Why we fight; also a reason for the usage of high-yield nuclear weapons

[mista_mo]

I agree...I, liek you feel that killing is wrong. I hope I didn't give you the immpression that I thought when one of the coaltion soldiers kill someone it's heroic, I don't. I don't find anything heroic about killing someone..now, if he ended up saving someones life because of it, then it can be argued that it is heroic. Having life is a gift..the way I look at it...every human life is a worth the same as everyone elses, no matter who they are, or what they do. We all start out as equals, only when we do something so utterly horrible does the worth go down. Take it as you will, but I think it makes sense...killing isn't heroic, it's killing, thats all it is.

[Mike70]

I agree...I, liek you feel that killing is wrong. I hope I didn't give you the immpression that I thought when one of the coaltion soldiers kill someone it's heroic, I don't. I don't find anything heroic about killing someone..now, if he ended up saving someones life because of it, then it can be argued that it is heroic. Having life is a gift..the way I look at it...every human life is a worth the same as everyone elses, no matter who they are, or what they do. We all start out as equals, only when we do something so utterly horrible does the worth go down. Take it as you will, but I think it makes sense...killing isn't heroic, it's killing, thats all it is. no. no. no. mista mo. you didn't give me the impression that killing is heroic. i was just agreeing with you on the horrible things that happen in warfare and why it needs to be abandoned by humankind. i am also trying to impress upon the totally feeble minds of two particular posters that: a. they have no friggin idea what they are talking about. b. they have a totally one-sided view of this entire situation in iraq c. that just because you are an american doesn't automatically make you a good guy. this is life and death - not a fraking baseball or football game where you root for the home team no matter what. d. if they had any experience in warfare and knew just what it did to people , they would have an entirely different opinion on this matter. sorry if i gave you the impression that i was trying to come down on you. far from it.

[Zombie-A-GoGo]

c. that just because you are an american doesn't automatically make you a good guy. this is life and death - not a fraking baseball or football game where you root for the home team no matter what. Sorry to go off-topic a bit, but the above reminded me of a blog entry someone I know wrote recently...thought I'd share it. http://philosophersplayground.blogsp...-liberals.html

[Arcades057]

Wow, I come out with that post and it seems every one of you supports the actions of the terrorists and excuses that behavior. "We do it to them!" Our brand of "torture" is a little different, military veteran or no. I do believe I know the people to avoid at this site now.

[Adrenochrome]

Wow, I come out with that post and it seems every one of you supports the actions of the terrorists and excuses that behavior. "We do it to them!" Our brand of "torture" is a little different, military veteran or no. I do believe I know the people to avoid at this site now. Does this mean you're leaving?

[zombie04]

Ever since the American Civil War, civilians and innocents have suffered on a massive scale. Infact, civilians and innocents have always suffered in warfare. And remember, the US started this war. The US started it, and now you can't deal with what's happening to US soldiers? Did you think it was going to be a cakewalk? Did you think people would just let you occupy their land without giving you a fight? Please. While I am against the war, that's not what this is about. I'm not against the US either (well, Ok, so I am. There are many reasons why I despise US politics). But this is what you ASKED for. This is what you should EXPECT. This is WAR. Guantanamo Bay, where dozens of people are held in prison, being tortured and interrogated on a daily basis and they don't even get a trial or a lawyer. Maybe that's something you should direct your attention to, if you feel bad for innocent people. It's closer, and it's maybe something you can have an effect on. Again, this is a war. It is a war that the US wanted. The US should be prepared for, and deal with, the consequences. Ok, my opinion on this war is very clear. First of all I think it was necessary and eventually the end result will show why it was necessary. But regarding Guantanamo Bay, I honestly don't give a sh*t what happens to those people. They tried to kill Americans and were caught in the act. If torture (and that word can be defined lots of ways) gets information out of them that is useful then I have no problem "torturing" them. I honestly think we're not doing enough in Iraq and Afghanistan and I think we should not stop until every one of those sons of b*tches is dead. Naturally there will be casualties in a war, but you can't let people dying make you turn away from what's right. So far we've been in Iraq and have had over 2,500 deaths, a good portion of which came from mechanical failures and terrorist using dirty tactics (I'll get back to this). In World War II, we suffered many casualties but that didn't distract us from the final goal. Instead it hardened our resolve and we ultimately won because people new it was worth the risk. Now about the dirty tactics (roadside bombs and so forth), I think this should only be a reason why we need to be harder on these bastards because as long they still have life, they will try to kill us. A good portion of these people swore their lives against us before we entered this war and they have been forced to believe that they are right and we are the Great Satan. Despite the fact that they are turning themselves against their own religion without knowing it, they attack us and usually kill themselves in the process. This war was never suppose to be a cakewalk and the Bush administration made it very clear before we entered Afghanistan. This really is a war on terror, despite what some here say, and as long as terrorists threaten us on a large scale it will never end. My personal belief about the liberals in America is that they've had it so good compared to their parents and grandparents they never needed to know the true meaning of sacrifice and refuse to do so for anything. They have no backbone and are unaware of the long-term consequences of backing down to terrorists. In all honesty I don't want anybody to respond to this because I was just trying to state my opinion. I also don't want anybody to respond to this because I work 10-14 hours a day and don't have time to get on the internet much and don't feel like getting into one of the many over-long debates about politics. But if you feel like you must speak your mind, do so, but I honestly don't like getting in these kinds of debates, they just make me push a certain button in me.

