TWD 3x06 "Hounded" episode discussion...**SPOILERS WITHIN**

[kidgloves]

I hope your right Wyld. I find myself particularly torn with how I feel about Laurie Holden/Andrea. On a base level she's extremely attractive to me. A quirky looking but beautiful woman. There's just something I've noticed since season 1, that Jon has highlighted, is her choice of physical acting to portray Andrea. IF that is a conscious choice by the creative team its been going on since the beginning. In the comic she's a very one note character. She's good with a gun and errrrrrrrm that's about it. That has changed recently due to current events but up until then she was just a cool kickass character. In the TV show her character is all over the place and im also finding it very difficult to work out whether its down to the writers or actress. Hopefully its down to some master plan as you say and not down to incompetence and bad execution.

[Wyldwraith]

Oh I'm not by any stretch of the imagination ruling out bad execution, I'm simply RULING IN the notion that said execution could more believably be a result of the script/direction given the actress, than a deficit in her ability to portray a well-rounded believable character in the situation the characters find themselves within. As one of the few "Transitioning Characters"...Ie: Characters whose marked rapid changes are supposed to be noticeable and describe a sort of characterization-narrative of their own, Andrea becomes the exception in that in addition to being part of this minority of rapidly-changing characters, she's been UNIQUE this season in having to deal with radical changes in her environment as well. Yes, the others found/occupied the prison, but they did it acting as part of a practiced, habitual, well-honed group dynamic in which each person clearly understood their place. Then, pairing Andrea with a Michonne that has yet to take on a believably defined shape, amidst all these layers of deceit, self-deception and otherwise...it's like putting brick after brick in the actress's backpack and then wondering why she doesn't float as well as the others if u throw them all in the water. The remainder of the cast don't labor under a THIRD the challenges that the Andrea character is part of, and many of the challenges the actors of other characters ARE faced with are situations/ground very similar to things already done earlier in the show. Andrew Lincoln's time as solo Rick was FAR more defined, because just as one knows a ball tossed upwards will begin to fall downwards eventually, the viewers (including those like myself who knew nothing about the comic version of TWD) understood 100% that Rick's singleminded hunt for Lori & Carl would be successful. So it's not a true parallel to Andrea's time alone in Woodbury, because there's no inevitable demanded-by-show-logistics certainty of where she must end up. In Rick's case, it was quite clear he was THE or at least A main character during his solo time, so while he might traverse challenges and experience setbacks, it was understood where his narrative-trajectory would eventually deposit him. The Andrea character lacks any such impetus. Further, with the series trying to be so secretive in revealing the Governor's antics and Woodbury's true nature one slow piece at a time, there's little for a viewer to piece together in the way of expectations as to how "Andrea really SHOULD BE handling" the events transpiring in Woodbury. Couple this with the VERY CLEAR MISTAKE of the ultimatum-scene where Michonne just heads off alone (Which essentially was used as little more than convenient logistics to bring what little remains of Rick & Co. up to speed about the Governor/Woodbury etc), the fact the writers and directors are as deliberately trying to make Andrea appear as a gullible, self-centered blind little snarky bitch as they were deliberate in showing the end result of say, Shane's madness...and I'm left to wonder if it's even HUMANLY POSSIBLE that given the script, that Andrea appear likable/somewhat the viewers could relate with/root for at this time? I had to do some serious reworking of how I thought about TWD characters after Season 2. Unlike most other shows I've ever been a fan of, the writing/directing influence is something felt DIRECTLY by the fans as something akin to fate for the characters. Ie: If they want you to perceive someone as a madman, a madman they shall be. If instead they want a deeply conflicted, at war with himself over pragmatic needs but ultimately a heroic and decent figure, then that's what you get. There isn't much ambiguity in how one can read main characters. Which is why (I think at least), they work so hard on injecting that ambiguity instead into situations and supporting one-off characters the main characters encounter/face. Just my .02, your value may vary.

[Buzzbomb]

...I think zombies shouldn't be privy to super senses in "death", that were denied to them in life. The idea that something could smell another thing because it doesn't stink of death is absurd. The "stinkier" smell of the rotting corpses would mask the "cleaner" smell of the humans anyway, regardless of whether the victim had guts splashed over them or not.... I don't think the walkers would notice their own smell, the same way we don't (usually) notice our own. I can suspend disbelief that the vomit inducing stench of death would act as a kind of deodorant, masking the survivors own smell of sweat & soap... We'll have to agree to disagree on that one, but I'd that agree that super senses, and other athletic super-powers (not to mention instant decay), are lazy cop-outs, that usually detract from the genre.

[shootemindehead]

I just think that it's an unnecessary and stupid addition that doesn't make any logical sense. I let it go because the series is generally great. To me though, it's almost in the run around zombie category. I'm dead, now I can smell better than ever! Or I'm dead, now I can run the 4 minute mile! The instant decay thing is nuts as well, I can't stand that either.

