TWD 3x05 "Say The Word" episode discussion...**SPOILERS WITHIN**

[bassman]

I keep hearing the "we didn't see the headshot" argument around the net. We also didn't see Dale's, but nobody assumes he's stil wandering around the farm with a hole in his gut....

[Moon Knight]

I read an interview with Nicotero stating that they already saw T-Dog's corpse and they didn't need to show Lori's. He even went as far as saying that they do have some limits on how far they can go. I do agree tho, some stuff was handled poorly.

[krisvds]

I keep hearing the "we didn't see the headshot" argument around the net. We also didn't see Dale's, but nobody assumes he's stil wandering around the farm with a hole in his gut.... True. On the other hand we saw our group witnessing the Dale headshot and how they reacted to that. Lori got shot with no one around, hence all the theories. Silly though they may be I agree with the view it coud have been handled better. Had Rick found her half eaten corpse it would have been stronger: no need to actually show it, just his reaction and him going of the deep end like he did in the episode that was shot would have been better and put a stop to all these silly theories. It's not the first time the Talking Dead had to explain to fans what actually happened in the series. When a talkshow has to step in to do that you must be doing something wrong. That or there are some thick fans out there of course.

[Wyldwraith]

Simple fix if they wanted to stay symbolic, Have Rick find Lori's wedding ring. Would've fairly conclusively proven she was devoured, as a Walker would still be wearing it, and how likely is it a zombie would bite through finger bones rather than just gnaw on them like say, chicken wings? Would've given the scene an air of finality + dispelled the (now clearly unintentional) sense of ambiguity created by needing to censor Lori's remains. Hell, if they were going to go to all the trouble of having Rick dig around in Bloated Trouser-Snake Walker (tm), why not have him root around in there until he came across the ring? A round piece of metal certainly has a VASTLY different and immediately apparent tactile property than any blood, guts, flesh or even bone. Plus, it would've given that ungainly scene a reason for existing. As it was, I was like "Herschel can get bear-trapped for putting his leg in the wrong place, but Rick seems able to stroll up to semi-inactive Walkers with impunity and terminate them at his convenience." I don't think anyone is suggesting a full-corpse-reveal of Lori's disemboweled and cannibalized remains was the only means of removing the ambiguity that haunts the scene when Rick reaches the spot where Lori had been laying. For me, Carl's expression was something I was willing to take to the bank that he eyes-wide-open put a round square between his mother's eyes and MADE DAMNED SURE she wasn't going to turn. That was his stated focus, and everything from his tone, to his body language, and then finally his distant cold-eyed expression indicated he did in fact do the deed. Had he half-assed it, like pointed the gun towards her head's general direction and pulled the trigger, it a) Would've removed the entire meaning behind the flashback to Rick's speech about everyone was going to die, and that there's no way to prepare yourself for it, given back on the farm...and b) Wouldn't have left Carl with that eyes-that-have-seen-too-much look. Carl SAW his mother's brains painted all over the floor and wall. Like everyone else here I don't get what was ambiguous in that very moving and intense culmination of an already-intense scene. The ambiguity doesn't appear in any meaningful way until the next episode when Rick goes on a Walker killing spree and runs out of gas by the Walker that ate Lori's remains (the consumable parts, anyways). The 3 graves thing is a good catch. If you don't HAVE Lori's remains, and nothing of Carol besides her head-kerchief, why dig two more six-feet-deep holes. Something getting lost in editing is clearly the problem here, because Glenn was so matter-of-fact in stating they needed two more graves just like the first. Finally, and again, had they not tried to half-ass a mystery out of Carol's fate, ESPECIALLY when they intend to introduce evidence in the VERY NEXT EPISODE of Carol at least having not died anywhere near where Daryl found her head-kerchief...then it wouldn't have piled still more ambiguity into an already-hazy scene. Having had time to digest it, and with repeated viewings, I'm adamant IMO that the Carol-mystery was simply a bad call, without redeeming characteristics and at least two compelling reasons NOT TO DO IT! No weird fan theories fueled by said ambiguity, requiring the Talking Dead interview with the man himself to dispel, and as I said before it takes away from the meaning of T-Dog's hardcore sacrifice. (Yes, some might say since he was already bitten then what he did with the two Walkers that ultimately consumed him wasn't a huge sacrifice. To which I respond, T-Dog only had to die as a consequence of being bitten. He DIDN'T have to be eaten alive a mouthful at a time like he was. He knew that's what would happen to him when he grabbed those Walkers to block for Carol, and thus deserves his heroism kudos. There's that old saying, I'll paraphrase: No greater love may a man show that he lay down his life that his comrades might live. The Zombie Apocalypse Addendum to said saying: "Except allowing yourself to be eaten alive slowly so that a comrade might live." Plus, and no one's even mentioned this one. Creating the Carol-mystery INEVITABLY divided the audience's available emotions-to-be-impacted. So instead of two sharp definitive losses in T-Dog and Lori (both sharing the theme of deep self-sacrifice), audience reactions were split three ways instead of two. How could that NOT diminish the impact of Lori and T-Dog's deaths? To say nothing of the repetition. First the child, and now the mother? Maybe some, hell maybe most people didn't see a problem with leaving Carol's fate a mystery, but I've done my best here to articulate why I believe it was simply a bad call. Not bad execution, not a misunderstanding of the scripted material. Simply a bad plot element that failed to add to the whole and instead detracted from it. Nothing more, nothing less. Mistakes happen, it's not Doomsday...I just hope they tightened down on these sort of slip-ups as Season 3 progressed. Other than this episode it's been an absolutely amazing season so far, and I hope the subsequent episodes capitalize on that and simply leave this unfortunate goof behind them...well, that and get Michonne to act like a real person instead of a lightsaber-wielding trenchcoater unable to articulate the simplest of disagreements.

