Ahh, religion and ignorance at its modern day best!

[Mike70]

the argument that religion is a personal choice only partially holds up. what about the millions upon millions of children that are being brought up by parents who are actively indoctrinating them into a given religion, whether that be islam, christianity, hinduism, or the worship of the holy juju bead on the mountain. do they have a choice? no, i think not.

[Neil]

the argument that religion is a personal choice only partially holds up. what about the millions upon millions of children that are being brought up by parents who are actively indoctrinating them into a given religion, whether that be islam, christianity, hinduism, or the worship of the holy juju bead on the mountain. do they have a choice? no, i think not. Yes, it is indeed a very cultural matter...

[LoSTBoY]

If sexual orientation is something you are genetically born with, i.e the feelings of a man in a womans body and vice versa, how do you explain those greedy Bisexuals?

[Neil]

If sexual orientation is something you are genetically born with, i.e the feelings of a man in a womans body and vice versa, how do you explain those greedy Bisexuals? Same thing... ps: Can you reduce the depth of your sig please...

[LoSTBoY]

the argument that religion is a personal choice only partially holds up. what about the millions upon millions of children that are being brought up by parents who are actively indoctrinating them into a given religion, whether that be islam, christianity, hinduism, or the worship of the holy juju bead on the mountain. do they have a choice? no, i think not. Yeah I know what you mean. Effectively we all honour Christianity by following a Christian calander and Christian public holidays in the UK. Have to go with the flow sometimes even though it's not your thing, luckily we no longer get stoned or drowned being a heathen (in the UK at least). p.s: This better Neil?

[BillyRay]

, luckily we no longer get stoned or drowned being a heathen Don't know about drowned, but most of the heathens I know are stoned pretty regularly..

[JDFP]

the argument that religion is a personal choice only partially holds up. what about the millions upon millions of children that are being brought up by parents who are actively indoctrinating them into a given religion, whether that be islam, christianity, hinduism, or the worship of the holy juju bead on the mountain. do they have a choice? no, i think not. It's a good point, Mike. That's why I say that someone only has a real choice of religion after reaching the age of accountability (once they can make their own decisions to follow their own path in whatever said society they live within). For example, I knew that I was led to become Catholic a LONG time before I actually did it but waited until I was 20 so my grandparents didn't kill me for becoming one of those "people who believe you can pray to Mary and saints and ask priests to forgive your sins instead of God and think works can get you into Heaven and etc. etc." that they continually argue from their cultural misunderstandings about my faith. It's not so much a choice as a baby/child what religion you're born into -- but it is a choice in what path you wish to continue following (or not following for our Atheist brethren) once you have a choice in the matter after reaching accountability (if you have a choice in the matter: unlike say N. Korea). j.p.

[darth los]

Ok, so let's get this straight. You're (not nescesarily you) a straight male predisposed from birth to be attracted to women. That's the impulse. Now what you are saying is that it's ok for everyone to expect you to ignore that impulse and like guys? Beacause that's exactly what you're argument says that gays can do. Ignore their predisposed impulse for liking the same gender and just get with women. Again as disgusting as it is for straight men to get with another man I would think the level of disgust would be the same for a gay man towards a woman. it's far from the case. Just like you're brain is not wired that way, neither is theirs.

[EvilNed]

So you've never seen someone flip flop on the subject? I've seen religious people commit suicide and that's taboo thing to do as a believer. Why don't you take your own advice and do some thinking out of your own box. Short answer? No. What thinking out of my box would you like me to make? You don't really make this clear. Comparing Sexuality to Religion does not go any deeper than the fact that none of them are conscious choices. I almost regret making this statement, but I made it to prove the irony of the situation (and that irony still stands). Let's drop religion for a second. I don't give a shit about it, and infact I look down upon it. I freely admit this, and I also agree that this is not an admireable trait. But the opinions held by many modern day religious people still surprise me and not in a good way. To be honest, anyone who believes that homosexuality is a conscious choice made by all homosexuals knows very little, if anything, about the subject at all. I'd say any such opinion stems from either extreme isolation from the reality of the matter, as well as a mind incapable of thinking for oneself and drawing own conclusions. Perhaps blinded by dogma, perhaps by sheer ignorance. I don't know. I've always viewed understanding as one of the most noble character traits a person can have. Understanding and patience. Religious people often preach this, but not many actually follow it. This subject is a classic example. No person who claims this about homosexuality can claim any understanding on the subject at all. I don't know if you think it's a conscious choice or not. I hope you don't.

[darth los]

To be honest, anyone who believes that homosexuality is a conscious choice made by all homosexuals knows very little, if anything, about the subject at all. I'd say any such opinion stems from either extreme isolation from the reality of the matter, as well as a mind incapable of thinking for oneself and drawing own conclusions. Perhaps blinded by dogma, perhaps by sheer ignorance. I don't know. I've always viewed understanding as one of the most noble character traits a person can have. Understanding and patience. Religious people often preach this, but not many actually follow it. This subject is a classic example. No person who claims this about homosexuality can claim any understanding on the subject at all. ^^^^ This. Well said Ned. Hey that rhymed!

