Who was the bigger loss to the group? (Season 2 discussion)

[Zombie Snack]

JMO but it seems like some of Dale's actions get a pass because he believed that his intentions were right, honorable and for the good of all. If I find out you are sabotaging our transportation, you take off with all of our weapons hiding them in the woods, your keeping secrets like the walkers in the barn next to camp, I see someone like that as a threat no matter how honorable his intent, and I would want that person removed from my group before his passiveness gets people killed. Shane was right, it was a new world, the rules are not what they used to be, basic human decency is fine to an extent, and then it will get you killed in the new reality of a walking dead world. It seems Rick had the same type issues adapting as Dale, but Rick it seems has started to accept that there will be no holding hands and singing kumbaya to solve our problems. Shane went crazy, no doubt, but Dale seemed almost as bat shit crazy for not accepting the severity of what was happening, how things had changed, and respecting other's very basic human rights, the right to decide for thereselves.

[dracenstein]

Voted Dale, he was trying to keep the group human, even if he did make mistakes, but we all make mistakes, that's what makes us human. Okay, sabotaging the RV and hiding the guns could be potentially dangerous (especially if that final herd (and I hated the walkers described as that, as herds tend to be prey) found them then), but Shane was losing it big time. He wanted Lori and Carl to be his more than he thought of the safety of the group. He was so full of frustration and anger that it made him reactive rather than think things through, such as when he let the walkers out of the barn. The shooting probably attracted more walkers and maybe even Randall and co, and if he thought it through first, he would have realised that the shooting would be ringing the dinner gong for every walker in earshot. PS: So Steven, Roger, Peter and Fran led the walkers to the farm? Well, they couldn't have known.

[MinionZombie]

IIRC, Dale didn't "sabotage" the RV - the radiator hose genuinely broke, but he fixed it quite quickly, but lied about having it already fixed - so the vehicle wasn't rendered immobile by his actions, so they would have still had it as a getaway vehicle.

[shootemindehead]

Exactly...where did this "sabotage the RV" thing come from? The only thing he did was delay the news that he had actually fix the problem, in order to give the kid a decent shot at being found/returning. I certainly don't see that as anything on the same level as what Shane did.

[Trin]

Yes, the RV "sabotage" is not on par with Shane's attempted rape, attempted murder, and general dickery. Seriously, Dale watched Shane point his gun at Rick's head in the woods. I think Dale had every right to be suspicious of whether Shane would take the group's welfare into consideration when he was choosing how much information to share about things. Regarding Andrea... Dale never took away her basic human rights or removed her ability to make a decision. He just forced her to make a much harder decision than the one she'd intended on. He basically called her bluff. Had he picked her up and dragged her out of the CDC kicking and screaming it would've been different. For those of you who think everyone should be more "Shane-like" in the new world... why aren't you criticizing Andrea for not having the guts to take Dale to death with her? Isn't she ultimately the weak one in this situation? Here's a question for the Shane supporters... would your opinion of Dale be different had he killed Shane in the woods when he had the gun pointed on him?

[Wyldwraith]

Know this is a bit of thread necromancy but meh, I found this a difficult comparison to make when it comes down to Shane Vs. Dale. Shane was tied to a very "anti-Shakespearean" writing style (Ie: "The fault is in my stars (the written depiction of me chosen by said writers) as opposed to within himself, while Dale is given more seeming room to act/react as a person. I think the very fact that the perception was Shane was "on borrowed time since Season 1" illustrates that point. He wasn't so much a character as a walking, talking plot device. One whose outcome even us non-comic-readers understood very early on would turn out as it did. Dale...Dale is sort of a logistical wash IMO. Whatever else he was, the man was often a divisive force within the group however (highly arguable here, I certainly dont see it) noble his motives might be construed. Coming at it from a mere advantage/disadvantage value system to the group, I think both had a relatively equal impact in many ways, so conversely their deaths were relatively equal "losses"...if we were to delve into the realm of Might-Have-Beens then a Shane who an effort was made to write for believably would win at a walk, but he was the destined embodied break-point for Season 2. So by a hair I vote Shane the bigger loss, simply because the bad things Shane did tended to be very individually oriented, while the bad things Dale did had substantial potential to harm the group as a whole. The fact the universe/writing orchestrated things so the group didn't pay the price in those risks being realized is immaterial to the decision-making of the man himself. Just one basic example: That barn was not exactly Fort Knoxx. What if there had been a mass breakout by zombies agitated by a living person passing close to the barn (say the woman who came to feed them semi-regularly) while Dale had the guns in the swamp and Shane was still tracking him down. No Rick, no Shane, no guns....that could have been camp-attack level of ugly. Plus, Dale was more of a hidden danger that it wasnt at all obvious to many (if any) members of the group that had he lived would have grown as a threat. The very fact he was basically eulogized as a saint by Rick makes that point quite clear. Whereas Shane's issues when he took his worst downward dips were readily perceivable. Roaming mad dog versus deadly venomous serpent lurking in the weeds near your feet. As threats go I prefer mine overt...and as I said, had Shane been written realistically I believe it was far more likely he would've openly contested Rick's right to move in and assume command early on rather than sulk and turn would-be assassin... It's a tougher, more multi-layered question than it seems. Excellent debate, just sorry I missed it.

