The Real Debate Batman (1989) or Batman Begins (2005)

[EvilNed]

www.budo.org is the site for the Dojo where I trained Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu for several years. It's located in Gothenburg, Sweden and is the biggest Dojo in Europe. A film that tries to take itself seriously, and at the same time incorporates ninjas is silly. That's my entire point. How can that be null and void? I'm not trying to convince you here, but I'm pretty sure Hawkboy and Bassman can see my point, whereas you seem to be stuck up on details (Look who's talking, I guess... Silence!)

[DjfunkmasterG]

Here is an excerpt from an article on the oldest living Ninja master. Ninja is a compound word from the Japanese characters for "stealth" or "endurance" and "person," a reference to their traditional role as spies, mercenaries and assassins working for medieval warlords. Traditional weaponry such as swords and throwing stars feature prominently is Hatsumi's lessons, as do handclaws for climbing walls, blow darts and chili pepper dust to throw in an opponent's eyes. But true ninjutsu, Hatsumi says, is self-discipline and balance in the boardroom and the battlefield. It's about mastering one's weaknesses, including laziness and fear, and exploiting a rival's needs, such as sex and pride. Read the full article here. http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...d/14434176.htm

[bassman]

I'm not trying to convince you here, but I'm pretty sure Hawkboy and Bassman can see my point, whereas you seem to be stuck up on details (Look who's talking, I guess... Silence!) Actually, I don't. So you've studied some form of martial arts and you have an appreciation for it....but you DON'T want it to be taken seriously in a movie? I mean, "Batman Begins" is probably the only film that I have seen that portrays ninjas the way I have always imagined. They never say anything, they make no sounds, and they do what their master says and when he says it. And while I know nothing about ninjas, I always assumed that they were originally like some form of early army. So the way they form the rows and move on command while Bruce is finishing his training is just like how an army would "fall in line" and follow the general's(or whoever) commands. Films like "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon"(although I enjoyed it) are films where I could see your argument having some credibility. That ninja stuff is ridiculous.....fighting on tops of trees and such. It has been a good while since I last watched "Batman Begins"(I might have to check it out this weekend after all this ) and I have absolutely no knowledge of any kind of martial arts training or a ninja's way of life.....but the ninjas on "Batman Begins" were probably some of the best I've seen......aside from my beloved "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles".

[EvilNed]

That's the problem. Portraying ninjas in the way you have always imagined is what creates this obstacle for you, which you cannot overcome. You need to unlearn what you have learned. Ninjas did not dress in black. Ninjas did not run around killing people. Ninjas did not wield ninja-tos. Ninjas didn't do "all those things". Ninjas were spies, that's it. The ninjas in the Batman film are pure Hollywood ninjas. Fiction. They don't exist, never have. If you think the ninjas in Batman Begins were some of the best you've ever seen, then you clearly have no idea of what a ninja is.

[bassman]

If you think the ninjas in Batman Begins were some of the best you've ever seen, then you clearly have no idea of what a ninja is. Didn't I say that I knew nothing about ninjas several times throughout that post, numbnuts? And what obstacle are you talking about? There are no obstacles, here. Obviously you are the one with an obstacle because you have a problem with a group of ninjas that appear in a....say it with me...FICTIONAL film for about 15 minutes... You sure do seem to think you know all there is to know about ninjas. Have you been in training and now you are a ninja master that knows all and uses his knowledge on an internet message board? Gotsta tell be the TRUTH about ninjas, right? By the way, are the members of The League of Shadows ever refered to as "ninjas" in "Batman Begins"? I'm pretty sure they aren't. It seems like you were the one that labeled them ninjas at the beginning of this thread. Basically they were just trained terrorists with masks....no one ever calls them ninjas.

[EvilNed]

They dress like ninjas. They wear the fictional, legendry ninja equipment. They use ninjutsu. Even an idiot could figure out what they are. Go ask anyone, anyone at all who trains martial arts (better yet, Ninjutsu) if they thought the depiction of ninjas in Batman Begins was realistic and they'll laugh right in your face. I'm not the one making a big deal out of this. You are. I'm just stating my opinion. The idea of ninjas training Bruce Wayne is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. What's your problem with that? Why don't you get that? Also, I'm watching House of the Dead for the first time, so I'm in a bad mood.

[bassman]

I just don't see how you think it detracts from the film. If ninjas are only "spies".....why then are you learning their fighting style? I didn't realize spies had to fight....that kind of defies the purpose of the action of "spying". Oh well, it doesn't matter anyway. Fighting is for p*ssies.

[DjfunkmasterG]

They dress like ninjas. They wear the fictional, legendry ninja equipment. They use ninjutsu. Even an idiot could figure out what they are. Go ask anyone, anyone at all who trains martial arts (better yet, Ninjutsu) if they thought the depiction of ninjas in Batman Begins was realistic and they'll laugh right in your face. I'm not the one making a big deal out of this. You are. I'm just stating my opinion. The idea of ninjas training Bruce Wayne is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. What's your problem with that? Why don't you get that? Also, I'm watching House of the Dead for the first time, so I'm in a bad mood. Ya know NED, you are becoming quite the asshole when someone disagrees with your opinion. The reason you get no respect from me is because you have no respect for anyone else.

