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Thread: Where's the army?

  1. #16
    Dying Wooley's Avatar
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    I think the reasons were attrition, logistics, and morale, communications, inability to adapt quickly. As mentioned already in this threat, and in the movies, books, video games, etc, the fact that the zombies did not need to rest, resupply, unwind, etc made them pretty formidable enemies.

    Like the Building 107 bloodbath, the RPD blockade in RE3, etc, sooner or later, you'd have run out of soldiers, policemen, civilian volunteers to fight back, even more so when you take into account desertions like Roger and Peter. Attrition would have been really bad in the beginning due to the problems of dealing with the problem correctly, and the losses suffered early would have degraded combat effectiveness later on, when the problem, and how to deal with it were known.

    Plus, the guys who did stay at their posts wouldn't have been effective once their ammo ran out, or the fuel for the vehicles ran out, or their food or water, etc.

    An Army squad has say, 8 men, with two M249 SAWs, 1,000 rounds each, basic ammo load, and the rest of the men with M4 carbines, or M16 rifles, 7 magazines, 210 rounds each, basic load. How long would they have held out against the horde in the parking lot in the Dawn remake?

    Policemen, depending on their department issued weapons, have 3 magazines for their pistol, and a shotgun, assuming a Remington 870 like Ken's in the Dawn remake, 4 in the tube, and a 6 round butt cuff. If they've got a low cap .45, like a 1911, they may have as few as 24 rounds of ammo, assuming 8 round mags, on up to 71 rounds for a Glock 17 with it's 17 shot mags. How long would half a dozen so armed policemen held the line at the RPD roadblock in RE3?

    Morale has been mentioned. The military has field manuals on how to leaders should help their subordinates cope with the stress and horrors of combat, as well as systems to deal with combat stress. Police, fire fighters, and others have mental health professionals to help them deal with the horrible things they see daily. But horrible things would have been a daily thing in a deadworld and the ability of a human mind to process such things would quickly have been overwhelmed. Wooley and that cop who shot himself in the apartment building after dealing with the zombies in it are two exambles. Eating a bullet would prbably become pretty attractive alternative to being eaten alive and reviving to go eat someone else.

    Communications. Fort Pastor gone, no help coming. Would Fort Pastor have fallen if they knew the bitten people were infected, and that they should be quarantined, and upon death, shot in the head? Would Andy have been bitten if he knew the consequences of a bite?

    Inability to adapt quickly. We see this in the orignal Dawn and the second RE movie. Peter and Roger use their usual method of entering a room in the upstairs apartment of opening the door, and rapidly getting out of the line of fire by moving off to either side. It's a valid tactic-for when your opponent has a gun and will fire back. If your opponent is a dead man with a taint on his teeth worse than rabies and AIDS and ebola, then opening the door and shining in a flashlight to see what's in the room first makes more sense.

    We see how many zombies handcuffed to benches in the police station in the RE sequal? The inability to rapidly change gears and thought processes doomed humanity, especially in our inability to see what was right in front of out eyes-these people were frikin' dead and somehow, were on their feet and trying to eat us, and the inability of people to do what had to be done, shoot their dead loved ones in the head, doomed us.

    EDIT-one final major point. You can guard a lot of areas poorly, or a few really well. Judging from the news reports in the films, they tried the first, and with my points illistrated above, how long before the hordes took down the rescue stations one at a time, from within, like Ft. Pastor, or from without, like the house in Night? My guess, they collpased once the ammo ran out in most cases. And the dead from each fallen shelter added to the hordes that attacked the next one, and so on.
    Last edited by Wooley; 12-Aug-2006 at 11:06 AM.

  2. #17
    Just been bitten Brubaker's Avatar
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    Just reading some of my old posts.

    Anyone have new insight to offer on this topic?

  3. #18
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    the army? they were fighting in korea, right?

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by blind2d View Post
    the army? they were fighting in korea, right?
    In 1978? You sure aren't a student of history! A cease fire ended the Korean War in 1953.
    Last edited by jim102016; 10-Mar-2008 at 05:10 AM.

  5. #20
    Chasing Prey MissJacksonCA's Avatar
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    Well in todays times our army would be in Iraq... but I think back in dawns age the men of the army prolly decided fuggit and went home to be with families? Its not like anyone would imagine living to see the day when the dead walk so its understandable at that point they might just cut and run for their lives. Especially if all they saw were their bretheren falling and getting up and turning into zombies... what didn't make sense was seeing more zombie soldiers to emphasize the idea that the army wasn't winning the war. Instead Dawn kinda seemed like the Army was able to TCOB imho
    You smell that? That's the smell of spring, and I love it. You know what I love to do in spring? I love to come out into the woods, to walk amongst the budding trees, to smell and taste the hint of renewal that hovers in the air like a heady perfume, and to listen to the song of the birds who have returned from their long sojourn south. And bury the people I killed during the winter...

    http://media.movies.ign.com/media/84...d_1882969.html

  6. #21
    Being Attacked LoneCrusader's Avatar
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    but it seemed like they were doing so well in dawn. the military and rednecks, it showed them killing zombies, it didn't show any of them dying. and there were so many [military and rednecks].

    and obviously there woulda been more sophisticated outposts and such nationwide. seems ridiculous that they'd all fall.

  7. #22
    Chasing Prey MoonSylver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneCrusader View Post
    but it seemed like they were doing so well in dawn. the military and rednecks, it showed them killing zombies, it didn't show any of them dying. and there were so many [military and rednecks].

    and obviously there woulda been more sophisticated outposts and such nationwide. seems ridiculous that they'd all fall.