[krisvds]

Creating the Carol-mystery INEVITABLY divided the audience's available emotions-to-be-impacted. So instead of two sharp definitive losses in T-Dog and Lori (both sharing the theme of deep self-sacrifice), audience reactions were split three ways instead of two. How could that NOT diminish the impact of Lori and T-Dog's deaths? To say nothing of the repetition. First the child, and now the mother? Maybe some, hell maybe most people didn't see a problem with leaving Carol's fate a mystery, but I've done my best here to articulate why I believe it was simply a bad call. Not bad execution, not a misunderstanding of the scripted material. Simply a bad plot element that failed to add to the whole and instead detracted from it. Nothing more, nothing less. Mistakes happen, it's not Doomsday...I just hope they tightened down on these sort of slip-ups as Season 3 progressed. Other than this episode it's been an absolutely amazing season so far, and I hope the subsequent episodes capitalize on that and simply leave this unfortunate goof behind them...well, that and get Michonne to act like a real person instead of a lightsaber-wielding trenchcoater unable to articulate the simplest of disagreements. All of the above. Couldn't agree more. Well put Wyld.

[bassman]

What's funny is that Lori was the most widely hated character on the show and now that she's finally dead like everyone wanted, they don't want to accept it.

[Andy]

I Really hope carol is dead, i find her to be the most annoying and generally repulsive character.

[kidgloves]

Someone has transcribed the Governors diary if anyones interested. Page 1 Respond back to Anthony smith’s email… as soon as To Do – Find more eggs – Ask John. They gave you the light-bulbs, whiskey More notes on what to tell the town… they need to stay calm – Power sources, water supply remember meeting <something> mayor – 9am @ the small <something> place, <something> place around the corner to Mr. H Today made me wonder if being the governor or being the man in charge makes the people feel like they actually have someone to look up to / feel like they’re being taking care of… something <scribbles> I doubt that <scribbles> I believe I’m a good leader. Sometimes I just need to relax. I love talking about my town and supporting it just sometimes I just need to find a way to relax… like a bottle of scotch and some classic Sinatra. Plan for tomorrow… I grew up always being told to be one step ahead. myself .. <something> to never stumble. Page 2 Sanitation Garbage trucks for city (Underlined) check into hospitals – get information on superintendents of sanitation (circled) Judiciary – finalize the budget for the seconds half of the year. i.e. st. repair – road signs new pavement, etc (underlined or maybe crossed out) laws cancelled due to primary legislation Guards – crime has increased 20@. I want my town to be completely crime free. update police enforcement new cars? enforce more public security Food rationing Prices on various types of food increased 40% HOPES of decreasing at least (circled) 20% of threat inflation within the next year. Activities – Get ideas form towns people town meeting to be held every Thursday evening GOALS TO BE ACCOMPLISHED tighter community ideas for future events Hearings: trial about sanitation laws. Occurs Thursday (circled) Page 3 – Names Brian, Bobby, Nick, Alice, Susan, David, Emily, Brandon, Jennifer, Zachary, Alyssa, Drew, Taylor, Melissa, Holly, Johnathan, Richard, Keith, Leah, Elliot, Patrick, Elizabeth, Penny (bold and underlined)

[rongravy]

Ehhhhhh, I don't see how people could get confused on the Lori deal, although I found it hard to believe there was nothing left of her. A found ring would've been better than the bullet. Guess some people need it all spelled out for them.

[Tricky]

Just saw this episode, as with the rest of this season so far I really enjoyed it and there is a huge amount of tension bubbling away there. Rick has gone over the edge, and Daryl is proving to be the man who can really get things done, as well as showing a much softer side to his previous stone cold self, but which brother will survive the inevitable stand off between him & Merle? We all know its coming eventually and don't have the comics to offer a rough guide on what will become of either character... The Lori corpse thing does seem a bit odd, I can accept that the walker(s) could have stripped her flesh away fairly quickly, but what about the bones? My Staffordshire Bull Terrier with his powerful jaws & sharp teeth has been grinding away at a cows knee joint every day for the past 4 weeks and still hasn't got anywhere near through it, so even with the suspended belief required for a zombie show, it still seems ridiculous that there was nothing left of Lori in such a short space of time but a blood trail and a single zombie with a bloated gut. Something doesn't ring true there, and it would be a far better conclusion for me if later in the season we saw a Lori zombie in a similar badly mauled and almost skeletal state to the bicycle girl one from the season 1 first episode. *edit - and speaking of homages and guest appearances, I saw Motorhead last week and they were supported by Anthrax, whose guitarist Scott Ian had a cameo as a zombie in TWD season 2 ScottIan.jpg

