eating the livestock

[sandrock74]

Zombies eat people. Its not a point to argue about. It was specifically stated (in Dawn) that ONLY humans and "higher order primates" were affected by whatever was happening. It all seems cut and dry to me.

[Philly_SWAT]

OH OH! AND!! ...at the start of Land of the Dead: Riley (on radio): Find anything? Mouse (leaving an abandoned store): I wouldn't touch the fish... It would appear from this line and from the condition of the shops that the zombies have not been tempted to eat the meat in the stores. That has no bearing on my point. Meat in the stores would not mimic "warm" flesh. Also the gator that is walking out the bank in Day is left alone, it is not a zombie gator it is just a gator and they do not bother it. If they wanted to eat it they could. Now you might argue it is cold blooded but it's temperature fluctuates based on environment. I dare say it looked like a warm day to me. I understand your point here. However, I dont think it is valid, at least not to the "zombie wouldnt eat livestock" question. As you yourself stated, the gator is cold blooded, so even on a hot day, it wouldnt mimic warm mammal flesh. I really cannot see any way that the zombies would go after livestock. If the zombies were okay eating livestock then people would've figured that out quickly enough. It would not have gone unnoticed. The entire strategy would've changed. You just toss a pile of meat in the road and when all the zombies converge on it you blow them away. A "pile of meat in the road" would not be adequate. You would need a live animal, or animals. So you are talking about moving livestock into an open, non fenced in area (so the zeds could get to it) and some means of keeping the animals from running off. All of this while ignoring your plans for shelter, aquiring supplies, etc. Getting zombies to converge to "blow them away" is not a difficult task to being with. As we see, zombies will converge all the time. If your goal was to get a zombie convergence to kill them, there would be much easier ways than herding/controlling livestock. Just go stand out in the field, the zeds will come to you. The biker gang, for example, had been surviving on the road for months. Surely they would've seen about every zombie behavior out there. If the zombies could be distracted with a cow then the obvious way to invade the mall is to drop a couple cows off in the parking lot and when the zombies go after them you walk right up to the mall and go in. Two points. One - I think we could all agree that based on the idiotic behavior of the bikers, they have been surviving by sheer luck, not brainpower. Two - how do you suggest they transport these cows...in the cycle sidecar? So I'm just not buying the whole livestock thing. The mere fact that we never see it happen isn't enough. If it were going on then the landscape of the entire movie would've been different. I am sure there are many things that we dont see in the movies. That doesnt mean they arent happening. We never see any character take a shit, but I am sure that they are. I mean, how stupid would it be if GAR puts a group of people in his next movie who use cattle to lure the zombies away from the people? It would diminish the credibility and intellect of all the previous movies if the solution to the problem were that simple. It would in fact be stupid, mainly because it would not make any sense. If it were a fact that zeds would indeed eat cows, it does not follow that it is some kind of good idea for humans to try to herd cattle for the zeds to eat. I dont think that anyone was making the case (at least, I wasnt) that zeds eating livestock would solve the problem of them wanting to eat humans as well. And it would not be any kind of simple exercise to begin with. The planning and implementation of a huge effort such as this would take a large amount of time and manpower. As we see in the movies, there is much disagreement about the cause, possible solutions, what to do, etc. Co-operation fails between small groups of people with similar original goals. How could any large scale operation have any chance of success? Plus, distribution of goods would totally collapse, so its not like there would be food just laying around for people to easily get. Any survivors, scared and starving, would be more likely to kill and animal they saw in order to eat it themselves, not want to give it to the enemy. People were refusing to follow orders to "give up their dead", even when presented with overwhelming evidence that something very weird was going on. You think they would give up their food any easier?

[darth los]

Just a quick interjection. IMO, there is no way of knowing whether that gator was zombified or not. There is only a 2 second clip of it after all and i don't see how anyone can tell either way.