    Isolated pocket. Plus still early on. The ones out in the country WOULD do better as well. But look at where we're at by the END of the film. The airwaves have gone silent. Even the Emergency Broadcast Network is off the are, which means some major shit is going down somewhere. And then we see the next step in Day....

  8. #23
    Being Attacked LoneCrusader's Avatar
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    Yeah. Maybe I have too much faith in guns. And the military. But it just seems like they'd be able to handle them easy.

    [It's weird, looking at my post in this thread back from '06. Makes me feel like one of the seniors here.]
    Last edited by LoneCrusader; 31-Jan-2009 at 11:34 PM.

  9. #24
    Dying Wooley's Avatar
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    Holy Thread Necromancy Batman!

    Now that I think about it, I bet a lot of the zombies were never bitten. They died of dehydration or cholera when the water system failed, or their insulin or anti-rejection meds ran out, or got shot by some retard like Khardis.

  10. #25
    Chasing Prey MoonSylver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wooley View Post
    Holy Thread Necromancy Batman!

    Now that I think about it, I bet a lot of the zombies were never bitten. They died of dehydration or cholera when the water system failed, or their insulin or anti-rejection meds ran out, or got shot by some retard like Khardis.
    Yep. I've long contended that it would spread WAY quickly not because of zombies biting people, but people dying of natural causes & of the chaos that would ensue.

    I once took a death statistic of how my people die per day in the world & extrapolated out from there based on this premise (I'm not a math guy, just was rough guessing it.) & the rate at which their numbers grew was STAGGERING.

    If there are any REAL math guys out there, please feel free to take a whack at it!

  11. #26
    Walking Dead SRP76's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonSylver View Post
    I once took a death statistic of how my people die per day in the world & extrapolated out from there based on this premise (I'm not a math guy, just was rough guessing it.) & the rate at which their numbers grew was STAGGERING.

    If there are any REAL math guys out there, please feel free to take a whack at it!
    I applied the zombie factor to Gainesville, Florida one time, using length of time to die, reanimation timeframe, shambling speed, and natural human reactions as factors. I had the first bodies getting up at midnight, and the city was completely overwhelmed by 8AM.

    The military is a non-factor. In a zombie scenario, you need total lockdown of every room of every building on every street of every town. Not enough bodies. The military doesn't even have that kind of control of Baghdad. How the hell are they going to be able to do it to a thousand Baghdads? They can't. You'd need a billion troops.

  12. #27
    Rising Trin's Avatar
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    The army is an organization intended to be used against foreign threats. To deploy the army against the US citizenry is considered abhorrent. A zombie uprising is a civil threat. Meaning local law enforcement and National Guard would be the first responders. The army might not be mobilized for days and days, after which we all know it would be pointless.

    There are a lot of assumptions that would prohibit early defeat of a zombie crisis.

    For example, you don't assume that a zombie is a threat right away. If someone is shambling toward you all bloody you assume they are alive and injured and you try to help them. The entire first round of responders is sure to get bitten not realizing the threat.

    You also don't assume that a bite wound is an immediate threat. You treat it and move on. You assume the person is going to be fine

    You also don't assume that a person who just died is a threat.

    One major point which Dawn touched on - the law enforcement is going to be too consumed dealing with the living to focus on the zombies. Looters, vandals, gangs, etc. Even survivors who have figured out what's going on - for example, if you drive your police cruiser into a neighborhood and you see one person shooting into a crowd of people, who do you assume is the threat? The guy with the gun of course. You might very well shoot him. And you don't shoot him in the head. You shoot center mass. You've just killed someone who was helping and created a new opponent at the same time. That's a win-win for the zombies!!

  13. #28
    Chasing Prey MoonSylver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trin View Post
    The army is an organization intended to be used against foreign threats. To deploy the army against the US citizenry is considered abhorrent. A zombie uprising is a civil threat. Meaning local law enforcement and National Guard would be the first responders. The army might not be mobilized for days and days, after which we all know it would be pointless.

    There are a lot of assumptions that would prohibit early defeat of a zombie crisis.

    For example, you don't assume that a zombie is a threat right away. If someone is shambling toward you all bloody you assume they are alive and injured and you try to help them. The entire first round of responders is sure to get bitten not realizing the threat.

    You also don't assume that a bite wound is an immediate threat. You treat it and move on. You assume the person is going to be fine

    You also don't assume that a person who just died is a threat.

    One major point which Dawn touched on - the law enforcement is going to be too consumed dealing with the living to focus on the zombies. Looters, vandals, gangs, etc. Even survivors who have figured out what's going on - for example, if you drive your police cruiser into a neighborhood and you see one person shooting into a crowd of people, who do you assume is the threat? The guy with the gun of course. You might very well shoot him. And you don't shoot him in the head. You shoot center mass. You've just killed someone who was helping and created a new opponent at the same time. That's a win-win for the zombies!!
    All excellent points, every single one.

  14. #29
    Walking Dead SRP76's Avatar
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    Yet another problem with trying to wipe zombies out is the fact that they aren't an army; they will spread ridiculously fast.

    Say you've got a clump of 5 zombies. As soon as they hit the street, they're pretty much surrounded by living people (food). They aren't all going to move on the same prey; they're going to split off in 5 different directions, each pursuing the first thing to catch its eye.

    Same will happen to generation after generation of newly-made zombies. Get up, then scatter throughout the living. They aren't going to offer a nice, one-assault-radius target.

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