[Mr. Clean]

Short answer? No. No person who claims this about homosexuality can claim any understanding on the subject at all. I don't know if you think it's a conscious choice or not. I hope you don't. I did not form my opinion on facts that I pulled out of my ass. As I said before I made my choice on the matter from information my gay boss talked about. Not from reading a book, Not from what some college professor. Straight from a homosexual. Even though he called his divorce the cause of his transformation as he refered to it, no scientific data exists to prove either side of this arguement so it's all speculation. All of you standing on golden pedestals can just step off and stand with everyone else with opinions. Don't even try to call bullshit to there being zero scientific data, because last time I checked a scientist couldn't examine a 2 year old and say "Yep, he's going grow up to be a homosexual." Anyways, I'm done until the next person says something about there being no choice and I'll say "bologna".

[JDFP]

I did not form my opinion on facts that I pulled out of my ass. As I said before I made my choice on the matter from information my gay boss talked about. Not from reading a book, Not from what some college professor. Straight from a homosexual. Even though he called his divorce the cause of his transformation as he refered to it, no scientific data exists to prove either side of this arguement so it's all speculation. All of you standing on golden pedestals can just step off and stand with everyone else with opinions. Don't even try to call bullshit to there being zero scientific data, because last time I checked a scientist couldn't examine a 2 year old and say "Yep, he's going grow up to be a homosexual." Anyways, I'm done until the next person says something about there being no choice and I'll say "bologna". I can understand what you're saying -- and I agree with there being a choice in acting upon a specific sexual disposition. However, there are genetic markings that can denote chromosomal changes between heterosexual and homosexuals. The hormones/chromosomal mixes are sometimes different. I.E. -- some people that are homosexual (by no means do I believe all) are certainly born with a homosexual disposition. This does not mean that the specific person will become a homosexual or act upon these chromosomal differences. It just means they do sometimes have a specific pre-disposition to being homosexual in some circumstances. My biggest issue with those who say that homosexuality is not a "choice" don't seem to understand is that the act of being homosexual is more than inherent chromosomes. It's also about acting upon this internal nature as well. The individual, disposition or not, still must choose to act in a specific way and live their life by this lifestyle. I'm not saying it's right or wrong -- but it's a personal choice that the specific individual indulges in through action. Anyway, I'm probably going to bow out of this discussion. I certainly mean no offense to any gays/lesbians as I know quite a few of them and they are fine people who just choose to act in a different lifestyle than I do. I'm not passing any type of value judgement against these people for their choice in living their specific lifestyle through their actions save by pointing out that it is their choice to do so -- just as it's my choice to select the specific people I choose to sleep with (or not sleep with). If any offense has been taken by anyone in my stating that I believe it's a choice in choosing to live as a homosexual was taken then I do apologize as it was certainly not intended. j.p.

[blind2d]

^ JD here says what I could not. Here is what I believe about the matter, almost verbatim. Not trying to just follow the herd on this, I truly believe this. But again, I don't know personally, not being homosexual, but yes... we all have a choice. Even if we don't think we do... we really do. Sometimes it takes courage, but we do have a choice... I'm tired and a tad incoherent... sorry about that.

[Mr. Clean]

I can understand what you're saying -- and I agree with there being a choice in acting upon a specific sexual disposition. However, there are genetic markings that can denote chromosomal changes between heterosexual and homosexuals. The hormones/chromosomal mixes are sometimes different. I.E. -- some people that are homosexual (by no means do I believe all) are certainly born with a homosexual disposition. This does not mean that the specific person will become a homosexual or act upon these chromosomal differences. It just means they do sometimes have a specific pre-disposition to being homosexual in some circumstances. My biggest issue with those who say that homosexuality is not a "choice" don't seem to understand is that the act of being homosexual is more than inherent chromosomes. It's also about acting upon this internal nature as well. The individual, disposition or not, still must choose to act in a specific way and live their life by this lifestyle. I'm not saying it's right or wrong -- but it's a personal choice that the specific individual indulges in through action. Anyway, I'm probably going to bow out of this discussion. I certainly mean no offense to any gays/lesbians as I know quite a few of them and they are fine people who just choose to act in a different lifestyle than I do. I'm not passing any type of value judgement against these people for their choice in living their specific lifestyle through their actions save by pointing out that it is their choice to do so -- just as it's my choice to select the specific people I choose to sleep with (or not sleep with). If any offense has been taken by anyone in my stating that I believe it's a choice in choosing to live as a homosexual was taken then I do apologize as it was certainly not intended. j.p. Bipartisan much? Just kidding I agree on not wanting to piss people and considering people's feelings to an extent but wtf is with all the damn mockery in this debate and attempts to belittle people?

[JDFP]

Bipartisan much? Just kidding I agree on not wanting to piss people and considering people's feelings to an extent but wtf is with all the damn mockery in this debate and attempts to belittle people? I've been called many things before, "bipartisan" isn't generally one of them. I just express my personal opinions with the moniker that they are my personal beliefs alone. People are people -- the only people I don't like are people who have no integrity or assholes. I'm a Conservative usually Republican-leaning (NOT on the Capital Punishment issue) American. I make no apologies for it and I can be deeply religious at times and certainly make no apologies for that either. But, I don't see any point in treating anyone less than human or being disrespectful. Opinions get heated around here -- and that's fine. We talk about everything from abortion to capital punishment to these topics. And it's great. We've also gotten much better around here in the last few years I've been visiting about being more respectful to other members here. I don't always agree with Los or others, but I certainly respect them. And I rarely ever agree with Ned -- but I respect him as well even if at times he makes me want to throw my keyboard through my monitor. I don't see the "mockery" you are mentioning -- and if it's there, I try to ignore it. I have better things to do with my time. I do thrive off this stuff though -- it's educational and fun. j.p.