[Trin]

Two - how do you suggest they transport these cows...in the cycle sidecar? Don't be ridiculous. People move cows every day. It doesn't require a college degree. Or even a high school diploma. And to suggest that the bikers were ALL stupid is quite clearly erroneous. They never would've survived by sheer luck if we are to believe that the rest of the free world perished. They had to have some people doing the thinking. I am sure there are many things that we dont see in the movies. That doesnt mean they arent happening. We never see any character take a shit, but I am sure that they are. True. For example, we never see the bikers with livestock trucks, but that doesn't mean they don't have them. For all we know they have a semi-mobile base of operations that moves every once in a while and what we saw was just the scavenger group collecting supplies for a bigger enclave. Given the way things shaped up between Dawn and Land that's a theory that is supported by the movies. However, where your statement fails is that some things are just going to be too important to the events of the world to have gone unnoticed by our little band of survivors and to be left off-camera. For example, we never saw military jets flying overhead during the later months of their stay in the mall. Does that mean it didn't happen? YES!! It does mean that. We can assume that it never happened because it would've been too important to the plot to just omit. Similarly, I believe that if zombies were attracted to animals it would've been discovered almost immediately and that would've made the news. We would've seen it, heard about it, or Romero would've injected it somehow. The fact that we didn't see it or hear about it DOES mean it didn't happen.

[Philly_SWAT]

Don't be ridiculous. People move cows every day. It doesn't require a college degree. Or even a high school diploma. And to suggest that the bikers were ALL stupid is quite clearly erroneous. They never would've survived by sheer luck if we are to believe that the rest of the free world perished. They had to have some people doing the thinking. I dont think we are to believe that the rest of the free world has perished (at least not during the events in Dawn). There would be plenty of people still alive scattered throughout the country. However, it seems pretty clear that the power structure of society has broken down. I wasnt suggesting it took a diploma in order to move cows. Any more than you are suggesting that it requires a diploma in order to be in a biker gang. Even if there were individuals in the gang that it might not be accurate to describe as personally stupid, the actions of the gang as a whole were very stupid. Did it appear to you that they had any type of plan once gaining entry into the mall? They run around grabbing stuff. They hit the zeds with pies and seltzer water. They stick their arms in blood pressure machines with zombies all about. Their actions show no sign at all of having any intelligent design to them. You certainly dont need a high school diploma, or even a GED for that matter, to run around blindly with little regard for your own personal safety, much less the safety of the group as a whole. However, where your statement fails is that some things are just going to be too important to the events of the world to have gone unnoticed by our little band of survivors and to be left off-camera. For example, we never saw military jets flying overhead during the later months of their stay in the mall. Does that mean it didn't happen? YES!! It does mean that. We can assume that it never happened because it would've been too important to the plot to just omit. Certainly you cant be serious here. Dawn of the Dead is much longer than the average movie, coming in at over 2 hours. Even then, how much stuff do you think you can squeeze on-screen in 2 hours? Not much, especially if you are developing characters and following a central story. I'm not sure if you are saying that military jets or zeds eating animals would have been "too important to the plot to just omit", but either way, I say either one of them would be totally unimportant to the plot. Neither had anything to do with what the characters whose stories we are following are doing, therefore it is unimportant to the plot. In "The Bridges of Madison County" we are never shown the President of the United States, nor is any mention of him made. Are we to assume that in the context of that movie that there is no President of the United States? I dont think so. Similarly, I believe that if zombies were attracted to animals it would've been discovered almost immediately and that would've made the news. We would've seen it, heard about it, or Romero would've injected it somehow. The fact that we didn't see it or hear about it DOES mean it didn't happen. Why would Romero inject it if it were totally unimportant to the stories he was telling? I have already stated that it is not some kind of brilliant plan to try to feed the undead animals, or use animals to encourage them to congregate in one area. If they did attack animals, why would that be of particular importance when they are ATTACKING AND EATING human beings? We are only shown very small clips of "experts" talking about the problem on TV. Seeing as there is SOMETHING on TV, it stands to reason that it is zombie talk "all day, all the time" on TV. There would be little interest in watching a Gilligan Island reruns with disaster around the globe. Who knows what else they may have been talking about on TV? Very easily mention of them eating livestock could have been on the TV, but that was unimportant to the plot, and simply watching what was on TV for 2 hours would not leave any room for anything else in the movie.

