their FDA goons that keep people sick and hooked on their poisons and medicines and psychotropic zombie juices, the talking heads in congress and in the media target the 99.9% of gun owners that DON'T run into schools shooting everything to hell. No, they'll just hike the price of shells, crack down on inter-state sales of firearms, and make it an even bigger nuisance for responsible gunowners to keep and bear arms. The typical knee-jerk reactionary garbage we seen with the '68 gun control law and the Brady bill. The same crap we got with the Patriot Act, and all the other laws and bi-laws and statutes they push down our throats when somebody goes ape ****.

Give it 20 years. You're going to see a day when Uncle Sam knocks on your doors and wants you to turn in your guns. From your ol' lady's .38 to your grampa's scattergun, he's going to want them all. Uncle Sam is going to take your guns like Roosevelt took all the private gold in 1933, and like the National Guard did in Louisiana after Katrina. They took everyone's guns whether or not they were in the evacuated parrishes or not and still to this day have not given them back. School shootings and the big, bad al-qaeda, bin laden boogey man, and every other fear the feds can manipulate us with will get the public behind such a blatant disregard of the 2nd amendment.

[Mike70]

Another shooter driven stark-raving mad from psychotropic drugs. If people wouldn't hand these meds out to people like candy and really take the time to treat mental illness or regulate the medicine this kind of stuff wouldn't happen as often.

Whether it's Columbine, Virginia Tech, N. Illinois, or whereever else, all these guys whigged out AFTER being prescribed psychotropic, anti-depressants.

It's just like that crap they used to give people for high blood pressure. Everything was fine and dandy until 12,000 killed over with blown out arteries in 2 years' time.

But no, instead of taking on the prescription drug cartels and their FDA goons that keep people sick and hooked on their poisons and medicines and psychotropic zombie juices, the talking heads in congress and in the media target the 99.9% of gun owners that DON'T run into schools shooting everything to hell. No, they'll just hike the price of shells, crack down on inter-state sales of firearms, and make it an even bigger nuisance for responsible gunowners to keep and bear arms. The typical knee-jerk reactionary **** we seen with the '68 gun control law and the Brady bill. The same **** we got with the Patriot Act, and all the other laws and bi-laws and statutes they push down our throats when somebody goes ape ****.


okay socal. i am going to go way out on a limb here and agree with you mostly. with the exception that i think that anti-depressants probably help the vast majority of people that take them BUT i am right there with you on the knee jerk reaction and gun control bullsheyat. and that is what it is bullsheyat. fookers that support "gun control" need to be taken out and hanged or better yet shot. besides i think that this is pretty clear on the whole matter:

2nd amendment: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


shall not be infringed is pretty clear to me. i don't think the federal govt. or the state govts. have any business messing around with gun control.


guns being legally only in the hands of sick govt. muppets like the police scares the sheyat out me, in fact it scares me way more than criminals ever will- i live in a state where carrying a concealed handgun on your person is perfectly legal and i am all for that. in fact a couple of morons tried to jack a dude up in cincinnati at an ATM after this went into effect and got blown the frak away for it. good riddance. to paraphrase bill hicks - i think the planet just got lighter because we are minus a couple of morons.

the whole ATM robbery spree thing in cincinnati was one of the major pushing points for the gun laws being changed. i was on the fence about this until a dear friend of mine (who happens to be my son's godfather) was almost murdered in one of these ATM jackings. he was shot in the neck and barely managed to survive the whole thing. after that i am all for arming everyone. like i have said in other posts - going along with the very lenient gun laws, ohio has one of the strictest "self-defense" laws probably anywhere. if you ventilate someone, you had better have had a damn good and proveable reason.

i'm trying to drag us onto the subject of gun laws but i think i might have been mentally effected by agreeing with socal:lol:

[Terran]

"One time you stayed up late without permission"? It's a little more than that.

Thats exactly my point....Its all more complicated then smacking the kid around....Theres plenty of examples of kids gettign smacked around plenty and that being the driving force behind their violence....Most notiably sociopaths....


Teaching Consequences?....Try to define that concept to someone who is about to shoot as many people as they can before they put the same gun against their head...Normal mindset "consquences" dont even apply to whats going on in their head...


Look into most of these killers....their background...the opportunities that "disicipline" could have been instilled...its hard to imagine how such action would have modified their behaviour to any significant extent....many of these killers were "normal" for most of their lives



There is such a thing as mental illness...that even the most "traditional" parenting cannot correct .

[mista_mo]

In many cases, it was OVER discipline that brought them over the edge. The lack of freedom, the lack of being able to express themselves, not being able to act the way that their personality had molded itself to be, because they had over bearing parents.

A line needs to be drawn when it comes to discipline. Too little can cause someone to run wild, with the mindset that they can do whatever they want to. Too much can cause that person to act out in an emotional rage when the constraints are lifted. Although, most people will fall into those two categories to some extent, the ones that will stand out will be the ones to take it to the extreme.

Oh, and the reason anti-depressents are so wide spread is, and I know this may shock you, but they f*cken work! Really, who'd think it eh? They aren't the end all cure all of mental health cures, but they contribute very much to the overall healing. Anyone who takes anti depressents without follow-ups is pretty much crazy, as a trained doctor needs to see how you are coming along, how you are responding to the medicine etc., and they also need to council you.

What could help stop these things from happening? Well, instead of looking right at the security issues of the school (which is still very important), or gun laws, what about the actual mental health of the person? all it would take is one visit to the school psychiatrist from a depressed, or confused person, to stop this from happening.

Afterall, if the person sees someone, writes something down, or tells someone something that is, for lack of a better word, completely disturbing to no end, the proper authorities could moniter the individual and screen him and check him for further signs of mental trauma. (Seung-Hui Cho should have been under far more scrutiny then he was before he shot up Virginia Tech based on the evidence teachers and class-mates had).

[Arcades057]

As to who would foot the bill for the added security, I'm not sure. The bill wouldn't be too large anyway--cops only make about 35-40k in most places, security guards less than that. All of these fund raisers and such that schools have, maybe the kids can miss out on a field trip and the cash from that goes to the security? I don't know.

[FoodFight]

Methodical? It took Andrew Kehoe months of preparation to commit the largest mass school killing in U.S. history (Bath MI, 1927).

Here's an interesting link to peruse. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15111438/

[Mike70]

great link foodfight thanks.


Myth No. 2. “He just snapped.”

Rarely were incidents of school violence sudden, impulsive acts. Attackers do not “just snap,” but progress from forming an idea, to planning an attack, to gathering weapons. This process can happen quickly, but sometimes the planning or gathering weapons are discoverable.

Although the researchers point out that there is no "type of student" who is likely to commit such violence, there are "types of behaviors" that are common to planning or carrying out the attacks. This pattern, they say, gives some hope of intervening before an attack.

i think this one is most interesting. i have never thought that a teenager could simply snap (yes i realize that it does happen every so often) over one or two comments/actions and decide to go on a killing rampage. high school is a horrible, terrible time for lots of kids and if you add to that the fact that being a teenager is one of the most confusing, exasperating times of your life- the recipe for this sort of thing to happen is going to be there no matter what laws are passed, gun detectors put up, security hired.

i don't think the vast majority of these kids were nutters/crazy. they were simply people who had had too much of whatever it was that other folks were dishing out to them and decided to end the pain once and for all, while inflicting some of that pain they have been feeling onto others. people that felt powerless because they were picked on/picked at/harrassed, etc.

i certainly don't condone things like is - but i do understand where a lot of it comes from.