[Arcades057]

Zombie, I doubt now that sense will work with some of them. Clear cut: Our people were chopped to pieces; we made their's wear underwear on their heads. They say that the actions are equal in terms of savagry.\ Oh well.

[Zombie-A-GoGo]

Now here's my question to the "they're just missunderstood" elements who frequent these forums... Hey, aren't you the guy who said this: Deep in my heart I feel that people on my side are misunderstood ...in another thread. So...you don't like it when liberals "misunderstand" you, I believe that was about being racist, but you want to go ahead and assume that all liberals merely want to give violent insurgents therapy. That's rich. T^alk about misunderstanding. Wow, I come out with that post and it seems every one of you supports the actions of the terrorists and excuses that behavior. "We do it to them!" Our brand of "torture" is a little different, military veteran or no. I do believe I know the people to avoid at this site now. Seriously, guy, pull your head out of your ass. Just because we can, and will, continue to point out flaws in this administration, and yes, our military, because they need to be pointed out, doesn't mean that we in any way support what those people did to those two soldiers. I'm sorry that you choose to ignore the fact that we do indeed torture people. And it wasn't just a naked pyramid, or underwear on someone's head. It was rape, it was sodomy, it was dog attacks (yes, not just scaring them, but dog bites), it was forced masturbation (seriously, what the hell were those soldiers thinking?). Did we behead anyone? Not to my knowledge. Does that make it okay for us to act in any way that's completely morally bankrupt? No, it doesn't. As Americans, we're supposed to be better than that. I would think, as a so-called proud American, that you would agree, but it's clear that you're so angry and bent on revenge that you just want to fall into the same morally-base pit that those who practice torture (yes, I'm talking those guys who beheaded those soldiers). It's a sad, sad day when terrorists can turn Americans into savages. I wish you all the luck in life, because you're going to need it.

[Adrenochrome]

Hey, aren't you the guy who said this: ...in another thread. So...you don't like it when liberals "misunderstand" you, I believe that was about being racist, but you want to go ahead and assume that all liberals merely want to give violent insurgents therapy. That's rich. T^alk about misunderstanding. Seriously, guy, pull your head out of your ass. Just because we can, and will, continue to point out flaws in this administration, and yes, our military, because they need to be pointed out, doesn't mean that we in any way support what those people did to those two soldiers. I'm sorry that you choose to ignore the fact that we do indeed torture people. And it wasn't just a naked pyramid, or underwear on someone's head. It was rape, it was sodomy, it was dog attacks (yes, not just scaring them, but dog bites), it was forced masturbation (seriously, what the hell were those soldiers thinking?). Did we behead anyone? Not to my knowledge. Does that make it okay for us to act in any way that's completely morally bankrupt? No, it doesn't. As Americans, we're supposed to be better than that. I would think, as a so-called proud American, that you would agree, but it's clear that you're so angry and bent on revenge that you just want to fall into the same morally-base pit that those who practice torture (yes, I'm talking those guys who beheaded those soldiers). It's a sad, sad day when terrorists can turn Americans into savages. I wish you all the luck in life, because you're going to need it. Don't let this kid get to you.......he's just trying to stir sh*t up.