[Trin]

In my opinion: - The biker's could not have ALL been stupid. The mere fact that they were still alive suggests that. The fact that we saw SOME of them acting stupid is not evidence that they ALL were. Recall that some of the bikers were chastising others for doing stupid things. - Certain events CAN be assumed to NOT be going on. For example, we can safely assume that biker gangs didn't roll by every couple of weeks. If they had been the reaction of the group would've been different. - Likewise with planes flying overhead. It IS important to the movie. A lot of time was given to the idea that the group was isolated and had no evidence of any further humans being alive. We CAN safely assume that it was not happening because the character development and plot relied on it. And, finally, in my opinion if the zombies were attracted and could be fed with livestock or other animals then the whole nature of the situation changes. Changes enough that I feel the ripples would've affected the movies. What we saw doesn't make sense if the zombies could be lured with livestock. Just look at Land. If animals could've been used to distract the zombies don't you think they would've had trained dogs out in the scavenger groups? Or rolled through town in the first pass dropping some kind of animal to lure the zombies out in the open? I think they would have.

[krakenslayer]

In my opinion: - The biker's could not have ALL been stupid. The mere fact that they were still alive suggests that. The fact that we saw SOME of them acting stupid is not evidence that they ALL were. Recall that some of the bikers were chastising others for doing stupid things. - Certain events CAN be assumed to NOT be going on. For example, we can safely assume that biker gangs didn't roll by every couple of weeks. If they had been the reaction of the group would've been different. - Likewise with planes flying overhead. It IS important to the movie. A lot of time was given to the idea that the group was isolated and had no evidence of any further humans being alive. We CAN safely assume that it was not happening because the character development and plot relied on it. And, finally, in my opinion if the zombies were attracted and could be fed with livestock or other animals then the whole nature of the situation changes. Changes enough that I feel the ripples would've affected the movies. What we saw doesn't make sense if the zombies could be lured with livestock. Just look at Land. If animals could've been used to distract the zombies don't you think they would've had trained dogs out in the scavenger groups? Or rolled through town in the first pass dropping some kind of animal to lure the zombies out in the open? I think they would have. I agree wholeheatedly all of the above. I was going to write something very similar but Trin saved me the trouble of doing so. One thing I would add is I think the suggestion that they only eat human meat contributes a lot to what makes them scary. They're not just generally peckish, they don't want to eat just any old meat - it's almost like they want to consume human life It's unnatural and defies explanation; it adds to the mystery and that's what's frightening.

[MoonSylver]

I agree wholeheatedly all of the above. I was going to write something very similar but Trin saved me the trouble of doing so. One thing I would add is I think the suggestion that they only eat human meat contributes a lot to what makes them scary. They're not just generally peckish, they don't want to eat just any old meat - it's almost like they want to consume human life It's unnatural and defies explanation; it adds to the mystery and that's what's frightening. Bingo. Just because we saw them eat a bug or mouse doesn't necessarily mean they're out combing the fields for them. I got the impression that it was more along the lines of "they found it's moving, hmmm...let's pop it in the mouth & see what it tastes like." Now us, yeah, they want to put the bite on our ass in the worst possible way. which makes them scary for all the reasons Kracken mentioned plus one other: it makes you think about THIS: All the scientific explanations we like to throw around are fun & all, but at the end of the day, maybe it IS the wrath of God. Maybe we ARE being punished. Maybe it IS Hell on earth. If so, we're the targets, the ones whom have been judged & found wanting, who have been sentenced to be devoured by out own dead friends, family & loved ones. Not out livestock, not our pets, us. That to me is scary as hell. Not some accident. Not some virus or radiation. That this is the fate that we've been given by our own creator. Gives me the chills thinking about it. (Not that I'm saying this IS the reason. I like it ill defined & unknown. That way it lends itself to the possibility of all of the above.)