[MinionZombie]

I just think that it's an unnecessary and stupid addition that doesn't make any logical sense. I let it go because the series is generally great. To me though, it's almost in the run around zombie category. I'm dead, now I can smell better than ever! Or I'm dead, now I can run the 4 minute mile! The instant decay thing is nuts as well, I can't stand that either. 1) If they were working on normal human smell abilities, it would still be iffy as surely it'd be down to the difference in stink ... but zombies reek of decay and loose bowels, unlike humans (even if they're sweaty and haven't showered in weeks), so yeah, the 'science' behind it isn't exactly convincing. Like you though, I can let that go as the sheer quality of everything else is so good. 2) Fortunately that's something we don't have to deal with in TWD. Their levels of decay are very intelligent ... indeed there was a very fresh-looking lady zombie in 3x07 as part of the crowd near the shack, as well as some proper gnarly ones. Nice that there's a mixture, and it's a nice little touch that tells the story of different people dying at different times.

[JonOfTheShred]

the fact the writers and directors are as deliberately trying to make Andrea appear as a gullible, self-centered blind little snarky bitch as they were deliberate in showing the end result of say, Shane's madness...and I'm left to wonder if it's even HUMANLY POSSIBLE that given the script, that Andrea appear likable/somewhat the viewers could relate with/root for at this time? You might be on to something, Wyldwraith. The caricature I'm describing, that Andrea has been pigeon-holed into....the same caricature Sonya Blade character from the Mortal Kombat web series I mentioned in another thread was also pigeon-holed into as well.....that caricature has only successfully worked ONE TIME that I can remember. And that was Agent Stahl in Sons of Anarchy. What a brilliant actress she was. It was a treat to see (SPOILER) Opie kill her after all the stuff Stahl had fucked up in her time on the show.(/SPOILER) Agent Stahl, to me, is the peak of "Snarky bitch" attitude that works really fucking well in the TV context. But she was a villain, and we were meant to hate her character. The actress actually got death threats in real life, people hated the character THAT BAD. That's some powerful acting. I thought she did a brilliant job of portraying a sociopath, power hungry agent. I never even considered that maybe the writers of Walking Dead are intentionally making Andrea a dis-likable character in the show to set her up for some ridiculous retribution later, or perhaps even to be Governors queen and antagonist for Rick and co. But maybe she'll save Daryls life from Merle or something to make up for almost killing him in Season 2, and for her horrible behavior throughout the series. Who knows? As it stands, my favorite female character is Maggie, and it's not just because she's very friendly on the eyes, or because I'd challenge Glenn to a fist fight to the death in a steel cage for her heart. I think the actress portraying her is doing a great job. I'd like Beth more if she had more characterization beyond the whole "SMILE GOOFILY AT CARL, RINSE, REPEAT" thing, which is getting old real fast. (Good for Carl, though.) I actually like Carol too, even though they kind of handled her whole "Disappear" thing kind of lamely. Hell, I even started to feel bad for Lori in Season 3, especially during her final scene; that shit was pretty intense. Amazing how they were able to make a character 99.99% of the viewers hated and give her one of the most effective death scenes in the shows history. I also think Michonne is being portrayed pretty close to the comic - she's a bit over-the-top spiteful in some of her scenes, and should "lighten up" a little, but I expect that to happen in the second half of Season 3. Remember, that's exactly how she was in the comic book for a long time. Hell, she barely EVER opens up in the comic, maybe the show Michonne can have even more depth than her comic book counterpart. But Andrea...oh Andrea. Even before Amy died Andrea was a bitch. Remember her flipping out on Rick from her very first scene? And just being a stuck up bitch in general from then on? She stood up for Carol with the abusive husband, sure, but that's the extent of her doing ANYTHING NICE for the group. That and catching fish with Amy. Amy was kind of lame too, that actress was very weird, spoke really awkwardly, like out of the side of her face or something. She didn't exactly have time to grow on the show, though. And to be fair, it doesn't help that Andrea looks strikingly similar to an ex-GF of mine that played head games for a number of years, something a friend of mine pointed out to me after I went on an Andrea rant. Let's hope they can turn Andreas character around and make her interesting. As it stands, Andrea reminds me of Donna from the comics more than any other character. And the actress portraying her seems to have taken notes from Agent Stahl of Sons of Anarchy. Coincidentally, Donna redeemed herself in the comic by being happy for Andrea and Dales unorthodox relationship.

[mista_mo]

I dont find Andrea that attractive. There is just something off about her face...it looks smooshed, like her skull was forced through a printing press when she was born. Yuck.