[Mike70]

please don't think i am defending the insurgents. i am not. i have a complete and total repugnance for violence that is born of the fact that i have seen so much of it and know exactly what it does to people. killing people is wrong - period. it is wrong when terrorist/insurgents do it and it is wrong when the us govt. sponsors it as well. again, i have been very clear in my posts. i am neither supporting nor defending either side. the actions of both sides have gone out of bounds and only further illumninate the complete insanity of war. torturing and killing people is WRONG no matter who does it. if this is something you have a problem understanding, i would suggest that there is some deep, underlying fault in your make up as a person. the cold blooded murder of civilians (something we seem to be hearing about almost daily in iraq) is competely unacceptable and DOES NOT consistitute an unavoidable consequence of war. civilians getting caught in a cross-fire, bombs going awry, or civilians stepping on landmines are some of the unfortunate things that happen in war. torturing prisoners and taking civilians out of their homes, murdering them , then attempting to cover it up are CRIMES by any definition and should be treated as crimes. arcades, you clearly lack the intellectual ability and maturity to talk about this on a rational level. your posts are filled with vindictive rhetoric and outright name calling. i am not some school boy on the recess yard - neither are evilned, djfunk, zombie-a-gogo or adreno - who are going to resort to the sorts of 5 year old level antics that you and tju1973 seem to revel in. if neither of you can handle rational, logical arguement without acting like children; i have suggestion - do the adults on this board a favor and go away - go back to your nursery and leave the grown ups alone. Wow, I come out with that post and it seems every one of you supports the actions of the terrorists and excuses that behavior. "We do it to them!" Our brand of "torture" is a little different, military veteran or no. I do believe I know the people to avoid at this site now. how is one brand of torture any different than another? torture is torture - period. it morally degrades those who employ it - period. this is one of the most ignorant things i've ever heard. it is precisely because i am a military vet (10th mountain div 1991-1994) that i am so opposed to war & violence. i have seen the way it affects people and the way that it has affected me. it was a long road for me to come to this. i used to talk s*ite about pacifism. now i realize that i had no idea. i am a conditional pacifist. show me a situation like WWII, where the consequences of not going to war are worse than the war itself and i will support that cause wholeheartedly. iraq is not anything any young person should be asked to sacrifice their life for. iraq was a totally foolish move by a completely foolish and ignorant administration. the war in iraq had nothing to do with war on terror until the US invaded it - that is what made iraq this hotbed of terror activity. a firm grasp of the english language must not be your strong suit. i have heard no one on this board defend the actions of terrorists - only point out that horrible actions have been taken by both sides and that it is hypocritical to damn the actions of one side without pointing out wrong doing on the other. please do avoid us. nothing would make us happier. most of us have been coming here for almost 5 years - we are not going away.

[Zombie-A-GoGo]

Don't let this kid get to you.......he's just trying to stir sh*t up. Oh, I know. It's frustrating that people can be so blind, and, well, not so very bright. Oh well. Whatchagonnado? This was another good one: Our people were chopped to pieces; we made their's wear underwear on their heads. It's all Us v. Them. Um...alot of people held in these various prisons that we have are not insurgents, are not neccessarily the enemy. Some of them just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. It makes no difference to people like Arcade. They're swarthy, they don't speak English, they must be the enemy, so we can do whatever we like to them. It must be nice to live in a world that's so black and white, where everything is so darn simple. I guess it makes sense though...simple is as simple thinks.

[thxleo]

Wanna know the difference between those animals over there and the U.S.? Take a look at these photos...http://www.ogrish.com/archives/nick_...n_21_2005.html Some of the members on this board, and you know who you are, are so far gone there is no hope for you. You worship at the altar of creeps like Ward Churchill, Cindy Sheehan, Michael Moore, and the Dixie Chicks. Yet you tear apart those who believe in their country and their military. Thank God there was no internet or 24 hour liberal media in the days of WWII. We would all be speaking German. Those animals have killed 2500 U.S. soldiers since the start of the war. It took them 3 years to get to that number. It took them 24 hours back in September of 2001 to kill 3000 citizens. We have taken the war to their backyard, instead of ours. Who does not understand that? This is a war. For all of those bleeding hearts out there, here is a question for you. What would you do to fight terrorism? What magic plan do you have that the U.S. just can't seem to figure out? You all seem to have incredibly arrogant and smart ass answers for those you disagree with on this message board, what would you do to solve this problem then? Other than just sit back and do nothing that is. Maybe you should move to Canada or France? You might feel more at home.