[krakenslayer]

Bingo. Just because we saw them eat a bug or mouse doesn't necessarily mean they're out combing the fields for them. I got the impression that it was more along the lines of "they found it's moving, hmmm...let's pop it in the mouth & see what it tastes like." Now us, yeah, they want to put the bite on our ass in the worst possible way. which makes them scary for all the reasons Kracken mentioned plus one other: it makes you think about THIS: All the scientific explanations we like to throw around are fun & all, but at the end of the day, maybe it IS the wrath of God. Maybe we ARE being punished. Maybe it IS Hell on earth. If so, we're the targets, the ones whom have been judged & found wanting, who have been sentenced to be devoured by out own dead friends, family & loved ones. Not out livestock, not our pets, us. That to me is scary as hell. Not some accident. Not some virus or radiation. That this is the fate that we've been given by our own creator. Gives me the chills thinking about it. (Not that I'm saying this IS the reason. I like it ill defined & unknown. That way it lends itself to the possibility of all of the above.) That's exactly what I was trying to convey, MoonSylver, thank you! Without actually ramming it down our throats, it sort of railroads us towards the vague but uncomfortable conclusion that there is some kind of deliberate plan behind what is going on - be it the work of gods, demons, aliens, or something even more esoteric and unknowable. I was tempted to turn in this direction earlier in the thread, but was concerned it might lead us off topic. But seeing as the thread has naturally gone this way... I've been watching these films for years and I'm starting to think that what's going on is mankind literally being eaten by its own appetites. I know this is usually mentioned in reviews and whatnot as a metaphorical layer of the series, but it potentially makes sense on a literal level too. To me it's the only possible "cause" that rings true in the context of the series - the zombie menace is the result of the mass of six billion human minds subconsciously lashing out against a stifling, hateful, self-consuming society; a sort of psychic/metaphysical feedback loop arising from the collective unconscious of the whole of humanity - a humanity that hates what it has become so much that it's begging to be put out of its misery - creating enough spiritual turmoil to literally cause the dead to rise from their graves to consume civilisation. Maybe, in the films, we've hit an emergency self-destruct button hidden away in our genetic code, a sort of fail-safe in case mankind ever reaches a dead end from which there is no way out - a self-induced plague to destroy the sick society and give at least some of us a chance to start again. Of course, it reads like a bunch of metaphysical nonsense when I write it out loud... but lets just say if I ever were to write a zombie novel and my publisher put a gun to my head and told me I absolutely HAD to give a reason for the outbreak, that's be it.

[MoonSylver]

Wow, pretty deep stuff! That's exactly what I was trying to convey, MoonSylver, thank you! Without actually ramming it down our throats, it sort of railroads us towards the vague but uncomfortable conclusion that there is some kind of deliberate plan behind what is going on - be it the work of gods, demons, aliens, or something even more esoteric and unknowable. "vague but uncomfortable"...I like that.

[SRP76]

Hold on. A couple of things about The Great Cow Maneuver: 1. Where are they getting these cows from in the middle of a city? Even if the biker gang wanted to get some, they wouldn't even know where to start looking for some cows, much less transporting them. Without the cows, there's no need to debate the transportation method. 2. Most of us have been on here for months, throwing out strategy after strategy. And we DON'T have ghouls trying to kill us every second of every day. We have time. And yet, we're just now developing The Great Cow Maneuver. So why are we assuming people would have just come up with and implemented this almost instantly?

[Philly_SWAT]