[MinionZombie]

Greg Nicotero has answered some questions regarding this episode: http://dailydead.com/interview-greg-...-episode-3-05/ What Happened to Carol?: Since Greg Nicotero directed the episode, I thought this would be a great chance to get more details on Carol, Lori, and Daryl. The biggest question we’ve been seeing about this episode is: “What happened to Carol?” In episode 3.04, we see T-Dog save her and she goes outside into the prison courtyard. All they find is a scarf at the end, but we see a grave in 3.05. Did they find her body? Greg Nicotero: “Well, you know, one of the challenging things about episode four was that she disappears. They find part of her clothing, but they’ve never found her. They’ve never really found Lori’s body; you just see sort of the remnants of the blood drag. So, as far as everyone knows, Carol has suffered the same fate as everyone else, but that will be revealed shortly.” The cast and crew have talked about the audience knowing more than the characters in the past. This is the case in Woodbury, where we all know that something is wrong with The Governor and the rest of the characters aren’t aware. Obviously, Rick and the group are traumatized by the loss of T-Dog and Lori, and it sounds like they only assumed Carol was eaten. ——— Did the Zombie Eat All of Lori?: Speaking of zombies completely eating bodies, we’ve seen some readers say that the zombie couldn’t have eaten all of Lori, including her bones. However, I’ve been told that she wasn’t completely eaten. We just weren’t shown the body: Greg Nicotero: ”The idea is supposed to be that the walker has sort of dragged her around the corner of that boiler room. There’s actually a blood trail that continues past the walker and goes around the corner. Some of the little touches we added was there was bits of hair in its mouth and hair in his hand when it reaches up towards Rick. And it was just one of those things that we really wanted to show that this thing had feasted on her, as horrible as it is.” He went on to mention that they didn’t want seeing her eaten body to take away from the impact of her death in the previous episode: Greg Nicotero: ”We didn’t want to take away from [her death]. The interesting thing about T-Dog’s death in episode four was it was really heroic. We really went to great lengths to make sure that his death had meaning and her death also had meaning. It was important to Sarah [Wayne Callies] that the baby survived and was one of the first things that came up when the idea of her death was discussed. In keeping the emotional resonance of Lori’s death, there are some boundaries. You may not believe it, but there are a few boundaries here and there on The Walking Dead that we want to preserve.” ——— Why Didn’t Daryl Talk More About Carol?: With Daryl and Carol being so close, we were surprised that the episode didn’t spend more time with him discussing her death. So much went on at the Prison and Woodbury this episode, and we discovered that there were extra scenes with Daryl on the cutting room floor: Greg Nicotero: ”One of the things about this episode is that it’s really dense. There’s so much material to talk about and there was one scene we shot that I love and sadly didn’t make the final cut. Daryl and Maggie are driving to the daycare and the road is blocked by an overturned tree, so they stop. Maggie starts to break down and Daryl says “was she dead?” Daryl doesn’t know what happened Lori, and Maggie says that she had to cut her open. Then Maggie looks at Daryl and she says “oh my God, I’m so sorry about Carol” and the look on his face is like he got punched in the stomach. He says that baby gave her so much hope. Carol’s death really pushes Daryl forward, and unfortunately, it’s not in the episode, but hopefully it’ll be on the DVD.” The fact that they're having to answer these sorts of questions shows that there has been a couple of problems with this episode - trying to cram too much into a single script, deleted scenes holding content that is necessary, problems regarding coverage of scenes to fully inform the viewer, and plot holes (in particular the grave digging). Traumatised or not, I would have thought someone - at least one - person would wonder "WHERE is Carol's body? What IF she's trapped?" ... it's slightly awkward in a way, but I can let that one go ... the grave digging is still a decided lapse in logic though.

[Buzzbomb]

I really like TWD and so far the third series has been amazing... but how come there's 3 apparently filled graves in Darryl's scene near the end of 3x05 but then in the next shot Rick is shown still in the prison with Lori's remains presumably 'round the corner? I guess I only have 3 days, 4 hours left to go to (possibly) find out what happened to Carol... I'd swear she was wearing her scarf when she left the building, so perhaps she had to make a swift re-entry & lost it then? Also did anyone notice how in the intro scene how Milton was given two cold drinks without having to say a word? The bloke behind him was just given one... Can't wait 'till Friday... Cheers Buzzbomb

[AcesandEights]

Also did anyone notice how in the intro scene how Milton was given two cold drinks without having to say a word? The bloke behind him was just given one... Those bastards! Can't wait 'till Friday... Enjoy and let us know what you think after you've gotten a chance to check it out.