[ProfessorChaos]

But Andrea...oh Andrea. Even before Amy died Andrea was a bitch. Remember her flipping out on Rick from her very first scene? And just being a stuck up bitch in general from then on? She stood up for Carol with the abusive husband, sure, but that's the extent of her doing ANYTHING NICE for the group. That and catching fish with Amy. Amy was kind of lame too, that actress was very weird, spoke really awkwardly, like out of the side of her face or something. She didn't exactly have time to grow on the show, though. And to be fair, it doesn't help that Andrea looks strikingly similar to an ex-GF of mine that played head games for a number of years, something a friend of mine pointed out to me after I went on an Andrea rant. Let's hope they can turn Andreas character around and make her interesting. As it stands, Andrea reminds me of Donna from the comics more than any other character. And the actress portraying her seems to have taken notes from Agent Stahl of Sons of Anarchy. Coincidentally, Donna redeemed herself in the comic by being happy for Andrea and Dales unorthodox relationship. yeah, i was actually thinking the other day that they should have had the actress who played amy cast as andrea, and found some younger girl to play amy. i think it would've been a much better representation of the character from the comics, not only in looks, but age, attitude, etc. hard to believe they could fuck up a character so badly. the andrea from the show is worthless. like you said, her debut scene had her pointing a gun at rick's face, then she wanted to just "opt out" at the CDC, she acted like a total cunt to lori about how she provided "security" around the farm (like the time she almost took daryl's head off), then allowing beth to try and kill herself and her nonchalant attitude towards maggie about the whole thing, refusing to listen to michonne and staying at woodbury for the whiskey and sex.....ugh. the list of andrea's fails goes on and on. the only worthwhile scenes she's been in throughout two and a half seasons is when she had to put amy down (that was a pretty damn good scene, probably one of the best in the series thus far) and the ones where she's showing lots of skin while living it up in the governor's love-shack. i'd seriously be cheering if they just killed her off. out of all the character's who've died, i'd gladly have any one of them still around in place of andrea. her character is beyond the point of saving, in my opinion.

[Neil]

like her skull was forced through a printing press when she was born. Yuck. Slightly harsh don't you think?

[shootemindehead]

I dont find Andrea that attractive... You and me both Mo. She's a bit of a woof.

[JonOfTheShred]

Pace is still really moving along. Glenn and Maggie now captive at Woodbury. Andrea spreading her legs for "Phillip." Michonne shot and wounded, found her way to the prison. Rick went through his entire "insanity phase" in the space of an episode, getting closure from that final telephone call. (Brushing side that arc instead of focusing on it kinda makes sense.) And Carol discovered by Daryl. I wonder if...   Maggie is going to replace Michonne as the torture victim at Woodbury? And Glenn would go into a rage? Perhaps Rick and Co. will go after them instead of the other way around, this time, attacking the governments place as 'the savages' to get their friends back? Although their numbers certainly aren't strong at all. Looks like my prediction was 100% correct. I was just reading through my old posts and noticed I had predicted the mid-season finale, nice! Not that it was all that difficult to figure out

[Wyldwraith]

With much more into-season-three knowledge, I have to say that, IMHO at least, my theory that it's the scriptwriting at fault for the downswing in likeability, realism etc...of several characters, notably Andrea but Rick is getting his fair share of it, plus Glenn/Maggie... I find it difficult to bust the actor/actress's chops when the words literally put in their mouths, and the directing literally controlling their body movements via blocking results in a stupid, puerile, and infuriatingly frustrating dive in the quality of this or that character's behavior. Andrea's "Inspiring Speech" in Woodbury....my God, as others have made the comparison...it's 5x worse than Bill Pullman's "Our Independence Day" speech in Independence Day right before the big aerial battle versus the mothership. That's really saying something! To me, this issue isn't nitpicking. Making characters unlikable shatters our desire to root for their survival and success in the zombie apocalypse...and caring about the protagonists is an absolute, no possible argument to the contrary, story element of any zombie movie/TV show that aspires to more than 80s camp-schlock gore. We know Andrew Lincoln is a good actor, so this half of the season the irritating traits/behaviors he's exhibiting in high-school-level melodramatic fashion must, AGAIN, be laid at the doorstep of those truly responsible. The writers, and whoever is pulling their strings from AMC. The same holds true for Holden. That actress PROVED she's 10x better than her absolute best-moment-to-date in TWD, while acting in The Mist. Yes, they're different cinematic environments...but not so different that an actress capable of nuanced performance would, episode after episode, be responsible for her character being a one-note/no dimension being..that's maddeningly irritating, gullible when convenient..and so all-over-the-place in her motivations/convictions as to be comparable to a schizophrenic in full-blown crisis. Or, to use The Mist another way. Look at her WORST moments in that movie. You'll find even her worst there has been better than her best in TWD. If that's not a persuasive argument that it's the writing/directing at the heart of the ass-hattery and douchebaggedness of some characters this season, I don't know what could convince someone. TWD writers need to take a deep breath and mentally return to the detail and nuance of Season 1 if they wish to halt this downward spiral. This IS something that while annoying now, COULD ultimately sink the show over time. So yes, I feel the issue of who/what is causing the poorer performances by various members of the cast this season a very serious issue.