[Ragnarr]

Interesting comparrison to Firefly's crew you made there Wyld with Dale being like a Wash. Just like I enjoyed the blend of different personality types in Firefly, so too those of TWD. As to the greatest loss in season 2 (or even losses since season 1), I'd be forced to conclude... meh. There's character's we like or even identify with and it's always a mind-blower for those of us unfamilar with the comic when someone that we never thought would get munched... becomes so. Truthfully I was glad to see Shane buy it from Rick's blade and quick thinking. Like he said afterwards, "I just wanted it to be over". So did I Rick. Shane was a douche. An efficient zombie killing douche, but a douche none the less. Dale was a shocker as he was sort of the moral anchor for the group and a father figure generally. Gruesome death there no doubt. What's her face's daughter becoming a Walker was a mind-blower for me. One gets used to the prevailing "...and the child gets saved" found in most dramas, so when she came out of that barn I literally was repeating "oh sh*t...oh sh*t" during that scene. I'd like to see the writers give T-Dawg more of a compelling character developement. He always seems to just be standing around sweating, twitching and basically looking nervous. C'mon Season 3!!!

[DjfunkmasterG]

I went with Shane because he was a cop and knows how to handle weapons, and was trained how to do a proper killshot. Not too mention he was in better shape than dale and coul dhave been a bigger contribution to the group. I liked Dale better, but in a zombie apocalypse you need folks who are agile and in good shape to do supply runs and be able to aid in fighting off the UNDEAD.

[MinionZombie]

I went with Shane because he was a cop and knows how to handle weapons, and was trained how to do a proper killshot. Not too mention he was in better shape than dale and coul dhave been a bigger contribution to the group. I liked Dale better, but in a zombie apocalypse you need folks who are agile and in good shape to do supply runs and be able to aid in fighting off the UNDEAD. But you don't need nutters who fuck your wife and want to usurp you by killing you in a field.

[Ragnarr]

But you don't need nutters who fuck your wife and want to usurp you by killing you in a field. MinionZombie is my hero! Yup & yup again. I'd much rather have a thoughtful Dale with his way-too-easy-to-open abdomen than psycho Shane jumping my way-too-easy-to-open (snerk) wife. Brawn rocks so long as the brain functions correctly.

[MinionZombie]

MinionZombie is my hero! Yup & yup again. I'd much rather have a thoughtful Dale with his way-too-easy-to-open abdomen than psycho Shane jumping my way-too-easy-to-open (snerk) wife. Brawn rocks so long as the brain functions correctly. Welcome to my signature, good Sir.

[Trin]

@Wyld - First off, great post about Shane and Dale! It was a very well balanced appraisal of the strengths and weaknesses of the characters. I also loved how you compared the plot devices used around each character. Good points to ponder. Just one basic example: That barn was not exactly Fort Knoxx. What if there had been a mass breakout by zombies agitated by a living person passing close to the barn (say the woman who came to feed them semi-regularly) while Dale had the guns in the swamp and Shane was still tracking him down. No Rick, no Shane, no guns....that could have been camp-attack level of ugly. The battle of "what ifs" will never have a winner. Your point is valid. Dale took the guns and without question it could've ended badly. But Shane is responsible for many situations with equally bad "what if" scenarios. He started a gunfight outside the barn. How many bad ways could that have ended? A mass zombie attack by a wandering herd? A gun battle between Hershcel and Rick? Zombie bites all around? You could argue that had Dale successfully hidden the guns he might still be alive and the farm might be intact. Carl would not have gone off gunslinging in the woods. Zombie Shane would've been destroyed in a way that did not attract the wandering herd of zombies. I too agree that had Shane been written a bit more realistically he would've been a clear winner. But that would have to come with undoing a lot of his unstable and belligerent behaviors. And that would've made Dale less desperate to push his point of view. Ultimately it was somewhat circular the way those two dragged each other down.

[Andy]

Roaming mad dog versus deadly venomous serpent lurking in the weeds near your feet. As threats go I prefer mine overt...and as I said, had Shane been written realistically I believe it was far more likely he would've openly contested Rick's right to move in and assume command early on rather than sulk and turn would-be assassin... You mean if... it had been written more like the comics?