[EvilNed]

I just don't see how you think it detracts from the film. If ninjas are only "spies".....why then are you learning their fighting style? I didn't realize spies had to fight....that kind of defies the purpose of the action of "spying". Oh well, it doesn't matter anyway. Fighting is for p*ssies. Well, Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is basicly 9 different fighting schools, including the ones from the original ninjutsu. It's the most complete study of ninjutsu you can find, but it also includes some chinese fighting schools. So it's not pure ninja. The original ninja had 17 different schools, but few of them were meant for spying. Their fighting styles have alot incommon with say, Jiu-Jutsu etc. etc. I don't train there anymore, mostly because I find japanese martial arts to be a big waste of time. More often than not, they will teach you something they think will work, but in actuallity you're not taught anything of value at all. It's better to train more practical styles, like kickboxing, kungfu or indonesian stuff (but be wary of some korean styles as well). I've already explained why I think Ninjas in Batman is ridiculous. It's like having ninjas in Kingdom of Heaven, or ninjas in Da Vinci Code. Very out of place, especially for a film that tries to take itself seriously. And DJ: Look who's talking.

[bassman]

Well, Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is basicly 9 different fighting schools, including the ones from the original ninjutsu. It's the most complete study of ninjutsu you can find, but it also includes some chinese fighting schools. So it's not pure ninja. The original ninja had 17 different schools, but few of them were meant for spying. Their fighting styles have alot incommon with say, Jiu-Jutsu etc. etc. I don't train there anymore, mostly because I find japanese martial arts to be a big waste of time. More often than not, they will teach you something they think will work, but in actuallity you're not taught anything of value at all. It's better to train more practical styles, like kickboxing, kungfu or indonesian stuff (but be wary of some korean styles as well). I've already explained why I think Ninjas in Batman is ridiculous. It's like having ninjas in Kingdom of Heaven, or ninjas in Da Vinci Code. Very out of place, especially for a film that tries to take itself seriously. And DJ: Look who's talking. Whatever man, you must be a real "one-with-earth" ninja.....using your training on a computer and all. Hiiiii Yah! right? I bet you like the "Power Rangers" because that's more realistic ...

[EvilNed]

Whatever man, you must be a real "one-with-earth" ninja.....using your training on a computer and all. Hiiiii Yah! right? I bet you like the "Power Rangers" because that's more realistic ... Using my training on a computer? Whaaat...? Altough I agree with the "whatever" part.

[ProfessorChaos]

so i posted on another thread about christian bale in the machinist, and was looking up stuff about the next batman film, then stumbled upon this thread....and wow, you guys sure do like to piss and moan about irrelevant details. back to the real deal: batman begins is WAY better. michael keaton was not a good batman/bruce wayne, he just didn't seem to get into the part that much. his portrayal seemed too rubbery and rigid, much like the dildo that he comes off as. i was glad to see him go, but then we got kilmer (too gay) and clooney (too clooney). no one has really got the part down, at least until bale. christian bale really taps into the whole "dark knight" role way better, as he is a superior actor to keaton, kilmer, and clooney. i was a bit put off by the voice, (because all i thought of when hearing it was "man, it sounds like he's about to sh!t in his batsuit....must have forgot to drop a deuce before he suited up!") but then i read what bale's explanation was. he was trying to convey that batman is bruce's super-dark and rage filled alter ego, so that's why he speaks as if he's about to beat, torture and kill everyone in sight. the explanation of his origin, training, and equipment was well handled, too (even if it did include guys who may or may not be ninjas, i don't even want to start that discussion up again!). i enjoyed cillian murphy as scarecrow and liam (qui-gon jin dude, forgot his last name) as what's-his-name(bad memory tonight). and here's where i think my post will draw serious criticism, but fu(k it, i'm gonna say it anyways: i'm really looking forward to the sequel, because i think that heath ledger will be a better joker than jack nicholson was. i had my doubts at first, but after recently seeing this picture ] and this one, which is kinda fake looking, but still cool http://www.evilology.net/uploaded/joker2ge1nx.jpg i can't help but be a little excited. even though he played a gay cowboy in that one movie, he's still a respectable actor who i think will really delve into the psychosis of the joker. he may not be as dedicated as bale is in his acting roles, but he was willing to kiss a freakin dude for brokeback mountain, so he obviously takes his work seriously. that's not to say he's a better actor than jack, but i think he may outshine him in this particular role. i wonder if the origin will be the same (not a big dc comics fan, so don't know real backstory for joker), but i imagine it'll be done much better this time around. after hearing the small chunk of dialog in the teaser trailer, i think that this incarnation of the joker will be much more twisted and evil, unlike nicholson's which was too campy and goofy...which not really nicholson's fault as much as tim burton's. batman begins was better, the best batman film yet, and the dark knight will kick the bat-sh!t out of any other summer blockbusters in 2008, not just in ticket sales, but also in plot, viewer satisfaction, reviews, etc. let's just hope they never bring the gay wonder or bat-bitch into this film series. okay, that's enough typing. sorry to drag this one out of the woods. now you guys can crucify me for my opinion on the joker.

[AcesandEights]

I think you're right on with regards to most of your points there, Professor C. I'll still crucify you, if you like...ya dirty bastard

[Terran]

your ok, with the implausable microwave weaponry I didnt understand why it didnt make people die....if it vaporizes water....what would happen to all the cells in a human body that its almost all water.... Nonetheless I loved the movie

[SRP76]

Yes, Begins was a whole lot better than that sorry movie they made with Nicholson. I always hated that version (not that I really enjoy Begins, either, but it's not as bad). I was a DC fan when the first flick was announced, so my hopes were too high. All the retconning had just happened, so, when I thought "Batman", I thought "Year One". Not Beetlejuice vs. :"Heeeeeeeeeere's Joker!". To this day, I can't figure out why they don't just do a film adaptation of Year One. So simple. But, "no, we have to come up with other things, just for the hell of it. It would be too easy to just go with what works".