[bassman]

Wanna know the difference between those animals over there and the U.S.? Take a look at these photos...http://www.ogrish.com/archives/nick_...n_21_2005.html Some of the members on this board, and you know who you are, are so far gone there is no hope for you. You worship at the altar of creeps like Ward Churchill, Cindy Sheehan, Michael Moore, and the Dixie Chicks. Yet you tear apart those who believe in their country and their military. Thank God there was no internet or 24 hour liberal media in the days of WWII. We would all be speaking German. Those animals have killed 2500 U.S. soldiers since the start of the war. It took them 3 years to get to that number. It took them 24 hours back in September of 2001 to kill 3000 citizens. We have taken the war to their backyard, instead of ours. Who does not understand that? This is a war. For all of those bleeding hearts out there, here is a question for you. What would you do to fight terrorism? What magic plan do you have that the U.S. just can't seem to figure out? You all seem to have incredibly arrogant and smart ass answers for those you disagree with on this message board, what would you do to solve this problem then? Other than just sit back and do nothing that is. Maybe you should move to Canada or France? You might feel more at home. Couldn't agree more, man. And you topped it all off with a funny! Nice...

[EvilNed]

Some of the members on this board, and you know who you are, are so far gone there is no hope for you. You worship at the altar of creeps like Ward Churchill, Cindy Sheehan, Michael Moore, and the Dixie Chicks. Yet you tear apart those who believe in their country and their military. Thank God there was no internet or 24 hour liberal media in the days of WWII. We would all be speaking German. Those animals have killed 2500 U.S. soldiers since the start of the war. It took them 3 years to get to that number. It took them 24 hours back in September of 2001 to kill 3000 citizens. We have taken the war to their backyard, instead of ours. Who does not understand that? This is a war. For all of those bleeding hearts out there, here is a question for you. What would you do to fight terrorism? What magic plan do you have that the U.S. just can't seem to figure out? You all seem to have incredibly arrogant and smart ass answers for those you disagree with on this message board, what would you do to solve this problem then? Other than just sit back and do nothing that is. Maybe you should move to Canada or France? You might feel more at home. The difference isn't that we're not upset. The difference is that some nutballs on this board seem to think that nothing bad should ever happen to the US. Yes, this is a war. Atrocities happen in war! Horrible, horrible things happen in war! When you went into this war, how could you not expect this to happen? Someone, I think it was Scipio, said earlier that if some foreign nation invaded the US and occupied it, then you wouldn't really follow the Geneva conventions either. That is true, and you need to realize that. These people are ****ed off at the mess the US has caused. Civilians over there are paying for it with their lives everyday. Where is your sympathy for them? Where is your sympathy for the tortured victims of the US? Nobody here is arguing that this is good. It's bad, it's bad news. But for christ sake, this is a war. And atrocities are being committed by BOTH SIDES. So do your homework. The last thing we need is some nutjob who thinks US soldiers crap out gold and that the Iraqi are savage beasts.

[p2501]

Wanna know the difference between those animals over there and the U.S.? Take a look at these photos...http://www.ogrish.com/archives/nick_...n_21_2005.html Some of the members on this board, and you know who you are, are so far gone there is no hope for you. You worship at the altar of creeps like Ward Churchill, Cindy Sheehan, Michael Moore, and the Dixie Chicks. Yet you tear apart those who believe in their country and their military. Thank God there was no internet or 24 hour liberal media in the days of WWII. We would all be speaking German. Those animals have killed 2500 U.S. soldiers since the start of the war. It took them 3 years to get to that number. It took them 24 hours back in September of 2001 to kill 3000 citizens. We have taken the war to their backyard, instead of ours. Who does not understand that? This is a war. For all of those bleeding hearts out there, here is a question for you. What would you do to fight terrorism? What magic plan do you have that the U.S. just can't seem to figure out? You all seem to have incredibly arrogant and smart ass answers for those you disagree with on this message board, what would you do to solve this problem then? Other than just sit back and do nothing that is. Maybe you should move to Canada or France? You might feel more at home. seriously what are you 14 now? We're talking about modern armed conflict, not you and your snivveling REFM buddies playing a round of Rainbow6. nor is this a discussion of "ZOMG THEEE TERREISTS ARRRE RIGHT< AND DEE US-AYE IS SOOOOO BADDDDD." you twit. did you actually read two thirds of the posts on this thread before excrete-ing out that lincoln log of a post? no one is proposing an end to the war, nor is anyone stating the insugents are good people. what we were argueing is that fact atrocity begats further atrocity, and that's about it. while the thoguh may detract from your "US A-OK" jargon, the fact of the matter is the point is both factual, and readily provable. now go back to Advance war fighter and let the adults talk. The last thing we need is some nutjob who thinks US soldiers crap out gold and that the Iraqi are savage beasts. it's funny, he strikes me as exactly the sort of guy that would be commiting war crimes, were he over there. creppy.