In my opinion: - The biker's could not have ALL been stupid. The mere fact that they were still alive suggests that. The fact that we saw SOME of them acting stupid is not evidence that they ALL were. Recall that some of the bikers were chastising others for doing stupid things. Not sure your point here. I already stated prior to your post that "Even if there were individuals in the gang that it might not be accurate to describe as personally stupid, the actions of the gang as a whole were very stupid." You seem to be rewording what I said and saying the same thing back to me, except you do not comment on whether or not you agree that the actions of the gang as a whole were stupid. - Certain events CAN be assumed to NOT be going on. For example, we can safely assume that biker gangs didn't roll by every couple of weeks. If they had been the reaction of the group would've been different. Yes, certain events can be assumed to NOT be going on. It does not logically follow that any event not shown is by definition not going on. And, finally, in my opinion if the zombies were attracted and could be fed with livestock or other animals then the whole nature of the situation changes. Changes enough that I feel the ripples would've affected the movies. What we saw doesn't make sense if the zombies could be lured with livestock. Just look at Land. If animals could've been used to distract the zombies don't you think they would've had trained dogs out in the scavenger groups? Or rolled through town in the first pass dropping some kind of animal to lure the zombies out in the open? I think they would have. Perhaps I am totally not understanding your point here? I re-read thru the thread, and it still appears to me that you were arguing that livestock being used to lure zombies and/or keep them from eating us was a good idea, a concept that I was disagreeing with. That is why I said the bikers could not just bring cows to the mall, to which you replied you dont have to have a diploma to move cows. Now you are saying it doesnt make sense. What exactly are you saying? Are you saying that livestock should or shouldnt have been used as some type of plan to stop the zeds? There is a difference in between saying that zeds would eat warm flesh of non humans and saying that livestock could be used as a tool in the war against the zeds. Hold on. A couple of things about The Great Cow Maneuver: 1. Where are they getting these cows from in the middle of a city? Even if the biker gang wanted to get some, they wouldn't even know where to start looking for some cows, much less transporting them. Without the cows, there's no need to debate the transportation method. 2. Most of us have been on here for months, throwing out strategy after strategy. And we DON'T have ghouls trying to kill us every second of every day. We have time. And yet, we're just now developing The Great Cow Maneuver. So why are we assuming people would have just come up with and implemented this almost instantly? Exactly. Your first point is the one I have been trying to make. Your second is another good support for the first point.

[Rancid Carcass]

Hello, I'm new here - first post infact! Just thought I jump in and point something out that seems to have been overlooked during this rather spirited debate. The answer to the livestock issue lies in one of the articles on the front page of the Southern Globe newspaper that blows across the pavement at the begining of DAY. Not sure how many people have ever read it but here is the article: THE DEAD WALK! Biologists in Washington DC have released a report stating that the bodies of the recently-dead are returning to life, driven by an unknown force that enables the brain to continue to function. Doctors at the Center For Disease Control in Atlanta reject that theory, calling it "preposterous beyond belief". They feel the only reasonable explanation is a germ, a bacteria or virus, that has a mind-altering effect on its victims. Though how such a germ could have been delivered so quickly and over such a vast area remains a mystery. Researchers there are now working on a vaccine for this ghoulish plague. It’s being called Judgement Day by religious leaders who are asking for prayer, forgiveness, and understanding. These re-activated bodies are weak and uncoordinated, but are capable of inflicting damage on people and on property. They are to be considered extremely dangerous, especially when encountered in large numbers. These bodies can be disposed of in only one known manner. That is by incapacitating the brain. These re-activated bodies will attack warm-blooded animals of all species, including human beings, without provocation, and will devour the flesh of any prey. Dr. Matthew Logan of the neurology department at the US Army Medical Museum of Washington DC at a conference spoke about the mysterious condition. "Our research is just beginning. Earlier yesterday morning, in the cold room at the university, we had a cadaver, a cadaver from which all four limbs had been amputated. In a short time after being removed from the cold room, it opened its eyes. It was dead, but it opened its eyes and began to move. Problem now is to obtain more of such cadavers for examination and experimentation. We have to ask the military personnel and the civilian patrols that are out in the field to stop burning all of these things. We need them to be brought to us still alive so we can study them." When asked if he believed the crisis is a result of the Venus probe, he shook his head uncertain, saying "I’m not an aerospace expert. All we know right now is that there’s likely some pathological reason. If there is an unknown, extraterrestrial microbe, we would have to isolate it in a laboratory, and still go to Venus and see if it exists there. The only thing to do is to hope that it is a mutant form of virus that can not reproduce and that will die off soon." Hope this helps!

[fartpants]

These re-activated bodies will attack warm-blooded animals of all species, including human beings, without provocation, and will devour the flesh of any prey. this kind of says it all really

[krakenslayer]

These re-activated bodies will attack warm-blooded animals of all species, including human beings, without provocation, and will devour the flesh of any prey. this kind of says it all really I'm not sure it does, in Dawn of the Dead we have a scientist specifically say they only attack humans, and in Night of the Living Dead there are all kinds of confused, conflicting reports.